Religion is "child abuse" ??

Mark Hamill

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

But would you not just let them off to do their own thing if they do not ask for your opinion?

If they didn't ask my opinion, then I wouldn't know what their beliefs are, so I would have no reason to contradict their beliefs, seeing as I wouldn't know what they are.

Des Carter wrote: »

Im assuming that you would only attack someones beliefs if they put their beliefs out there in a form of a discussion - for example if they ask "Do you believe in God?"

How else can you put forward your belief, if not as part or beginning of a discussion?

Ickle Magoo

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Thats to do with institutionalised religion and the negative affects that a corrupt Church which used hold a lot of influence has on a society. - nothing to do with child indoctrination.

And how do you think negative effects are absorbed by the children who go on to have said issues? Watching the news? Reading newspapers about the church - or is it through their parents?

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And how do you think negative effects are absorbed by the children who go on to have said issues? Watching the news? Reading newspapers about the church - or is it through their parents?

I am not a sociologist and so I dont know but many of these issues are about the parents beliefs and not the person with the problem.

JohnMc1

Improbable wrote: »

Personal belief has nothing to do with truth. How do they know that their religion is the right one? They BELIEVE that it is but there is no logical reason to do so.

You can say the EXACT same thing about atheism. Its a still a matter of belief. I can understand and respect an atheists "Its just not for me" stance on religion but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.

pH

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

I can't help but think that if there was a Satanic cult that did the following:

• Shower infants in symbolic blood at their birth
• Mutilate a small bit of their bodies as a mark of their satanhood - maybe lop off an earlobe or a small "666" tattoo.
• Insist that the kids were given schools with "Satanic Ethos" - insist that these kids shouldn't be mixing with other children at school.
• Forced kids to learn by rote and repeat satanic chants.
• Forced kids to have a number of ceremonies where they praised Satan and pledged their lives to him. - Dress the little girls up as "brides" where they symbolically marry Satan.
• Forced children to partake in mock cannibalistic rituals where they're told they're eating flesh and drinking blood.
• Told their kids that Satan is always watching them and can punish or reward them for their behaviour.

Then there'd be an outcry and pretty much everyone would consider it "abuse", yet the mainstream religions can do all this and more and it's them just being nice to their kids and faithful to their beliefs.

Ickle Magoo

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

I am not a sociologist and so I dont know but many of these issues are about the parents beliefs and not the person with the problem.

That's my point - and the point of the thread...

gbee

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

JohnMc1 wrote: »

You can say the EXACT same thing about atheism. Its a still a matter of belief. .

Can't speak for every atheist, but I told my children there was no God and no Santa ... that did not stop the Christmas celebrations.

It did not stop them partaking of the RCC sacraments, they must have been amongst the few who 'passed' having been in a church only when taken there by their school. they were 'Baptised' for a quite life but were not brought up as RCC.

Children, especially children, don't need religion.

Zombrex

JohnMc1 wrote: »

You can say the EXACT same thing about atheism. Its a still a matter of belief. I can understand and respect an atheists "Its just not for me" stance on religion but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.

What? That makes no sense.

I understand people who say you shouldn't have sex with children, but that is still just a matter of belief. I undersand and respect them when they say "Its just not for me" on sex with children, but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.

See what I did there :rolleyes:

Child abuse is abuse to children. If something abuses a child, mentally or physically, it is child abuse. The fact that this abuse is based on a belief system is utterly irrelevant. Otherwise there would be nothing wrong with NAMBLA.

JohnMc1

Wicknight wrote: »

What? That makes no sense.

I understand people who say you shouldn't have sex with children, but that is still just a matter of belief. I undersand and respect them when they say "Its just not for me" on sex with children, but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.

See what I did there :rolleyes:

Child abuse is abuse to children. If something abuses a child, mentally or physically, it is child abuse. The fact that this abuse is based on a belief system is utterly irrelevant. Otherwise there would be nothing wrong with NAMBLA.

How the hell is wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others [traits surely lacking in society now] child abuse? Only a complete idiot or borderline retard would try to make a connection of parents bringing their children up in a religious home and values with child abuse. That's stupid and scraping the bottom of the barrel for an excuse to bash religion.

