Very difficult situation with music producer in Dublin - any advice appreciated

Denalihighway

will try to make this brief as possible. Basically...posting here as a last resort before going into a legal situation. Looking to see if anyone has had similar experiences and any joy in sorting it out?

Our band agreed an album deal (verbal agreement only unfortunately, but it's not disputed, it’s in emails also) with a producer for engineering, editing and mixing. Mastering was included originally but in fairness we had decided we would go to professional suite so basically deal was for engineering, editing and mixing.

Things went wrong fairly quick, to sum it up, he wanted to do things all his own way and ignore our wishes. Huge technical errors and bizarre techniques, massive tension and wholly unacceptable and quite frankly astounding unprofessionalism. To much to go into. Clearly, you have to take my word for this, but my word is my bond and there is plenty of previous as I've found out since.

Unfortunately at a relatively early stage we had paid up in full. Naive of course but we had our reasons at the time. We were led to believe we were keeping the studio afloat basically. Coincidentally soon after we were paid up in full the sessions got more and more infrequent and more and more shambolic. Questioning any of this, as always, brought huge arguments and tension. We just put our heads down and tried to ignore everything and get it done. Easier said than done but we got it done.

one and a half years later after an unbelievably difficult period of recording, we were waiting on mixes for half the songs since we had abandoned the b-sides to try to get the bloody thing over the line and relieve some of the pressure. Despite the original agreement, we would have been happy to let that slide if he came through with the other stuff. We waited 4 months of sending him the odd email to see what was happening, trying to avoid arguments etc, letting him get on with it. Nothing. Was greeted with usual lecture down the phone when I eventually asked what the hell was taking so long. “You’re so ungrateful…etc” Insane stuff. We then received some mixes which were just a joke really.

Turns out, after a year and a half, the guy decided we needed to do MORE recording. We knew this was unnecessary and felt that the guy was basically losing the plot a bit. At this stage we could barely look at the guy nevermind work with him again but again we were open to doing whatever might finish it.

More nasty rows, delays, discussions, abuse, and we finally decided to do what we probably should have done a year ago. Not only had we abandoned half the project but it was clear that what we did have wasn't going to happen, ever. We pulled the plug and got the master files. Other professionals I’d been consulting along the way had told us to do this ages ago but we were determined to try to make it work and also, we had paid up front and knew that we would probably be in a battle if we were the ones to pull out.

Just to kind of prove a little of what I'm claiming, we brought the mixes to another reputable mix engineer. The mixes were in a jock but the lads took no time (about 2 weeks) in going back to the project files and getting our first mixes across according to our guidelines and discussions. Finally we had found some professionals and what a relief it was. If I didn't realise what a disaster the first project was now, the pleasure of working with the new guys has slammed it home.

The Crux of this 'ere matter
So having not been in contact for a couple of months and collecting our thoughts, I approached the original guy to try to see if he could refund us just some of our money on the basis that the project was unworkable, and that he hadn’t completed even close to what he agreed to do (IE we only had half the songs originally agreed which were unedited, unmixed and unmastered). Also we now had additional costs to cover for our new mixing engineers. Double whammy.

Basically as far as we are concerned, he reneged on an agreement, by turning the project in to an unworkable disaster which was shambolic on professional and personal levels and of course, by not being able to complete what was agreed.

Also, if you knew what we had to put up with while making the record (which I have neither the time nor inclination to get into), you would realise why I think this is reasonable.

By email, I suggested a figure (which is approx half of the cost to get the stuff mixed, with mastering costs not included). The money will help but to be honest its more about the principle now.

Since then I have emailed him and txtd him several times, sent him a letter and spoken on the phone. He acknowledges receipt of all these but is point blank refusing to get into dialogue by email. There’s a very good reason for this as far as I can see.

He asked me to come down to the studio to discuss it. Sorry, but as I pointed out, I’ve been there and done that and can do without being berated and having irrational and incoherent accusations flown at me. Email seems very fair to everyone surely? No one can hide and everything is traceable. I assume that’s what he’s worried about. I’ve appealed to him to at least open up some dialogue.

No dice. He seems to relish going legal in fact.

The last thing anyone needs in legal stuff but I feel I don’t have any choice at this stage.

Any thoughts? Any pearls of wisdom you’d be willing to share after experiences?

Feel free to ask questions, I’ve nothing to hide but as you can imagine its quite sensitive. There’ll be no naming and shaming etc.

Many thanks and sorry for the biggest OP in the history of Boards but its hard to summarise…

Savman

Tough one to call, it's a professional disagreement between two parties and if it ended up before a judge it's impossible to say for sure which way it would swing.

