Nature in the News

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

100 million plus trees is still 100 million plus trees.


I don't know why there's often a reluctance to give credit where credit's due.

magicbastarder

virtue signalling is where you claim to be virtuous without actually having achieved anything significant.
planting trees in the 9 figures is significant.

Del.Monte

magicbastarder wrote: »

virtue signalling is where you claim to be virtuous without actually having achieved anything significant.
planting trees in the 9 figures is significant.

Planting loads of trees is one thing but looking after them to maturity is another story. Virtue signalling to me too.

magicbastarder

in what sense do you mean 'looking after them'? as in protecting them from being chopped down?

i'm somewhat agog at the cynicism. damned if you do, damned if you don't.

magicbastarder

virtually every ecologist worldwide: "we need more trees!"
ethiopia: "hey folks, we planted more than 100 *million* of them"
some of the reaction: "you only did that to pretend you care".

tricky D

It is Defeatism which guarantees nothing will ever improve. Even trying and failing has more merit than doing nothing at all.

baaba maal

recedite wrote: »

Virtue signalling; its all about the photo and the soundbyte.
Actual facts tend to take a back seat.

A common definition of virtue signalling is "the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue."

So, the numbers of tree planted is open to debate (and I have no idea whether it ten million or three hundred million), but trees were planted, not just opinions expressed. Unless you think it is all "fake news" by the MSM etc.?

recedite

baaba maal wrote: »

So, the numbers of tree planted is open to debate (and I have no idea whether it ten million or three hundred million), but trees were planted, not just opinions expressed. Unless you think it is all "fake news" by the MSM etc.?

I've no doubt some trees were planted, and the photos are there of the govt. guys with spades to prove it. Somebody got a grant.
I hope they grow, but maybe a herd of goats will be driven through there tomorrow.

Apart from agriculture, one of the main reasons trees don't do well in Africa is that a lot of people do their daily cooking on charcoal, which means they are constantly on the prowl for sticks and firewood.
If you think Ethiopia is suddenly going to be transformed from an almost treeless landscape to an arboreal paradise as a result of this latest promotion, be my guest.

odyssey06

tricky D wrote: »

It is Defeatism which guarantees nothing will ever improve. Even trying and failing has more merit than doing nothing at all.

I'm not going to call it virtue signalling, but it's also worth pointing out that planting them is only half the battle.
Now if they have planted them with zero plan or budget or intention for maintenance, then it might be virtue signalling.

Trying and failing doesn't have merit if it precludes you from doing something more practicable than you can sustain and succeed at. That would be a concern.

Del.Monte

magicbastarder wrote: »

virtually every ecologist worldwide: "we need more trees!"
ethiopia: "hey folks, we planted more than 100 *million* of them"
some of the reaction: "you only did that to pretend you care".

To me it's like Ireland being out there in declaring a Climate Emergency and then doing Sweet FA about it - as usual.

baaba maal

recedite wrote: »

I've no doubt some trees were planted, and the photos are there of the govt. guys with spades to prove it. Somebody got a grant.
I hope they grow, but maybe a herd of goats will be driven through there tomorrow.

Apart from agriculture, one of the main reasons trees don't do well in Africa is that a lot of people do their daily cooking on charcoal, which means they are constantly on the prowl for sticks and firewood.
If you think Ethiopia is suddenly going to be transformed from an almost treeless landscape to an arboreal paradise as a result of this latest promotion, be my guest.

I don't for one moment think "Ethiopia is suddenly going to be transformed...to an arboreal paradise"- I was just taking issue with you claiming it was merely virtue signalling.

I'm well aware of the many environmental issues in Africa and elsewhere. It is also important to acknowledge if something positive is attempted. you could say that any large scale treeplanting project is at risk from grazing livestock- you could also say that the people who plant the trees are aware of the grazing habits of their livestock and take steps to enable the plants to become established.

recedite

baaba maal wrote: »

people who plant the trees are aware of the grazing habits of their livestock and take steps to enable the plants to become established.

Definitely. I didn't see the local goatherds in the photo though, I saw guys in suits who probably came out from Addis Ababa in their Mercs, with the press photographers. So we don't know who really planted the trees (probably hired labourers) but it does not look to me like a local initiative.

baaba maal

recedite wrote: »

Definitely. I didn't see the local goatherds in the photo though, I saw guys in suits who probably came out from Addis Ababa in their Mercs, with the press photographers. So we don't know who really planted the trees (probably hired labourers) but it does not look to me like a local initiative.

