Fuse box in hot press

paddy147 · 13-10-2010 9:42pm

What is a hot press for???

Ask yourselves that 1st.

fred funk }{ · 13-10-2010 9:47pm

paddy147 wrote: »

What is a hot press for???

Ask yourselves that 1st.

No need for riddles.

A utility room isn't for alarm panels either but they're installed there. Hallways aren't for fuse boards but they're installed there.

The question was why not install an alarm panel in a hot press?

KoolKid · 13-10-2010 10:16pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Just dont put an alarm panel/battery in the hot press.Simple as that.

No rocket science needed.

paddy147 wrote: »

What is a hot press for???

Ask yourselves that 1st.

Are you going to back up your statement with a logical answer?
The NSAI ,EQA & ETCI say it fine.Paddy 147 says no!
Please tell me you know more than they do & you have a sensible answer to my question.

paddy147 · 14-10-2010 12:45am

koolkid wrote: »

Are you going to back up your statement with a logical answer?
The NSAI ,EQA & ETCI say it fine.Paddy 147 says no!
Please tell me you know more than they do & you have a sensible answer to my question.

Id like to actually answer this for me please..........................

If,and I say "IF" (according to you) the NSAI and EQA say thats its perfectly fine do do that,can you back that up with a letter from them or actual written proof of it and written confirmation from them????

I await your reply.

KoolKid · 14-10-2010 6:58am

Jeez there is no pleasing some people.
I have stated here that I have had jobs passed by the NSAI. Fred funk has stated similar.
I was asked on thread to get clarification on this from ETCI.I have done so. It had been accepted that ECTI are qualified to clarify this and they have.But you do not want to accept anyones word on this. I have posted up what ECTI have said on this
I have paper work from NSAI passing jobs inspected where the panel is in the hot press.I am not going to post them here.Either say myself and Fred Funk are liars or accept this is true If there is a higher body you would like clarification from please go get it and post it up here. Otherwise please post why we should not put a panel in the hot press and why you are better qualified than ECTI and the certification bodies in this matter.
If you are not going to answer logically and reasonably then stop trolling.

Bruthal · 14-10-2010 7:32am

paddy147 wrote: »

What is a hot press for???

Ask yourselves that 1st.

Well whats an attic for, whats under the stairs for, whats a dining room for, i use the dining room as a workshop, oops i better put a dining table back in instead of the bench.

Bruthal · 14-10-2010 7:34am

fred funk }{ wrote: »

No need for riddles.

A utility room isn't for alarm panels either but they're installed there. Hallways aren't for fuse boards but they're installed there.

Just seen this after my last post, its almost like i copied:eek:

14-10-2010 8:17am

There is no point in attacking Koolid. He says he has this in writing and I believe him. He has even offered to show me. Like many here I am surprised, but the ETCI have said that the regulations don't apply so that is it. I just would like to know why they don't apply!

Out of curiosity I will look in to this further. I will post what I find.

altor · 14-10-2010 11:59am

Hi Koolkid,

Can you forward me on the letter from the ETCI ?

M cebee · 14-10-2010 12:52pm

i'd certainly like to read the letter in it's entirety-if there's more to it(don't doubt you koolkid btw)

i can't see how mains equipment can be outside the scope of the rules -regarding it's placement in hot presses, bathrooms etc.

it may be simply confusion or ambiguity(in the reply from etci or the rules) on the 'demarcation' between actual
electrical equipment/appliances and items such as pirs,cameras etc.

KoolKid · 14-10-2010 2:42pm

Its a very brief email which is pretty must as above.
I have forwarded it to you Altor.
@M ceebe if you PM your email I will do likewise.

altor · 14-10-2010 3:02pm

Here is my e-mail to them.

Hi ETCI,

I have being on to the NSAI who have told me to contact you with regard to installing plus upgrading an alarm panel in a hot press. They have told me that under the ETCI regulations this is not allowed.

I am looking for clarification of if the alarm panel is covered under your regulations, if it is to be installed or if it was to be upgraded back into the hot press would this be allowed ?

There response :

Dear Sir,

NSAI, who are responsible for the Irish Standard, state that the installation must comply with the National Rules. The National Rules prohibit every thing in an airing cupboard except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with heating systems.