MagicMarker

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

JohnMc1 wrote: »

How the hell is wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others [traits surely lacking in society now] child abuse? Only a complete idiot or borderline retard would try to make a connection of parents bringing their children up in a religious home and values with child abuse. That's stupid and scraping the bottom of the barrel for an excuse to bash religion.

Wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others is not what we're talking about. How is that in any way related to religion?

Zombrex

JohnMc1 wrote: »

How the hell is wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others [traits surely lacking in society now] child abuse?

It isn't. How the hell is indoctrinating your child in your religion wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others?

If that is all you wanted to do it is utterly unnecessary to mention anything about religion.

But of course for theists that isn't what they want to do. They want to tell their children that all the supernatural nonsense they believe is true, and a lot of the supernatural nonsense is horrible nasty stuff designed to manipulate through intimidation.

And horrible nasty stuff design to manipulate through intimidation can very easily be child abuse.

This is the nonsense of religion, the idea that their stories of God sanctioned genocide and people being thrown into pits of fire is teaching "good morals"

It is like the KKK saying they are only teaching their children respect for their heritage :rolleyes:

JohnMc1

MagicMarker wrote: »

Wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others is not what we're talking about. How is that in any way related to religion?

Because some people on here are trying in vain to connect it with child abuse. Which is absolutely stupid and absurd.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Wicknight wrote: »

What? That makes no sense.

I understand people who say you shouldn't have sex with children, but that is still just a matter of belief. I undersand and respect them when they say "Its just not for me" on sex with children, but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.

See what I did there :rolleyes:

Child abuse is abuse to children. If something abuses a child, mentally or physically, it is child abuse. The fact that this abuse is based on a belief system is utterly irrelevant. Otherwise there would be nothing wrong with NAMBLA.

Are you really comparing teaching a child about religion to having sex with a child?

I can only assume you are pulling the p!ss cause if you are being serious you need to seek professional help straight away.

JohnMc1

Des Carter wrote: »

Are you really comparing teaching a child about religion to having sex with a child?

I can only assume you are pulling the p!ss cause if you are being serious you need to seek professional help straight away.

They're trying desperately to make a connection to suit their agenda and beliefs.

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

Are you really comparing teaching a child about religion to having sex with a child?

No, I'm comparing a religious person abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true with a paedophile abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true.

If you are abusing a child you are abusing a child.

Why you are abusing them is irrelevant. Saying well we are teaching them our religion and to be respectful to others doesn't make it not child abuse.

What is this idea theists have that they have the right to do anything and everything to their children so long as it is justifed by religion. You can't say it is child abuse because it is religion and just what the parents believe. Nonsense :rolleyes:

Zombrex

JohnMc1 wrote: »

They're trying desperately to make a connection to suit their agenda and beliefs.

Do you think a parent has the right to do what ever they like with their children so long as it is in line with their religion?

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Because some people on here are trying in vain to connect it with child abuse. Which is absolutely stupid and absurd.

Nobody here is trying to compare bringing your child up to be respectful of others to child abuse.
We're comparing bringing your child up to be disrespectful and ignorant to child abuse.

JohnMc1

Wicknight wrote: »

Do you think a parent has the right to do what ever they like with their children so long as it is in line with their religion?

Are you stupid or just pretending?

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Wicknight wrote: »

But of course for theists that isn't what they want to do. They want to tell their children that all the supernatural nonsense they believe is true, and a lot of the supernatural nonsense is horrible nasty stuff designed to manipulate through intimidation.

And horrible nasty stuff design to manipulate through intimidation can very easily be child abuse.

This is the nonsense of religion, the idea that their stories of God sanctioned genocide and people being thrown into pits of fire is teaching "good morals"

Ok slow down these may be the official teachings of the Church but the vast majority of Christians do not believe/teach this to thir their kids. Most Catholics teach the story of Jesus who did actually exist and that their is a God who loves them and looks after them. - often to comfort the child if they ever feel alone/sad etc.

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Are you stupid or just pretending?

Do you actually have an argument to make, or are you just around to insult people?

