Downton Abbey

pinkypinky

I reckon Barrow might try to kill himself.

angeleyes

leahyl wrote: »

Does anybody think there is actually a chance that Branson and Mary will get together? I think they'd be a great match but I don't know, I can't see it happening...

I think that is going to happen myself. :P

jezzer

I found the first two episodes of the final series pretty bad, they certainly are winding down, the mr mason story and the hospital are meaningless but i know they are aiming to show how the times are changing....delighted to see Tom return, he was a big loss to the show

anyone know why anna can be called anna but mrs hughes has to be called mrs hughes?

also anyone know what mary meant when she said to the racing car driver that her son will inherit lord granthams title and that it was complicated? was it because her and matthew were cousins? mary sees the son for about 5 minutes before dinner and thats it!!

syklops

pinkypinky wrote: »

I reckon Barrow might try to kill himself.

On the one hand it would be nice if he could find happiness. On the other hand he is a bastard.

Not sure how I feel about Branson(shouldn't we now call him Tom?) and Mary.

jezzer

syklops wrote: »

On the one hand it would be nice if he could find happiness. On the other hand he is a bastard.

Not sure how I feel about Branson(shouldn't we now call him Tom?) and Mary.

barrow is a hateful pr*ck, expects everyone to love him but is only a c*nt to them all

somesoldiers

jezzer wrote: »

anyone know why anna can be called anna but mrs hughes has to be called mrs hughes?

good question, seniority I suppose. Also what happened Mr Hughes?

pixel pixie

jezzer wrote: »

anyone know why anna can be called anna but mrs hughes has to be called mrs hughes?

also anyone know what mary meant when she said to the racing car driver that her son will inherit lord granthams title and that it was complicated? was it because her and matthew were cousins? mary sees the son for about 5 minutes before dinner and thats it!!

The housekeeper is always Mrs Something. A lady's maid is always their surname (O'Brien, Baxter). Anna was head housemaid then was pretty much promoted to Lady Mary's lady's maid but by this stage there was Mr Bates and instead of confusing everyone with Mr Bates and Bates, Anna suggested or agreed to continue to be called Anna.

George will inherit everything because girls weren't allowed, this is one of the main themes of the first season. Lord Grantham's first heir was a closer cousin who died on the Titanic. Then they found Matthew who is a distant cousin but the closest male relative on the male line. If Matthew had not died, he would inherit the house, land and title whether he married Mary or not. If George had been a girl and Matthew died, they'd have to find the next closest male relative after Matthew. Even if Sibbie or Marigold were born boys, they couldn't inherit because they're not of the male line.

pixel pixie

somesoldiers wrote: »

good question, seniority I suppose. Also what happened Mr Hughes?

There was no Mr Hughes. Housekeepers were always Mrs. whether they're married or not.

njs030

pixel pixie wrote: »

George will inherit everything because girls weren't allowed, this is one of the main themes of the first season. Lord Grantham's first heir was a closer cousin who died on the Titanic. Then they found Matthew who is a distant cousin but the closest male relative on the male line. If Matthew had not died, he would inherit the house, land and title whether he married Mary or not. If George had been a girl and Matthew died, they'd have to find the next closest male relative after Matthew. Even if Sibbie or Marigold were born boys, they couldn't inherit because they're not of the male line

They couldn't inherit because Lord Granthams family had an entail- it's like a will that only allows the title and land to be passed to legitimate male heirs....ironically the greatest title in England - the King or Queen can be inherited through women. Prince Charles, Prince William and so on will all inherit the English throne through female descent. As did the Stuart kings-their female ancestor was Henry VII's daughter. Henry VII himself had a tenuous claim to the throne through his mother and her female ancestors though he won it on the battlefield to seal the deal.

You'd think if it was good enough for royalty it would be good enough for the Granthams!!

Radio5

pinkypinky wrote: »

I reckon Barrow might try to kill himself.

I think that's likely. He's much more prominent this series so it has to be leading somewhere.

