Why was Peter Sutherland given a platform on the RTE news?

Welease

liammur wrote: »

PS pensions at this moment are incredibly generous but not sustainable. I would need to go through the figures and projections before I would offer advice, but down the line I can see their lump sums being taxed etc

Absolutely, its not sustainable.. its; not sustainable in companies making profits.. its not sustainable in a country borrowing vast sums..
The last report I read estimated a PS pension shortfall of 108 billions (due to the pay as you go scheme), this has been recently estimated at in excess of 125 b..

http://www.ssisi.ie/Moloney&Whelan2009.pdf

Welease

blue_steel wrote: »

I gave you the figures in an earlier post. They are based on an icome of 45k pa.

No, I am asking how you came to those figures (and I'll ignore your further childish posts in the previous post)...

As far as I am aware after 40 years you will be due a lump sum (of 150%?) and 50% final salary benefit.. how do you come to 7K figure?

These are your pension terms.. 1/80th per year

http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/OverviewofPublicServicePensionSchemes.pdf

blue_steel

Welease wrote: »

No, I am asking how you came to those figures (and I'll ignore your further childish posts in the previous post)...

As far as I am aware after 40 years you will be due a lump sum (of 150%?) and 50% final salary benefit.. how do you come to 7K figure?

These are your pension terms.. 1/80th per year

http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/OverviewofPublicServicePensionSchemes.pdf

These figures are from my pension calculator in work. Which literally updates by the day. The public sector golden handshake is a myth my friend. Trust me I'd rather the 300-odd euro a month in my pocket.

Welease

gambiaman wrote: »

His whole life's work makes his message invalid - he's not an Irishman looking out for his country, if you belive that you're one of the Fools on Fintan's Ship.
He's an investment banker, very much on the inside and money and the making of it above everything, is his goal.
He doesn't give a shít about this country, only his compadrés and the billions they are getting away with.

Look at his record, to even give the time of day to this GS mouthpiece is an insult.

We all know what's coming down the line and most of us know it has to be done - sure we could all roll over and not say a word about the likes of him lecturing the little man and not point out that hold on, weren't you the greedy, greedy big man who was a major part of the elite culture built up on this island? -
the OP was all about yet another member of the elite in this country lecturing us that 'we' must gird our loins, nah he doesn't mean him or his fellow bedfellows, he means shut up little man and don't say a word, well he can fck right off.

I diasgree (somewhat)..

Yes he is a dick.. and yes he is the elite who walk away from this.. but that is part of the enviroment that people in this country chose to vote for.. we (en masse) voted for low regulation, boom .. we (en masse) got it..

Lets not pretend we have any higher agenda.. we voted Birtie back in, we voted Charlie Haughey in etc etc etc etc.. and i would bet my left testicle Willie o Dea will be voted back in..

But all that aside...

It depends on what message you want to take..

We need to take the pain.. a lot of pain.. and most folks in Ireland don't understand that yet.. and in that.. i believe he is correct.. (focus less on the personality, focus more more on the message)

Welease

blue_steel wrote: »

These figures are from my pension calculator in work. Which literally updates by the day. The public sector golden handshake is a myth my friend. Trust me I'd rather the 300-odd euro a month in my pocket.

What pension calc? Come on.. you are willing to throw insults around.. so back it up..

You get 1/80 pension (plus lump sum).. so increments/promotion aside you already get 3 times what you claim.....

blue_steel wrote: »

The public sector golden handshake is a myth my friend.

Your own documents suggest you get 3/80's lump sum..
http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/OverviewofPublicServicePensionSchemes.pdf

vincentdunne

I think you should both chill out.
The facts of public pensions is that, yes, I will get 50% of my salery on retirement (at 65). However, due to the Pension levy, etc. My current salary is down by 16% since 2006. I can send you the payslips if you like.
What people don't understand is that that pension (for me and may others) is made up of the old age pension and then made up to 50%.
This may be relatively generous in comparison to others.
It does not, however, mean that I, after 35 years service in education, am unable to make ends meet at the end of the month, and I don't pay a mortgage.
Mr. Sutherland is the epitomy of the 'Fat cat' literally. He never did and never will have to survive on €3,000 per month and, you know what, he does not care either.
Talk is cheap, unless it is from a solicitor or a banker.

Citizen_Cutback

Welease wrote: »

So? DB pensions are estimated to be worth 30% of salary? I'm on one...
(and quit the childish insults).

How much are you paying towards your pension percentage-wise compared to your employer?

Do you accept that the employer always pays a significant element of DB contributions?

Is it acceptable the the Government pays approximately 7-8% towards Public Sector DB pensions or should different rules apply for Private/Public Sectors?

What is the current Net Cost to the State of Contributory/Non-Contributory Pensions for approximately 440,000 current and increased future Pensions?

Perhaps if you got into a Defined Benefit Pension Scheme 20 years ago you wouldn't be so bitter about Public Sector Pensions now.

I am not expecting you to reply in a coherent fashion; I know your form!

blue_steel

Welease wrote: »

What pension calc? Come on.. you are willing to throw insults around.. so back it up..