In fairness, you seem to be extrapolating from just one photo- and yes, ministers may well have have been whisked away in their Mercs after doing a photocall. But if, for example, you saw a picture of a Minister here turning the ceremonial sod for a new motorway with the ceremonial shiny shovel, would you assume that they were then going to be laying the tarmac from Dublin to Wexford? It is just a photocall picture as politicians want to associate themselves with projects that reflect well on themselves. It doesn't preclude the possibility that many Ethiopians may have also planted trees for this project.

recedite

baaba maal wrote: »

It doesn't preclude the possibility...

No, but the chances are that the project is done in the typical African way.

baaba maal

recedite wrote: »

No, but the chances are that the project is done in the typical African way.

I'd say you're great craic at a party! We are both expressing opinions here to be fair and neither of can verify the project one way or the other. In my limited visits to West Africa I saw both good and bad examples of environmental projects- not everything in Africa is as bleak as frequently gets portrayed in this part of the world- and sometimes there are genuine success stories.

However, I do recall that Ethiopia was back buying fighter planes not long after the famine in the mid eighties, so I "get" the cynicism. I choose to believe that there are now many more trees growing in Ethiopia than before this project commenced- you are choosing to believe that it consists of a staged photo and nothing more- fair enough. For the record, there are large scale initiatives occurring in Africa that would appear to on a meaningful scale, for example: http://www.afr100.org

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

No, but the chances are that the project is done in the typical African way.

I spent many periods in Africa on environmental projects and they do them a heck of a lot better than we do in our "typical Irish way".

recedite

baaba maal wrote: »

For the record, there are large scale initiatives occurring in Africa that would appear to on a meaningful scale, for example: http://www.afr100.org

That's actually all part of the same thing.

Here's more photos of the same guys, from your link.

Look, I agree neither of us has done a lot of research into this particular project. My opinion is that this fits the usual pattern. Foreign aid pours in, Mr 20% appears and takes his cut (mercs don't come cheap)
Mr 10% then appears and takes his cut. Some goatherds get told to remove their goats from the area they have been herding on. Govt. appointed guys swoop in and plant trees. When the dust settles, goatherds return to do what goatherds do.
Anyway, I see the Germans are stumping up a lot of the money, so its only fair that they get a lot of it back in sales of high end cars.
Party on, dude.

baaba maal

You have laid out what you think will happen here, but you don't actually have any evidence to back it up, other than a general assumption that corruption pervades every facet of life there and that everything is doomed to failure.

Given the context:

Abiy kicked off his day in southern Ethiopia where he joined officials to plant seedlings in ArbaMinch. The campaign is part of the wider fight against environmental degradation.

Since May when the tree planting drive was launched, the Prime Minister made it a focal point of all his meetings and engagements around the country.

He planted seedlings with all guests that visited him at his office. He also planted special saplings in honour of slain officials of the June 22 assassinations in Amhara region and Addis Ababa.

Ethiopia has in recent years suffered from the negative impact of climate change especially in relation to droughts in parts of the country.

Reports indicate that in 2017, over 2 million animals died in Ethiopia due to drought because of the scarcity of rainfall.


So, it wasn't just a one-day event for the PM, he was also planting some in memory of Ethiopian politicians and officials killed in a coup attempt in June and also following on from drought exacerbated by the massive loss of tree cover in the last fifty years- so it is just possible, that (gasp!) a politician was trying to do the right thing and was maximising publicity for it by making it an issue in his daily work.

I included the link to indicate that there was a larger project beyond just Ethiopia. It is just possible that the goatherds there are aware of the deforestation and manage their herds to prevent them chewing up the saplings.

recedite

Moses Faithful Slime wrote: »

I spent many periods in Africa on environmental projects ...

Was the champagne any good?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

Was the champagne any good?

You sarcasm is falling on deaf ears. I was there and involved in environmental projects. Were you?

Nowhere is perfect but they are certainly putting in an honest decent and practical effort.

recedite

Moses Faithful Slime wrote: »

Were you?

No, but I have been to Africa, and so I think we'll just leave it at that.

Del.Monte

Moses Faithful Slime wrote: »

I spent many periods in Africa on environmental projects and they do them a heck of a lot better than we do in our "typical Irish way".

That's not saying much.

OpenYourEyes

Mod Note: Less discussion, more news, and much fewer personal digs thank you very much! If there's a desire for it, I can move the discussion to its own thread.

deise08

https://www.birdguides.com/news/france-stops-hunting-curlews/?fbclid=IwAR3nhQYyTwge78XQMQEpq0HYLXTEv6aTu1BOw_lLn4EHNSL9UPW89Adi4d0

France stops hunting curlews.
I didn't know they ever started.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

deise08 wrote: »

https://www.birdguides.com/news/france-stops-hunting-curlews/?fbclid=IwAR3nhQYyTwge78XQMQEpq0HYLXTEv6aTu1BOw_lLn4EHNSL9UPW89Adi4d0

France stops hunting curlews.
I didn't know they ever started.

