Fine Gael - Taking pettiness to a new level.

dvpower

MrDarcy wrote: »

No, what it is in fact is a load of sheer and utter bullsh*t. Kid's in high school on another continent I argue are really not a part of our solution right now in all fairness. This is first of all a junket, look, forget about the junket for a minute, here's the key thing and the salient point yet again: CAN THE RETURN ON THIS OUTLAY BE MEASURED IN TERMS OF NEW JOB CREATION?????

Yes. Jobs in the 3rd level education sector here.
But don't take FFs word for it. Its also a major policy objective of FG

Fine Gael wrote:

The international education market is worth billions globally. For twelve years, Government has been promising to capitalise on this potential but has failed to do so. Fine Gael has proposed a radical plan to double the number of international students in five years, bringing revenue in this sector to €1.8bn annually and creating at least 6,000 jobs.

• The international education sector is worth billions globally, with over three million students studying abroad but Ireland only holds 1% of the market
• The sector currently generates €900m annually; €500m in English Language Courses and €400m in higher education
• There are close to 40,000 non-EEA (European Economic Area) students currently studying in Ireland. Fore every 100 students, it is estimated that 15 local jobs are created.
• The current system is inhibited by a lack of co-operation between Departments and agencies involved and a slow and inconsistent immigration system which has developed a poor reputation internationally.

MrDarcy

dvpower wrote: »

Yes. Jobs in the 3rd level education sector here.
But don't take FFs word for it. Its also a major policy objective of FG

My point is that given the absolute state that the country is in, we no longer have the luxury of just having "a policy" on something. The situation with unemployment is nothing less than critical. We actually don't have time for arsing around with things that, "might" create jobs.

This whole approch is consistent with everything that this government does when it tries to do something on jobs, which is give two fingers to Irish people and immediately look to some other country for a solution.

The only answer that this revolting excuse for a government has when it comes to job creation is to throw money at the problem and give the IDA a blank cheque to wine and dine CEO's in the hope of bringing some FDI here.

If the attitude towards enterprise was even half right in this country, we'd be designing, developing and exporting top end technological products here from concept to delivery.

zootroid

Fine Gael have been shown up for being childish, Kenny's attitude has shown him up to be what he is - a teacher who became a politician.

He should have taken the pragmatic approach, said that he is withdrawing from the pairing agreement unless it is of national importance.

Labour come out of it looking well, a lot of people will think that they won't get drawn into childish party politics.

As for the trip itself, I have little confidence that it will be a success. Afterall, Coughlan is leading it. And I also think how FF treat the Dail is a disgrace.

But Fine Gael have shown they lack maturity, and I think they will lose some standing with the voters over it

Liam Byrne

bcirl03 wrote: »

Does this not prove that Labour are willing to talk with FF i.e. into government with them?

Hopefully not, because if it does then my voting options have been SERIOUSLY narrowed.

flutered

if this junket or whatever people like to call it involves jobs, then why in the name of drinking until 4am is not the minister for immigration going there, also is he not a former minister for education.

Sand

I think its a good step, so long as its a change in policy by FG as opposed to mere opportunism.

The Dail needs to become relevant, to stop being a rubber stamp. The sheer contempt with which the Dail is viewed by the government, and the way the parties have co-operated with institutionising this contempt by means of trading votes is wrong. If FG follow up by introducing secret ballots in the Dail to break the whip system, and also bar any sitting TD from serving as a member of Cabinet, then they will have made a good start introducing sensible government to Ireland.

MrDarcy

zootroid wrote: »

Fine Gael have been shown up for being childish, Kenny's attitude has shown him up to be what he is - a teacher who became a politician.

He should have taken the pragmatic approach, said that he is withdrawing from the pairing agreement unless it is of national importance.

Labour come out of it looking well, a lot of people will think that they won't get drawn into childish party politics.

As for the trip itself, I have little confidence that it will be a success. Afterall, Coughlan is leading it. And I also think how FF treat the Dail is a disgrace.

But Fine Gael have shown they lack maturity, and I think they will lose some standing with the voters over it

A teacher running the country, in all seriousness could you envisage anything more dangerous???

The thing is, call me an absolutist, but if this government are THAT bad, (and they are!), and people are suffering SO much, (and they are it would seem to me anyway), then what kind of leader is Enda Kenny when he isn't calling people out onto the streets until this government is gone???