You get 1/80 pension (plus lump sum).. so increments/promotion aside you already get 3 times what you claim.....

You won't reveal anything about your own circumstances and yet you question me when I'm honest enough to give my personal details. This thread isn't about my pension. It's about obsequious Uncle Tom's like you apologising for Fat Cat leeches like Sutherland. Listen, be my guest and suck at the teat of your economic overlord. Me I'll pass. Sweet dreams.

Sir Oxman

Welease wrote: »

I diasgree (somewhat)..

Yes he is a dick.. and yes he is the elite who walk away from this.. but that is part of the enviroment that people in this country chose to vote for.. we (en masse) voted for low regulation, boom .. we (en masse) got it..

Lets not pretend we have any higher agenda.. we voted Birtie back in, we voted Charlie Haughey in etc etc etc etc.. and i would bet my left testicle Willie o Dea will be voted back in..

But all that aside...

It depends on what message you want to take..

We need to take the pain.. a lot of pain.. and most folks in Ireland don't understand that yet.. and in that.. i believe he is correct.. (focus less on the personality, focus more more on the message)[/QUOTE]

Welease, I can't ignore who is speaking - I think it matters a great deal.
I already have taken the message about cuts onboard, to take that message from the likes of him and his cohorts is a no-no.

The man's a cancer.

I won't get into your other points above on this thread (I agree), just to say who'd have thought doling out medical cards etc could keep a bunch of gombeens comfy in their seats in our NATIONAL parliament.
For that, a lot of Irish little men need to shoulder a heavy part of the blame.

Welease

blue_steel wrote: »

You won't reveal anything about your own circumstances and yet you question me when I'm honest enough to give my personal details. This thread isn't about my pension. It's about obsequious Uncle Tom's like you apologising for Fat Cat leeches like Sutherland. Listen, be my guest and suck at the teat of your economic overlord. Me I'll pass. Sweet dreams.

Sorry but you are not being honest.. I pointed out with links to your own employers pages how there is now way you will earn a 7K pension and you avoided the point, just like you avoided you FACT that no one is being hired..

You just go back to the same old tired insults ....

Welease

gambiaman wrote: »

Welease, I can't ignore who is speaking - I think it matters a great deal.
I already have taken the message about cuts onboard, to take that message from the likes of him and his cohorts is a no-no.

The man's a cancer.

He is... but his message is true.. and he's a cancer because we let loose fiscal policies become our cancer..

gambiaman wrote: »

I won't get into your other points above on this thread (I agree), just to say who'd have thought doling out medical cards etc could keep a bunch of gombeens comfy in their seats in our NATIONAL parliament.
For that, a lot of Irish little men need to shoulder a heavy part of the blame.

Absolutely... we let this happen.. and we continue to let this happen.. the denial in this thread is laughable.. 4 months ago we didn't want to be lumped in with PIGS... now we are the single pIg.... and still we deny the fact..

Welease

vincentdunne wrote: »

I think you should both chill out.
The facts of public pensions is that, yes, I will get 50% of my salery on retirement (at 65). However, due to the Pension levy, etc. My current salary is down by 16% since 2006. I can send you the payslips if you like.
What people don't understand is that that pension (for me and may others) is made up of the old age pension and then made up to 50%.
This may be relatively generous in comparison to others.
It does not, however, mean that I, after 35 years service in education, am unable to make ends meet at the end of the month, and I don't pay a mortgage.
Mr. Sutherland is the epitomy of the 'Fat cat' literally. He never did and never will have to survive on €3,000 per month and, you know what, he does not care either.
Talk is cheap, unless it is from a solicitor or a banker.

In relation to Mr. Sutherland, yes talk is cheap.. as it is for politicians etc.. the people that the masses let drive their beliefs and thoughts.. after all it wasnt but 3-4 years ago everyone loved the boom and held them up to be gods well apart from those of us who were told to go commit suicide...

Despite what Blue_Steel claims.. yes, you will get 50% of your final (3 year) salary at retirement age... and that is an amazing benefit.. If it wasn't, then the private sector would be offering it, but even the banks got rid of it (pre-crash) as being too expensive.. And for those who were in DC pensions (the vast majority of private workers).. their pensions lost 36% in 2008.. put that into perspective..
Blue-Steel wanted figures.. I have one pension account that I paid 12.5% of my salary into for the last 18 years (with my company paying 9.75%).. I now earn a six figure compensation.. and that pension as per my last statement will provide me with 1,800 per year (17+ buy in per year rate)... before moving to this DB package.. which I am desperate to keep.. so anyone who wishes to dump it, i have to wonder how much they actually understand about what they are talking about..

vincentdunne

The point I was making to both yourself and Blue-Steel is that we, public and private workers, are all in the muck, some may be standing in a somewhat more shallow pool. Sutherland is not. He is on a hill, sipping 'champagne' and laughing his head off while lecturing you, me and Blue Steel, and all the other poor bastards who will have to pay for his friends (nor our) excesses.