Bear in mind the cost of going legal might not be worth your while unless your talking a considerable amount of money at stake. The guy will be entitled to defend himself and could probably paint a pretty grim picture of you/your band and how difficult you were to work with. Very very slippery slope tbh. If his work was not up to standard the judge might decide that you should have properly screened this before laying down any funds so, in a roundabout way, you were partly responsible for this mess due to your own negligence.

Disclaimer: no advice given on boards can be taken as legal, please take opinions at face value and consult a solicitor if you feel you have a case.

Perhaps there's a better forum for this discussion rather than Bands & Musicians who are inevitably going to side with the artist.

So, to summarize, I haven't a clue what to suggest other than to speak to a solicitor.

ebaysellerrob

how much did you pay ???

Denalihighway

Savman wrote: »

Tough one to call, it's a professional disagreement between two parties and if it ended up before a judge it's impossible to say for sure which way it would swing.

Bear in mind the cost of going legal might not be worth your while unless your talking a considerable amount of money at stake. The guy will be entitled to defend himself and could probably paint a pretty grim picture of you/your band and how difficult you were to work with. Very very slippery slope tbh. If his work was not up to standard the judge might decide that you should have properly screened this before laying down any funds so, in a roundabout way, you were partly responsible for this mess due to your own negligence.

Disclaimer: no advice given on boards can be taken as legal, please take opinions at face value and consult a solicitor if you feel you have a case.

Perhaps there's a better forum for this discussion rather than Bands & Musicians who are inevitably going to side with the artist.

So, to summarize, I haven't a clue what to suggest other than to speak to a solicitor.

I hear ya completely.

Regarding the thread placement, I just didn't see a more relevant one as although it involves a producer, it is a musicians issue.

We know the way it works anyway, the producers will be over giving their 2 cents in no time, very welcome to also. I've nothing to hide.

Not looking for legal advice at all btw folks, just wondering if there were any other tactics employed that avoided legal crap. Haven't a clue what that might be but thought there was no harm in asking.

Denalihighway

ebaysellerrob wrote: »

how much did you pay ???

A lot for an unknown producer and independent band...

Savman

Denalihighway wrote: »

A lot for an unknown producer and independent band...

Give us a ballpark idea? It's kinda relevant seeing as you have a financial decision to make. I'm sure the exact terminology but AFAIK you would be taking a case against him for negligence, breach of contract or something to that effect. I'd imagine Solicitor's fees for something like this won't be friendly but that's definitely the first port of call.

Legal stuff can get dragged out for a long time with adjournments and whatnot, so there comes a time where you have to cut your losses, write it off as a bad debt and chalk it down as experience.

Suppose you are a few €k out of pocket now so it feels like a bitch but going to court should be last resort. Paying the full amount up front was pretty naive IMHO, 50% would have been fair with the remainder at a later agreed date. But alas hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Obsius

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Get_Your_Rights/Going_To_Court_Guide/

This is the direction you should most likely take at this stage, or at least let the "producer" know that this is what you plan to do.

As the info in the link explains, this is fast and cheap way of bringing a case against him without the need for a solicitor. You may not even have to go to court to settle. However, the maximum claim you can make is €2,000.

Savman

Obsius wrote: »

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Get_Your_Rights/Going_To_Court_Guide/

This is the direction you should most likely take at this stage, or at least let the "producer" know that this is what you plan to do.

As the info in the link explains, this is fast and cheap way of bringing a case against him without the need for a solicitor. You may not even have to go to court to settle. However, the maximum claim you can make is €2,000.

Incorrect. The OP is not considered a "consumer" in this instance, this would be viewed as a business to business transaction.

To be eligible to use the Small Claims Court

• You have to be a consumer - i.e. you have to have bought goods or services for private use, and from someone selling them in the course of business. The procedure is not available for use by one business person against another, or if you received the goods or services as a gift

Disctrict court beckons.

Denalihighway

Savman wrote: »

Give us a ballpark idea? It's kinda relevant seeing as you have a financial decision to make. I'm sure the exact terminology but AFAIK you would be taking a case against him for negligence, breach of contract or something to that effect. I'd imagine Solicitor's fees for something like this won't be friendly but that's definitely the first port of call.

Legal stuff can get dragged out for a long time with adjournments and whatnot, so there comes a time where you have to cut your losses, write it off as a bad debt and chalk it down as experience.

