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Fuse box in hot press
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Read it again. He clearly states they is no distinsion between mains & low voltage.
This is what i was referring too.
Regarding NSAI and their standard, compliance would be a matter for certification if such a formal system exists.
I think he was referring to the way you wanted to power the alarm control panel in the hot press, If thats the case then I dont think you got the letter we where looking for off the ETCI ?He has already given me this in writing in the form of an inspection report.
I accept that as better than a letter. If you believe me accept it.
I am not going looking for a letter when I have a certified job with a report of conformance signed by an NSAI inspector.
How is a letter better than that.?
We have seen how easily something in writing has been dismissed already, today.
If you believe me can we move on from this please.
Thats a NO then. If you are so confident that you are allowed install the alarm panel in the hot press then why wont you get the letter off him
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Join Date:Posts: 24128
I don't read it like that at all.I think he was referring to the way you wanted to power the alarm control panel in the hot press, If thats the case then I dont think you got the letter we where looking for off the ETCI ?
He states there is no distintion between voltages, so it is irrelevan as to where the panel is powered from.
He then goes on to say Alarms are not covered anyway. Now I know that has changed but upto this point it was very clear.
Because I already have better than a letter.Thats a NO then. If you are so confident that you are allowed install the alarm panel in the hot press then why wont you get the letter off him
What there to be confident about?
The system is installed ,certified & passed an inspection. All this is from , what we have agreed, is the only body qualified to make the decision.0 -
I don't read it like that at all.
He states there is no distintion between voltages, so it is irrelevan as to where the panel is powered from.
He then goes on to say Alarms are not covered anyway. Now I know that has changed but upto this point it was very clear.
Yes he does and it has changed but you gave him the impression you where going to modify the panel. Clearly making his comments irrelevant as no such system exists.
He even felt he needed to clarify things with you by saying :
Colm,
to follow up my e-mail re above, NSAI, who produced the standard, state that the wiring should comply with the ETCI ET 101:2008 Rules, which prohibit everything except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems, in airing cupboards.Because I already have better than a letter.
What there to be confident about?
The system is installed ,certified & passed an inspection. All this is from , what we have agreed, is the only body qualified to make the decision.
It is only better than a letter in your eyes, I would like you to get the conformation that all installers can install alarms in the hot press like you say.I will refer to the contacts provided and the NSAI for some definitive clarifications on this.
You have said you will get on to the relevant bodies and now you wont
Anyway Colm, I will leave it up to you what you want to do but not asking the NSAI for the letter to clarify that this can be done does not back up your claim it can..0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 24128
Such a system can exist .It could also be referring to a line expander, a keypad or a number of othe low voltage devices.Yes he does and it has changed but you gave him the impression you where going to modify the panel. Clearly making his comments irrelevant as no such system exists.
He has clearly stated that
1> Voltage was irrelevant
2> Alarms were not covered (at his time of writing)
How could any impression I gave him have affected his decision on that?
I believe that clarification came because of discussions with another person or possibly the NSAI. As I have shown above how the panel was to be installed was clearly irrelevant. His further communication confirms this as he is also seeking clarification on the matter.
He even felt he needed to clarify things with you by saying :
to follow up my e-mail re above, NSAI, who produced the standard, state that the wiring should comply with the ETCI ET 101:2008 Rules, which prohibit everything except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems, in airing cupboards.
Obviousally!It is only better than a letter in your eyes,
I am hardly going to speak for anyone else.
But it makes sense ,in my eyes,that a signed official document is better than an email or letter.
I have already been told that its OK. To further confirm this I have had the the job certified and passed by an inspector. The inspector in a very prominent figure in the NSAI. I am more that happy that suffices for now.I would like you to get the conformation that all installers can install alarms in the hot press like you say.
If you want something further from NSAI , to sadisfy your own needs then that up to you .
I have already asked an NSAI inspector the situation on this.You have said you will get on to the relevant bodies and now you wont
The NSAI Inspector has informed me it was acceptable with the customers written consent.
The NSAI Inspector has Inspected the job & the NSAI Inspector has passed the job with no non-conformities.
To date the NSAI inspector has not contacted me to say anything has changed or this is no longer acceptable.
If that happens I will ,ofcourse comply with whatever the procedure is.
You and I have agreed that after recent revelations that the NSAI is the sole body responsible for this.
So does the above not count or do you simply not believe my account?
If you believe my version of this then are you saying the when an inspector signs a document he is not doing so on behalf of the NSAI?
To me he is representing the NSAI & therfore he has passed this on their behalf. If this were a court case I believe all my evidence would stand up better than a letter or an email.
I have also took the time to contact ETCI in a bid to clarify things further.
As you can see this is still ongoing & I await the outcome of that also.
It is not a claim it is a fact.Anyway Colm, I will leave it up to you what you want to do but not asking the NSAI for the letter to clarify that this can be done does not back up your claim it can..
If you want to meet me I will show you the inspectors report & bring you to the property during the next service.0 -
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Who said you are a liar
You say the insurance company are happy with it.
