Fuse box in hot press

altor

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well if a house is being rewired and the alarm is already installed perfect but in the hotpress, it has to be moved as part of the rewire are you saying? I`m not sure what the rules are on that, thats what this discussion is about is`t it?

If its an upgrade to the alarm without house being rewired then i would of thought its ok to leave in current position in hot press,

If there was no alarm and one was going to be installed with the rewire then i would`t put it in the hot press anyway.

If a house with rubber insulated cable is being rewired and the shower was in red and black but in good condition, it could possibly be left and the house put down as a partial rewire i think, and certified, yet the shower is not up to current regs as its red and black(I may be wrong). The permutations of all this are endless.

Are you an electrician ?

Bruthal

altor wrote: »

Are you an electrician ?

Why, do i not sound like one now?

Bruthal

I dont install alarms anyway if thats what your getting at.

altor

robbie7730 wrote: »

Why, do i not sound like one now?

EH NO.... :eek:

Bruthal

altor wrote: »

EH NO.... :eek:

Sorry to dissapoint you so,

Bruthal

altor wrote: »

EH NO.... :eek:

Maybe you could enlighten me, so i too can up my standards:pac:

altor

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well if a house is being rewired and the alarm is already installed perfect but in the hotpress, it has to be moved as part of the rewire are you saying? I`m not sure what the rules are on that, thats what this discussion is about is`t it?

If its an upgrade to the alarm without house being rewired then i would of thought its ok to leave in current position in hot press,

If there was no alarm and one was going to be installed with the rewire then i would`t put it in the hot press anyway.

If a house with rubber insulated cable is being rewired and the shower was in red and black but in good condition, it could possibly be left and the house put down as a partial rewire i think, and certified, yet the shower is not up to current regs as its red and black(I may be wrong). The permutations of all this are endless.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Maybe you could enlighten me, so i too can up my standards:pac:

Thats not up to me to do.....

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

So your saying there is a panel manufactured up to the EN50131 standard that has external mains power supply plus external battery supply that can be installed in a hot press

I am saying how could he have been referring to the panel being without mains when he clearly states there is no distinction between high and low voltage.??
A panel could also be replaced by an expander if voltage and battery were an insue.

Bruthal

altor wrote: »

Thats not up to me to do.....

Well your the expert on this thread so who am i to argue, but just on your thing highlighted on the shower one there, thats from an inspectors own mouth to one of my friends that wired a house just recently, maybe i will ask him for a letter for you also.


And its not up to you to tell me? Funny you dont seem to mind telling others their work is below par,

altor

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well your the expert on this thread so who am i to argue, but just on your thing highlighted on the shower one there, thats from an inspectors own mouth to one of my friends that wired a house just recently, maybe i will ask him for a letter for you also.

No need robbie, I thought you where a electrician

robbie7730 wrote: »

And its not up to you to tell me? Funny you dont seem to mind telling others their work is below par,

You can install showers as you want to, has no affect on me.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

I am saying how could he have been referring to the panel being without mains when he clearly states there is no distinction between high and low voltage.??
A panel could also be replaced by an expander if voltage and battery were an insue.

So is there a panel panel manufactured up to the EN50131 standard that has external mains power supply plus external battery supply that can be installed in a hot press

What would power the expander if the low voltage was an issue as there is no distinction between high and low voltage ?

Bruthal

altor wrote: »

You can install showers as you want to, has no affect on me.

What has installing showers got to do with anything, did`t mention installing any shower did i.


O wait, your right, im not an electrician, not since 4 or 5 years ago anyway,

And how koolkid installs alarms has what effect on you, it obviously upsets you a little small bit.

altor

robbie7730 wrote: »

What has installing showers got to do with anything, did`t mention installing any shower did i.


O wait, your right, im not an electrician, not since 4 or 5 years ago anyway,

And how koolkid installs alarms has what effect on you, it obviously upsets you a little small bit.

