Fuse box in hot press

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 12:37pm

Just to get back to this point. I have been in communication with ETCI.
Here are the highlights of that.

I asked:

I am looking for some clarification on the following:
(4th edition ET101:2008 page 139).

"5556.1 Electrical equipment in domestic an airing cupboards and similar enclosures shall be confined to the following:
-an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems."

The existing system is a prewired house with the alarm control panel in the hot press upstairs.
There are 2 proposals:
The first proposal is to replace the main control panel but to house the mains power supply & battery beside the main consumer unit in the hallway.
In this proposal there would be only low voltage circuitry housed in the hot press.
The second would be to locate the new alarm panel & power supply beside the consumer unit in the hallway & locate a Line Expander Module in the hot press to utilise the existing prewiring in place.
Is there any definition as to what voltage (if any is acceptable in the locations referred to in 556.1?
Is a low voltage LED light acceptable for example?
Is the same voltage allowed if it were battery only?

Their response was:

Colm,

The National Rules deal with the electrical (power)installation. In airing cupboards, there is no distinction between low voltage (230V) and Extra -low voltage equipment <50V a.c. The dangwer is the build-up of heat which could cause fire hazard However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment. Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.

Looks like we were all wrong

fred funk }{ · 13-10-2010 2:14pm

Well done Koolkid, good stuff.

On a side note, are they not contradicting themselves by stating...

5556.1 Electrical equipment in domestic an airing cupboards and similar enclosures shall be confined to the following:
-an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems

The National Rules deal with the electrical (power)installation. In airing cupboards, there is no distinction between low voltage (230V) and Extra -low voltage equipment <50V a.c. The dangwer is the build-up of heat which could cause fire hazard However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment. Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.

The standard says that electrical equipment shall be confined to -an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems but then they state that 'he Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment).

Is that not a contradiction? maybe they changed the rules after the standard was written.

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 2:50pm

About as contradictory as saying a 5amp fused spur is dangerous but the immersion power isn't.

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 3:03pm

The regs are goin mad, it will be a 6 month job to wire a house the way its going.

13-10-2010 3:40pm

Myself and koolkid have had a few PMs on this recently. I am surprised, but the ETCI are the last word on this.

I put my hands up, I was wrong.

Congradulations koolkid!

I thought I had you:D

It does seem strange though

M cebee · 13-10-2010 3:57pm

i'm not fully convinced by that answer

ETCI or not

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 4:00pm

Well maybe the ETCI should have an office in the vatican so they can really be infallible.

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 4:04pm

M cebee wrote: »

i'm not fully convinced by that answer

ETCI or not

So if not The NSAI , EQA or ETCI ,Who will you believe & I will get onto them??

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 4:04pm

koolkid wrote: »

Looks like we were all wrong

Of course we are all wrong, we are only the installers:rolleyes:

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 4:08pm

koolkid wrote: »

So if not The NSAI , EQA or ETCI ,Who will you believe & I will get onto them??

Well in fairness to others i think it is a bit contradictory just the same. We dont need to be the mighty ETCI to see that do we. Some people will accept whatever they say, others will say they are not convinced.

M cebee · 13-10-2010 4:14pm

they're saying that alarm ,communication equipment-LV or ELV

is outside the scope of the rules

-even though it seems to meet the definition of electrical equipment

and you can fit it wherever you like presumably

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 4:18pm

Within the confines of EN50131.Yes.
It is also interesting to note that outside of a new build ,only complete rewires & extensions are governed by this.

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 4:27pm

koolkid wrote: »

Within the confines of EN50131.Yes.
It is also interesting to note that outside of a new build ,only complete rewires & extensions are governed by this.

In what way, in existing installations you can put what you like in a hot press?

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 5:07pm

Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.

How would you interpet that statement.?

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 5:16pm

koolkid wrote: »

How would you interpet that statement.?

Well i dont know, thats why im asking, sorry if i seem stupid:)

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 5:38pm

koolkid wrote: »

The National Rules deal with the electrical (power)installation. In airing cupboards, there is no distinction between low voltage (230V) and Extra -low voltage equipment <50V a.c. The dangwer is the build-up of heat which could cause fire hazard However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment. Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.

