Punishment - No P.E.

dambarude

daltonm wrote: »

excluding them for part of the class or excluding them from a full class (as in the OP's case) then to my mind the fault is with the teacher.

Nobody said that a child should be excluded from a class, in fact the opposite has been argued.

daltonm

RibenaHead wrote: »

Where did you find this set of guidelines that you refer to as "the guidelines?" Is it set in stone somewhere that these are the guidelines that should be used by all teachers with all class levels in all schools? Sometimes this will work in a class but perhaps not always.

I didn't say it was set in stone - it's a guideline.

Nowhere on any site I have seen are teachers encouraged to impose their own forms of punishement without the consent of the parents and the principal.


On any site I have seen it recommends that guidelines are put in place and that teachers and parents communicate and agree to a system that is consistant and clear to all children.

On any site I have seen, a whole school approach is recommended.

Nowhere have I seen that a teacher may, without a set of clear guidelines which is discussed and agreed with parent, remove a child from a class for example - and in the case of the OP, the exclusion of her child from a class was wrong and is an example of a teacher choosing to impose his or her own form of punishement.


Just to add, one of my children is now in secondary - he has 7 teachers and there are guidelines in place, agreed with the parents. It also makes it clear to the kids that any breach of misbehaviour is treated in the very same manner.

Now if you cannot see a reason for guidelines and a whole school approach then that is fine - but it works.

daltonm

dambarude wrote: »

Nobody said that a child should be excluded from a class, in fact the opposite has been argued.

Yes but the point is that the teacher did exclude the child - i.e. imposed his own form of punishment.

Feeona

daltonm wrote: »

In regards to the underlined, according to the ASTI webiste "Teachers in this position of trust are deemed to be in “loco parentis” and are expected to exercise a duty of care, which a careful and responsible parent would exercise in similar circumstances."

daltonm wrote: »

dambarude said:
It's not feasible that the only recourse for misbehaviour is
1. A warning
2. A visit to the principal's office
3. Talk to parents
4. Detention
5. Suspension
6. Detention.

But those are the guidelines.

Regarding your first quote (although you're referring to secondary school teaching), you say that parents are in loco parentis. Basically we should act the same as the child's parent.
Your second quote implies that all school need to follow the same guidelines.

First of all, every school has their own guidelines. These guidelines are drawn up and factors such as the socio-economic background of the area, available resources and funding, size of school, size of staff, state and size of classroom buildings, size of playground are all taken into account. It'd be absolute chaos if every school followed the same procedure.

Second of all, what guidelines do you follow when you're disciplining your child? Do you have the same guidelines as your neighbours? Or do you have your own procedure which you feels works just right for you?
I say this because every teacher has different ways of disciplining the children in their class.

Thirdly, you can't run to the principal every five minutes because as others have pointed out
1. You'll be seen as incapable
2. You've four hours and 55 mins to cover an eleven subject curriculum (+ Religion), running to the principal is eating into that time
3. What happens when the child throws a chair through the window. Call the gardaí?

Several posters here agree that you cannot exclude children from the curriculum, as it is their right to have access to it. 99% of teachers do not go out of their way to humiliate a child. Maybe some do, but you have assholes in all walks of life, not just the teaching profession.
I really don't understand however why you think it's ok to tell teachers how they should discipline children in the classroom. Would you like it if someone looked down their nose at the way you discipline your child? Or would you be happy being told by someone who has never done your job how to do your job?

blackrabbit

Well said Feeona. I couldn't agree more with everything you said. Every child has a different personality and background/home environment, therefore teachers use their experience and best judgement on how to deal with each individual circumstance. Until you step into a teacher's role for a day you cannot possibly judge how difficult it is to keep every child learning in a well disciplined way, in a more often than not overcrowded classroom. Ultimately, teachers want the same outcome as parents, the best for each child.

jpb1974

Just to update this thread -

Apparently the teacher in question has been causing a lot of unrest with a lot of the kids in the young lad's class.

One young chap was so upset about the teacher that he was crying every day on the way to school and was begging his mother to allow him to change school.

Another chap was being threatened (in front of the other kids) to be "sent back to first class" if he didn't have certain exercises done properly.

Quite a few said that she shouted a lot and they weren't very fond of her.

None of these kids have ever complained about a teacher before. My young lad loved all of his previous teachers.

One of the mother's approached my other half and asked if we had been having problems with the same teacher.

My other half approached the teacher one day to discuss the homework/no P.E. issue and she said that the teacher was very unfriendly. The teacher said that he only missed the first 20 minutes and that was basically the end of the conversation... no effort at all by the teacher to discuss the issue with the homework, why it was causing confusion, a general chat on how the young lad was getting on... nothing.

To cut a long story short - a couple of the mother's approached the teacher in question and some serious words were had. Without going into too much detail I think the teacher in question was given a short sharp reality check. I suppose the thought of a child being so upset by a teacher that he was crying on the way to school every morning really would have an impact on even the toughest of souls.

It seems that the situation has now improved in the class.

daltonm

Feeona wrote: »

Regarding your first quote (although you're referring to secondary school teaching), you say that parents are in loco parentis. Basically we should act the same as the child's parent.
Your second quote implies that all school need to follow the same guidelines.

First of all, every school has their own guidelines. These guidelines are drawn up and factors such as the socio-economic background of the area, available resources and funding, size of school, size of staff, state and size of classroom buildings, size of playground are all taken into account. It'd be absolute chaos if every school followed the same procedure.