They also shoot millions of thrushes and blackbird and hundreds of thousands of skylarks every year. Huge numbers of other waders also.

dodderangler

Moses Faithful Slime wrote: »

They also shoot millions of thrushes and blackbird and hundreds of thousands of skylarks every year. Huge numbers of other waders also.

Don’t forget the amount that come over to Ireland every year from France and Italy to shoot our woodcock.
Not so much their fault as much as it is the Irish lads selling them the permits. Seen videos of them shooting over fifty in a day. Disgraceful

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Climate change impact on birds: Winners and losers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-devon-49512732

recedite

Moses Faithful Slime wrote: »

Climate change impact on birds: Winners and losers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-devon-49512732

I know its trendy to bang on about climate change and global warming, but a lot of those conclusions just don't add up.

There have been some bad winters recently eg 2010 and more recently the Beast from the East.
Parakeets and blue tits exploit garden feeders and suburbia, hence its not climate change that favours them, its human habits.
Buzzards are not being shot and poisoned as much, hence its not climate change, its human habits.
Migratory birds have evolved to go north in summer when insects are most abundant. Urbanisation and intensive farming mean less insects and more people now in Europe.
Habitats have changed. Climate, less so.

magicbastarder

recedite wrote: »

I know its trendy to bang on about climate change and global warming

not *quite* how i'd phrase it, but they do explicitly acknowledge your comment about bird being fed in suburbia:

Garden birds, such as the robin and blue tit, have seen numbers increase over the past few decades. This is thought to be because smaller birds tend to be fed by humans

and they also mention the parakeet being a very adaptable invasive introduction.

anyway, the article is vague at times about which birds are thriving/suffering, and which are thriving/suffering because of climate change.

New Home

I remember watching a documentary a couple of years ago that talked about how global warming was causing caterpillars to hatch a couple of weeks earlier than they would have previously done, and how that was severely affecting the survival of nestlings (tits, I think, but I can't remember exactly), as the breeding season reached its peak too late for their usual food supply. It was also affecting plants, as caterpillars were eating through them almost undisturbed. I think that was in mainland Europe, though, not here.

I know, I'm not very precise.

OpenYourEyes

recedite wrote: »

I know its trendy to bang on about climate change and global warming, but a lot of those conclusions just don't add up.

There have been some bad winters recently eg 2010 and more recently the Beast from the East.
Parakeets and blue tits exploit garden feeders and suburbia, hence its not climate change that favours them, its human habits.
Buzzards are not being shot and poisoned as much, hence its not climate change, its human habits.
Migratory birds have evolved to go north in summer when insects are most abundant. Urbanisation and intensive farming mean less insects and more people now in Europe.
Habitats and human habits have changed. Climate, less so.

Plenty of evidence of wintering waterbirds shifting their distributions based on climate and weather patterns in recent years, but these don't seem to have been included in the study.

There are those who think that some of our breeding wader declines can be linked to the North Atlantic Oscillation, obviously made much worse by the habitat destruction etc in recent decades that means their populations aren't able to withstand a dip caused by the NAO that they could have previously persisted through.

dodderangler

Not sure if I has anything to do with it but past few years I’ve noticed rabbits breeding all year round?
I know the winters aren’t nearly as cold as they used to be but even seeing leverets out earlier than normal.

recedite

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

There are those who think that some of our breeding wader declines can be linked to the North Atlantic Oscillation, obviously made much worse by the habitat destruction etc in recent decades that means their populations aren't able to withstand a dip caused by the NAO that they could have previously persisted through.

I think that was mainly birds which feed at sea such as the puffins possibly being affected by changing ocean currents. Which would have been a more scientific example, as opposed to urban parakeets.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Geese changing routes.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49551044


Just posting the news report. I know there is considerable cynicism here but somebody may wish to access the full report.

Birdnuts

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Plenty of evidence of wintering waterbirds shifting their distributions based on climate and weather patterns in recent years, but these don't seem to have been included in the study.

There are those who think that some of our breeding wader declines can be linked to the North Atlantic Oscillation, obviously made much worse by the habitat destruction etc in recent decades that means their populations aren't able to withstand a dip caused by the NAO that they could have previously persisted through.

I think thats the key ie. we've had sharper "climate change" in the past but wildlife could adapt, now we are impacting so much of the planet this is becoming near impossible Interesting though the trends that go against some of the above such as the increase in summering Whoopers in recent years, Great Skuas now breeding off Mayo etc.

recedite

Moses Faithful Slime wrote: »

Geese changing routes.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49551044


Just posting the news report. I know there is considerable cynicism here but somebody may wish to access the full report.