In any case a "hot press" is not a suitable location for any kind of panel, for fire hazard reasons.

<snip> ETCI

I also got this when i asked about your response :

To correct any misunderstanding, the Irish Standard for alarms requires the wiring to be on accordance with the National Rules, not vice- versa. Therefore, an alarm panel should not be installed in an airing cupboard. Where a panel was installed in an airing cupboard previously,it would be good practice to remove it.

<snip>

The NSAI have also told me that it must be not installed as it is in breach of the regulations.

I hope this clears up the mater..

KoolKid · 14-10-2010 3:09pm

Clears it up?? It does anything but.
So from this are we to take it that the NSAI is the final say on this & not ETCI?
In that case we are back to where we started. The NSAI have inspected work for me,where panels have been upgraded back into hot press. I have reports for that showing no -non-conformance??

altor · 14-10-2010 4:05pm

altor wrote: »

To correct any misunderstanding, the Irish Standard for alarms requires the wiring to be on accordance with the National Rules, not vice- versa. Therefore, an alarm panel should not be installed in an airing cupboard. Where a panel was installed in an airing cupboard previously,it would be good practice to remove it.

This clearly indicates that what they said to you was misunderstood and indicates that the panel can not be installed in the hot press as you have said you have done. If you want to get a letter off the NSAI to state that you can install the alarm panel in the hot press then go ahead. I have being on to them with regard the response and they have said not to install it there also.

A letter off them to back up your claim regarding installing the alarm in the hot press will be the only response (not a non conformance report) that can put this to an end in everyones minds.

KoolKid · 14-10-2010 4:19pm

This really is getting Nuts. Don't get me wrong , I accept what you are saying & what the NSAi are saying to you. Also please accept what the NSAI are saying (and have done, in practice with me)

Lets look back over all this thread.
Where we started was ,as we are now, NSAI will accept this with customers consent.
We then went to , the NSAI dont have the right to do that , ETCI have the final say.
ETCI say it does not apply to alarms & does not apply unless its a full rewire etc...
ETCI then change their take on this and say , sorry actually it NSAI's rules not ours.
So can we all agree and conclude that NSAI are the final word on this?

Bruthal · 14-10-2010 4:25pm

2011 wrote: »

There is no point in attacking Koolid. He says he has this in writing and I believe him. He has even offered to show me. Like many here I am surprised, but the ETCI have said that the regulations don't apply so that is it. I just would like to know why they don't apply!

Out of curiosity I will look in to this further. I will post what I find.

Well i hope you dont mean myself attacking

, or fred by the look of it, we were backing him up about it based on the reply he got.

Back now to my question asking about what they meant by it not applying unless its new builds or complete rewires still seems a bit comfusing, as according to the reply koolkid got, it does not apply to alarm panels no matter what the scenario. Maybe we can put what we like in the hot press once its not a new build or a full rewire?

M cebee · 14-10-2010 4:44pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well i hope you dont mean myself attacking, or fred by the look of it, we were backing him up about it based on the reply he got.

Back now to my question asking about what they meant by it not applying unless its new builds or complete rewires still seems a bit comfusing, as according to the reply koolkid got, it does not apply to alarm panels no matter what the scenario. Maybe we can put what we like in the hot press once its not a new build or a full rewire?

stop attacking me:pac:

KoolKid · 14-10-2010 4:45pm

The only bit of clarity (if you can call it that) is that NSAI are the law after all.

Bruthal · 14-10-2010 4:45pm

M cebee wrote: »

stop attacking me:pac:

That was`t me, it was the other robbie7730:D

altor · 14-10-2010 4:56pm

koolkid wrote: »

This really is getting Nuts. Don't get me wrong , I accept what you are saying & what the NSAi are saying to you. Also please accept what the NSAI are saying (and have done, in practice with me)

Lets look back over all this thread.
Where we started was ,as we are now, NSAI will accept this with customers consent.
We then went to , the NSAI dont have the right to do that , ETCI have the final say.
ETCI say it does not apply to alarms & does not apply unless its a full rewire etc...
ETCI then change their take on this and say , sorry actually it NSAI's rules not ours.
So can we all agree and conclude that NSAI are the final word on this?

In practice if the NSAI are willing to give you a letter saying you can install the alarm there then that should be it but if they are not then you know why.