Second of all, what guidelines do you follow when you're disciplining your child? Do you have the same guidelines as your neighbours? Or do you have your own procedure which you feels works just right for you?
I say this because every teacher has different ways of disciplining the children in their class.

Thirdly, you can't run to the principal every five minutes because as others have pointed out
1. You'll be seen as incapable
2. You've five hours and forty mins to cover an eleven subject curriculum, running to the principal is eating into that time
3. What happens when the child throws a chair through the window. Call the gardaí?

Several posters here agree that you cannot exclude children from the curriculum, as it is their right to have access to it. 99% of teachers do not go out of their way to humiliate a child. Maybe some do, but you have assholes in all walks of life, not just the teaching profession.
I really don't understand however why you think it's ok to tell teachers how they should discipline children in the classroom. Would you like it if someone looked down their nose at the way you discipline your child? Or would you be happy being told by someone who has never done your job how to do your job?

Just to clarify your first paragraph - I did not say that teachers were "loco parentis" ASTI say it on their websites and for your information so do INTO - "While teachers in schools act in loco parentis"
http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/MediaCoverage/August2010/


The term in loco parentis, Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent," refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent. ...

So basically not only did I not say that teachers were in loco parentis but I also did not say that basically teachers should act as the parent.

So onto you first point, every school should have guidelines - some it would appear do not and I hardly have to point out to you the difference between hard and solid rules and guidelines?
Nowhere did I say or imply that each and every school has to follow the same set of rules, I do believe that the guidelines should be the same but adapted to each school.

Secondly, my children are not my neighbours responsibility, I don't consult with her because my children are my responsibility and when they enter a classroom they become the teachers responsibility - thus we now have shared responsibility - your claim therefore that "every teacher has their own way of disciplining children is exactly the reason why schools should have guidelines - the problems arise when each teacher applies their own, different rules and is the wrong way to deal with issues.

Thirdly, never did I say that a teacher has to run to the principal every 5 minutes and I am confused as to why you or anyone else seem to think that?

"99% of teachers do not go out of their way to humiliate a child. Maybe some do, but you have assholes in all walks of life, not just the teaching profession."

Well when you have kids (if you already don't) I hope your child doesn't get the asshole - because one asshole who can make one child feel demeaned is one asshole too many.

Yes the posters agree that a child shouldn't be excluded - but it is happening in schools, and some of the teachers here seem to be so against what I am posting because I am a parent.

For example - " I really don't understand however why you think it's ok to tell teachers how they should discipline children in the classroom. "

Please point out where I am telling teachers how to discipline children? There is a big difference between suggesting guidelines and adopting a whole school approach to discpline and telling a teacher how to discipline a child.

Or -"Or would you be happy being told by someone who has never done your job how to do your job? "

Your job is to teach - my job is to parent and you don't have to right in inflict a form of discipline on my child that I have not been informed of and may harm my child.

username123

daltonm wrote: »

my angle is that as a parent, if my child came home and told me that a teacher excluded him, humiliated him and singled him out for treatment in a manner that upset and hurt him, I'd be furious.

When I was a schoolchild if I came home upset that a teacher had excluded me or humilated me etc.. my parents would be furious too - with me, for not behaving myself in school and causing a situation where a teacher had to discipline me (in whatever way it was done). I was taught to respect teachers. My parents did not interfere in how I was disciplined in school - and I think they were right.

daltonm

username123 wrote: »

When I was a schoolchild if I came home upset that a teacher had excluded me or humilated me etc.. my parents would be furious too - with me, for not behaving myself in school and causing a situation where a teacher had to discipline me (in whatever way it was done). I was taught to respect teachers. My parents did not interfere in how I was disciplined in school - and I think they were right.

Seriously? You as a parent would never interfere regardless of what a teacher did?

I'm not interfering at all but it's a simple fact of life that changes have been brought in to protect children, they were not introduced by the parents but by the Department of Education.

Edit to add - how would your teacher have felt if he called them to the school about your behaviour and they said "that's your problem, nothing to do with me"?

jpb1974

When I was a schoolchild if I came home upset that a teacher had excluded me or humilated me etc.. my parents would be furious too - with me, for not behaving myself in school and causing a situation where a teacher had to discipline me (in whatever way it was done). I was taught to respect teachers. My parents did not interfere in how I was disciplined in school - and I think they were right.

Not sure I totally agree with this - if a 7 year old doesn't have his/her homework done properly due to some sort of misunderstanding then I don't think he/she needs to be excluded from the curriculum.

It would have been pretty obvious to the teacher that our young lad sends in good homework the vast majority of the time so to go to these lengths over one isolated incident was totally unjust in my opinion.

daltonm

jpb1974 wrote: »

Not sure I totally agree with this - if a 7 year old doesn't have his/her homework done properly due to some sort of misunderstanding then I don't think he/she needs to be excluded from the curriculum.

It would have been pretty obvious to the teacher that our young lad sends in good homework the vast majority of the time so to go to these lengths over one isolated incident was totally unjust in my opinion.

I read your update and it has to be very upsetting. Thankfully teachers like that are a minority, but they are out there and god knows how many poor kids that teacher traumatised.

Again, teachers who feel that they have free reign to impose their own forms of punishment on children will thrive when proper guidelines and procedure are not in place.

username123

daltonm wrote: »

Seriously? You as a parent would never interfere regardless of what a teacher did?