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Ok slow down these may be the official teachings of the Church but the vast majority of Christians do not believe/teach this to thir their kids. Most Catholics teach the story of Jesus who did actually exist and that their is a God who loves them and looks after them. - often to comfort the child if they ever feel alone/sad etc.

True, most certainly.
However, these are not the people the OP is talking about. The OP talks about those indoctrinating the children...

JohnMc1

Des Carter wrote: »

Ok slow down these may be the official teachings of the Church but the vast majority of Christians do not believe/teach this to thir their kids. Most Catholics teach the story of Jesus who did actually exist and that their is a God who loves them and looks after them. - often to comfort the child if they ever feel alone/sad etc.

Des Carter. You're trying to reason with someone who is not capable of being reasoned with [Ofcourse in his narrow mind us religious are uncapable of being reasoned with] He's dead set in his beliefs and that's it.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Wicknight wrote: »

No, I'm comparing a religious person abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true with a paedophile abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true.

If you are abusing a child you are abusing a child.

Why you are abusing them is irrelevant. Saying well we are teaching them our religion and to be respectful to others doesn't make it not child abuse.

Thats like comparing an Atheist person abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true with a paedophile abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true.

Why you are abusing them is irrelevant. Saying well we are teaching them our belief in no God and to be respectful to others doesn't make it not child abuse.

See this makes no sense just like YOUR argument.

Now can we please stop feeding the trolls!

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

Ok slow down these may be the official teachings of the Church but the vast majority of Christians do not believe/teach this to thir their kids.

You are basing that assessment on what exactly?

Des Carter wrote: »

Most Catholics teach the story of Jesus who did actually exist and that their is a God who loves them and looks after them. - often to comfort the child if they ever feel alone/sad etc.

And you can't teach a child about Jesus and God without eventually reading the Bible and getting to all the nasty stuff.

Friends of mine in a Catholic school were learning about Moses and Passover (which was an example of genocide) in primary school.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Shenshen wrote: »

True, most certainly.
However, these are not the people the OP is talking about. The OP talks about those indoctrinating the children...

But cant they be indoctrinated into believing the atheist point of view just as easily?

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

Thats like comparing an Atheist person abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true with a paedophile abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true.

Yes, it is.

Did I give you the impression that was in favor of atheists abusing their child?

I would feel as strongly about an atheist teaching their children that the Stalin purges were a good thing because Comrade Stalin loved the Russian people but knew they needed a strong sense of justice in order to survive.

robindch

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

John!

JohnMc1 wrote: »

a complete idiot or borderline retard

On behalf of A+A, can I say how thrilled we all are to have you back again! I still remember you from your tremendous first post in the 2008 christmas thread

Anyhow, that Jesus fellow said something to the effect that christians should be friendly to everybody. Do feel free to share in the full communion of Jesus' message, lest my satanic broom ascend from the depths of our ignorance, arrogance and pride to sweep you forthwithly from the forum.

Zombrex

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Des Carter. You're trying to reason with someone who is not capable of being reasoned with [Ofcourse in his narrow mind us religious are uncapable of being reasoned with] He's dead set in his beliefs and that's it.

I'm presenting arguments and reasons and you are just calling people stupid and other insults.

So how exactly are you attempting to "reason" with anyone here?

Could it be that you don't actually have a defense?

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Wicknight wrote: »

You are basing that assessment on what exactly?

Talking to every Catholic I know and common sense. Im sure what your describing does happen and when it does it is definately wrong but being realistic it doesnt happen often.

Wicknight wrote: »

And you can't teach a child about Jesus and God without eventually reading the Bible and getting to all the nasty stuff.

Friends of mine in a Catholic school were learning about Moses and Passover (which was an example of genocide) in primary school.

Sorry to correct you but CHRISTianity is about the teachings of Jesus CHRIST and not the Old Testamont so that is an example of the school failing. The OT are just stories with morals (like parables) and are not to be taken literally.