Looks like we were all wrong

Ok in airing cupboards there is no distinction between low and extra low voltage, but the rules do not apply to alarms or communications equipment.
And the rules only apply to complete rewires etc. So since i asked a stupid question koolkid, i will ask an even more stupid one as i obviously cant interpret like others can, Here goes,,,

If there is no distinction between 230v and <50v then you can put an alarm panel with a 230v supply in the hotpress whether its a new build or not depending how you interpret that,
So if it does not apply in partial rewires then how can it be understood when its not clear and is contradictory to start with.

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 6:25pm

The question I initally asked was to moving to mains PSU out of the hot press.
The reply I got seems to imply this is not required because:
1) The rules done apply to Alarms
and
2) The rules don't apply as it is not a new build,a full rewire or an extension.
Standards are full of contridictions. I've been trough them with IS199 & now with EN50131 . Nothing new in that .

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 6:33pm

koolkid wrote: »

The question I initally asked was to moving to mains PSU out of the hot press.
The reply I got seems to imply this is not required because:
1) The rules done apply to Alarms
and
2) The rules don't apply as it is not a new build,a full rewire or an extension.
Standards are full of contridictions. I've been trough them with IS199 & now with EN50131 . Nothing new in that .

Yes it seems from the reply you got that once its an alarm panel you could have the 230v supply inside it. Im surprised at that one myself. I like the others thought nothing except water heating and control devices were allowed in the hot press.

There is a lot in regulations that probably does not apply if its not a new build or full rewire, but even this is not clear where the line is drawn in some cases.

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 6:36pm

As 2011 advised me, the best thing to do is email them the proposal & they will outline what is allowed & what is not.

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 6:40pm

koolkid wrote: »

As 2011 advised me, the best thing to do is email them the proposal & they will outline what is allowed & what is not.

Yes it seems like a good advise idea alright. As he, i and most on here would say, we learn new stuff about all this regularly.

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 6:42pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yes it seems like a good advise idea alright. As he, i and most on here would say, we learn new stuff about all this regularly.

Well I for one sure learned something new today.:D

13-10-2010 6:52pm

Yes it seems from the reply you got that once its an alarm panel you could have the 230v supply inside it.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. All of the modern alarm systems that I know of have a mains voltage supply. If the rules do not apply to this mains voltage circuit, I will be asking them what other 230V circuits do they not apply to?? Also seeing as the regs don't apply to this circuit does it need an earth??

Im surprised at that one myself. I like the others thought nothing except water heating and control devices were allowed in the hot press.

That was what I thought!!

The other question is does that mean that it is now possible to get the NSAI to reverse their decision???

The plot thickens!!

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 6:58pm

Now see what ya started.....:pac:
Is a light allowed in a hot press?
Bearing in mind most Alarm panels would be on a light circut?

M cebee · 13-10-2010 7:24pm

2011 wrote: »

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. All of the modern alarm systems that I know of have a mains voltage supply. If the rules do not apply to this mains voltage circuit, I will be asking them what other 230V circuits do they not apply to?? Also seeing as the regs don't apply to this circuit does it need an earth??

That was what I thought!!

The other question is does that mean that it is now possible to get the NSAI to reverse their decision???

The plot thickens!!

the rules still apply to final circuits and earthing of appliances/automatic disconnection etc.

the 'demarcation point' is prob the alarm panel -which imo is electrical equipment

-or an 'appliance' according to the definition in the rules

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 7:27pm

koolkid wrote: »

Now see what ya started.....:pac:
Is a light allowed in a hot press?
Bearing in mind most Alarm panels would be on a light circut?

I should of said nothing, now im bound to learn another new thing or 2, too much in one day at my age:D

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 7:32pm

Roll on the inspections.
I love a good argument with an Inspector.

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 7:35pm

koolkid wrote: »

Roll on the inspections.
I love a good argument with an Inspector.

Or an argument with a good inspector,
once its not the tv licence one, anyway back to electrics.

paddy147 · 13-10-2010 9:12pm

Just dont put an alarm panel/battery in the hot press.Simple as that.

No rocket science needed.

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 9:15pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Just dont put an alarm panel/battery in the hot press.Simple as that.

Why??

Bruthal · 13-10-2010 9:32pm

koolkid wrote: »

Why??

Yes exactly, after that clarification earlier why not put it in if it suits.

Fuse box in hot press

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