Religion is "child abuse" ??

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

If the idea doesn't deserve respect, why respect it?

Because if they think it does, then you're just coming across as offensive and not going to be listened to.
edit: not that you respect IT, but you respect them and much as I hate the mixing of person/beliefs, being respectful extends to respectful discussion. I can't think how many times I would honestly say "no that's a stupid idea and we're not discussing it" to someone who really thought they had a good idea.

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

bluewolf wrote: »

Because if they think it does, then you're just coming across as offensive and not going to be listened to.
edit: not that you respect IT, but you respect them and much as I hate the mixing of person/beliefs, being respectful extends to respectful discussion. I can't think how many times I would honestly say "no that's a stupid idea and we're not discussing it" to someone who really thought they had a good idea.

I never said I wouldn't be respectful towards the persons involved.
However, I have in the past been given out to for not respecting somebody's believes, because I was making it clear that I don't share them, and don't think of them in a positive way.
What would you suggest? Never discussing any ideas at all any more, because disagreeing with them is of course automatically disrespectful towards those ideas?

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

I never said I wouldn't be respectful towards the persons involved.
However, I have in the past been given out to for not respecting somebody's believes, because I was making it clear that I don't share them, and don't think of them in a positive way.
What would you suggest? Never discussing any ideas at all any more, because disagreeing with them is of course automatically disrespectful towards those ideas?

No, I was more responding to sonic's:

...while tearing their beliefs to bits. I do it frequently with theistic friends and they know that the fact that I do not share their belief in fairy tales does not impact on my feelings for them.

IF you're being offensive about it then I would say be more moderate. But in the case you've described above, I don't know. If someone can't even have a basic civil discussion with you just because you don't agree... I think I would have very little time for them in general and not bother discussing.

AudreyHepburn

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Shenshen wrote: »

I never said I wouldn't be respectful towards the persons involved.
However, I have in the past been given out to for not respecting somebody's believes, because I was making it clear that I don't share them, and don't think of them in a positive way.
What would you suggest? Never discussing any ideas at all any more, because disagreeing with them is of course automatically disrespectful towards those ideas?

Perhaps in those cases where you were accussed of being disrespectful it was the tone of your argument or the way you put across the fact that you didn't share their ideas that was the issue?

Not to suggest you went out of your way to be disrespectful, I'm sure you didn't. But it may have been percieved that way.

Respecting some-ones ideas does not equal 'tearing them to bits' as another poster put.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Dan133269 wrote: »

You are quite right, taking the chance of damning them to hell would be inexcusable. The logical extension of this, is of course that a parent should kill their child as soon as they are born before they have a chance to commit any sin(s) and so they will go straight to heaven, as if you allow them live their life there is the risk they will sin and go to hell. If you value the eternal well-being of your child(ren) over your own, you shoud therefore kill them as soon as they are out of the womb.

Why do you thimk abortion rates are so high?

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Perhaps in those cases where you were accussed of being disrespectful it was the tone of your argument or the way you put across the fact that you didn't share their ideas that was the issue?

Not to suggest you went out of your way to be disrespectful, I'm sure you didn't. But it may have been percieved that way.

Respecting some-ones ideas does not equal 'tearing them to bits' as another poster put.

Well, the belief I didn't share in the particular case was that my mother should never have left my abusive father, and that a woman's place was in the house, not outside of it stealing men's jobs.

The notion was brought forward by my grandfather, who I of course respect as a grandfather. His ideas and beliefs, on the other hand, I find utterly abominable.

The problem with the whole notion of respect when it comes to beliefs and discussions is that most people will try and claim respect as a figure of authority, and then stretch that respect to cover all they want you to believe.
So I will respect people, but I will not respect beliefs.

AudreyHepburn

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, the belief I didn't share in the particular case was that my mother should never have left my abusive father, and that a woman's place was in the house, not outside of it stealing men's jobs.

The notion was brought forward by my grandfather, who I of course respect as a grandfather. His ideas and beliefs, on the other hand, I find utterly abominable.

The problem with the whole notion of respect when it comes to beliefs and discussions is that most people will try and claim respect as a figure of authority, and then stretch that respect to cover all they want you to believe.
So I will respect people, but I will not respect beliefs.

That was abominable, I agree with you there. Hope your Mum's ok now!

But in that case maybe it would have been easier to just say "I don't agree with that or respect but I can respect that it is what you believe" and then just walked away and left it.

At least that's how I handle beliefs I don't share.

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

That was abominable, I agree with you there. Hope your Mum's ok now!

But in that case maybe it would have been easier to just say "I don't agree with that or respect but I can respect that it is what you believe" and then just walked away and left it.

At least that's how I handle beliefs I don't share.