JohnMc1

robindch wrote: »

John!On behalf of A+A, can I say how thrilled we all are to have you back again! I still remember you from your tremendous first post in the 2008 christmas thread

Anyhow, that Jesus fellow said something to the effect that christians should be friendly to everybody. Do feel free to share in the full communion of Jesus' message, lest my satanic broom ascend from the depths of our ignorance, arrogance and pride to sweep you forthwithly from the forum.

Robindch. Trying to connect Religion with child abuse is stupid. Those posts were not directed at anybody [though if the shoe fits] The only ignorance and arrogance on here is the ones thinking Religious parents are abusing their children. Atheist claim to be smarter and more tolerant and open minded compared to Religious people. Maybe you guys should practice what you preach as well.

pH

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Ok slow down these may be the official teachings of the Church but the vast majority of Christians do not believe/teach this to thir their kids. Most Catholics teach the story of Jesus who did actually exist and that their is a God who loves them and looks after them. - often to comfort the child if they ever feel alone/sad etc.

But Des, this isn't what really happens, religious indoctrination is not about teaching children warm happy stories so they can sleep at night.

It's about making them participate in religious ceremonies (even as infants)
It's about making them take oaths and make pronouncements about God as 6 and 7 year olds.
It's about making them get into a wardrobe with an old man and tell him all the times they've been really naughty
It's about making them pretend to eat flesh and drink blood.
It's about making them publicly commit to a God in a ceremony when they're 12.
It's about making them go to a special school which segregates them by religion.
It's about countless hours or learning prayers and repeating them endlessly in group chants.
It's about dressing them differently so they stand out and are marked by their parents faith.

JohnMc1

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm presenting arguments and reasons and you are just calling people stupid and other insults.

So how exactly are you attempting to "reason" with anyone here?

Could it be that you don't actually have a defense?

No you are not. You are using this as an excuse to bash Christianity and Religion altogether.

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

The OT are just stories with morals (like parables) and are not to be taken literally.

Jesus disagrees with you, as does every mainstream Christian church (and most of the non-mainstream ones). :rolleyes:

If you don't actually represent Christianity then there is little point in discussing this with you pretending to represent the Christian position.

Zombrex

JohnMc1 wrote: »

No you are not. You are using this as an excuse to bash Christianity and Religion altogether.

I'm using it to bash child abuse carried out in the name of Christianity and religion.

You apparently don't think it is child abuse, which you are entitled to your opinion. But unless you have an actual argument as to why you are right and I'm wrong you are contributing nothing to this debate other than insulting people.

The more times you call people here stupid idiots while present zero arguments or points to back up your position the less likely anyone here is to trust that you know what you are talking about when you say trust me this doesn't abuse children.

Like a lot of religious people you seem filled with hate, so why exactly would we think you aren't going to pass that on to your children using religion as an excuse?

Dades

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Trying to connect Religion with child abuse is stupid. Those posts were not directed at anybody [though if the shoe fits]

Forum etiquette usually dictates you direct your disagreement towards those who you specifically disagree with.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Atheist claim to be smarter and more tolerant and open minded compared to Religious people. Maybe you guys should practice what you preach as well.

Again, you'll note that not everyone in this thread is in agreement with the posters you have issue with.

Try to remember that just because something is posted in A&A it's not part of our imaginary doctrine.

Oh, and stop insulting people (overtly or otherwise) or your opportunity to disagree with be revoked.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

pH wrote: »

But Des, this isn't what really happens, religious indoctrination is not about teaching children warm happy stories so they can sleep at night.

It's about making them participate in religious ceremonies (even as infants)
It's about making them take oaths and make pronouncements about God as 6 and 7 year olds.
It's about making them get into a wardrobe with an old man and tell him all the times they've been really naughty
It's about making them pretend to eat flesh and drink blood.
It's about making them publicly commit to a God in a ceremony when they're 12.
It's about making them go to a special school which segregates them by religion.
It's about countless hours or learning prayers and repeating them endlessly in group chants.
It's about dressing them differently so they stand out and are marked by their parents faith.

is there really anything wrong about bringing a child to mass?
Again most people I know have good memories of their 1st communion - meet with friends and family, get money etc.
Confession is more a phsycological thing - talking about things you feel guilty about etc.
Again 1st communion was mentioned above and children do not actually drink the wine.
Again confirmation was great craic - money friends etc and most parents/children dont see it as geting married to god.
Special schools - maybe in the past but most schools today let all religions in.
Again these are just some extreme cases.
I have never seen someone dressed differently due to Christian beliefs.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Wicknight wrote: »

Jesus disagrees with you, as does every mainstream Christian church (and most of the non-mainstream ones). :rolleyes:

If you don't actually represent Christianity then there is little point in discussing this with you pretending to represent the Christian position.