AlekSmart

Suds talking about it now should not be news to anyone.. It;s not up for debate...

I`m with Welease on this for sure...WTF Mr Sudsy was given so much uninterrupted airtime to peddle his undebatable self serving logic is beyond me..or did he pay RTE the going rate for a 10 minute slot at Peak rates...?

blue_steel

Welease wrote: »

Sorry but you are not being honest.. I pointed out with links to your own employers pages how there is now way you will earn a 7K pension and you avoided the point, just like you avoided you FACT that no one is being hired..

You just go back to the same old tired insults ....

I'm not sure why but you are determined to believe I'm lying to you :rolleyes:
Here is my pension statement. €7800 pa with full service for the next 28 yrs. I'm planning on taking a career break at some stage so that'll drop.
I think what annoys you about ps pensions is the fact that you have some chance of getting back what you put in. But isn't that how a pension should work? Or perhaps you are happy handing over money to some shyster every month for him to play with on the markets? Only for him to come back to you in 30 yrs and say sorry, I lost it all.
Besides its all a moot point because there won't be any money to pay either of our pensions thanks to Sutherland and his ilk. THAT is the main reason I'd opt out if I could.


Retirement Benefits Statement

Personal Details for Joe Blogs @ 25 September 2010 </I></B>Date of Birth 21/10/1973 Projected retirement date at age 65 21/10/2038 Pensionable Service to date
Service from today to retirement 2 Years and 0 Days
28 Years and 26 DaysProjected future working pattern100% (Full Time) Total reckonable service*30 Years and 26 Days Pensionable Remuneration€45,000
Your Benefits on retiring at age 65 (Based on current salary supplied by you and Social Welfare rate)If you retire at age 65 you would receive a once off tax-free retirement gratuity of €50,745, less the deduction of any outstanding contributions. You would also receive a pension of €7,881. Your pension would be paid in arrears on a fortnightly basis. Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,017.05 per annum. If through no fault of your own you fail to qualify for a Social Welfare benefit, you may be entitled to a supplementary pension.

doc_17

I dislike it when these pr/cks who caused the whole mess, bit like Cowen and his band of stupid men/women, tell us what we should be doing to get out of it.

eoinbn

blue_steel wrote: »

Yes WE need to take the pain.
So how about looking at our corporation tax rate? (Intel recently posted the highest quarterly revenue in its history)
How about removing the PRSI ceiling?
How about means testing children’s allowance?
How bout taxing all income above 100K at 60%?
How about creating a tax on all future banking profits so that eventually they’ll pay for the mess they created? And let’s charge them a decent interest rate while we’re at it.
My point is WE should include Sutherland and his cohorts. But his WE doesn’t. His WE is US!

Corp tax: I don't really have an issue with it. I think it's hypocritical of us to be complaining about people avoiding tax while we provide a tax haven for companies. On the flip side it would really hurt investment.

PRSI: I would an issue with that. Welfare benefits are fixed so I don't see why some people should pay more to get access to the same benefits.

Childrens allowance: No problem with that but Joan Burton would have a fit! Apparently the payment isn't for children it's for mothers as some husbands are cruel and don't give their wives enough money to buy handbags!(OK, I added the handbags...)

Tax@60% for €100k: It's already somewhere in the 50's for many of them due to levies. It won't solve much of the problem but it might make people feel a little better...

Taxing bank profits: The problems needs to be tackled NOW- taxing zero=zero. In any case banks will just pass the tax on by charging more interest, or higher bank charges- either way it's 'Joe public' that will pay.

liammur

vincentdunne wrote: »

I think you should both chill out.
The facts of public pensions is that, yes, I will get 50% of my salery on retirement (at 65). However, due to the Pension levy, etc. My current salary is down by 16% since 2006. I can send you the payslips if you like.
What people don't understand is that that pension (for me and may others) is made up of the old age pension and then made up to 50%.
This may be relatively generous in comparison to others.
It does not, however, mean that I, after 35 years service in education, am unable to make ends meet at the end of the month, and I don't pay a mortgage.
Mr. Sutherland is the epitomy of the 'Fat cat' literally. He never did and never will have to survive on €3,000 per month and, you know what, he does not care either.
Talk is cheap, unless it is from a solicitor or a banker.

I would agree with a lot of what you say, however, a lot of solicitors are in a bad way too, through no fault of their own I may add.

blue_steel

Sutherland (and some people here) reckon its more about the deficit than the banking crisis? But aren't the deficit problems compounded by the banking crisis? We didn't lose our AAA credit rating because of the deficit. We aren't paying 6.5% for credit because of the deficit. Those things happened because our banks screwed up and the markets think paying the bill will sink us. Wouldn't it be easier to reduce the deficit if we didn't have the 70 billion drag from NAMA and Anglo, starting as we did from a small debt to GDP ratio?
But Sutherland wants to blame nurses and firemen for what he helped to cause. Don't be fooled. The man is (as an astute poster said above) a cancer. And we will never have a equitable society until such cancers are removed.

liammur

blue_steel wrote: »

Sutherland (and some people here) reckon its more about the deficit than the banking crisis? But aren't the deficit problems compounded by the banking crisis? We didn't lose our AAA credit rating because of the deficit. We aren't paying 6.5% for credit because of the deficit. Those things happened because our banks screwed up and the markets think paying the bill will sink us. Wouldn't it be easier to reduce the deficit if we didn't have the 70 billion drag from NAMA and Anglo, starting as we did from a small debt to GDP ratio?
But Sutherland wants to blame nurses and firemen for what he helped to cause. Don't be fooled. The man is (as an astute poster said above) a cancer. And we will never have a equitable society until such cancers are removed.