Well nothing 'extreme' ever happened, but they never interfered as far as I am aware. Presumably if Id been beaten they would have (although I do remember a beating in primary school when it was acceptable to beat children and they didnt so maybe not).

daltonm wrote: »

Edit to add - how would your teacher have felt if he called them to the school about your behaviour and they said "that's your problem, nothing to do with me"?

They wouldnt have said that - they would have disciplined me and their discipline would have been far scarier and far worse than anything a teacher could think up.

When i said they didnt interfere I meant they didnt interfere in terms of telling the teachers what to do and how to do it - but they did add to school discipline themselves.

It was a strict upbringing, but I dont think Im any the worse for it. Also, they were both from families where if they got into trouble in school they were actually beaten at home for getting into trouble, so they thought they were going easy on us by comparison!! Plus they both had to leave school very young (by todays standards) so considered that we (myself and sibling) were lucky we got to continue education and should be appreciative of it and not be messers.

Im not saying that my parents attitude was totally right and no doubt there were occasions where I was unjustifiably punished in school followed by another punishment at home for something I didnt do or something that was unfair - but in general thats how it was in my schooldays and for most of my friends also.

I could be way off the mark here but I think that todays society allows children to misbehave and get away with it in school and while its right and proper that there is no physical punishment (beating) anymore, its not right that a teacher has to worry about parents coming down on them for disciplining a child in a manner in which they see fit. Its not teaching a child respect for authority if the parents show up and complain about various school punishments.

See I dont agree with this:

Your job is to teach - my job is to parent and you don't have to right in inflict a form of discipline on my child that I have not been informed of and may harm my child.

because its subjective on your part. It may not harm your child, but nonetheless, you sent your child to the school and agreed to 'in loco parentis' so when 'in loco parentis' is applied and you dispute it - it undermines the teachers authority - in my opinion.

D4RK ONION

To be honest, I think you're blowing a lot of this totally out of proportion daltonm. While you're entitled to your opinion, I genuinely find it difficult to believe that any child would be emotionally compromised by something as simple as some of the infractions which have been mentioned in this thread such as stay in from break for 2 minutes, or stand at the back of the line.

Regardless, thank you for the update OP. I'm beginning to have to repeat myself, so I'll leave it at that, but I will continue to monitor the thread (obviously).

username123

jpb1974 wrote: »

Not sure I totally agree with this - if a 7 year old doesn't have his/her homework done properly due to some sort of misunderstanding then I don't think he/she needs to be excluded from the curriculum.

Youre right, there was indeed a misunderstanding so I agree that you are justified in disputing the situation - in this case. But I still think that it teaches children an important lesson if they just have to put up with the odd situation like this in life. LIFE isnt fair sometimes and if you learn that early on then perhaps you take it more stoically later - only a thought.

jpb1974

Youre right, there was indeed a misunderstanding so I agree that you are justified in disputing the situation - in this case. But I still think that it teaches children an important lesson if they just have to put up with the odd situation like this in life. LIFE isnt fair sometimes and if you learn that early on then perhaps you take it more stoically later - only a thought.

Ah right... maybe the teacher should randomly punch a few of them in the face so... because this happens in life too... life isn't fair sometimes... best get them ready for the worst eh!

daltonm

D4RK ONION wrote: »

To be honest, I think you're blowing a lot of this totally out of proportion daltonm. While you're entitled to your opinion, I genuinely find it difficult to believe that any child would be emotionally compromised by something as simple as some of the infractions which have been mentioned in this thread such as stay in from break for 2 minutes, or stand at the back of the line.

Regardless, thank you for the update OP. I'm beginning to have to repeat myself, so I'll leave it at that, but I will continue to monitor the thread (obviously).

I do feel that my comments and my opinion were taken out of proportion. In my posts I have consistently referred to guidelines and a shared approach to discipline. I have also consistantly said that it is not about making a child stand in the back or not allowing them to choose colours, but more on how we discipline kids in our schools and to insure that there is a consisitancy and an approach that is shared by all teachers with the full knowledge and consent of parents.

For some reason that point seems to be lost.

So I'll bow out myself now, thanks.:)

username123

jpb1974 wrote: »

Ah right... maybe the teacher should randomly punch a few of them in the face so... because this happens in life too... life isn't fair sometimes... best get them ready for the worst eh!

You didnt mention anywhere that the teacher was punching children in the face?

I already said in an earlier post that its right that teachers are not allowed to beat children.

Youre talking about not being allowed do PE for 20 minutes. Big difference between that and punching children in the face. If your child was punched in the face in school then go to the guards. If your child has to step out of PE over a misunderstanding then its not really a big deal - now you wanted to intervene and perhaps there is justification because there was a misunderstanding - but equally, perhaps itd be best to just leave it - because, its NOT a big deal.

What message are you sending your child when you intervene over small insignificant stuff like this? That they have the backup of mammy and daddy if they dont like how a teacher behaves. Undermines the teachers authority - over something silly.

jpb1974

You didnt mention anywhere that the teacher was punching children in the face?

It was a hypothetical scenario devised using your grey logic.

If your child has to step out of PE over a misunderstanding then its not really a big deal

Do you know me? Are you speaking on my behalf? It is a big deal, at least where I am sitting.

What message are you sending your child when you intervene over small insignificant stuff like this?

Answer - That I respect his right to an education.

Undermines the teachers authority - over something silly.

Silly to you perhaps, but not silly to me.

I agree that you are justified in disputing the situation

So I was right at 15:27 and I was undermining the teacher's authority at 15:48. OK.. I see.

dambarude

Look, I think we're more or less agreeing on the same thing.