What surprised us is that it is mainly the young geese who have shifted. The youngsters are responding to a trend they could not have experienced during their short life."Adult geese are also increasingly shifting north, although they often return to the traditional areas in their old age

Climate change within the lifespan of an old goose.
I don't think so. More likely the geese have an in-built imperative to keep flying until they see the first patches of snow, and then stop to feed for a while. So that location is going to vary from year to year.

New Home

A Canadian goose lifespan is 10-24 years, according to the internet. A Brent goose's is up to 27 years. Is the weather now the same as 24 years ago?

OpenYourEyes

Birdnuts wrote: »

I think thats the key ie. we've had sharper "climate change" in the past but wildlife could adapt, now we are impacting so much of the planet this is becoming near impossible Interesting though the trends that go against some of the above such as the increase in summering Whoopers in recent years, Great Skuas now breeding off Mayo etc.

I'm slightly skeptical about how significant an increase there's been in summering Whoopers tbh (i.e. if there's increasing reporting rather than increasing numbers summering), though given that the Icelandic population has been increasing it would be expected.

Black-tailed Godwit and Whooper Swan are two of very few wintering waterbirds that have increased in Ireland in recent years - both breeding populations in Iceland have expanded significantly, likely facilitated by climate change and warming opening up habitats for them in Iceland. Of course, most of our wintering waterbirds come from the east and the majority are declining.

Capercaillie

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I'm slightly skeptical about how significant an increase there's been in summering Whoopers tbh (i.e. if there's increasing reporting rather than increasing numbers summering), though given that the Icelandic population has been increasing it would be expected.

Black-tailed Godwit and Whooper Swan are two of very few wintering waterbirds that have increased in Ireland in recent years - both breeding populations in Iceland have expanded significantly, likely facilitated by climate change and warming opening up habitats for them in Iceland. Of course, most of our wintering waterbirds come from the east and the majority are declining.

Summering whooper swans are probably injured birds that would not be capable to migration to Iceland?

recedite

New Home wrote: »

Is the weather now the same as 24 years ago?

Yes. Allowing for normal fluctuations, some years colder some warmer.

New Home

That's something we'll have to agree to disagree on.

magicbastarder

if by 'some years colder, some years warmer', you mean '4 years colder, 20 years warmer', you're probably correct.
*that's a rough guess from looking at the global temperature graph.

New Home

New Home wrote: »

A Canadian goose lifespan is 10-24 years, according to the internet. A Brent goose's is up to 27 years. Is the weather now the same as 24 years ago?

1995? Probably broadly. I think we focus on too small a sample. There was a three month drought in these island in 1975? Buried in snow in 1984?

"Since records began" is always the saying. "Hottest since records began" etc. The planet has been running a meteo for 100s of millions of years, but we are only seeing records for the last 100 or so.

Now I have remembered, there was a record from a couple of thousand years ago when the entire world was under water from flooding. :pac:

recedite

Karl Lagerfeld spider: New arachnid so stylish it's been named after fashion designer

Birdnuts

At a time when nature seems to be under pressure nearly everywhere its nice to read some positive stuff now and again - came across these 2 interesting stories this week:)

https://www.wolf.org/headlines/video-images-of-first-wolf-cubs-in-netherlands-for-200-years/

https://www.4vultures.org/europes-5th-vulture-species/?fbclid=IwAR1bdnOKc6s7yqJpS3YamYCH2pTOcyreW03T_cCxlnzXfRzi8pbsUynx-bg

recedite

The wolf story is interesting in that the Netherlands is quite similar to us in latitude and climate, but far more densely populated by humans.
The reason they can have wolves and we can't, is simply because we're on an island. I doubt those Dutch farmers would ever have sanctioned a wolf reintroduction, but the wolves have bypassed all the bureaucracy by just walking in.
Some other places wolves have been busy recolonising are many states in the USA, Germany and Denmark (where there have been some sheep kills).

magicbastarder

recedite wrote: »

The wolf story is interesting in that the Netherlands is quite similar to us in latitude and climate, but far more densely populated by humans.

i would be curious about the spread of that population density. NL as a whole is probably more densely populated, but IIRC the urban/rural population split in ireland is approx what it was in europe in the 60s - that is, i suspect NL is much more urbanised and the countryside may be less densely populated than ireland's.

recedite

Its a national park area on the outshirts of Arnhem, with a lot of recreational use (walking and cycling) and surrounded by either suburbia or intensive farming.
Have a look here.

Stigura

This is a Real 'feel good' read!

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/09/texan-hounds-fight-rhino-poaching/

Birdnuts

https://news.mongabay.com/2019/09/a-lifeline-for-the-last-leopards-commentary/?fbclid=IwAR2Ehls4KCOhhLVcJqW8eVinBopHpQOGkxcfA-MGrsz5WUOZAWLMLYHPYsk

Alot of species could benefit from this