Like either we need a result here and we need rid of this government or else we don't??? What kind of a political coward is Kenny??? What is needed here is action, what is the man at fannying around with the withdrawal of a pairing arrangement, knowing that it will only inconvenience a government that has absolutely no intention of going anywhere until it is forced to do so???

bmaxi

hallelujajordan wrote: »

On the contrary, people are more interested in job creation than they are in who sits around the cabinet table . . This move by Gilmore certainly does help Labour take the high moral ground but at what cost ? An even bigger wedge between them and their future coalition partners.

Sorry, I can't agree. The prospect of any jobs coming on stream from this little junket are minimal. On the streets the feeling is that nothing is being done to bring the perpetrators of excess and incompetence to account. Letting Coughlan slip away and not subjecting her to rigorous questioning about the corruption at Fás, will not, IMO, sit well with the working class, traditional supporters of Labour.
As I alluded to earlier, if Coughlan was so interested in job creation, she could at least have spoken to O'Leary about S.R.Technlcs.

Avns1s

MrDarcy wrote: »

A teacher running the country, in all seriousness could you envisage anything more dangerous???

The thing is, call me an absolutist, but if this government are THAT bad, (and they are!), and people are suffering SO much, (and they are it would seem to me anyway), then what kind of leader is Enda Kenny when he isn't calling people out onto the streets until this government is gone???

Like either we need a result here and we need rid of this government or else we don't??? What kind of a political coward is Kenny??? What is needed here is action, what is the man at fannying around with the withdrawal of a pairing arrangement, knowing that it will only inconvenience a government that has absolutely no intention of going anywhere until it is forced to do so???

Apart from defeating the government in a vote, how else are they going to be dethroned??

dvpower

MrDarcy wrote: »

My point is that given the absolute state that the country is in, we no longer have the luxury of just having "a policy" on something. The situation with unemployment is nothing less than critical. We actually don't have time for arsing around with things that, "might" create jobs.

This whole approch is consistent with everything that this government does when it tries to do something on jobs, which is give two fingers to Irish people and immediately look to some other country for a solution.

The only answer that this revolting excuse for a government has when it comes to job creation is to throw money at the problem and give the IDA a blank cheque to wine and dine CEO's in the hope of bringing some FDI here.

If the attitude towards enterprise was even half right in this country, we'd be designing, developing and exporting top end technological products here from concept to delivery.

The government can't just create jobs (unless you want them to directly hire more public servants:eek:). All they can do is try and create the policy conditions to try and help others create jobs and try and sell our advantages to potrential investors and customers.

Ireland has been successful in the past in bringing in FDI, but we relied on it too much. With this education idea we are currently punching below our weight. We have a lot of advantages; english speaking, a reputation for friendliness, our education system still has a good reputation abroad. This is a good idea that we should be supporting.
Now it may be the the government are doing the sales bit by going off to the states, but aren't doing the groundwork at home (like fast tracking visa for international students). I don't know, but FG are being childish in playing politics with this, an area where they have criticised the government in the past for not doing enough.

MrDarcy

Avns1s wrote: »

Apart from defeating the government in a vote, how else are they going to be dethroned??

By people doing what they did in Iceland, downing tools and sitting outside the national parliment and staying there until they get an election...

http://www.theage.com.au/business/world-business/crisis-protests-bring-down-icelands-government-20090127-7q50.html

Johnny Murphy FF

Fine Gael are west brits, give me a real Irish political party anyday!

dvpower

Did anyone see my troll? I left him tied to the bridge but he managed to get loose.

MrDarcy

dvpower wrote: »

The government can't just create jobs (unless you want them to directly hire more public servants:eek:). All they can do is try and create the policy conditions to try and help others create jobs and try and sell our advantages to potrential investors and customers.

Ireland has been successful in the past in bringing in FDI, but we relied on it too much. With this education idea we are currently punching below our weight. We have a lot of advantages; english speaking, a reputation for friendliness, our education system still has a good reputation abroad. This is a good idea that we should be supporting.
Now it may be the the government are doing the sales bit by going off to the states, but aren't doing the groundwork at home (like fast tracking visa for international students). I don't know, but FG are being childish in playing politics with this, an area where they have criticised the government in the past for not doing enough.