Does anyone else think Cora's character has gone downhill or is being written that way? She seems to be just a sideline to most things, like the infernal Hospital row, the Drews & yew Tree Farm and Mr. Mason, observations on her husband's health etc. The Cora of old would have Dr. Clarkson visit and sort out Robert's medical issues in double quick time but she just sighs and says very little.

The most Cora has had to do is be nasty to Mrs Hughes for trying on her coat and then have to apologise later because Mary had sanctioned it all along.

jezzer

somesoldiers wrote: »

good question, seniority I suppose. Also what happened Mr Hughes?

yes, she was obviously married before but this was never mentioned?

jezzer

notjustsweet wrote: »

They couldn't inherit because Lord Granthams family had an entail- it's like a will that only allows the title and land to be passed to legitimate male heirs....ironically the greatest title in England - the King or Queen can be inherited through women. Prince Charles, Prince William and so on will all inherit the English throne through female descent. As did the Stuart kings-their female ancestor was Henry VII's daughter. Henry VII himself had a tenuous claim to the throne through his mother and her female ancestors though he won it on the battlefield to seal the deal.

You'd think if it was good enough for royalty it would be good enough for the Granthams!!

So, essentially, if the nearest male heir inherits everything, that means that the estate could actually slip away from the actual family? what happens in the case of the women? presumably married off into another wealthy family?

pixel pixie

jezzer wrote: »

yes, she was obviously married before but this was never mentioned?

Mrs Hughes has never been married. She tells her ex boyfriend this sometime in the middle of the first season. She just uses Mrs. as all housekeepers do.

njs030

jezzer wrote: »

So, essentially, if the nearest male heir inherits everything, that means that the estate could actually slip away from the actual family? what happens in the case of the women? presumably married off into another wealthy family?

Yes it will pass to cousins and their cousins and so on as needed.
In Downton Abbey if Matthew had been married with male children when they found him the eldest boy would have been granted the title (ifwhen both the current Lord Grantham and Matthew died) which would mean the current Lord Grantham would have very little blood- relationship to the Lord Grantham 2-3 generations down! It explains the obsession with having sons very well I think.

Yes the women would just marry someone suitable.
Lady Sybil once said something along the lines of how she is the third daughter so wouldn't marry particularly well anyway. I think it was around the time herself and Tom got together.

pixel pixie

jezzer wrote: »

So, essentially, if the nearest male heir inherits everything, that means that the estate could actually slip away from the actual family? what happens in the case of the women? presumably married off into another wealthy family?

Yes, essentially. That's why people were so intent on Mary marrying first the cousin from the Titanic and then Matthew.

If Matthew had survived and married Lavinia instead he could kick Cora, Mary and the rest of them out of the Abbey and move himself in once the current Lord Grantham dies.

If Matthew & Lavinia had a son, he'd then inherit the title and the estate from Matthew and Mary etc might only get an allowance.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

pixel pixie wrote: »

Mrs Hughes has never been married. She tells her ex boyfriend this sometime in the middle of the first season. She just uses Mrs. as all housekeepers do.

Mrs. Pattmore another example. Never been married but is still a Mrs. as she's the head cook.

Oliverdog

Barrow, wild with power during his spell as Butler, uses the expression "you should have run it by me" when admonishing an underling. Sloppy dialogue from an Oscar winner, about 50 years before time.

somesoldiers

Wow... is this Downton or The Walking Dead?

Ghost Train

Downtons great with it's self-spoilers

First the warning of lots of blood and then showing clip at the end from next weeks episode so you don't need to worry about how things will turn out

jezzer

pixel pixie wrote: »

Yes, essentially. That's why people were so intent on Mary marrying first the cousin from the Titanic and then Matthew.

If Matthew had survived and married Lavinia instead he could kick Cora, Mary and the rest of them out of the Abbey and move himself in once the current Lord Grantham dies.