Most people are in awe of sutherland, the same way they were of sean fitzie a few years ago.

Welease

liammur wrote: »

Most people are in awe of sutherland, the same way they were of sean fitzie a few years ago.

I don't believe they are.. In fact, I think it's exactly the opposite, they don't like him or his values, but the smart ones do understand that since Leni and co. decided that capitalism could not be allowed to run it's course with the banks, that we would have to pick up the tab..

Most people have not realised just how big that tab is, and as demonstrated in this thread, the belief that after some cuts income plus a pension levy and people believe they have taken enough pain.. The message from Suds (and many others) is crystal clear... this is just the start of the pain.. and in that respect they are correct (and it's nothing to do with personalities).

Welease

blue_steel wrote: »

I'm not sure why but you are determined to believe I'm lying to you :rolleyes:
Here is my pension statement. €7800 pa with full service for the next 28 yrs. I'm planning on taking a career break at some stage so that'll drop.
I think what annoys you about ps pensions is the fact that you have some chance of getting back what you put in. But isn't that how a pension should work? Or perhaps you are happy handing over money to some shyster every month for him to play with on the markets? Only for him to come back to you in 30 yrs and say sorry, I lost it all.
Besides its all a moot point because there won't be any money to pay either of our pensions thanks to Sutherland and his ilk. THAT is the main reason I'd opt out if I could.


Retirement Benefits Statement

Personal Details for Joe Blogs @ 25 September 2010 </I></B>Date of Birth 21/10/1973 Projected retirement date at age 65 21/10/2038 Pensionable Service to date
Service from today to retirement 2 Years and 0 Days
28 Years and 26 DaysProjected future working pattern100% (Full Time) Total reckonable service*30 Years and 26 Days Pensionable Remuneration€45,000
Your Benefits on retiring at age 65 (Based on current salary supplied by you and Social Welfare rate)If you retire at age 65 you would receive a once off tax-free retirement gratuity of €50,745, less the deduction of any outstanding contributions. You would also receive a pension of €7,881. Your pension would be paid in arrears on a fortnightly basis. Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,017.05 per annum. If through no fault of your own you fail to qualify for a Social Welfare benefit, you may be entitled to a supplementary pension.

So you are in the PS for 2 years.. and you don't and will never ever qualify for increments, raises or promotion?

blue_steel

Welease wrote: »

So you are in the PS for 2 years.. and you don't and will never ever qualify for increments, raises or promotion?

What has that to do with anything? You may as well ask how much will a pint of milk cost in 2038. If the answer is €50 then a pension of 7 grand a year (which you claimed was a lie btw) isn't going to be much use to you. It's all relative.
There is a promotion embargo in the ps. Most people are doing work they aren't paid for, taking on responsibilities above their grade. Workers in Anglo were given a raise for taking on increased responsibilites this year.

Welease

blue_steel wrote: »

What has that to do with anything? You may as well ask how much will a pint of milk cost in 2038. If the answer is €50 then a pension of 7 grand a year (which you claimed was a lie btw) isn't going to be much use to you. It's all relative.
There is a promotion embargo in the ps. Most people are doing work they aren't paid for, taking on responsibilities above their grade. Workers in Anglo were given a raise for taking on increased responsibilites this year.

Because you are on a DB pension.. your current salary is largely irrelevant unlike in a DC pension (where you would be paying a % in monthly)..
You pension will be based on your LAST 3 (iirc) years income, so therefore all promotions, raises and increments are actually the most important part not what you earn now.. You will not be getting 7K in 2038, you would be getting 30/80th (plus 90/80's lump sum) of your salary then..

A DC pension has the nightmare scenario you listed above.. No link to final wages, in fact payments in would reflect the current lower (pre-raise, promo etc) wages of the employee now.. So they could end up on a final salary of 7K with a bottle of milk costing 50 euro.. You won't..

And that is why it's unsustainable.. and in conjunction with the PS pay as you go pension funding.. has left the tax payer with a liability of over 110 billion for your pensions alone.. The real pain has yet to come..

Anyway, getting way of topic..