It's not the government's place to create jobs, it's their role to faciliate the creation of employment as distinct from creating jobs in themselves. As I already said, if there cannot be an actual number put on the number of jobs that this junket will faciliate, then it shouldn't even be given the headspace at the moment, there should be ZERO toleration now for this codding of wandering off with a delegation for a few days with some sort of wooly notion that it will maybe give us a return at some unknown time in the future. There are thousands of entrepreneurs in this country who cannot get access to seed capital from where it ought to be available. We have the ability to fix this properly by creating proper indigenious jobs here in Ireland, it's literally heartbreaking that we think that we are either not smart enough to do it or just not up for it or that this is what our government thinks.

dvpower

MrDarcy wrote: »

It's not the government's place to create jobs, it's their role to faciliate the creation of employment as distinct from creating jobs in themselves. As I already said, if there cannot be an actual number put on the number of jobs that this junket will faciliate, then it shouldn't even be given the headspace at the moment, there should be ZERO toleration now for this codding of wandering off with a delegation for a few days with some sort of wooly notion that it will maybe give us a return at some unknown time in the future. There are thousands of entrepreneurs in this country who cannot get access to seed capital from where it ought to be available. We have the ability to fix this properly by creating proper indigenious jobs here in Ireland, it's literally heartbreaking that we think that we are either not smart enough to do it or just not up for it or that this is what our government thinks.

Jobs in the international education sector are indigenious jobs here in Ireland.

Johnny Murphy FF

dvpower wrote: »

Jobs in the international education sector are indigenious jobs here in Ireland.

But if fine gael get their way, those education jobs will be offshored

Liam Byrne

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

But if fine gael get their way, those education jobs will be offshored

Great news for the Blaskeys and Aran Islands.......

......maybe even some on Inisvickillane!

ghostdancer

Poly wrote: »

"Come to Ireland and learn about Einstein’s theory of evolution."

We don't have enough college places for our own students, Wtf do we want yanks?
Let me make a guess, money, to keep our universtiy presidents in lavish lifestyles. Ireland's smart economy my arse

Sod our Irish students, sure they can do a FAS course.

Foreign students paying rake loads to universities means Irish students having to pay less, or face lower increases in fees.

even if it was going straight to university presidents, they get taxed the upper rate, which goes to the state, ie. americans would be giving their own money to the Irish state/taxpayer.

but don't let rational facts get in the way of your outrage....

hallelujajordan

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0928/1224279829295.html

I understand the intent of Enda Kenny's new Get-Tough strategy but its implementation has been appalling. . .

Last night they refused to allow the Taoiseach a 'pair' for the EU-Asia summit next week, only to do a u-turn once they saw the Irish Times front page on the TV . .

Perhaps they thought the other 40-odd heads of state could work around our Dail timetable.

bamboozle

MrDarcy wrote: »

A teacher running the country, in all seriousness could you envisage anything more dangerous???

The thing is, call me an absolutist, but if this government are THAT bad, (and they are!), and people are suffering SO much, (and they are it would seem to me anyway), then what kind of leader is Enda Kenny when he isn't calling people out onto the streets until this government is gone???

Like either we need a result here and we need rid of this government or else we don't??? What kind of a political coward is Kenny??? What is needed here is action, what is the man at fannying around with the withdrawal of a pairing arrangement, knowing that it will only inconvenience a government that has absolutely no intention of going anywhere until it is forced to do so???

i got a good laugh out of this comment, have you any idea of the backgrounds of the following members of the cabinet - Hanifan, Martin, Dempsey, O'Keefe, Carey, Kileen...that's right 6 out of 15 of our government's front bench are teachers by profession...God forbid Cowan had the smarts to appoint one of them minister for education...that task was bestowed on his good buddy Calamity Coughlan...whose professional background consisted of a few months working as a social worker prior to inheriting her fathers seat.

bamboozle

ghostdancer wrote: »

Foreign students paying rake loads to universities means Irish students having to pay less, or face lower increases in fees.

even if it was going straight to university presidents, they get taxed the upper rate, which goes to the state, ie. americans would be giving their own money to the Irish state/taxpayer.

but don't let rational facts get in the way of your outrage....

currently in irish universities supply < demand, should we shunt more Irish students at the expense of foreign fee paying students?

logic would dictate we would try to increase college numbers but i cant see that happening. Recession aside we're facing the mamoth task of schooling all the kids currently being born in the baby boom in the next 4 to 5 years, i dont see any govt planning towards this...although maybe there's a memo knocking about to hire more prefabs from FF benefactors to educate these kids in our 'smart' economy.