The way children are treated should be transparent, and shouldn't do any psychological (and obviously no physical) harm to the child that's receiving the 'punishment'. In addition, the child should not miss out on curriculum time due to a 'punishment'.

We don't seem to agree on whether or not teachers should be allowed use minor sanctions in the classroom like those that have been mentioned. I would have thought that there would be no objections to these types of punishments. This thread has shown me that I wasn't right on that one. But there's no reason why it can't be made clear to parents that these sanctions operate in a particular school. If they object to punishments like being sent to the back of the line, parents would have to take it up with the school. But if the situation was to arise that the only sanction allowed was a visit to the principal, or something more severe, I don't think it would work.

username123

jpb1974 wrote: »

It was a hypothetical scenario devised using your grey logic.

Bit of a stretch from stepping out of PE to punching children in the face no? If you think the two are on a par then there is something wrong in your logic.

jpb1974 wrote: »

Do you know me? Are you speaking on my behalf? It is a big deal, at least where I am sitting.

No - it was my opinion. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I find it difficult to understand why a child having to step out of PE for 20 minutes is a big deal and why a reasonable adult would think it was.

jpb1974 wrote: »

Answer - That I respect his right to an education.

I hardly think its going to ruin his chances for Harvard if he has to step out of PE for 20 minutes.

jpb1974 wrote: »

Silly to you perhaps, but not silly to me.

See above.

username123

jpb1974 wrote: »

So I was right at 15:27 and I was undermining the teacher's authority at 15:48. OK.. I see.

Youre quoting out of context. Please reread my earlier post if you dont understand the point I was making.

Your posts here show a lot in terms of reasonablity over something minor. Good luck with the complaints to the school.

jpb1974

And if I replaced PE with Maths.. that would be fine too?

See the problem with you is that you don't seem to hold much regard for PE as a curriculum subject whereas I do.

I don't agree at all with your grey logic... and of course my example of a punch if the face was stretching it... but the point being that no school adopts the "ok, it wasn't right but sure what harm did it do them, sure it'll toughen the little fecker up won't it" approach.

The fact of the matter is that whilst I certainly don't agree with what happened I am pretty calm about it and I am a reasonable person. It's really just a case that I just wouldn't have much time for patronising remarks from people that know very close to nothing about me.

username123

jpb1974 wrote: »

It's really just a case that I just wouldn't have much time for patronising remarks from people that know very close to nothing about me.

Then why post and ask for advice on a public forum where you will get all kinds of opinions and remarks from people that know very close to nothing about you.

btw - yes, PE or Maths or Art or English - I dont think 20 minutes out of any of them is going to damage a 7 year old for life.

thesimpsons

we have case in daughters school where one particular teacher will cancel PE for the whole class at a whim - it can be anything from a child misbehaving in the line on the way to the hall to another teacher wishing to take over their slot for using the hall and the teacher only too glad to give it up. The kids however, never ever get their PE at alternative time. I've approached the teacher in question a few times this year already - always in a very rational way, and she can quite honestly not see what the problem is. She firmly believes she is right and can sanction the whole class for the actions of one child. I've now made appointment to see the principal on it as I firmly believe she has no authority to cancel PE in this way. With an aggretate of 23 years dealing with primary schools I've never had to approach the principal for anything concerning my kids discipline or a problem with a teacher but this is really an appauling attitude to have to deal with. All its teaching the kids is that (a) PE is unimportant, (b) if you hate PE you have the power to disrupt it for all the others in the class and (c) that this teacher is not a great teacher.

jpb1974

Then why post and ask for advice on a public forum where you will get all kinds of opinions and remarks from people that know very close to nothing about you.

The reason would be because I tend to respect people's opinion's and thoughts, differing as they might be, when they are sensible and considered.

This "ah sure he'll learn from it" could be thrown about all over the place and we could all just accept it and not bother having a debate at all.

When someone tells me "I hardly think its going to ruin his chances for Harvard if he has to step out of PE for 20 minutes." I tend to switch off because it isn't constructive it's really just an attempt to be smart, somewhat dismissive and it undermines the original point of discussion as irrelevant and not worth the effort.

username123

jpb1974 wrote: »

The reason would be because I tend to respect people's opinion's and thoughts, differing as they might be, when they are sensible and considered.

Really? Is that why you gave me the hypothetical punch in the face response to a sensible and considered post?

jpb1974 wrote: »

When someone tells me "I hardly think its going to ruin his chances for Harvard if he has to step out of PE for 20 minutes." I tend to switch off because it isn't constructive it's really just an attempt to be smart, somewhat dismissive and it undermines the original point of discussion as irrelevant and not worth the effort.

And the punch in the face response wasnt dismissive and smart no?

jpb1974

All its teaching the kids is that (a) PE is unimportant, (b) if you hate PE you have the power to disrupt it for all the others in the class and (c) that this teacher is not a great teacher.

@thesimpsons - This is exactly how I feel.

username123

jpb1974 wrote: »

@thesimpsons - This is exactly how I feel.

Bit of a different situation stopping PE for everyone and one child stepping out for 20 minutes.

jpb1974

Again, teachers who feel that they have free reign to impose their own forms of punishment on children will thrive when proper guidelines and procedure are not in place.

I have also consistantly said that it is not about making a child stand in the back or not allowing them to choose colours, but more on how we discipline kids in our schools and to insure that there is a consisitancy and an approach that is shared by all teachers with the full knowledge and consent of parents.

Agreed there daltonm. I should be about implementing discipline in a manner that is fair, standardised, consistent and understood by the parents.

