Fuse box in hot press

imitation

Hi

What are peoples opinions on a fuse board in a new houses hot press ? The way its working out the wiring will be coming into the house via the hotpress so its the handiest spot. I'm kind of on the fence about it, I can't see any huge issues as a hot press shouldn't be damp and there wouldnt be any risk of it getting wet if it was wall mounted. On the other hand, there might be plenty of nice dry flammable cloth in there should there be fault.

KoolKid

It's not allowed.

Buford T Justice

+1
Against Regs

2011

Not a good idea because:
1) high ambient temperature
2) there are plenty of pipes that could leak!
3) not very accessible
4) clothes ate dried the so there can be moisture in the air
5) as others have said against the regs so no certification possible
6) This would devalue a house!

2011

The way its working out the wiring will be coming into the house via the hotpress

This is not permitted either

paddy147

House alarm panels are not allowed in a hot press either.

imitation

Thanks for the replys guys, clearly a no go.

2011 wrote: »

This is not permitted either

Could you be more specific on whats not allowed ? I'm guessing they will be boxed off in a corner and kept sealed as they run through the room.

KoolKid

paddy147 wrote: »

House alarm panels are not allowed in a hot press either.

To be precise its mains power which is not allowed.
You can have an alarm panel there powered by a power supply outside the hot press.

paddy147

koolkid wrote: »

To be precise its mains power which is not allowed.
You can have an alarm panel there powered by a power supply outside the hot press.

Well all I know is that 3 different alarm companies told me that I couldnt have the alarm panell in the hot press,that it wasnt allowed to be in there (where it was when I bought the house originally).So my house was rewired and the new alarm panel is now in a safer/better location now,than the hot press..

KoolKid

Where did the relocate the panel to & how much did they charge you for that privledge?
Remove the mains & the battery from the panel & relocate in an external tampered power supply. From there send the low voltage AS or DC to the panel on a single alarm cable.
Now all thats in the hot press is 12vdc or 18vac . Perfectly safe.

paddy147

koolkid wrote: »

Where did the relocate the panel to & how much did they charge you for that privledge?
Remove the mains & the battery from the panel & relocate in an external tampered power supply. From there send the low voltage AS or DC to the panel on a single alarm cable.
Now all thats in the hot press is 12vdc or 18vac . Perfectly safe.

Im not going to mention prices,but it was very very reasonable,in fact very very very reasonable indeed.Best price by a mile infact.Very professional,neat and tidy instalation done by Altor.

The new alarm panel,mains power supply and back up battery are all in a place that you wouldnt think of looking,and very much out of the way too.But still perfectly accessable for any future servicing or work required.:)

KoolKid

Altor would have done a good job at the right price alright.:)
Its important to note that the mains in the hot press is the regulation not the alarm panel itself.
Myself & Altor bashed all this out a while back, here.

danjo

Interesting regs - no mains in the hotpress. So what about an immersion element or a cylinder stat?

Solair

danjo wrote: »

Interesting regs - no mains in the hotpress. So what about an immersion element or a cylinder stat?

I think the general idea is that you should avoid unnecessary electrics in the airing cupboard / hotpress.

I would actually be more concerned about mechanical damage to cables in a hotpress potentially causing fire. They really should require trunking as people drag clothes around and it could quite easily rip a cable out terminals.

KoolKid

Always in trunking or fished behind the plaster board.

M cebee

danjo wrote: »

Interesting regs - no mains in the hotpress. So what about an immersion element or a cylinder stat?

where would you be goin puttin them outside:D

2011

Always in trunking or fished behind the plaster board.

Surface trunking would not be permitted as this is still in the hot press. Behind the plasterboard would be fine as it is within the wall of the hot press and therefore not inside the hot press.

So what about an immersion element or a cylinder stat?

No problem. The regulation are quite clear on this. Below is a direct quotation from the latest edition of the "National Rules for Electrical Installations" (4th edition ET101:2008 page 139).

"5556.1 Electrical equipment in domestic airing cupboards and similar enclosures shall be confined to the following:

-an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems."

I can not see how this would permit an alarm panel to be installed there under any circumstances as it is "electrical equipment" and it is not an immersion heater or "auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems".

But that is my opinion, others are entitled to their opinion

altor

koolkid wrote: »

You can have an alarm panel there powered by a power supply outside the hot press.

Can you give us something to back up your claim that it can be installed there ?
Did you ever get the letter of the NSAI to say you could upgrade the alarm panel back into the hot press?

altor

2011 wrote: »

Surface trunking would not be permitted as this is still in the hot press. Behind the plasterboard would be fine as it is within the wall of the hot press and therefore not inside the hot press.



No problem. The regulation are quite clear on this. Below is a direct quotation from the latest edition of the "National Rules for Electrical Installations" (4th edition ET101:2008 page 139).

"5556.1 Electrical equipment in domestic an airing cupboards and similar enclosures shall be confined to the following:

-an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems."

I can not see how this would permit an alarm panel to be installed there under any circumstances as it is "electrical equipment" and it is not an immersion heater or "auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems".

But that is my opinion, others are entitled to their opinion

I agree 2011. As far as I am concerned plus its good to see that other alarm companys agree, it cant go in the hot press.