R P McMurphy

Sutherland and those like him were a large part of the problem and therefore I don't think should be allowed to contribute to the solution. Their flawed thinking created the situation, should be told to put up or shut up. Have him go on the average industrial wage for 5 years for the good of the country

blue_steel

Welease wrote: »

Because you are on a DB pension.. your current salary is largely irrelevant unlike in a DC pension (where you would be paying a % in monthly)..
You pension will be based on your LAST 3 (iirc) years income, so therefore all promotions, raises and increments are actually the most important part not what you earn now.. You will not be getting 7K in 2038, you would be getting 30/80th (plus 90/80's lump sum) of your salary then..

A DC pension has the nightmare scenario you listed above.. No link to final wages, in fact payments in would reflect the current lower (pre-raise, promo etc) wages of the employee now.. So they could end up on a final salary of 7K with a bottle of milk costing 50 euro.. You won't..

Anyway, getting way of topic..

I understand that. But nobody knows what will happen with inflation so it's all relative. The 7k figure holds true for todays prices.
Anyway, like you say, way off topic.

Welease

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Sutherland and those like him were a large part of the problem and therefore I don't think should be allowed to contribute to the solution. Their flawed thinking created the situation, should be told to put up or shut up. Have him go on the average industrial wage for 5 years for the good of the country

I think you'll find there were very few people who were not involved in this mess... we went from low cost economy to an expensive economy, and even if you never worked a day in your life, your SW payments went up.. The problem is, very few understand the need for real pain and change, or if they do they believe that someone else needs to take that pain..

R P McMurphy

I would disagree, I think a lot of people would be willing, if they feel they are being told the truth and not treated as fools. But more importantly if they think that things will be done in an equitable manner. People like Sutherland (who has had an infinitely larger role in shaping the current disaster than the average person) pontificating to everyone else about pain is unacceptable given that he is unlikely to experience any. His flawed thinking helped shape our destiny, let him share it

Welease

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I would disagree, I think a lot of people would be willing, if they feel they are being told the truth and not treated as fools. But more importantly if they think that things will be done in an equitable manner. People like Sutherland (who has had an infinitely larger role in shaping the current disaster than the average person) pontificating to everyone else about pain is unacceptable given that he is unlikely to experience any. His flawed thinking helped shape our destiny, let him share it

and I suppose that is the crux of the issue for me.. While we wait for those who played a larger part to take their equal share (which won't happen), the debt continues to rack up, we fall even further behind in competitiveness and more people end up losing their jobs... At some stage, we need to start making huge cuts to rectify the situation.. This could and should have started a couple of years ago, but little continues to be done (on the scale required).

Pinning Seanie (and others) to the wall (while justified and should be done), won't actually solve any issues we are currently experiencing... that seems to be lost on a lot of people.

R P McMurphy

I don't really get your point, that people should be lobbying their local representatives to increase taxes/reduce their wages in order to reduce the deficit? Not being smart with you, just unsure of what practical measures you are pointing to

R P McMurphy

And to clarify, I know I have room for giving more of my salary in taxation and would think it acceptable as long as those such as Sutherland do the same (should be appropriate according to his wealth, not a fraction but a substantial portion of his income). I am willing to contribute more but am no doormat and don't want them wiping their feet on me

R P McMurphy

If him and his ilk are unwilling then let them get out of the country for good and stop preaching to us, they are not welcome

Sir Oxman

"And the 2009 Finance Accounts reveal former attorney general Peter Sutherland, who yesterday said wages, costs and pensions were too high here and called on the Government to make “hard decisions”, was handed a state pension payment of €52,000 last year."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sacked-ministers-get-euro25000-to-soften-blow-2352838.html

Welease, it is possible for people to have more than one train of thought or opinion simultaneously.

I know cuts have to be made but to have Sutherland (and the other gets on the gravy train) preach about costly pensions etc whilst receiving 52k from the taxpayers in his case, well it simply won't wash and should be pointed out everytime.

Welease

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I don't really get your point, that people should be lobbying their local representatives to increase taxes/reduce their wages in order to reduce the deficit? Not being smart with you, just unsure of what practical measures you are pointing to

I don't think that people necessarily need to go to their local reps. to demand higher taxes, but they should be far more open to the fact they the cuts need to be made and urgently.. If cuts had been made 18 months ago, would we have needed to borrow the latest 1.5billion at rediculous rates?

So far, we have seen the PS get an agreement that leaves them essentially untouchable until 2014.
We have heard the views that pensions must not be cut, equally social welfare should not be touched, minimum wage can't and should not be touched.. We have TD's stopping support for the government because of cuts to the HSE in their areas etc etc etc..

Doesn't look like a lot of people are actually ready and willing to take the cuts required.. and meanwhile we keep borrowing at increased rates.

Like it or not, we need a lot more people in the media telling people to wake up and look at the figures.. Cuts have to be made.. But this is Ireland, we have opposition parties like Labour telling the PS they will reverse the pay cuts and bring back the boom time wages if they get voted in.. and suddenly Gilmore is the most popular party leader..

Welease

gambiaman wrote: »

"And the 2009 Finance Accounts reveal former attorney general Peter Sutherland, who yesterday said wages, costs and pensions were too high here and called on the Government to make “hard decisions”, was handed a state pension payment of €52,000 last year."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sacked-ministers-get-euro25000-to-soften-blow-2352838.html

Welease, it is possible for people to have more than one train of thought or opinion simultaneously.

