Fuse box in hot press

Bruthal · 16-10-2010 12:54pm

altor wrote: »

We are always friendly

A sure i know that, just making sure:)

KoolKid · 16-10-2010 1:57pm

altor wrote: »

The NSAI has to obey ETCI regulations. From the ETCI website:

ETCI is the Irish Member of the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) and the European Committee for Electro-Technical Standardisation (CENELEC) and, as such, contributes towards the formulation of international standards which are subsequently published by NSAI as Irish Standards..

Its the ECTI who say it does not apply to alarms

However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment. Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.

The clarification also states its the NSAIs decision.

to follow up my e-mail re above, NSAI, who produced the standard, state that the wiring should comply with the ETCI ET 101:2008 Rules, which prohibit everything except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems, in airing cupboards.

Furthermore they say

We cannot dictate to NSAI, but we may advise them

You yourself have agreed the NSAI have the final say on this.

koolkid wrote: »

So are we in agreement that NSAI is the last word on this ?

altor wrote: »

NSAI it is then..

With all that in mind the conclusion has to be that its the NSAI's decision on how to enforce the standards. It seems they do use some discrection on some matters, as they have always done.
Again I state all my systems are installed to standard under guidence from NSAI where required.
I again ask you remove the allegations that I am intentionally installing systems that do not conform to the standards.

altor · 16-10-2010 2:48pm

koolkid wrote: »

So if not The NSAI , EQA or ETCI ,Who will you believe & I will get onto them??

You said you would get on to anyone to try sort this out so why dont you contact the NSAI on Monday and get a letter, plus get them to put in the letter who governs alarms (ETCI -NSAI)

koolkid wrote: »

Going by ETCI's performance in this having it in writing means nothing.
So are we in agreement that NSAI is the last word on this ?

altor wrote: »

NSAI it is then..

That was as I thought you where going to get clarification off them.

If you believe the NSAI and not the ETCI govern alarms can you explain what the ETCI meant by this then ?

the Irish Standard for alarms requires the wiring to be on accordance with the National Rules, not vice- versa. ?

M cebee · 16-10-2010 2:49pm

stop please:pac:

is anyone actually installing panels in hotpresses

-or why would they want to anyway

altor · 16-10-2010 2:54pm

M cebee wrote: »

stop please:pac:

is anyone actually installing panels in hotpresses

-or why would they want to anyway

Not me

Bruthal · 16-10-2010 4:22pm

Since you lads are far more experienced at alarm installations than us industrial electrical fella`s, if they were fully acceptable in hot presses, would it be an easier installation on average than installing in other suitable areas? I worked on some that were in hot presses and found them awkward to get in at anyway.

I think overall myself that they will not be allowed in hot presses soon even if it can be certified at the moment. But i would think that if it is certified in a hot press at present even if the house owner requested that location then its certified and installed properly. I myself when rewiring a house etc i would take on board the regs but also my own certain standard i would aim for, as in not just enough to get by the regs but a good quality installation. The installation can be installed to a not so great a standard but still pass all the required tests to be certified.

What im getting at is i think its best to eliminate any vagueness in the installation if that makes any sense.

M cebee · 16-10-2010 4:32pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Since you lads are far more experienced at alarm installations than us industrial electrical fella`s, if they were fully acceptable in hot presses, would it be an easier installation on average than installing in other suitable areas? I worked on some that were in hot presses and found them awkward to get in at anyway.

I think overall myself that they will not be allowed in hot presses soon even if it can be certified at the moment. But i would think that if it is certified in a hot press at present even if the house owner requested that location then its certified and installed properly. I myself when rewiring a house etc i would take on board the regs but also my own certain standard i would aim for, as in not just enough to get by the regs but a good quality installation. The installation can be installed to a not so great a standard but still pass all the required tests to be certified.

What im getting at is i think its best to eliminate any vagueness in the installation if that makes any sense.

it would generally be a handy central location for wiring alright

of course on big houses some of the hot presses are large walk-in type

KoolKid · 16-10-2010 4:51pm

M cebee wrote: »

stop please:pac:

is anyone actually installing panels in hotpresses

-or why would they want to anyway

What we are referring to here is retrofits whaere the customer does not want their entire house rewired to move the panel out of the hotpress.
I have already offered proof that this is acceptable by the NSAI.

altor wrote: »

You said you would get on to anyone to try sort this out so why dont you contact the NSAI on Monday and get a letter, plus get them to put in the letter who governs alarms (ETCI -NSAI).
The ECTI have alreay clarified that it is NSAIs decision.

We cannot dictate to NSAI, but we may advise them

If you believe the NSAI and not the ETCI govern alarms can you explain what the ETCI meant by this then ?

the Irish Standard for alarms requires the wiring to be on accordance with the National Rules, not vice- versa. ?