The problem a lot of the kids were having with this teacher in question is that she was using scare tactics and violations of the curriculum to impose her will on the students which really wasn't a good thing.

Feeona

daltonm wrote: »

Just to clarify your first paragraph - I did not say that teachers were "loco parentis" ASTI say it on their websites and for your information so do INTO - "While teachers in schools act in loco parentis"
http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/MediaCoverage/August2010/


The term in loco parentis, Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent," refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent. ...

So basically not only did I not say that teachers were in loco parentis but I also did not say that basically teachers should act as the parent.

So onto you first point, every school should have guidelines - some it would appear do not and I hardly have to point out to you the difference between hard and solid rules and guidelines?
Nowhere did I say or imply that each and every school has to follow the same set of rules, I do believe that the guidelines should be the same but adapted to each school.

Secondly, my children are not my neighbours responsibility, I don't consult with her because my children are my responsibility and when they enter a classroom they become the teachers responsibility - thus we now have shared responsibility - your claim therefore that "every teacher has their own way of disciplining children is exactly the reason why schools should have guidelines - the problems arise when each teacher applies their own, different rules and is the wrong way to deal with issues.

Thirdly, never did I say that a teacher has to run to the principal every 5 minutes and I am confused as to why you or anyone else seem to think that?

"99% of teachers do not go out of their way to humiliate a child. Maybe some do, but you have assholes in all walks of life, not just the teaching profession."

Well when you have kids (if you already don't) I hope your child doesn't get the asshole - because one asshole who can make one child feel demeaned is one asshole too many.

Yes the posters agree that a child shouldn't be excluded - but it is happening in schools, and some of the teachers here seem to be so against what I am posting because I am a parent.

For example - " I really don't understand however why you think it's ok to tell teachers how they should discipline children in the classroom. "

Please point out where I am telling teachers how to discipline children? There is a big difference between suggesting guidelines and adopting a whole school approach to discpline and telling a teacher how to discipline a child.

Or -"Or would you be happy being told by someone who has never done your job how to do your job? "

Your job is to teach - my job is to parent and you don't have to right in inflict a form of discipline on my child that I have not been informed of and may harm my child.

With regard to 'loco parentis', you quoted the ASTI website in response to D4rk Onion's point which was 'Teachers are not parents, and neither can they approach the subject of discipline from a parental standpoint'. So you basically said that a teacher should act as a parent unless I'm missing something?

Your point that some schools don't seem to have guidelines is a passive aggressive insult to those posters in this thread who talked about the disciplinary procedures in their schools. If you actually have had real life experience of another school not having guidelines, then I retract my criticism.

Your point about your children not being your neighbour's responsibiility is moot. What I wanted to know is how would you feel if you had to adopt their disciplinary procedure for your child? Do you think it would be feasible?

Running to the principal every five minutes is exactly what would happen if you were only allowed to give a child two warnings before going to the principal. For example 'John stop talking'. Five minutes later 'John this is your second warning, stop talking'. Five minutes later 'John you got two warnings. You have to go to the principal's office'. This scenario would not be better than telling a child 'You have to go last in the line today because you spoke out of turn in class'.

You're telling teachers how to discipline children when you make comments like, and I quote word for word:

'It'ts not about them getting to the arts supplies last-it's the public exclusion and the effects that has on a child'

'There is certainly a need to discipline children-it's more the how that we probably dont agee on!! '

'Firstly I wasn't talking about what the children were doing-it was how they were being punished in a way that could be viewed as emotional bullying.
Secondly I have explained about the guidelines and steps that can be taken to maybe go some way to solving the problem-but all I see is excuses and obstacles-all of which worry about something other than the welfare of the child'


Your last point, yes it is my job to teach, I trained hard to become a teacher so why do you think you can tell me how to do it? And I would appreciate if you would answer my original question. How would you feel if you were told how to do your job by somebody who has no experience of doing it?

E.T.

jpb1974 wrote: »

Just to update this thread -

Apparently the teacher in question has been causing a lot of unrest with a lot of the kids in the young lad's class.

One young chap was so upset about the teacher that he was crying every day on the way to school and was begging his mother to allow him to change school.

Another chap was being threatened (in front of the other kids) to be "sent back to first class" if he didn't have certain exercises done properly.

Quite a few said that she shouted a lot and they weren't very fond of her.

None of these kids have ever complained about a teacher before. My young lad loved all of his previous teachers.

One of the mother's approached my other half and asked if we had been having problems with the same teacher.

My other half approached the teacher one day to discuss the homework/no P.E. issue and she said that the teacher was very unfriendly. The teacher said that he only missed the first 20 minutes and that was basically the end of the conversation... no effort at all by the teacher to discuss the issue with the homework, why it was causing confusion, a general chat on how the young lad was getting on... nothing.

To cut a long story short - a couple of the mother's approached the teacher in question and some serious words were had. Without going into too much detail I think the teacher in question was given a short sharp reality check. I suppose the thought of a child being so upset by a teacher that he was crying on the way to school every morning really would have an impact on even the toughest of souls.

It seems that the situation has now improved in the class.

There's a complaints procedure which should be followed, you can find the link if you put in "complaints" in the search box at education.ie (it won't let me copy the link for some reason).

It doesn't sound like the teacher is dealing with discipline well, but a couple of the mothers going in is a complete recipe for disaster - this could be seen as intimidation. I'm not sticking up for the teacher at all here, but there are better ways to deal with a problem. To be honest, there'd be a lot of teachers delighted if parents did send in complaints following the formal procedure as it would deal with bad teachers much more effectively.