I guess you're lucky then that you haven't yet had to face somebody whose believes, even though you don't share them, will have significant impact on your life....
It's nice if you can walk away from it, but not everybody always has that luxury.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Is teaching your children "all religion is wrong and unhealthy" not just as bad or even worse than teaching your child "there is a God". Of course there are cases (especially in America and in Muslim countries) where the parents go over the top (i.e psycho religious - Gays are evil - you will burn in hell for diobeying your elders etc) but I am fairly sure that there are VERY few cases like this in Ireland (of course there are no stats to back this up but there are none to suggest otherwise).

Ickle Magoo

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Is teaching your children "all religion is wrong and unhealthy" not just as bad or even worse than teaching your child "there is a God". Of course there are cases (especially in America and in Muslim countries) where the parents go over the top (i.e psycho religious - Gays are evil - you will burn in hell for diobeying your elders etc) but I am fairly sure that there are VERY few cases like this in Ireland (of course there are no stats to back this up but there are none to suggest otherwise).

Sorry, who is teaching kids that "all religion is wrong and unhealthy"?

A quick browse of PI or RI would bring you a raft of issues caused by guilt, others being "morally" judgemental, homophobia and reams of emotional and sexual issues stemming from religious parents right here in Ireland and right up to current date.

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Is teaching your children "all religion is wrong and unhealthy" not just as bad or even worse than teaching your child "there is a God". Of course there are cases (especially in America and in Muslim countries) where the parents go over the top (i.e psycho religious - Gays are evil - you will burn in hell for diobeying your elders etc) but I am fairly sure that there are VERY few cases like this in Ireland (of course there are no stats to back this up but there are none to suggest otherwise).

How about just teaching your child, this is what mummy believes in, this is what daddy believes in, and this is what x believes in?

Why do people always assume that the opposite of teaching children to believe in the same thing as the parents do is to teach them to believe in the opposite?

Dades

Des Carter wrote: »

Is teaching your children "all religion is wrong and unhealthy" not just as bad or even worse than teaching your child "there is a God"....

Whether it's as bad or any worse depends on the specifics - but I'd agree teaching kids blanket statements like that is unhealthy. I also doubt many (if any) here would advocate it.

The ideal is to teach them all the history of all options and allow them to make up their own mind, though the reality is your own beliefs are always going to be given more emphasis.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Sorry, who is teaching kids that "all religion is wrong and unhealthy"?

Im guessing some (not all) atheists for a start.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

A quick browse of PI or RI would bring you a raft of issues caused by guilt, others being "morally" judgemental, homophobia

Guilt - generally guilty about cheating
"morally judgemental" - That was just 1 post.
Homophobia - would still exist irregardless of wheather the Church promotes it or not and I really dont think Christian parents are teaching their children "Gays are evil" etc.

QUOTE=Ickle Magoo;68232792]and reams of emotional and sexual issues stemming from PROMISCUITY. [/QUOTE]

fixed that last bit for you.

Mark Hamill

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Respecting some-ones ideas does not equal 'tearing them to bits' as another poster put.

Why not? I dont think I could respect someone that couldn't handle their ideas being torn to bits.

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

I am fairly sure that there are VERY few cases like this in Ireland (of course there are no stats to back this up but there are none to suggest otherwise).

Er, that is a bit of an odd statement given we have just come out of one of the worst sexual abuse scandals in the world, as scandal largely facilitated by the misplaced position of priests in society because of religious doctrine.

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Guilt - generally guilty about cheating

Or, in my mother's case, guilt about not being able to stand being beaten up regularly any more...

Homophobia - would still exist irregardless of wheather the Church promotes it or not and I really dont think Christian parents are teaching their children "Gays are evil" etc.

No, Muslim parents do that, too, of course.
But that doesn't excuse Christian parents doing it.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Shenshen wrote: »

How about just teaching your child, this is what mummy believes in, this is what daddy believes in, and this is what x believes in?

Why do people always assume that the opposite of teaching children to believe in the same thing as the parents do is to teach them to believe in the opposite?

Ya I totally agree but many here seem to think a christian upbringing means that every aspect of the Churches beliefs are forced onto the children which for the most part is untrue. I was just emphasizing the point by making a sweeping statement about the way Atheists raise their children to show how untrue these generalisations are.

The fact is no one knows if there is or isnt a "God", or if there is which religion (if any) is correct so the best we can do is teach our kids to be respectful of others and to live a good life.

Mark Hamill

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But in that case maybe it would have been easier to just say "I don't agree with that or respect but I can respect that it is what you believe" and then just walked away and left it.

At least that's how I handle beliefs I don't share.