If Matthew & Lavinia had a son, he'd then inherit the title and the estate from Matthew and Mary etc might only get an allowance.

wow, so an estate could slip away from a family quite easily, this is obviously why they didnt really care about cousins marrying

FloatingVoter

jezzer wrote: »

wow, so an estate could slip away from a family quite easily, this is obviously why they didnt really care about cousins marrying

Yeah, and they were often lost at gambling tables by feckless idiots who by accident of birth had a valid claim. Even when the inheritance was treated with respect it was subject to inheritance tax that burdened even well managed and profitable estates. Add to that the better hours and wages in factories and scholarships opening a road for Downstairs into the professions and upper middle classes for the very smart (who previously would have risen to the lofty heights of Carson or Mrs Hughes).
A couple of world wars and the need for women workers which in turn proved to everyone but the most blinkered misogynist that women could do any of the traditional male jobs.
It was a lot easier by the end of WWII to just sell the bloody thing to the highest bidder and retire on the proceeds to the house in London. Maybe marry the title to some American cash and party with movie stars. Better that than worry about pig breeding and leaky roofs. I'd sell up and out and so would most faced with the choice of damp manor or warm penthouse.

jezzer

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Yeah, and they were often lost at gambling tables by feckless idiots who by accident of birth had a valid claim. Even when the inheritance was treated with respect it was subject to inheritance tax that burdened even well managed and profitable estates. Add to that the better hours and wages in factories and scholarships opening a road for Downstairs into the professions and upper middle classes for the very smart (who previously would have risen to the lofty heights of Carson or Mrs Hughes).
A couple of world wars and the need for women workers which in turn proved to everyone but the most blinkered misogynist that women could do any of the traditional male jobs.
It was a lot easier by the end of WWII to just sell the bloody thing to the highest bidder and retire on the proceeds to the house in London. Maybe marry the title to some American cash and party with movie stars. Better that than worry about pig breeding and leaky roofs. I'd sell up and out and so would most faced with the choice of damp manor or warm penthouse.

what signaled the end of these big estates, as shown in downton at the moment, they were on the way out, what made this different from the previous 50 years? was it because servants were harder to come by and demanded more wages or they would go and get work in a factory or elsewhere? it looks like none of the gentry worked, they must have been bored out of their heads, hanging around the house all day and what was the point in getting dressed up every single evening just to eat dinner with your family?? they had such purposeless lives.....edith drives me mad, always moaning about having no purpose then when asked if she would be the editor of the magazine she said no! she bloody wants it every way..

pinkypinky

Well, the industrial revolution & WWI were the big differences. Proper education for the masses too.
Also, a system which excludes all children except the eldest son from proper inheritance was always going to breed itself out.

Eugene Norman

jezzer wrote: »

what signaled the end of these big estates, as shown in downton at the moment, they were on the way out, what made this different from the previous 50 years? was it because servants were harder to come by and demanded more wages or they would go and get work in a factory or elsewhere? it looks like none of the gentry worked, they must have been bored out of their heads, hanging around the house all day and what was the point in getting dressed up every single evening just to eat dinner with your family?? they had such purposeless lives.....edith drives me mad, always moaning about having no purpose then when asked if she would be the editor of the magazine she said no! she bloody wants it every way..

Well it's been answered.

1) inheritance tax
2) better jobs for the servants causing massive wage inflation (a good thing)
3) reduced prices for food -- their major product -- relatively. Also a good thing.

There are still super rich families hanging on. The royals. Other aristocrats like the devonshires.

FloatingVoter

pinkypinky wrote: »

Well, the industrial revolution & WWI were the big differences. Proper education for the masses too.
Also, a system which excludes all children except the eldest son from proper inheritance was always going to breed itself out.

Yup, forget the aristocracy...in Victorian Britain if I'm a self made man with a daughter as my sole beneficiary - then she marries some drunk with a gambling issue, good luck to my legacy. I can set up a trust to benefit the next generation and bypass him - that's if I'm smart enough to see what's coming.
Forget the fictional Downton and watch the Alex Kingston episode of Who Do You Think You Are for a lesson in this aspect of Victorian inheritance law. Do watch, no fake weeping and brothels in .

jezzer

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Well it's been answered.

1) inheritance tax
2) better jobs for the servants causing massive wage inflation (a good thing)
3) reduced prices for food -- their major product -- relatively. Also a good thing.