The ETCI dont inspect our installations, the NSAI do. That is maybe why it comes down to them.

KoolKid · 14-10-2010 5:05pm

Going by ETCI's performance in this having it in writing means nothing.
So are we in agreement that NSAI is the last word on this ?

altor · 14-10-2010 5:09pm

NSAI it is then..

KoolKid · 14-10-2010 5:23pm

If it is their rulesSo then what is the problem if they are willing to certify a job that has been located in the hoptpress with the customers concent?
I accept an inspection report that the job is ok. Why can you not do the same.

altor · 14-10-2010 5:42pm

koolkid wrote: »

If it is their rulesSo then what is the problem if they are willing to certify a job that has been located in the hoptpress with the customers concent?
I accept an inspection report that the job is ok. Why can you not do the same.

The reason is, if you say a system is installed to the EN50131 standard and the standards say it cant go in the hot press how can it be up to this standard ?

paddy147 · 14-10-2010 7:45pm

Wow,I see I caused a bit of a stir by my last 2 posts.

I told you so..............;)

Regards.

Bruthal · 14-10-2010 7:56pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Wow,I see I caused a bit of a stir by my last 2 posts.

I told you so..............;)

Regards.

O no,,,we`re not worthy:pac:

KoolKid · 14-10-2010 8:50pm

altor wrote: »

The reason is, if you say a system is installed to the EN50131 standard and the standards say it cant go in the hot press how can it be up to this standard ?

I think the main problem here is they all seem to be contradicting what is allowed & what is not.
As it has been established that the NSAI is the informed source I ofcourse accept what they say & do.
Equally Altor I accept that they are telling you something different & you must follow what you believe is right.
From my experience they have allowed it & they have inspected jobs without giving a non conformance.
But consider this. We have all learnt today how useless something is in writing. With that in mind I myself consider a clean inspection report much better proof . I know you feel different , that fine.

paddy147 wrote: »

Wow,I see I caused a bit of a stir by my last 2 posts.

I told you so..............;)

Regards.

Thats all you have done here is cause a stir. You have not told anyone to do anything, as you are not qualified to do so.
I am not in the slightest bit interested in who is right & who is wrong here. Nor have I any intention of trying to score silly points.We are all simply trying to debate the issues and hopefully get some clarification on the issues at hand. If you can't debate in an adult & civilised fashion then please stop trolling.

This issue is not yet resolved .
Here is the follow up communications I recived today from ETCI.
Its a direct copy from the emails so top is newest....

Colm,
In reply:

Regarding NSAI and their standard, compliance would be a matter for certification if such a formal system exists. If not, "signing off" by the installer would be the order of the day. (There is a certification scheme for the NSAI Emergency lighting standard in preparation). I am not sure whether NSAI operate any interpretation system, unlike ETCI.

I intend to put this matter formally to the next Meeting of TC2 on Thursday next for a decision. We cannot dictate to NSAI, but we may advise them

Until next Friday

<snip>

Original Message

From: <snip>Sent: Thursday, 14 October, 2010 14:46:40 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
Subject: RE: Alarm panels

Hi Tony,
Can you just clarify something from that ?
So if the standards are the NSAI's can they then certify or grant exceptions to this?
They have in the past said this can be signed off by the customer.

Colm

Original Message

From: <snip>Sent: 14 October 2010 11:48
To: colm
Subject: Alarm panels

Colm,

to follow up my e-mail re above, NSAI, who produced the standard, state that the wiring should comply with the ETCI ET 101:2008 Rules, which prohibit everything except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems, in airing cupboards.

<snip>

M cebee · 14-10-2010 8:55pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Wow,I see I caused a bit of a stir by my last 2 posts.

I told you so..............;)

Regards.

you did ya

with your waffle:pac:

paddy147 · 14-10-2010 9:27pm

M cebee wrote: »

you did ya

with your waffle:pac:

"You dont put an alarm panel in a hot press"............you call that waffle??

Even though what I said and my words are actually correct and true.;)

Might be waffle to you,but its the truth and it also practical common sense.

regards.

Bruthal · 14-10-2010 9:29pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Wow,I see I caused a bit of a stir by my last 2 posts.

I told you so..............;)

Regards.

I think this might be the waffle, it certainly looks like something from a 5 year old.

Fuse box in hot press

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