Why should she do that? Regardless of wether the opportunity is there or not to leave? Why wait for someones abominal believes to personally effect you before deconstructing it, especially if that belief was volunteered? Someone puts their beliefs out in the real word, then they are there to be challenged.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Wicknight wrote: »

Er, that is a bit of an odd statement given we have just come out of one of the worst sexual abuse scandals in the world, as scandal largely facilitated by the misplaced position of priests in society because of religious doctrine.

i should have rephrased that to say "in Ireland today". as in modern day Ireland.

Des Carter

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Shenshen wrote: »

Or, in my mother's case, guilt about not being able to stand being beaten up regularly any more...

Im sorry to hear about your mother but I really dont see how a Chatholic upbringing would teach that you cant stand up for yourself

Shenshen wrote: »

No, Muslim parents do that, too, of course.
But that doesn't excuse Christian parents doing it.

In my original post I said that when these teachings are enforced then it is wrong but in the majority of cases in modern Ireland this does not happen - but when it does then it is wrong.

AudreyHepburn

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why not? I dont think I could respect someone that couldn't handle their ideas being torn to bits.

Seriously?

So you'd rather deal with some-one who stood there and let you destroy whatever they believed in, even if it ruined their lives?

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Ya I totally agree but many here seem to think a christian upbringing means that every aspect of the Churches beliefs are forced onto the children which for the most part is untrue. I was just emphasizing the point by making a sweeping statement about the way Atheists raise their children to show how untrue these generalisations are.

The fact is no one knows if there is or isnt a "God", or if there is which religion (if any) is correct so the best we can do is teach our kids to be respectful of others and to live a good life.

It's kind of funny, you must be about the 4th or 5th person coming on claiming that bringing up a child with a Christian background doesn't mean that all the most extreme beliefs of Christianity are force-fed to the poor mite, and anyway it's only a few people doing that at all... when the OP clearly asked if should be the parents' right to INDOCTRINATE their child.

The link between a mildly religious upbringing and indoctrination seems to be made exclusively by believers.

Zombrex

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Seriously?

So you'd rather deal with some-one who stood there and let you destroy whatever they believed in, even if it ruined their lives?

If it is true, yes.

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Im sorry to hear about your mother but I really dont see how a Chatholic upbringing would teach that you cant stand up for yourself

It teaches that a wife's place is with her husband.

In my original post I said that when these teachings are enforced then it is wrong but in the majority of cases in modern Ireland this does not happen - but when it does then it is wrong.

So you agree with the majority here that the parents should not have the right to indoctrinate their children?

AudreyHepburn

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Wicknight wrote: »

If it is true, yes.

That kind of attitude is the height of ignorance and cruelty in my opinion.

Ickle Magoo

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Im guessing some (not all) atheists for a start.

Guessing? Oh good, it'd be awful if you were just plucking statements out of your ass-hat.

Des Carter wrote: »

Guilt - generally guilty about cheating
"morally judgemental" - That was just 1 post.
Homophobia - would still exist irregardless of wheather the Church promotes it or not and I really dont think Christian parents are teaching their children "Gays are evil" etc.

No, it's not just one post or guilt about cheating. There are plenty threads from posters breaking their hearts because their parents have disowned them because they've said they are gay, who can't enjoy fulfilling sex lives or who are so emotionally stunted they can barely have a relationship with someone else and although certainly not always at fault, religion certainly is a recurring theme.

Des Carter wrote: »

QUOTE=Ickle Magoo;68232792]and reams of emotional and sexual issues stemming from PROMISCUITY.

fixed that last bit for you.

You mangled the quotes, hardly fixing anything - but ironically highlighting exactly the kind of right wing-ivory tower bleaters I'm talking about.

Shenshen

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Seriously?

So you'd rather deal with some-one who stood there and let you destroy whatever they believed in, even if it ruined their lives?

Would you be able to respect somebody who is living a lie, just because it's more comfortable?

AudreyHepburn

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Shenshen wrote: »

Would you be able to respect somebody who is living a lie, just because it's more comfortable?

If it wasn't hurting anyone and made them feel happy and secure then yes.

Mark Hamill

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Seriously?

So you'd rather deal with some-one who stood there and let you destroy whatever they believed in, even if it ruined their lives?

So I should respect someone whose life would be ruined if their beliefs are shown to be flawed? Why should I respect someone who is so enamored with a belief that a rebuttal of it will damage their lives?

Seriously, if I respect someone, I treat them like an adult and point out flaws in their arguments. And I would expect them to act an adult and (assuming my points were valid) to accept the flaws, change their beliefs to something more accurate and therefore improve themselves.

Zombrex

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

That kind of attitude is the height of ignorance and cruelty in my opinion.

Why exactly? Ever heard the truth shall set you free?