When exactly did Jesus say that the OT was to be taken literally?

And wrong again the church has said itself that Adam and Eve never actually existed so please get your facts right before making points.

Dades

Des Carter wrote: »

Sorry to correct you but CHRISTianity is about the teachings of Jesus CHRIST and not the Old Testamont so that is an example of the school failing. The OT are just stories with morals (like parables) and are not to be taken literally.

Ha - you posted the same thing before. I responded here, and oddly enough never got a response.

To recap:

Dades wrote:

Des Carter wrote: »

Again you are talking about the Old Testament - Something I as a Christian dont believe in. It is a load of rubbish if it is to be taken literally. I have said this numerous times that it is the Catholic Church who push these teachings - not Jesus. CHRISTianity should be about the teachings of Jesus CHRIST.

This is getting laughable. How can you with a straight face dismiss the Old Testament, as if it's as simple as preferring Toy Story 2, over the original. If the Old Testament is rubbish - so is the New Testament. It doesn't matter how well you relate to the teaching of the man Jesus - it's the same God. It's Jesus' father. And if you don't believe it's Jesus' father you are no more a Christian than me.

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

is there really anything wrong about bringing a child to mass?

You have gone from all parents teach their children is about how God loves them, to brining them to mass where children are taught a lot more than that.

The last mass I was at a few months ago the priest spend the entire time talking about avoiding hell.

So this idea that children are shielded from these bits of their religion is nonsense.

Des Carter wrote: »

Again most people I know have good memories of their 1st communion - meet with friends and family, get money etc.

It sounds like most of your friends didn't have a clue what was happening to them.

If that is the case you are making our argument for us. We have no problem not teaching children religion.

Des Carter wrote: »

Confession is more a phsycological thing - talking about things you feel guilty about etc.

No, it is talking about thing the Church has told you you should feel guilty about. Part of religious up brining in Catholic church is the indoctrination of moral beliefs.

So again we have moved quite far from your quite unrealistic notion that at this age all children are taught is that God loves them.

JohnMc1

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm using it to bash child abuse carried out in the name of Christianity and religion.

You apparently don't think it is child abuse, which you are entitled to your opinion. But unless you have an actual argument as to why you are right and I'm wrong you are contributing nothing to this debate other than insulting people.

The more times you call people here stupid idiots while present zero arguments or points to back up your position the less likely anyone here is to trust that you know what you are talking about when you say trust me this doesn't abuse children.

Like a lot of religious people you seem filled with hate, so why exactly would we think you aren't going to pass that on to your children using religion as an excuse?

LOL. The only person here filled with hate is you. You're claiming a straw man argument that Religion=child abuse which is absolutely absurd.

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

When exactly did Jesus say that the OT was to be taken literally?

Multiple places. He referred to the Hebrew laws as the Word of God, he referred to Moses as a literal person, he referred to David as a literal person.

In fact the basis for Jesus' divity is based on OT prophecy. As Dades says if the OT is just a story then Jesus has no basis as the Messiah.

Pop over to the Christian forum and ask them if the OT testament is just a bunch of stories with a moral message, or if it is to be taken as a historical record of the Israelites

Des Carter wrote: »

And wrong again the church has said itself that Adam and Eve never actually existed so please get your facts right before making points.

No it doesn't

http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp
http://whynotcatholicism.net/view.php?i=17

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

This is getting laughable. How can you with a straight face dismiss the Old Testament, as if it's as simple as preferring Toy Story 2, over the original. If the Old Testament is rubbish - so is the New Testament. It doesn't matter how well you relate to the teaching of the man Jesus - it's the same God. It's Jesus' father. And if you don't believe it's Jesus' father you are no more a Christian than me.