Suppose you are a few €k out of pocket now so it feels like a bitch but going to court should be last resort. Paying the full amount up front was pretty naive IMHO, 50% would have been fair with the remainder at a later agreed date. But alas hindsight is a wonderful thing.

yep hindsight is 20/20...like I said at the time we were led to believe we were floating the studio by paying. Believe me, this seemed very believable at the time. No studio=no album, paying upfront=trouble. Major Catch 22...would never do anything like that again.

the amount is in 5 figures since you're curious.

to be honest the Small Claims Court is what I imagined, just to get it over with quick and nasty. But we leave ourselves open to whatever counterclaims he can concoct obviously. Anyone who's watched Judged Judy can see that you only have a few mins to make your case...one foul move and that beeatch of a judge is all over ya

regular court just seems like trouble and hassle given the amount I'd settle for.

EDIT - JUST READ YOUR BIT ABOUT US NOT BEING ELIGIBLE FOR SCC

you're sure about this?

Savman

Actually neither SCC nor District Court will hear this consdering the amount.

The District Court can hear cases

• in contract generally where the claim does not exceed 6,348.69 euro

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/courts-system/district_court_civil_juris

So it's Circuit Court AFAIK.

Savman

Or maybe not :eek:

The High Court is the appropriate court to hear cases involving claims for damages in excess of 38,092.14 euro.

Denalihighway

gotta head for good while, no more posting from me until later, just so yiz know like...

wobbles-grogan

It wasn't really a catch 22 situation.

There was clearly a reason the studio was going under....

In this situation, i'd cut my losses and run and let any and everyone you can know about the thief, cos lets be honest, that's what this "producer" is...

Ash.J.Williams

Replies such as "the legal route will cost you" "the judge could see it either way" are why this country is f**ed up.....if you feel that you have been wronged, get proper advice and nail that producer to the wall and get your money back...people like that should be put out of business....


Go and see him as requested but make sure to record every word of it, you'd be surprised at what he'l say off the record!

Savman

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Replies such as "the legal route will cost you" "the judge could see it either way" are why this country is f**ed up....

Eh? Simple statements of truth (bleeding obvious tbh).

Go and see him as requested but make sure to record every word of it, you'd be surprised at what he'l say off the record!

That'll most likely be inadmissable.

KeithTS

I'm a little confused, the deal was for everything exluding the studio?
So the five figures you paid was soley for the studio time?

Based on that, even if you had signed a contract, that money was to be fronted by you, therfore it's your reponsiblity to pay it whether you are happy with the end product or not.

If you are unhappy with the studio then take it up with the house engineers/owners but if it's the people provided by this so called producer you are unhappy with then studio you recorded in has no bearing on that and still needs to be paid.

I hope it all works out for you guys, the so called industry over here already has a rubbish reputation as it is, the last thing it needs is more bands getting fu**ed over like this.

drumdrum

Unfortunately dude, legally I dont think you really have a leg to stand on what with there not being a formal contract layed out. Talk to a solicitor to get a proper answer, but as far as Im aware if there is no contract its your word against his and as Savman says, its a messy situation to get into.

Laying down a 5 figure sum for anything really should be investigated thoroughly before you spend it. I mean, if your buying a car you vet your interest first, test drive it, read reviews on it etc.
For studios it should be treated as such.

A great guide I always go by is to take a similar bands CD/song and use it as a reference for studios so that they know the sound you want. Saying "oh I want a big sound with huge guitars" could mean very different things to different engineers so a basis is usually good. For example say Im a metal band I might use a Slipknot CD as a reference if I want a similar sound. Just be realistic though.....these huge bands spend thousands in top-line studios so suss out if your €300 per day studio can attain a similar sound.
More importantly, any studio you approach ALWAYS ask them for a demo of a similar genre band that they have done. Then either approach the band directly via Facebook or Myspace and suss out the place if your spending big bucks on the place.
Didnt meant to "preach" there, but I only included this for any younger band that might be reading this.

I had a very similar experience to you OP a few years back, although for alot less money... it was for an EP. I didnt vett the place properly, took the engineers word as gospel and came out with a sub-par product. Of course I was unhappy but after contacting him about it he said that his end of the bargain had been upheld as he went on to record other bands.


Like myself, I would chalk this up to experience.....as much as that may hurt right now. In time, when album 2 is on the way (;)) Ive no doubt that this experience will stand to you and the next time will be a much better situation for you.
I feel for you OP.......I really do!

EDIT: Could you maybe name the engineer / studio that caused you this grief, just so the rest of us know who to avoid?