I know cuts have to be made but to have Sutherland (and the other gets on the gravy train) preach about costly pensions etc whilst receiving 52k from the taxpayers in his case, well it simply won't wash and should be pointed out everytime.

Yep he was.. and yep he is a dick... but if a liar tells you the truth, it doesnt make it untrue..

This government does need to make hard decisions.. decisions so far they seem unwilling to make. On that point I believe he is correct.

R P McMurphy

If we have people to tell us this, let it be people of substance and not two-faced cretins that have brought th situation about, let it be people of integrity that lead by example.

Sir Oxman

R P McMurphy wrote: »

If we have people to tell us this, let it be people of substance and not two-faced cretins that have brought th situation about, let it be people of integrity that lead by example.

Exactly.

recedite

gambiaman wrote: »

Notice the use of 'we' as in 'we must gird our loins', what he means is you and I not him and them.

This man pockets copius pensions from this state along with his millions from his various boardships and investments nevermind the fact he's deeply involved with the biggest culprits of theis whole economic collapse, Goldman Sachs.

His ilk will never, ever see a poor day, yet take every opportunity to saddle the little man with their debts and fcuk-ups and tell him 'we must gird our loins'.

Pompous bastard that he is.

I actually laughed when I heard him say that "we" could take some more pain; him sitting there in plush gardens, with an exuberant but ultimately pointless fountain underlining the hypocrisy of it all in the background. Sutherland the Sultan of Ireland.

J K

Welease wrote: »

This government does need to make hard decisions.. decisions so far they seem unwilling to make. On that point I believe he is correct.

There has been cuts in expenditure and there will definitely be more on a much greater level. Ordinary Irish people will suffer as a result of this.
Tens of Billions of Euro belonged to those Irish people has been handed to a handful of privileged, private citizens who bankrolled Fianna Fail.

liammur

Welease wrote: »

and I suppose that is the crux of the issue for me.. While we wait for those who played a larger part to take their equal share (which won't happen), the debt continues to rack up, we fall even further behind in competitiveness and more people end up losing their jobs... At some stage, we need to start making huge cuts to rectify the situation.. This could and should have started a couple of years ago, but little continues to be done (on the scale required).

Pinning Seanie (and others) to the wall (while justified and should be done), won't actually solve any issues we are currently experiencing... that seems to be lost on a lot of people.

You seem to be getting overly stressed about this. If the government won't worry,then the citizens shouldn't worry. Junior ministers getting huge pay-offs and the like is what concerns our politicians the most. Until this attitude changes, I for one won't lose any sleep over the fate of the country.

Jane5

Some degree of economic literacy among the Irish is SORELY needed. I see on thread after thread, on forum after forum, many, many posters stating that "cuts and higher taxes are needed to fix the economy".

This is moronic. Last year, in the pub after the Budget, I almost got into a fight trying to explain the multiplier effect and how BASIC, not complex, but BASIC economics work. Looks like I have been proved right. I wish it had not been the case.

If you rip 4 billion out of the economy, the multiplier effect turns that into much, much more. Which causes a deterioration, not an improvement in the economic state of the country. Domestic demand and domestic consumption of goods and services is what keeps the country running, so to speak. If you take purchasing power away from lower and middle income earners, who form the majority of the population, then you seriously damage the economy, businesses close, more people on the dole, tax takes are less as people earn less.
Leaving the well off relatively unhurt does nothing for the economy, they are a minority and so their economic activity and purchases do not impact to a significant degree on the wider economy.

Now, as more end up on the dole due to businesses closing due to lack of demand and lack of disposable income, tax takes will fall, and number of welfare payments will rise. Those with jobs have taken paycuts and are hanging on by a thread, and have no discretionary income.

Now, geniuses, if you tax people more, if you cut more, this situation gets WORSE, not BETTER. This is not a difficult concept.

I just don't understand Irish economics sometimes. We were puzzling over it the other day. Demand falls for a certain product in Ireland, and Irish producers/sellers, 9 times out of 10, will RAISE the price of the product, not reduce it. What on earth is going through their heads? Drop the goddamn price, dramatically, and watch demand soar. American businesses do this all the time, and they stay in the game and stay ticking over, pay the bills, and increase profits when times improve.

If people do not improve their economic literacy, and wake up, there is no hope for this country. Higher taxes and cuts will deepen this hole until there is no escaping, if there is by now anyway.

George Orwell 1982

@Jane5

You are exactly right. But wait for the fox news brigade to come out.

The austerity measures were designed to do two things. First satisfy the bond market. Second reduce the deficit.

The bond spread has shot up and the deficit has ballooned.

While in Spain they engaged in stimilus and their deficit shrank. Only now are they implementing cutbacks.

ei.sdraob

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

The bond spread has shot up and the deficit has ballooned.