If the old testament is rubbish then why cant the New Testament be true?

Yes it is the same God but as I said the OT are just stories explaining him.

Zombrex

JohnMc1 wrote: »

LOL. The only person here filled with hate is you. You're claiming a straw man argument that Religion=child abuse which is absolutely absurd.

Once again you bowl me over with your logic and reasoning :rolleyes:

I've given you a chance to put forward an argument. You didn't. I'm ready to call troll alert on you.

Good bye.

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

If the old testament is rubbish then why cant the New Testament be true?

Yes it is the same God but as I said the OT are just stories explaining him.

Because the New Testament is meant to be a fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament and the law of the Old Testament.

If these things never actually happened then the New Testament has no basis.

Seriously pop over to the Christian forum and see how far you get with the notion that nothing in the Old Testament actually happened.

JohnMc1

Wicknight wrote: »

Once again you bowl me over with your logic and reasoning :rolleyes:

Yes yours is so much better. :rolleyes:

I've given you a chance to put forward an argument. You didn't. I'm ready to call troll alert on you.

Your whole argument screams troll alert. You made outrageous and absolute baseless accusations. Don't cry because you're not being taken seriously.

robindch

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Trying to connect Religion with child abuse is stupid.

Judges Murphy and Ryan think not.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

The only ignorance and arrogance on here is the ones thinking Religious parents are abusing their children.

As Dades has already pointed out, you will notice that there's little agreement within this forum about whether or not religious indoctrination constitutes "abuse".

For the record, I personally don't believe that most of it does. However, I have seen instances at first hand where it certainly does, and in these specific cases, the word "abuse", in my mind, barely begins to describe the violation that was executed.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Atheist claim to be smarter and more tolerant and open minded compared to Religious people. Maybe you guys should practice what you preach as well.

One does not practice "tolerance" by tolerating the abuse of children.

pH

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

is there really anything wrong about bringing a child to mass?

Why should children be forced to participate in deity worship.

Again most people I know have good memories of their 1st communion - meet with friends and family, get money etc.

It doesn't matter how you dress it up (and the fact that people have had to add non-religious trappings to it to make the whole thing more palatable to kids) forcing kids to participate in mock cannibalism at the age of 7 is plainly wrong - the fact you give them a few quid to make it bearable is besides the point.

Confession is more a phsycological thing - talking about things you feel guilty about etc.

Ahh yes, Catholic confession is now more like a therapy session, not a terrifyingly creepy encounter with an old man in a dimly lit wardrobe to whom you've got to tell all your sins.

Again 1st communion was mentioned above and children do not actually drink the wine.

The fact that you even consider that the thing I'd be worried most about about kids partaking in mock cannibalism is that they might get a sip of altar wine shows how far apart we are in our thinking.

Again confirmation was great craic - money friends etc and most parents/children dont see it as geting married to god.

Ahh yes, make the religious experience tolerable by getting the parents to pay their kids to go through it - so much better. I'm not sure what to think of the fact that your defence for:

by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed.

Is that the parents don't really see it that way.

Special schools - maybe in the past but most schools today let all religions in.

Not in Ireland today - you can either go to one of 95% of schools which teach a pervasive "catholic" ethos throughout the entire curriculum, or a C of I school )or if you happen to live in the right area and get your name down there are a few ET schools). Your warm and open offer to indoctrinate all children with your faith not withstanding, children all over the world are segregated by faith - just look up north.

I have never seen someone dressed differently due to Christian beliefs.

Ah but Christianity is not all religion - there are others you know.

JohnMc1

robindch wrote: »

One does not practice "tolerance" by tolerating the abuse of children.

LOL @ the ignorance in this post. You want to make ignorant posts don't cry when I say its ignorant.

Ickle Magoo

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

JohnMc1 wrote: »

LOL @ the ignorance in this post. You want to make ignorant posts don't cry when I say its ignorant.

You want to advocate childhood indoctrination, don't cry when people say its child abuse...

JohnMc1

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You want to advocate childhood indoctrination, don't cry when people say its child abuse...

LOL @ even more ignorance.