(From the Department of Education website)

These are the steps to be followed -
 In the first instance, a person or parent who wishes to make a complaint should make an appointment and raise the matter with the child’s teacher or year head.

 Where this initial process does not succeed in resolving the complaint, the issue should be raised with the school Principal.

 If the complaint is still not resolved at this stage, the person making the complaint (the complainant) should now raise the matter formally, in writing, with the Board of Management of the School.

In the case of a complaint against a school Principal, the parent or person complaining should discuss the complaint with the Principal in the first instance, and if the matter is not resolved, proceed to address the matter in writing to the Board.

 The Board of Management should acknowledge receipt of the complaint and proceed to investigate the matter. The Board may at this stage, arrange a meeting between the complainant and the teacher concerned or parties involved. The Board will provide them with details of the complaint being made against them. Having carried out its investigations, the Board should write to the complainant and advise them of the outcome, and indicate to them whether they consider the matter to have been satisfactorily resolved.

 If the complainant is still not happy at this stage, they should write again to the Board of Management and formally request a meeting with the Board of Management in order to be given an opportunity to present their case in person.

 If the Board of Management considers that the complaint warrants further investigation, they should arrange to meet with the complainant and allow them to present their case to the Board. The person making the complaint would normally be entitled to be accompanied by a friend to such a meeting. The person about whom the complaint is being made would also generally be given an opportunity to make their case to the Board.

 When the Board of Management have completed their deliberations, they should write to the complainant and advise them of the outcome of their investigations and of any action that they intend to take.

 In instances where a complainant remains unhappy with the investigation and handling of their complaint by a school Board, complainants may choose to bring the matter to the attention of the school Trustees/Patron.

 If the person who has made the complaint remains unhappy with the decision of the Board at this stage they may choose to refer the matter to the Office of the Ombudsman for Children.

E.T.

daltonm - every school does have their own guidelines on discipline, behaviour, praise, and punishment. Most of it is contained in the school's Code of Discipline. Every school in the country has written their own Code of Discipline, no school would dare be without it, it's one of the first documents that an inspector would look for, and would be referred to quite often. When you enrol your child in any school you are given papers to sign, this Code of Discipline is one of them. By signing it you agree that the methods that the school has decided are appropriate.

daltonm

Feeona wrote: »

With regard to 'loco parentis', you quoted the ASTI website in response to D4rk Onion's point which was 'Teachers are not parents, and neither can they approach the subject of discipline from a parental standpoint'. So you basically said that a teacher should act as a parent unless I'm missing something?

Your point that some schools don't seem to have guidelines is a passive aggressive insult to those posters in this thread who talked about the disciplinary procedures in their schools. If you actually have had real life experience of another school not having guidelines, then I retract my criticism.

Your point about your children not being your neighbour's responsibiility is moot. What I wanted to know is how would you feel if you had to adopt their disciplinary procedure for your child? Do you think it would be feasible?

Running to the principal every five minutes is exactly what would happen if you were only allowed to give a child two warnings before going to the principal. For example 'John stop talking'. Five minutes later 'John this is your second warning, stop talking'. Five minutes later 'John you got two warnings. You have to go to the principal's office'. This scenario would not be better than telling a child 'You have to go last in the line today because you spoke out of turn in class'.

You're telling teachers how to discipline children when you make comments like, and I quote word for word:

'It'ts not about them getting to the arts supplies last-it's the public exclusion and the effects that has on a child'

'There is certainly a need to discipline children-it's more the how that we probably dont agee on!! '

'Firstly I wasn't talking about what the children were doing-it was how they were being punished in a way that could be viewed as emotional bullying.
Secondly I have explained about the guidelines and steps that can be taken to maybe go some way to solving the problem-but all I see is excuses and obstacles-all of which worry about something other than the welfare of the child'


Your last point, yes it is my job to teach, I trained hard to become a teacher so why do you think you can tell me how to do it? And I would appreciate if you would answer my original question. How would you feel if you were told how to do your job by somebody who has no experience of doing it?

Feeona, I really didn't want to be drawn back into this but I really am astonished at your blatant refusal to see what I wrote instead of putting your own incorrect interpretations, assigning them to me and expecting a response - to things that I never said.
Example - I never "basically said that teachers should act as parents" - I posted what is on the recognised unions websites, I posted the definition and if you choose to interpret what is written in black and white as "teachers should act as parents" then you need to understand that it is you saying that - not me.

You then repost what I have written in previous posts, word for word, and the again assign your own incorrect interpretation and again expect me to answer?

If you read through my posts, there is nothing anywhere that could or should be construed as an insult towards any posters here and if there is then I am sure they will let me know and I can make any apology that is needed - but again, you have read some posts, assigned your own interpretation on them and accused me of something that I simply did not post.

And just to finish, you end your post asking me "who do you think you can tell me how to do my job", if there was ever a point in your career where a parent questioned your methods in regards to disciplining their child then I guarentee you would never, ever, say that to a parent, face to face.


Regards.

D4RK ONION

Just to remind people, "attack the post, NOT the poster". A few posters are brushing close to getting a yellow card warning, so I'd ask you to please be courteous to each other.

jpb1974

Hi E.T.

There's a complaints procedure which should be followed

There probably is but the school in question have never made any attempt to communicate this to parents so what results is the common sense approach... you talk to those responsible about the matter.

The school often requests that parents drop in for a chat, so why not vice versa?