The spread shot up since people giving us money finally somewhat woke up to what sham NAMA and Anglo are, just like they woke up to finally realising that Greece were lying in their stats 6 months earlier
oh and our resident Boris Yeltsin didnt help matters

just checkout commentary on the above in the likes of FT and NYT in articles i linked to in last few weeks


i take it you are still advocating a "stimulus"? well please do tell what policies exactly will stimulate the economy AND pay back any borrowed money needed for a stimulus at over 6% interest in a decade??
dont forget we are already spending 20 billion a year we dont have and injecting it directly into the pockets of people via all sorts of welfare schemes

Sand

Jane, Ireland is a tiny open economy. We rise and fall with the global economy. Nobody calling for rationalistion of the Irish fiscal budget is blind to it hindering economic activity as the government spends less on domestic wages and services. I stress again - Ireland is a tiny open economy. The multiplier effect, being a theoretical concept, will always be debateable, but its more likely a lot smaller than you imagine it being given Irelands propensity to import.

Government spending boosts economic activity as a statistic. However that "economic activity" is funded on the back of borrowing. We must ask - is Ireland capacity to borrow at reasonable interest rates limitless?

If it isnt - what does that imply? Yes - that we must get our fiscal house in order as "economic activity" founded on the shifting sands of nervous international lender comes with an expiry date. If McCreevy had retained his portfolio and the independance to keep spending under control, if Ireland had come into this crisis with a warchest of savings instead of debts, or if we suddenly struck oil under Dail Eireann - Id say "Yeah, spend baby, spend". But none of those conditions exist.

If running a 25% deficit to pay crazy public sector wages and social welfare transfers was the path to riches and glory, then sure - were doing great. Lets increase the deficit to 50% so we all get richer, faster.

Ireland only has one hope - get its fiscal budget under control before lenders effectively refuse to lend to Ireland at anything other than ridiculous rates and pray, PRAY, for a global economic recovery that will carry us back up, with us doing everything possible to regain competiveness and making Ireland as easy and attractive a place to do bussiness as possible - for both domestic and foreign entrepreneurs.

We cant control global economy, but we do have control over our fiscal situation.

Jane5

Can someone clarify what they mean when they say "crazy PS wages" please?

While in all probability, they mean what I think they mean, unneccessary middle management, politicians, civil servants and the like, this needs to be clarified.

I am a non consultant hospital doctor in the PS. I have a net income of 3k a month after tax, PRSI, levies, pension deds and pension levies. We recently lost all training funding, and this month alone I paid 1k in training costs out of my own pocket, that I won't see again. Last month I paid 500 euros in Medical Council registration.

Now granted I hope to not have that kind of training expenses for a few months again, but with rent, bills, etc, I am well in the red. I cannot take another paycut. It would no longer be worth my while to stay here and work and run up debt to do so. I was paid more when I lived in NZ, and despite higher taxes, had much much more disposable income and could save.

My friends who are teachers are on my wage or less, depending on seniority. The single ones, not based in Dublin, house sharing, are doing ok. My friend who is a recently qualified nurse is on less. Most of us now are all struggling to some degree. This country is hellishly expensive.

Cutting pay is not the answer. Cutting State associated costs is.

ESB and State provided energy costs need to come WAY down.

Car tax needs to be abolished, and added instead to petrol in the form of cents per litre.

Rents need to come down.

Healthcare costs need to be subsidised or just plain reduced. My health insurance bill increases every few months. Pretty soon I will have to reduce our cover.

Cutting workers pay will not reduce the deficit. It will increase it. I promise. Whether we are an "open economy" is neither here nor there. If we are importing so much, it is because the costs associated with setting up businesses and manufacturing products ourselves here are so prohibitive. If these costs were drastically slashed and some removed, we would reduce our reliance on imports quickly, and could sell Irish made products and services at competitive prices.

Jane5

BTW, to anyone reading/commenting, I don't want or mean to invite PS bashing/doctor bashing etc by giving some of my personal details. That sort of thing is non-contributory to any kind of an informative discussion. I'm just trying to understand why logic is not being applied to our economic problems. I mean, beside the corruption, and vested interest stuff. I mean, even the Government must understand that if they improve our economic problems, we are more likely to be able to pay their debts and their buddies debts off like they want us to. :mad:

dunsandin

"We, the people of Ireland, have been living aways beyond our means. We simply have to tighten our belts".

Same old BS, new face on the fat cat. And the game goes on.

Sand

Can someone clarify what they mean when they say "crazy PS wages" please?

The average wage in the EBS is 73K Euro per year. The average wage in Bord Gais is 67K per year. CIE receive 300+ million plus from the Irish state on an annual basis to cover their wages which are 54K on average. These are *average* levels, in an economy where the GNP per capita is 35K in USD...so 26,000 Euro. Driving a bus is such a specialised skill, it apparently demands a wage in excess of 200% of the average Irish annual wealth. Id say if we went down a dole queue and looked for people willing to train up as a bus driver and work for say...30K per year...wed get enough takers.