They ment that the NSAi require it. It is their rules.
That is why they have the ability to choose if they can use discretion & allow some leeway if required.
This has happened, and I have offered proof of this. This is not in dispute.
Are you saying nothing can be omitted if the customer puts it in writing?
I do not need to seek clarification on the job in question as it has already been inspected & passed.
{I am sure I mentioned this already:rolleyes:}

If the situation arises for a furture job I will , as I have always done, seek clarification & direction from the NSAI. As we have seen from ETCI having something in writing means very little. I will deal with NSAI on an individual job by job basis when & if required.
And as always all my work is {and always will be} certified by the NSAI.

Bruthal · 16-10-2010 5:05pm

M cebee wrote: »

it would generally be a handy central location for wiring alright

of course on big houses some of the hot presses are large walk-in type

well i knew that much:), but if a full house is being wired for alarm then a downstairs central point would do.

But now koolkid has said its just in the cases where the alarm is already in the press and being upgraded or modified then it does not seem a big problem does it, if its certified on a job by job basis then its ok i would of thought. If the certification criteria change next week, last weeks job is still fine.

KoolKid · 16-10-2010 5:13pm

All correct robbie.
You really hit the nail on the head there twice.
The NSAI can & do allow exceptions.(I still have the proof if anyone want to see it.)
If the standards change it does not affect previous work.
If the NSAI say next year , no more exemptions ,nothing will change ,the job we are discussing will still be certified & up to standard it was installed to.
After all there are sill 1000s of systems out there to IS199. They are claiming insurance discounts relevant to IS199. Will their insurane companies have to pay out if a fire starts in the hot press?
Yes I would imagine.

M cebee · 16-10-2010 5:30pm

'new work' must comply with the wiring rules

so as you say electrical equipment -may not have to be shifted in general anyway

out of interest the old rules(2000 3rd ed) stated the exact same thing on electrical equipment

:)i'll wait til 2011 get's bak from ETCI for us sparkies on this equipment nonsense

cos i'm confused myself

i have to dash now -i left my watch in the hot press:D

KoolKid · 16-10-2010 6:01pm

Utililty rooms not safe either . Get the washing maching & dryer outta there...:eek:

Bruthal · 16-10-2010 7:09pm

koolkid wrote: »

Utililty rooms not safe either . Get the washing maching & dryer outta there...:eek:

Yes the only way forward is 4x2000 swa and 12 volts:D

altor · 17-10-2010 12:00am

the Irish Standard for alarms requires the wiring to be on accordance with the National Rules, not vice- versa.

koolkid wrote: »

They ment that the NSAi require it. It is their rules.
That is why they have the ability to choose if they can use discretion & allow some leeway if required.

Whos rules ?

I interpret it differently. To me they mean that it has to be installed to the ETCI rules, not the NSAI.

NSAI, who are responsible for the Irish Standard, state that the installation must comply with the National Rules. The National Rules prohibit every thing in an airing cupboard except immersion heaters and auxiliary equipment associated with heating systems.

This seems very strange as in my own opinion the NSAI has to obey ETCI regulations reading this. After all they make the regulations.

More phone calls and e-mails on Monday to get to the bottom of this.

altor · 17-10-2010 12:05am

robbie7730 wrote: »

Since you lads are far more experienced at alarm installations than us industrial electrical fella`s, if they were fully acceptable in hot presses, would it be an easier installation on average than installing in other suitable areas? I worked on some that were in hot presses and found them awkward to get in at anyway.

I think overall myself that they will not be allowed in hot presses soon even if it can be certified at the moment. But i would think that if it is certified in a hot press at present even if the house owner requested that location then its certified and installed properly. I myself when rewiring a house etc i would take on board the regs but also my own certain standard i would aim for, as in not just enough to get by the regs but a good quality installation. The installation can be installed to a not so great a standard but still pass all the required tests to be certified.

What im getting at is i think its best to eliminate any vagueness in the installation if that makes any sense.

It would make the upgrade a lot easier if your installing the panel back into the hot press as your not moving the cables. Do you rewire an alarm panel back to the hot press if rewiring the house ?

altor · 17-10-2010 12:07am

M cebee wrote: »

it would generally be a handy central location for wiring alright

of course on big houses some of the hot presses are large walk-in type

That does not make any difference, I have come across rooms like this but still being told by my NSAI inspector that it cant be installed there.

KoolKid · 17-10-2010 1:34pm

.

altor wrote: »

I interpret it differently.

Apperently so do the NSAI who allow this to be done, I have been allowed & have the documentation to show it is allowed.
Are you disputing this?
From what I see that is the bottom line.
This one line proves that it the NSAI who rule.

We cannot dictate to NSAI, but we may advise them

imitation · 17-10-2010 2:56pm

Thanks for the advice on the fusebox in the hot press guys.

Koolkid & altor, I think clearly the only way to resolve your argument is pistols at dawn

M cebee · 17-10-2010 3:00pm

imitation wrote: »

Thanks for the advice on the fusebox in the hot press guys.

Koolkid & altor, I think clearly the only way to resolve your argument is pistols at dawn

KoolKid · 17-10-2010 3:09pm

imitation wrote: »

Thanks for the advice on the fusebox in the hot press guys.