There are still super rich families hanging on. The royals. Other aristocrats like the devonshires.

so essentially their product became unsustainable, which was farming, food prices fell, labour prices rose and i guess the fact that most of them were good for nothing as they had everything handed to them

Asarlai

I fancy Barrow, but I'm in love with Lady Mary.

jezzer

Asarlai wrote: »

I fancy Barrow, but I'm in love with Lady Mary.

thats messed up

cowboyBuilder

So there was a warning about the bloody scene with Grantham ?

somesoldiers

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

So there was a warning about the bloody scene with Grantham ?

"Viewers may find some scenes disturbing" on ITV

cowboyBuilder

Anyway, they go on about Lord Grantham being stressed thats how he got the Ulcer ... it's ridicoulous, what does he do all day ?
apart from wander around the grounds,drinking brandy and shooting grouse ?

syklops

I think thats very infair, especially how the last two pages of comments was about how and why these estates ended.

FloatingVoter

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Anyway, they go on about Lord Grantham being stressed thats how he got the Ulcer ... it's ridicoulous, what does he do all day ?
apart from wander around the grounds,drinking brandy and shooting grouse ?

He's running a medium sized business - and he could make half the staff redundant in the morning due to his ability to dress himself and keep a diary. There went the underbutler and the twenty footmen. Given his army experience I'll even lay money he could knock out a dinner for one but social rank means he does need a professional cook.
It's about looking after what he was given and ensuring it passes intact to the next generation. At some point it is time to say stop and it does happen to be about now.

syklops

Watching the most recent episode now. Is it really the end of the horrid Denka?

Also, hosting the Minister of Health for dinner is easily an excuse for added stress.

jezzer

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Anyway, they go on about Lord Grantham being stressed thats how he got the Ulcer ... it's ridicoulous, what does he do all day ?
apart from wander around the grounds,drinking brandy and shooting grouse ?

isnt it so true, the man doesnt even dress himself, he doesnt have a job to commute to, doesnt cook, clean, work, dress himself, maintain the gardens, work on the farm....i'd like to see him operate in modern times, mary and edith, spend about twenty minutes before dinner with the kids, they litterally do nothing.

in last nights episode, would Branson really shake the hand of neville chamberlain? it wasnt long ago he was fighting with the rebels back in Ireland, whatever about getting on with the non political gentry, there is no way an irishman of the time would be so friendly towards a member of the british parliment

syklops

jezzer wrote: »

in last nights episode, would Branson really shake the hand of neville chamberlain? it wasnt long ago he was fighting with the rebels back in Ireland, whatever about getting on with the non political gentry, there is no way an irishman of the time would be so friendly towards a member of the british parliment

You do remember he married a member of the non-political gentry?

Isnt it so true, the man doesnt even dress himself, he doesnt have a job to commute to, doesnt cook, clean, work, dress himself, maintain the gardens, work on the farm....i'd like to see him operate in modern times, mary and edith, spend about twenty minutes before dinner with the kids, they litterally do nothing.

He does work. He runs the estate.

FloatingVoter

Michael Collins got on with Churchill when they met (despite or because at various points each had wanted the other dead). Brendan Bracken was one of the most trusted figure in the same Churchill's inner circle a few years later.
On a less stellar level, plenty of Irish people made their living in Britain during those years and political views were best left to those back home. Rescuing the minister for health from an awkward social situation would be seen as good manners and not a betrayal of some lofty principal.

jezzer

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Michael Collins got on with Churchill when they met (despite or because at various points each had wanted the other dead). Brendan Bracken was one of the most trusted figure in the same Churchill's inner circle a few years later.
On a less stellar level, plenty of Irish people made their living in Britain during those years and political views were best left to those back home. Rescuing the minister for health from an awkward social situation would be seen as good manners and not a betrayal of some lofty principal.

But you would imagine branson would have made some reference to the irish situation as we know that he was against british occupation of Ireland

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jezzer wrote: »

But you would imagine branson would have made some reference to the irish situation as we know that he was against british occupation of Ireland

Why would he have made a reference about Ireland to the minister for health? Plus we're post independence now, aren't we? Why would he bring it up?