You seem to be the one upset here

Bruthal

altor wrote: »

You seem to be the one upset here

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

So is there a panel panel manufactured up to the EN50131 standard that has external mains power supply plus external battery supply that can be installed in a hot press

Powering the panel from an external power supply does not affect the EN50131 standard. So any panel manufactured to EN50131 could be used if this were a requirement.
I have checked this with the manufacturers by the way.

altor wrote: »

What would power the expander if the low voltage was an issue as there is no distinction between high and low voltage ?

A power supply or panel outside of the hot press?

As we have already determined that voltage is irrelevant what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

M cebee

koolkid wrote: »

Powering the panel from an external power supply does not affect the EN50131 standard. So any panel manufactured to EN50131 could be used if this were a requirement.
I have checked this with the manufacturers by the way.

A power supply or panel outside of the hot press?

As we have already determined that voltage is irrelevant what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

do you ever have enough:pac:

or the other guy :pac:

or is this a world record attempt

KoolKid

I do M cebee. But I find myself having to constantly reply to the same questions over and over.
I believe I have shown that:
NSAI are the ones that make the rules here.
That there is no distinction between high and low voltage in this matter.
The NSAI do allow some discretion in allowing some things to be signed off by the customer.
And still I get asked the same things again and again and still I get accused of installing systems that are not up to standard.
I feel I have explained everything very well.But as long as my work and reputation is brought into question I reserve the right to respond.
Especially considering the job in question has been inspected by the NSAI.

Bruthal

And i have been shown im not a sparks, if only i got onto this 10 years earlier:D

2011

I had a frank and informative phone conversation with a very helpful member of the ETCI Technical Committee about this the issues discussed on this thread.

Thanks to him I hope to be able to post an official a reply from the ETCI within the next few weeks.

KoolKid

This is the last email I recieved to my query.

Our Committee TC2 discussed the matter and decided as follows:

1. It is confirmed that alarm systems are outside the scope of the National Rules ET 101.
2. Any mains cable (230V) run on the surface inside an airing cupboard should be rated 90oC (similar to cable for immersion groups).
3. You should refer the matter to NSAI

As I said previousally, it would seem that this is the NSAI's decision and some discretion is applied.

M cebee

kinda stating the obvious isnt it


alarm systems outside scope of etci -of course they are!


mains panels and spur outlets included in that?

Stoner

imitation wrote: »

Hi

What are peoples opinions on a fuse board in a new houses hot press ? The way its working out the wiring will be coming into the house via the hotpress so its the handiest spot. I'm kind of on the fence about it, I can't see any huge issues as a hot press shouldn't be damp and there wouldnt be any risk of it getting wet if it was wall mounted. On the other hand, there might be plenty of nice dry flammable cloth in there should there be fault.

OK just to get us all back on track. The OP asked for opinions and he/she certainly got some. My understanding is that this is a regulation and therefore it should be followed and ignoring it is simply not up for debate.

However the OP only asked for an opinion and we all know that talking about something and doing it are two different things.

With a mod hat on, it is important to note that this a sub forum within the home and garden section, where electrical advice is offered to ordinary Joe soaps. It is not a place to talk about pay rates or employment issues, there are other forums on boards better suited to those issues.

That said most homes have a hot-press. and a little measured debate can be refreshing, however we need to stay away from potential insults and flaming, no good will come of it. However if we give our opinion and point out some of the hazards that 220V devices in a hot-press can cause, our readers could become better informed about the potential safety risks involved.

In my opinion this type of information is beneficial when used to inform normal readers about why they should get their alarm moved out of the hot-press and to avoid the use of a partial certificate. It is also important to point out that partial certification system is in place and has an important role to play in the industry.

The average Joe Soap can be advised by well informed tradespeople, but an advisors can only advise, after that they can only carryout their work to their safety, quality and environmental standard.