Why would they be looking at the panel in the hot press ?
If the panel being installed is against the ETCI regulations would that not effect the insurance policy in the event of a fire in the hot press ?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 24128
I say the system is up to standardWho said you are a liar
The NSAI say the system is up to standard.
You are saying it is not.
Someone is lying??
What I am saying is the insurance companies are happy to accept the decision of the NSAI.You say the insurance company are happy with it.
Why would they be looking at the panel in the hot press ?
Have we not established that ETCI regs does not cover alarms?If the panel being installed is against the ETCI regulations would that not effect the insurance policy in the event of a fire in the hot press ?
Its the NSAI decision , yes? 0 -
I say the system is up to standard
The NSAI say the system is up to standard.
You are saying it is not.
Someone is lying??
I hope your not calling me a liar ?What I am saying is the insurance companies are happy to accept the decision of the NSAI.
The question still stands :
If the panel being installed is against the ETCI regulations would that not effect the insurance policy in the event of a fire in the hot press ?Have we not established that ETCI regs does not cover alarms?
Its the NSAI decision , yes?
The mains wiring of the alarm has to be up to the ETCI regulations :
NSAI, who are responsible for the Irish Standard, state that the installation must comply with the National Rules. The National Rules prohibit every thing in an airing cupboard except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with heating systems.0 -
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We have already established that it is the NSAI who apply the regulations , not the ECTI. It is the NSAI's decision .
In the same way it was their decision to accept my system as up to standard.
I will rephrase it for you..
If the panel being installed is installed with the NSAIs wavier would that effect the insurance policy in the event of a fire in the hot press ?From the ECTIs point of view this does not apply to alarms.
This is not true going by the response to the reply I got when I asked him about your e-mail
To correct any misunderstanding, the Irish Standard for alarms requires the wiring to be on accordance with the National Rules, not vice- versa. Therefore, an alarm panel should not be installed in an airing cupboard. Where a panel was installed in an airing cupboard previously, it would be good practice to remove it.However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment. Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.
After that its the NSAIs choice to enforce this. As ECTI have said
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How can a system be classed as certified if the wiring is not up to standards
to follow up my e-mail re above, NSAI, who produced the standard, state that the wiring should comply with the ETCI ET 101:2008 Rules, which prohibit everything except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems, in airing cupboards.
NSAI, who are responsible for the Irish Standard, state that the installation must comply with the National Rules. The National Rules prohibit every thing in an airing cupboard except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with heating systems.
In any case a "hot press" is not a suitable location for any kind of panel, for fire hazard reasons.We really are going around in circles again. Lets try to summerise please.
The NSAI are responsible for this not ETCI . If it were ETCI's decision alarms would be allowed in the hotpress anyway.. In my experience the NSAI can/have certified my job to standard with a panel in the hot press.
I have offered proof of this.
As you accept the NSAI are the last word on this what exactly are we still debating?
I agree with you that if it where up to the ETCI then this would not be an issue but you are still upgrading alarm panels into the hot press knowing that it is against the EN50131 STANDARD
Are you afraid of the answer you might get in response if you ask for the letter ?0 -
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All of this is still going over the same thing.
The standard is the NSAIs and they say its acceptable.Furthermore they have inspected it and passed it.There has always been things that could be signed off by the customer and there always will be. I had an inspection once where a shop sign was installed over the SABB.The customer put in writing that's what he wanted.That job was passed. Now whether the NSAI employ their own discretion I don't know. But as I always work within the NSAI's guidelines and directions I am installing to their standards.
The NSAI has to obey ETCI regulations. From the ETCI website:
ETCI is the Irish Member of the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) and the European Committee for Electro-Technical Standardisation (CENELEC) and, as such, contributes towards the formulation of international standards which are subsequently published by NSAI as Irish Standards.If they say its up to the standard then you are not in a position to make such allegations that I am intentionally installing systems that are not up to standards.
I now request you withdraw that allegation.
You have said it yourself that it is not in the standards to install an EN50131 STANDARD alarm in the hot press. If it is please point out where I am wrongWith regard to fire risk. Every electrical item is some sort of fire risk.
We are currently dealing with a well known manufacturer regarding a panel that started burning in a utility room.
Yes of course every electrical item has some risk of fire, maybe thats why the ETCI have this rule below which they e-mailed to you :
Colm,
to follow up my e-mail re above, NSAI, who produced the standard, state that the wiring should comply with the ETCI ET 101:2008 Rules, which prohibit everything except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems, in airing cupboards.
He also took the liberty to email this on to me so there would be no confusion :
To correct any misunderstanding, the Irish Standard for alarms requires the wiring to be on accordance with the National Rules, not vice- versa. Therefore, an alarm panel should not be installed in an airing cupboard. Where a panel was installed in an airing cupboard previously,it would be good practice to remove it.
It is up to you what you do with all the information that is in this tread, I would suggest getting clarification off the NSAI on this mater.0 -
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robbie7730 wrote: »Anyway keep it friendly i say, no point in getting bitter or anything like that, (says the one thats always arguing):D
We are always friendly
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