We have seen the Irish Hospital Consultants Association describe a pay package greater than that of the Taoiseachs (who himself was on more than Barack Obama a short while ago) as "mickey mouse" wages..

Theres a general mantra out there when it comes to the public sector, that Ireland needs to pay over the odds to get the required expertise. Instead we pay well over the odds for poor to average returns.

Even if you disagree (and I assume you do given you are in the public sector), We are bringing in 33 billion or so per year in revenue. We are spending the best part of 40 billion between public sector pay and social welfare before any other spending is considered.

Cuts are going to come in both - its inescapable. Id prefer such cuts fall upon wages as opposed to services. If someone is unwilling to drive a bus for anything less than 54K per year, Id argue lets go find someone on a dole queue who is.

This country is hellishly expensive.

Cutting pay is not the answer.

The country is hellishly expensive, but inflation is coming from one significant source over the past decade - incredible inflation of credit in the Irish economy, which has been used by the Irish state (via taxes on a property bubble created and encouraged by the state) to boost social welfare massively, alongside incredible public sector wage inflation under the socalled "social partnership" cartel.

Wage increases being justified under cost simply increases those costs. Its like a dog chasing its tail.

As the amount of credit in the Irish economy has been decimated, so too wages and social welfare must fall. I think youll find the country becomes less expensive as wages fall.

Whether we are an "open economy" is neither here nor there. If we are importing so much, it is because the costs associated with setting up businesses and manufacturing products ourselves here are so prohibitive. If these costs were drastically slashed and some removed, we would reduce our reliance on imports quickly, and could sell Irish made products and services at competitive prices.

Unfortunately, us being in an open economy is very much here and there.

Youre right, costs need to be dramatically slashed, but unfortunately, the value for money in the health sector is very poor. We have massively increased spending on the health service over the past decade, and we still have patients stacked on trollies or lying on the floor waiting to be seen. Meanwhile, public sector trade unions are telling us, wage offers in excess of 100K euro are insulting to them. This sort of return is seen across the public sector, where wage increases are given immediately, and promised efficiencies are never delivered.

Were going to need value for money going forward. The party is over. The gravy train has ended. Very simply - the rest of the economy cant afford the public sector any more. I am sorry, but we cant.

waitingforBB

Jane5,
Agree with some of your points. Severe mismanagement of funds at the moment. Absoloutely agree we cannot tax our way out of recession. However, we still have one of the highest paid public service in the EU.

When we (thought) we had money, the government threw money at the PS to appease the unions and to sustain their existence. Even while the house of cards was falling down, FF decided to use smoke and mirrors (or smoke and daggers) to buy their own retention of power.

Is the solution now to say we accept that? that we cant correct the wrongs?
Should the overpaid continue to be overpaid because they feel entitled to it?
Agreed that much of the problem is in the mid to upper tiers of the PS, but do the teachers of Ireland deserve to be the 4th highest paid in the world? The consultants the highest paid in Europe?

My brother who got a middle of the road leaving cert is a primary school teacher, vice principal i believe of his small school. His gross salary is just under 60K. Home by 3:15 each day and enjoys summer in France with his family in the invesmtent property he bought in '03. Do I begrudge this? Not at all, he is my brother. But its indicative of the society we have evolved to. He had a rant about pension levies and we compared pay slips. I pay a whole lot more for a whole lot less.

I'm lucky to still retain a well paid job and I have no issue with providing for my future, even though its a significant percentage of my salary. If the market is good, I'll do ok in retirement. My brother laughs at me. Fool he calls out, why didnt you go into a guaranteed job for life with the big money when you retire. My answer is that I wasnt cut out for it and the PS was never an attraction for me.

You opened the door by stating your net income is 3K (after levies, taxes, pension etc). Would you mind expanding on that? i.e. what is your pension contribution and what is it worth in retirement?
Just curious to compare with other professionals and their net income and associated pension payments / returns.

Rgds,
WfBB

George Orwell 1982

ei.sdraob wrote: »

The spread shot up since people giving us money finally somewhat woke up to what sham NAMA and Anglo are, just like they woke up to finally realising that Greece were lying in their stats 6 months earlier
oh and our resident Boris Yeltsin didnt help matters

just checkout commentary on the above in the likes of FT and NYT in articles i linked to in last few weeks


i take it you are still advocating a "stimulus"? well please do tell what policies exactly will stimulate the economy AND pay back any borrowed money needed for a stimulus at over 6% interest in a decade??
dont forget we are already spending 20 billion a year we dont have and injecting it directly into the pockets of people via all sorts of welfare schemes

My point was (and you will see this if you read back through my posts) is that the govt. has to strike a delicate balance between reducing the deficit and not destroying the domestic economy. Hence the plan to reduce the deficit to 3% of GDP by 2014. Weasel and others seemed to be suggesting that it would be wise to dramatically and suddenly reduce the deficit. Also, my point was that the cutbacks aren't working, they are not reducing the deficit because tax revenues keep falling and the bond spreads are going up.

Our debt dynamics at the moment don't allow us do stimulus. That is a pity because its what Ireland needs now.