It doesn't sound like the teacher is dealing with discipline well, but a couple of the mothers going in is a complete recipe for disaster - this could be seen as intimidation.

In my job I have people (customers) coming to me on a regular basis to talk about issues, it's part and parcel of the job... and good customer service is what any service provider should thrive on. Schools aren't really that different in this regard if you go back to basics.

Parents discussing issues with teachers is absolutely fundamental. It works both ways - teachers can discuss issues with the parents too.

The sad fact of the matter here is that the parents in question approached the principal to discuss the matter and were told that "he was too busy and didn't have time". He never told them "follow the formal complaints process" or anything to that effect.

I think the parents did the right thing. As a result of the meeting everyone seems to be happier now... the parents, the kids and the teacher. Having a chat doesn't necessarily equate to intimidation and sometimes if you're wrong, you're wrong and the easiest thing to do is put your hand up, accept that you're at fault and make amends to make things better... which is what it seems happens.

There's a time for formal procedures and there's a time for common sense and a good old face to face chat... and to be honest the formal complaints procedure that you posted more or less says this in the first two points.

My other half approached the teacher by herself and was more or less fobbed off, two parents then made an approach and we're listened to. Maybe it's a case of strength in numbers but I think the severity of what was going on called for this.

GoldenEarring

Daltonm, number 4 and number 6 in your guidelines are both titled "Detention". Are they different types?
In my long (very long!) experience I have noticed that the most cooperative and well-behaved pupils are the children of parents who support the teacher, do not have a chip on their shoulder, and have a positive attitude towards school and education.
Some parents are obsessed with watching every little detail and are ready to pounce on teachers ....they just cannot wait to catch you out. Unfortunately their own children suffer ultimately as what they fear turns into a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Guidelines are all very well but our principal for one has made it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that he does not want to be disturbed with classroom discipline issues that are not extremely serious.
The point is that most teachers can deal with these issues in an informal non-humiliating way and are reluctant to call in the heavy artillery for a minor skirmish.

jpb1974

I think everyone wants to support good, honest, decent teachers... I know I do.

But I would take exception to teachers that have kids sobbing on their way to school, who exclude kids from the curriculum as a form of punishment and use threats of being sent back to 1st class as a method of imposing their will.

We're only talking about one bad apple here mind. All of our young lads teachers were very good from Junior Infants through to 1st class. I went to the same school myself and have fond memories of all my teachers.

E.T.

jpb1974 there's a big difference between "Having a chat" and "a couple of the mother's approached the teacher in question and some serious words were had." Do you mean that the mothers approached the teacher individually or as a group?

It's disgraceful that the principal fobbed off parents too, that's just laziness and not doing their job properly. He/she should have told you about the complaints procedure and actually got the ball rolling. Nobody should protect staff when they're obviously in the wrong.

jpb1974

Being honest I wasn't there in person... it could have been nice as pie, it could have been quite heated... I'm only passing on what was told back to me.

I believe that two mothers went in together, this after my other half had made an approach and didn't get much airtime.

When I said "serious words were had" what I meant was that the situations were explained to the teacher in question and because these situations were quite serious then the words were by default (but as mentioned earlier I wasn't there so it could have been whispers or shouting for all I know - but let's not speculate). I think when the teacher stopped and reflected on what had passed she really felt the seriousness of the situation.

I sometimes help out kids with the local GAA club and if someone said to me that a chap was crying when he went home from training because I was pushing him too hard or something then I would treat those words as serious... irrespective of whether they were said to me with the best of intentions. You understand?

Aye... I was very let down by the dismissive attitude of the principal.

Look.. whatever was or wasn't said the fact of the matter is that the situation has now been resolved. Based on some feedback from our young lad the teacher seems a lot more pleasant and understanding with the kids now. It's a learning process for everyone really.

Feeona

daltonm wrote: »

Feeona, I really didn't want to be drawn back into this but I really am astonished at your blatant refusal to see what I wrote instead of putting your own incorrect interpretations, assigning them to me and expecting a response - to things that I never said.
Example - I never "basically said that teachers should act as parents" - I posted what is on the recognised unions websites, I posted the definition and if you choose to interpret what is written in black and white as "teachers should act as parents" then you need to understand that it is you saying that - not me.

You then repost what I have written in previous posts, word for word, and the again assign your own incorrect interpretation and again expect me to answer?

If you read through my posts, there is nothing anywhere that could or should be construed as an insult towards any posters here and if there is then I am sure they will let me know and I can make any apology that is needed - but again, you have read some posts, assigned your own interpretation on them and accused me of something that I simply did not post.

And just to finish, you end your post asking me "who do you think you can tell me how to do my job", if there was ever a point in your career where a parent questioned your methods in regards to disciplining their child then I guarentee you would never, ever, say that to a parent, face to face.


Regards.

Daltonm, you replied with the quote from the ASTI when another poster stated that teachers aren't parents. You don't think that quoting the ASTI in that instance means you think that teachers should be like parents. I believe you think that teachers should act as parents because of that quote. If you can clarify why you replied with the ASTI quote, then at least we won't just have my interpretation of your post.

I think my interpretation of your posts is correct. I quoted you because you said that you didn't think you were telling teachers how to discipline their classes. I see these quotes as proof that you think that highly trained teachers aren't disciplining classes in the correct manner.

In another post, you made the passive aggressive remark that some schools obviously don't have any rules. I asked you if you had encountered that in real life and you have yet again side stepped one of my questions.