There was plenty of mention of it in earlier series when it was actually relevant.

syklops

jezzer wrote: »

But you would imagine branson would have made some reference to the irish situation as we know that he was against british occupation of Ireland

Its 1925. Not only is it post the War of Independence, its post the Civil War, so what Irish situation do you mean?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

syklops wrote: »

Its 1925. Not only is it post the War of Independence, its post the Civil War, so what Irish situation do you mean?

I remember them mentioning the Civil War specifically because they got it wrong. It was the War of Independence that was ongoing at the time but they were calling it the Civil War.

syklops

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I remember them mentioning the Civil War specifically because they got it wrong. It was the War of Independence that was ongoing at the time but they were calling it the Civil War.

You could put that down to general ignorance and apathy to what was happening in Ireland at the time. Its not like there was a nightly bulletin on Sky radio for them to listen to.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

syklops wrote: »

You could put that down to general ignorance and apathy to what was happening in Ireland at the time. Its not like there was a nightly bulletin on Sky radio for them to listen to.

Or general ignorance and apathy from the scriptwriters....

Anyway... point being, they have referenced Ireland a few times when it was relevant.

syklops

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Or general ignorance and apathy from the scriptwriters....

To be honest I doubt that, they are so diligent with nearly all aspects of the historical themes. Fellowes is still on board and he is a very knowledgeable historian. Can you remember when roughly that error was made?

Of course mistakes do happen, but I'd be surprised if something like mixing up to wars, however trivial to the gentry was accidental.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

syklops wrote: »

To be honest I doubt that, they are so diligent with nearly all aspects of the historical themes. Fellowes is still on board and he is a very knowledgeable historian. Can you remember when roughly that error was made?

Can't remember exactly but quite early on. I have a feeling it was the Dowager Countess talking to someone, maybe even Tom, at the railway station. Can't remember exactly but I do remember thinking that's not right, the Civil War was after the treaty.

jezzer

syklops wrote: »

Its 1925. Not only is it post the War of Independence, its post the Civil War, so what Irish situation do you mean?

the irish situation that tom had gotten involved in and had himself banished from ireland for life....i mean, any irishman at the time who just so happened to be in the company of a british minister, of course you were going to ask the inevitable....what was it all for?

syklops

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Can't remember exactly but quite early on. I have a feeling it was the Dowager Countess talking to someone, maybe even Tom, at the railway station. Can't remember exactly but I do remember thinking that's not right, the Civil War was after the treaty.

That doesnt narrow it down much. I'll have to watch it all over again and come back to you. Such a heavy cross to bear. :pac:

pinkypinky

It's beside the point, but Neville Chamberlain's brother was actually one of the Treaty signatories.

Tom's days as a revolutionary are long gone; it wouldn't make any sense, particularly the context of a sudden family illness, for him to be taking on a minister about Ireland...

njs030

jezzer wrote: »

the irish situation that tom had gotten involved in and had himself banished from ireland for life....i mean, any irishman at the time who just so happened to be in the company of a british minister, of course you were going to ask the inevitable....what was it all for?

It would be incredibly bad manners for Tom to be rude to a guest in the Grantham's house, especially as he is considered part of the family.

Perhaps he didn't want to embarrass his in-laws who are so generous to him and his daughter!!

Edited to add that there already has been a storyline about Tom making his feelings known about Ireland and planning to cause problems for a guest.
It would be pretty dull if the series kept going over old ground.

jezzer

notjustsweet wrote: »

It would be incredibly bad manners for Tom to be rude to a guest in the Grantham's house, especially as he is considered part of the family.

Perhaps he didn't want to embarrass his in-laws who are so generous to him and his daughter!!

Edited to add that there already has been a storyline about Tom making his feelings known about Ireland and planning to cause problems for a guest.
It would be pretty dull if the series kept going over old ground.

I guess so, either way, the show is not the same without tom in it! also if they were ever to make another michael collins pic, he would make a great collins