Moving on from this we can't have posts from people claiming for be from the ETCI or the NSAI, for much the same reasons as the helpful Mr Triton posts earlier this month, possibly very helpful but not easily verified. These well established bodies have their own mechanisms for dealing with requests for information.

As part of the new Dispute Resolution Process on boards mods are asked to edit less posts allowing posters to see what the issue was so that we as posters can see what the issue was and avoid them ourselves or again.

I hope that this post can stay on track I don't want to close another thread because posters can't be civil.

fred funk }{

Where was someone not civil Stoner?
I think this thread was going around in circles at times alright but I thought the lads were very civil and is/was an excellent debate.

2011

I think this thread was going around in circles at times

+1, but to be fair we have all done what we could to get clarification.

I thought the lads were very civil and is/was an excellent debate.

I am glad you thought so.

Myself, Altor and Koolkid have been discussing this a some length by PM. It has been interesting to say the least.
Following this I think that the three of us would agree with the following:

1) In terms of responsibility the whole subject of alarm systems is not straight forward as far as the ETCI and the NSAI are concerned as the lines have become blurred.

2) Although the ETCI appear to be quite clear about what electrically is and is not permitted in a hot press in the regulations (ET101) they will not issue anything in writing to say definitively that an alarm panel can or can not be installed in a hot press.

3) With a new install we all agree that a hot press would not be the location of choice for an alarm panel.

4) It would seem that the NSAI's main concern is that it may be in breach of the ETCI regulations to install an alarm panel in a hot press. However to me it would appear that they are unaware that the ETCI see this a a decision for the NSAI to make and this is why they will not comment officially either way.

5) It is a shame that we can not get an official document stating that this is or is not permitted (from either the NSAI or the ETCI). We have all expressed our opinions and why we have them, but unless we are given a clear statement from either the NSAI or the ETCI neither side can claim the other is incorrect! It remains a grey area as both bodies appear to be afraid to make a decision.

Bruthal

I think everyone would agree not to install an alarm panel in a hot press, i think it became an arguement more about upgrading an already existing panel in the hot press rather than rewiring the panel to a new location when the house owners would prefer to leave it where it is and the inspectors would show some descretion on a case by case basis. When the house is not being fully rewired i thought this did`t apply anyway.

The op question i think was definitively answered at the outset, no one performing in a competent manner would install a DB in the hotpress even if the existing one is there i would`t think. The idea of having immersion and water heating and control devices and nothing else in the hot press seems logical really.

But your right, some clarification is needed alright.

But to remove any doubt then avoid the hot press in all scenarios could be the way to go.

2011

Robbie I agree with everything you have said in your last post, this would have been my view right from the start.

What surprises me is that that the ETCI will not say that an alarm panel can or can not be installed in a hot press as part of a new install

fred funk }{

It seems totally bizarre to say least that the ETCI don't know or have regulations regarding alarm panels. I can't believe that nobody in there never thought to definitively include the location of the panels within their standards.

M cebee

they may not have rules covering specific items of equipment


but they define 'appliances' and 'electrical equipment' at the front of the rules book

Stoner

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Where was someone not civil Stoner?
I think this thread was going around in circles at times alright but I thought the lads were very civil and is/was an excellent debate.

ah there is just the odd little nibble Fred.

once again in my opinion only, confining what is allowed excludes other electrical devices outside of the named devices, this would include electrically operated devices from an alarm panel to a train set.

One of my murky points on the last post was aimed at the scope of this forum, I offered that IR issues are outside it, I was hinting that this is not a place to engage in conversation about the right and or wrong doing of a regulatory body.

KoolKid

I think it ETCI are going to say

However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment. )

and then say

It is confirmed that alarm systems are outside the scope of the National Rules ET 101.

Then this needs to be rewritten

"5556.1 Electrical equipment in domestic an airing cupboards and similar enclosures shall be confined to the following:
-an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems."

If that is the case , and the NSAI only wish to comply with the national standards ,then should the requirement be removed from EN50131?