KoolKid

I have discussed this with inspectors before. If there is no mains power in the panel its not electrical equipment as far as I can see.
With 12 volts dc its more like a battery light etc.
What it gets down to is defining what is electrical equipment?
Is it mains power or any electrical power?

altor wrote: »

Can you give us something to back up your claim that it can be installed there ?

Did you ever get the letter of the NSAI to say you could upgrade the alarm panel back into the hot press?

I have an inspectors report with nonconformities listed.
I am not going over the same issues we have already debated. I really think its down to the questions above on whether low voltage only would be classed as electrical equipment.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

I have discussed this with inspectors before. If there is no mains power in the panel its not electrical equipment as far as I can see.
With 12 volts dc its more like a battery light etc.
What it gets down to is defining what is electrical equipment?
Is it mains power or any electrical power?


I have an inspectors report with nonconformities listed.
I am not going over the same issues we have already debated. I really think its down to the questions above on whether low voltage only would be classed as electrical equipment.

Thats a no then.
I am not debating, just asking if you did get the clarification.

M cebee

230v is low voltage:pac:

i reckon it prob is -'apparatus that utilises electrical energy'

according to the etci definition -could be wrong though


2011 will know!!:D

KoolKid

M cebee wrote: »

230v is low voltage:pac:

I was referring to the control panel being powered by a power supply outside of the hot press.

2011

What it gets down to is defining what is electrical equipment?

I agree.
As it happens the National Rules for Electrical Installations give a definition on page 12 so that there can be no ambiguity:

"Electrical equipment: Any item used for purposes as generation, conversion, transmission, distribution or utilisation of electrical energy, such as machines, transformers, apparatus, measuring instruments, protective devices, equipment for wiring systems and appliances"

I really think its down to the questions above on whether low voltage only would be classed as electrical equipment.

As can be seen above voltage is not mentioned in the definition. The only possible conclusion that can be drawn from this is that the fact that the alarm panel uses 12VDC is irrelevant.

Therefore in my opinion we can conclude with confidence that:
1) This definition applies to alarm panels.
2) An alarm panel is a piece of electrical equipment.
3) Rule 5556.1 applies to alarm panels
4) Alarm panels are not permitted to be installed in hot presses under the 4th edition of ET101:2008

KoolKid

Thanks for that 2011.
I think this need to be discussed further with the NSAI.
Whose word from the NSAI should we take, if an inspector is not good enough?

edit:
Just an aftertought on this. Would an alarm detector be allowed in a hotpress?
Heat detector, smoke detector PiR etc?
What about what about a battery light?
There has to be some cut off point?
If voltage is not an issue would leaving my ipod or a radio on in the hotpress be against regs?

2011

Thanks for that 2011.

You are welcome

Whose word from the NSAI should we take, if an inspector is not good enough?

In my opinion the NSAI like the rest of us have to comply with the National Rules for Electrical Installations. Therefore they do not have the authority to give anyone permission to ignore any part of ET101

If you ring the ETCI I am sure they would clarify this for you. I have had to deal with them before and I have found them very helpful.

Would an alarm detector be allowed in a hotpress?
Heat detector, smoke detector PiR etc?

In my opinion these are not permitted as they fit the above definition.

Why don't you write a letter to the ETCI stating what rules you think should be changed?

This is how rules get changed; people working in various aspects of the electrical industry suggest sensible changes and back them up with hard facts and sound reasoning.

You may then be responsible for having aspects of future editions of ET101 changed. Personally I would find that quite satisfying.

What about what about a battery light?

I think this would be outside the scope of the regulations (unless it was part of a central battery system)

If voltage is not an issue would leaving my ipod or a radio on in the hotpress be against regs?

Ditto

There has to be some cut off point?

There is. The cut off point is what is within and what is outside of the scope of ET101

ET101 only applies to what the scope says it applies to.

Part 1 of ET101 on page 1 details exactly what the scope is. From reading this my interpretation is that items such as iPods can not be described as being part of an electrical installation (which is also defined by the way!). I think that if you were somehow installing an iPod in the hot press you would be technically breaking the regulations.

Koolkid: All of the posts on this are my opinion based on what I have read. I have quoted where appropriate to try to show why I believe this. I may be wrong, as I was on another thread recently as Robbie can confirm! What do you think?

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Koolkid: All of the posts on this are my opinion based on what I have read. I have quoted where appropriate to try to show why I believe this. I may be wrong, as I was on another thread recently as Robbie can confirm! What do you think?

I dont think anything should be installed in the hotpress myself except the immersion.

Is the immersion switch itself allowed in the hotpress now, or is it to be outside it?

KoolKid

Thanks again 2011. I think there are some interesting points to be argued on this.
I will refer to the contacts provided and the NSAI for some definitive clarifications on this.

Red Alert

I take it a fused spur for a boiler and another one for a power shower pump taken from the Immersion switch all inside the hot press are also against regs :eek:

M cebee

you're allowed spur off for a pump -that type of thing

but not a power shower etc.

don't have the rules handy

Red Alert

Didn't think so, both were done previously by "cowboys" to say the least.