Koolkid & altor, I think clearly the only way to resolve your argument is pistols at dawn

Or just listen to the NSAI, its clearly their decision.

Bruthal · 17-10-2010 6:49pm

imitation wrote: »

Thanks for the advice on the fusebox in the hot press guys.

Koolkid & altor, I think clearly the only way to resolve your argument is pistols at dawn

I think thats against a few regulations as well. But still happens.

KoolKid · 17-10-2010 7:03pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

I think thats against a few regulations as well. But still happens.

I'm sure that could be signed off also..;)

Bruthal · 17-10-2010 7:11pm

altor wrote: »

It would make the upgrade a lot easier if your installing the panel back into the hot press as your not moving the cables. Do you rewire an alarm panel back to the hot press if rewiring the house ?

Are you talking about wiring the mains supply to it during rewire? Why would i go near the alarm panel wiring itself?

Before koolkid`s clarification that it was in the event of remedial work on an existing panel that he left them in the same location, i thought it was a new alarm installation you`s were talking about putting into the hot press. I worked on them in hot presses alright, fault finding or adding a zone etc, i used to find them awkward to work on in them presses.

Bruthal · 17-10-2010 7:16pm

M cebee wrote: »

of course on big houses some of the hot presses are large walk-in type

I thought i was wiring one of them walk in hot presses a couple of years back, but it was actually an apartment:)

altor · 17-10-2010 8:43pm

koolkid wrote: »

.
Apperently so do the NSAI who allow this to be done, I have been allowed & have the documentation to show it is allowed.
Are you disputing this?
From what I see that is the bottom line.

I am not questioning that you have the documents, I am questioning if an alarm system can be installed in the hot press up to the EN50131 standards when the standards clearly say that we as installers must abide by the ETCI regulations but to me this is clearly not happening. If the regulations and standards can be dismissed to allow this then whats the point in even having standards.

koolkid wrote: »

This one line proves that it the NSAI who rule.

We cannot dictate to NSAI, but we may advise them

If you are basing your assumptions that this proves the NSAI rule then I disagree 100%. This again was in relation to an alarm system that does not exist so I cant see how it has anything to do with it.

koolkid wrote: »

Colm,
In reply:

Regarding NSAI and their standard, compliance would be a matter for certification if such a formal system exists. If not, "signing off" by the installer would be the order of the day. (There is a certification scheme for the NSAI Emergency lighting standard in preparation). I am not sure whether NSAI operate any interpretation system, unlike ETCI.

I intend to put this matter formally to the next Meeting of TC2 on Thursday next for a decision. We cannot dictate to NSAI, but we may advise them

Until next Friday

To me he was talking about if removing mains and battery from the panel would the control panel be allowed in the hot press. We will find that out on Friday when he gets back to you.

I would also say that he was making comments to the system that does not exist if the NSAI would certify it to standards that they would have no input into it.

altor · 17-10-2010 8:49pm

imitation wrote: »

Koolkid & altor, I think clearly the only way to resolve your argument is pistols at dawn

I dont think we will come to that, it is a good thought though :P

KoolKid · 17-10-2010 8:49pm

How is he talking about a panel that doesn't exist or of the mains is not present when he clearly states there is NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN HIGH AND LOW VOLTAGE???

altor · 17-10-2010 8:56pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Are you talking about wiring the mains supply to it during rewire? Why would i go near the alarm panel wiring itself?

No, I am talking about wiring for the whole alarm system.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Before koolkid`s clarification that it was in the event of remedial work on an existing panel that he left them in the same location, i thought it was a new alarm installation you`s were talking about putting into the hot press. I worked on them in hot presses alright, fault finding or adding a zone etc, i used to find them awkward to work on in them presses.

What would be the difference if it was an upgrade or new alarm as the control panel is still being put in the hot press ?

Bruthal · 17-10-2010 9:29pm

altor wrote: »

What would be the difference if it was an upgrade or new alarm as the control panel is still being put in the hot press ?

Well if a house is being rewired and the alarm is already installed perfect but in the hotpress, it has to be moved as part of the rewire are you saying? I`m not sure what the rules are on that, thats what this discussion is about is`t it?

If its an upgrade to the alarm without house being rewired then i would of thought its ok to leave in current position in hot press,

If there was no alarm and one was going to be installed with the rewire then i would`t put it in the hot press anyway.

If a house with rubber insulated cable is being rewired and the shower was in red and black but in good condition, it could possibly be left and the house put down as a partial rewire i think, and certified, yet the shower is not up to current regs as its red and black(I may be wrong). The permutations of all this are endless.

altor · 17-10-2010 9:32pm

koolkid wrote: »

How is he talking about a panel that doesn't exist or of the mains is not present when he clearly states there is NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN HIGH AND LOW VOLTAGE???

So your saying there is a panel manufactured up to the EN50131 standard that has external mains power supply plus external battery supply that can be installed in a hot press

Fuse box in hot press

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