Splinters

I agree, in a case as extreme as this I think it should definately be a name and shame situation. It sounds as if hes put you through a fairly epic ordeal and it'd be unfortunate if somebody else had to endure the same.

Denalihighway

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

It wasn't really a catch 22 situation.

There was clearly a reason the studio was going under....

In this situation, i'd cut my losses and run and let any and everyone you can know about the thief, cos lets be honest, that's what this "producer" is...

great advice. thanks. Why didn't you just say "ah...feck it, just let him trample all over you"

then he can do the same to some more people after me..

Denalihighway

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Replies such as "the legal route will cost you" "the judge could see it either way" are why this country is f**ed up.....if you feel that you have been wronged, get proper advice and nail that producer to the wall and get your money back...people like that should be put out of business....


Go and see him as requested but make sure to record every word of it, you'd be surprised at what he'l say off the record!

I think its fair enough to point out how much the legal route will cost me. I've already weighed up the advantages of a long drawn out/expensive legal battle with the prospect of small winning against just naming and shaming him

and as for visiting him...I obviously don't seem to have properly illustrated what this guy is like...nothing, absolutely nothing will be achieved by it. In fact, it can only do harm.

Denalihighway

KeithTS wrote: »

I'm a little confused, the deal was for everything exluding the studio?
So the five figures you paid was soley for the studio time?

Based on that, even if you had signed a contract, that money was to be fronted by you, therfore it's your reponsiblity to pay it whether you are happy with the end product or not.

If you are unhappy with the studio then take it up with the house engineers/owners but if it's the people provided by this so called producer you are unhappy with then studio you recorded in has no bearing on that and still needs to be paid.

I hope it all works out for you guys, the so called industry over here already has a rubbish reputation as it is, the last thing it needs is more bands getting fu**ed over like this.

what did you mean by "the deal was for everything excl studio"? Confused

I said the deal was for engineering, editing, mixing and mastering. Why is it my responsibility to pay for a product that wasn't delivered?

confused...

Denalihighway

drumdrum wrote: »

Unfortunately dude, legally I dont think you really have a leg to stand on what with there not being a formal contract layed out. Talk to a solicitor to get a proper answer, but as far as Im aware if there is no contract its your word against his and as Savman says, its a messy situation to get into.

Laying down a 5 figure sum for anything really should be investigated thoroughly before you spend it. I mean, if your buying a car you vet your interest first, test drive it, read reviews on it etc.
For studios it should be treated as such.

A great guide I always go by is to take a similar bands CD/song and use it as a reference for studios so that they know the sound you want. Saying "oh I want a big sound with huge guitars" could mean very different things to different engineers so a basis is usually good. For example say Im a metal band I might use a Slipknot CD as a reference if I want a similar sound. Just be realistic though.....these huge bands spend thousands in top-line studios so suss out if your €300 per day studio can attain a similar sound.
More importantly, any studio you approach ALWAYS ask them for a demo of a similar genre band that they have done. Then either approach the band directly via Facebook or Myspace and suss out the place if your spending big bucks on the place.
Didnt meant to "preach" there, but I only included this for any younger band that might be reading this.

I had a very similar experience to you OP a few years back, although for alot less money... it was for an EP. I didnt vett the place properly, took the engineers word as gospel and came out with a sub-par product. Of course I was unhappy but after contacting him about it he said that his end of the bargain had been upheld as he went on to record other bands.


Like myself, I would chalk this up to experience.....as much as that may hurt right now. In time, when album 2 is on the way (;)) Ive no doubt that this experience will stand to you and the next time will be a much better situation for you.
I feel for you OP.......I really do!

EDIT: Could you maybe name the engineer / studio that caused you this grief, just so the rest of us know who to avoid?

Not sure if you read the OP but the verbal contract is not in dispute...I have emails confirming this, and the guy has never denied it.

Its quite normal to forward an advance before the work is completed, and , again, if you read the thread, I VERY much regret paying the complete amount up front (I think that's quite obvious). I've said numerous times we were naive but we are where we are now

...but it wasn't altogether straightforward. Although slow, tedious, and incredibly difficult, we were still making progress at the time and had reason to believe it would be seen out. Although we were concerned, in fairness to us we still had no idea how much the wheels would come off.

Denalihighway

@Splinters & @Drumdrum

as I said, its not the time for naming and shaming but I won't be afraid to do it when the time is right. He doesn't seem to give a monkeys about this so I will duly oblige in due course. I've given him a deadline to sort this out in a reasonable manner so after then we can name and shame...no qualms whatsoever about that.

Savman

Steady, you can't name and shame. Libel...