And would you in real life go up to a teacher and say to them 'The way you are disciplining children is incorrect and you should follow the guidelines I think are suitable'?. If a parent came up to me and said that, I would let them know fairly swiftly that I'm trained to be a teacher and with all respect, they would only know the best ways to discipline the class if they had actually worked in a class. Luckily, I've never been asked such an question, most parents who have spoken to me have done so without a personal agenda in mind.

Added to that, your final remark is very personal. I have never had a problem with any parent in any school I have worked in. Most parents are decent hard-working people who care for the welfare of their child, and I would do my utmost to help any parent if they're worried about their child and his/her progress. I, however, have every right to stand up for what I believe in and will not be brow beaten into accepting criticism of my professionalism in the class by people who have never done the job themselves.

Feeona

jpb1974 wrote: »

Look.. whatever was or wasn't said the fact of the matter is that the situation has now been resolved. Based on some feedback from our young lad the teacher seems a lot more pleasant and understanding with the kids now. It's a learning process for everyone really.

Good to hear it was all resolved. It can be very worrying to see your child going into school upset, especially if they usually enjoy going into school.

D4RK ONION

Feeona, daltonm has made it clear that he no longer wishes to participate in that particular discussion, and while I don't agree with his arguments, it isn't fair of you to continue to drag him back in to the discussion. I think he has made his conclusions and expressed his side of the discussion and we should leave it at that.

Thanks

Nevyn

We had my daughter's new teacher pulling this stunt, P.E. is on a Monday and if the previous week the class as a whole got X amount of black marks P.E. was cancelled for the whole class. A visit to the School's principal asking why a section of the curriculum was being with held quickly put a stop it.

D4RK ONION

Thaedydal wrote: »

We had my daughter's new teacher pulling this stunt, P.E. is on a Monday and if the previous week the class as a whole got X amount of black marks P.E. was cancelled for the whole class. A visit to the School's principal asking why a section of the curriculum was being with held quickly put a stop it.

Too right Thaedydal. P.E. is as important as English or Maths and no teacher has the authority to remove that right to a rounded education.

RibenaHead

Thaedydal wrote: »

We had my daughter's new teacher pulling this stunt, P.E. is on a Monday and if the previous week the class as a whole got X amount of black marks P.E. was cancelled for the whole class. A visit to the School's principal asking why a section of the curriculum was being with held quickly put a stop it.

I can't believe teachers like this manage to qualify! That's crazy!

dambarude

RibenaHead wrote: »

I can't believe teachers like this manage to qualify! That's crazy!

It's crazy but it's common. It happened all the time when I was in primary school, and evidently it's still happening.

What's worse is when teachers don't even try to teach specific subject areas. I was in primary school for four years of the new 1999 curriculum, and I was never taught drama once. We did SPHE about once every two months, and the PE curriculum consisted of swimming/basketball/soccer or Gaelic football. Not a mention of the other strands (dance/gymnastics/athletics). But all that is off topic for this thread!

E.T.

dambarude wrote: »

It's crazy but it's common. It happened all the time when I was in primary school, and evidently it's still happening.

What's worse is when teachers don't even try to teach specific subject areas. I was in primary school for four years of the new 1999 curriculum, and I was never taught drama once. We did SPHE about once every two months, and the PE curriculum consisted of swimming/basketball/soccer or Gaelic football. Not a mention of the other strands (dance/gymnastics/athletics). But all that is off topic for this thread!

I have to admit I don't teach all of the gymnastics strand of the p.e. curriculum. There's no way I'm prepared to teach children to "practise rocking and rolling activities leading to the forward roll". It's just not safe with a large class, including children with physical and co-ordination problems. Fine in a small class, taught by someone who is absolutely comfortable with gymnastics and is really familiar with it from a young age. Usually if there's something I'm not sure about teaching I'll go and learn more about it, but in this case I think it's a safety issue. I doubt any gymnastics teacher would even dream of taking a class of 25+ four to seven year olds.

GoldenEarring

The curriculum is totally overloaded. How is one human being expected to cover all of those subjects on her own with 30 plus children (including differentiating for different ability levels and needs)?
The level demanded by the curriculum would be fine if teachers could specialise in particular subjects as they do in secondary schools, but it is not realistic in primary school.
Do you really expect an ordinary teacher to be skilled in Music, Drama, PE, SPHE, IT/Computers, Art and Craft, History, Geography, Science, Green Issues, Irish, English, Religion, Maths etc etc? You'd want to be superman/superwoman.
Many teachers have strenghts in certain areas eg Music or It, but few excel in them all.
No wonder so few men go for primary teaching. Many teachers now are women trying to be good mothers to their own children too.

The curriculum books were written by people who forgot that primary teachers have to teach ALL subjects every day/week. They wrote them as if theirs was the only subject.
Teachers do the best they can to deliver the curriculum despite having the 2nd largest classes in Europe and most under-resourced schools.
And Irish children are not noted particularly for being well-behaved and respectful towards teachers.

dambarude

I accept all of what your saying, and there's every chance that I'll be saying the same before long, but I don't think it's right to completely leave out a particular subject, or teach it so rarely that it may as well be left anyway.

It's probably unrealistic to think that a full hour of music and a full hour of drama will be taught each week, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taught at all.

spurious

It's one of the basics from teacher training (or it was in my day) that you do not use school work as a punishment for bad behaviour - either giving extra or denying access to. This is where monotonous 'useless' tasks such as lines come from.

Giving kids school work as a punishment just tells them it is something to hate, withdrawing it from them tells them it was never really worthwhile in the first place.