I fear this thread may not last long and to be honest I don't think it serves the OP's best interest having this discussion here on a forum widely used in Ireland. Genuinely, consult a good expert in the legal field and build your case that way because it wouldn't take much cop on for the guy to find this thread/forum and with the amount at stake I'd not take the chance giving him any further ammunition.

I would imagine if you take it the whole way you would need to call in a top top Music Producer with serious credentials, someone who will corroborate your statement that the mix was not to a professional standard. This is the kind of grey area that can be challenged in a court as there is no defining line as to what is considered a "minimum acceptable standard" with regards to the performing arts, it's all subjective. He could simply claim that some of the earliest pioneers in recording and mixing used wacky and off the wall techniques to achieve sublime results, Hendrix, The Beatles etc etc. Were these avant garde or just plain wrong?

My point is merely to illustrate how difficult it would be to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that the service he provided was substandard. Most folks don't even know what the standard is bar the latest offerings from The Script or Westlife.

Absolute minefield.

Denalihighway

Savman wrote: »

Steady, you can't name and shame. Libel...

I fear this thread may not last long and to be honest I don't think it serves the OP's best interest having this discussion here on a forum widely used in Ireland. Genuinely, consult a good expert in the legal field and build your case that way because it wouldn't take much cop on for the guy to find this thread/forum and with the amount at stake I'd not take the chance giving him any further ammunition.

I would imagine if you take it the whole way you would need to call in a top top Music Producer with serious credentials, someone who will corroborate your statement that the mix was not to a professional standard. This is the kind of grey area that can be challenged in a court as there is no defining line as to what is considered a "minimum acceptable standard" with regards to the performing arts, it's all subjective. He could simply claim that some of the earliest pioneers in recording and mixing used wacky and off the wall techniques to achieve sublime results, Hendrix, The Beatles etc etc. Were these avant garde or just plain wrong?

My point is merely to illustrate how difficult it would be to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that the service he provided was substandard. Most folks don't even know what the standard is bar the latest offerings from The Script or Westlife.

Absolute minefield.

I hear ya.

Don't worry if I haven't got mad enough and lost my head enough to name and shame him yet then I won't be doing it any time soon. If I won the case, then I assume i'd be at liberty to tell anyone I wanted what happened.

Note to mods...there'll be no naming and shaming.

regarding the cooberation of a 'professional' etc...that's pretty much done.

I think having to wait 4 months for mix after finishing recording and getting a berating for asking what's taking so long would indicate sub-par performance.

Then there's the absolute litany of other sh*t that I'm not willing to discuss here. Horror show stuff.

Like you say, this isn't straightforward but I'm determined to get what I think I deserve. This might be hard to believe but at one stage we used to get on and when I started approaching him for this I was genuinely hoping he'd see the error of his ways and change them.

I also don't want to see other bands and musicians suffer the same fate.

DublinWriter

Denalihighway wrote: »

I also don't want to see other bands and musicians suffer the same fate.

The first thing a solicitor will ask you is 'is he a mark?', i.e. worth suing.

If his business is going under then it doesn't matter if you win in court, you'll just have to stand in line with all the other creditors.

Denalihighway

DublinWriter wrote: »

The first thing a solicitor will ask you is 'is he a mark?', i.e. worth suing.

If his business is going under then it doesn't matter if you win in court, you'll just have to stand in line with all the other creditors.

I understand that. Dunno about other cases etc...but would be surprised if there's other people actually going after him. But I guess I just don't know.

Despite the figures being thrown around etc...its a negligible amount that I would settle for to help with mixing costs. I'd imagine it would be pretty easy to sell some equipment or something, he has a tonne of it and doesn't know how to use half of it.

Splinters

Unless my understanding of the word libel is incorrect, it would not apply here. If the OP has email proof of what was originally agreed and records of the conversations and events that took place afterwards then there couldnt be any grounds for libel or slander. The very nature of both of those is that an incorrect acusation was made. If the events in the original post are not in dispute then its simply stating facts. Naming the person at fault here would serve nothing other then to warn any other potential clients who may end up getting the same treatment.

artvandulet

Is your band a limited company or a partnership? Are you a business in other words?

Denalihighway

no we're neither

artvandulet

Well then i don't see why you cant go the small claims route. It's not a business to business transaction. I know you can only claim a max of 2k but at least it's something, and only costs 15 quid. You can do it online in 5mins. Very little hassle.

I took a claim against a company recently and won. It all happened via email and I never had to go to court. Worth 15 quid if you can deal with only getting a potential 2k back.