Wide Road

hallelujajordan wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0928/1224279829295.html

I understand the intent of Enda Kenny's new Get-Tough strategy but its implementation has been appalling. . .

Last night they refused to allow the Taoiseach a 'pair' for the EU-Asia summit next week, only to do a u-turn once they saw the Irish Times front page on the TV . .

Perhaps they thought the other 40-odd heads of state could work around our Dail timetable.

Good man Enda, you and your party have managed a u-turn before the Labour party steps in again. Well done.

kippy

I'm not sure what to think here to be honest. This is the first time this "pairing arrangement" has come to my attention. I can see the need for it but how many more of these type of agreements are in place between the parties?

I, like many others, believe this trip was a complete Junket with no real need for ministerial commitment, especially a minister of the caliber of this particular one. The money could have been spent far better elsewhere.........
FG will need this pairing arrangement again by the looks of it and this could be a bad precident for them.

The bottom line however, for me is this.
We have a government who are point blankly refusing to hold three by elections, one of which is years waiting for a position to be filled. This is completely undemocratic. FF calling FG undemocratic over the breaking of this pairing arrangement is farcical.

jmayo

StradBally wrote: »

Trade missions selling education abroad are extremely important - education is an enormous industry - if Ireland could take a few percent from the Uk's education export market, then perhaps a few of the financial problems facing Irish schools and colleges could be alleviated

checkout this link -

http://www.britishcouncil.org/global_value_-_the_value_of_uk_education_and_training_exports_-_an_update.pdf

dvpower wrote: »

Er. Trying to convince American students to come to college in Ireland?

As someone mentioned last night, why don't they allow Russian and Chinese students who want to come in here get VISAs easier if they are so f**king interested in attracting in foreign students ?

As for American students coming to Ireland has anyone heard the controversy about the American College ??? whose accrediation was removed and students affectively found the 4 year courses they were attending had been axed and some fees had actually been paid ?

Yes it is a private institution but if the state can't control private educational institutions within it's borders then that doesn't bode well.

If they want to attract foreign students how about making sure the colleges rankings are not allowed slip as they have done over the last few years.

ghostdancer wrote: »

Foreign students paying rake loads to universities means Irish students having to pay less, or face lower increases in fees.

even if it was going straight to university presidents, they get taxed the upper rate, which goes to the state, ie. americans would be giving their own money to the Irish state/taxpayer.

but don't let rational facts get in the way of your outrage....

Again why not let Chinese or Russian students come here or would we rather good old Irish Americans ?
Someone said earlier how it builds lasting relationships with these students and their nation, well isn't it about time we build some lasting relations with China and not a busted flush that is kept afloat by China ?

As for the pairing arrangement ff have taken the pi** and FG should have clamped down on this long ago.
FFS bertie has been paired when he goes off flogging his work of fiction or preaching his economic philsophy to some poor unsuspecting eejits in Central America, etc.
It is noticable some people who complained FG were pairing are now complaining when they stop.

Wide Road

kippy wrote: »

I'm not sure what to think here to be honest. This is the first time this "pairing arrangement" has come to my attention. I can see the need for it but how many more of these type of agreements are in place between the parties?

I, like many others, believe this trip was a complete Junket with no real need for ministerial commitment, especially a minister of the caliber of this particular one. The money could have been spent far better elsewhere.........
FG will need this pairing arrangement again by the looks of it and this could be a bad precident for them.


The Labour party doesn't agree with you.

kippy

Wide Road wrote: »

kippy wrote: »

I'm not sure what to think here to be honest. This is the first time this "pairing arrangement" has come to my attention. I can see the need for it but how many more of these type of agreements are in place between the parties?

I, like many others, believe this trip was a complete Junket with no real need for ministerial commitment, especially a minister of the caliber of this particular one. The money could have been spent far better elsewhere.........
FG will need this pairing arrangement again by the looks of it and this could be a bad precident for them.


The Labour party doesn't agree with you.

I'm not sure what to think of the Labour party in this particular instance either to be completely honest. Its obviously planned and executed in order to achieve some goal. Not sure what goal though to be honest.

We really give FF way too much leeway here. Labour and FG should be doing everything to get them outta power but as someone mentioned earlier the timing is all wrong. Neither party want a GE this time of year before a very very bad budget and are prepared to pamper FF for its last few months in power.

dicknorris

Wide Road wrote: »

Good man Enda, you and your party have managed a u-turn before the Labour party steps in again. Well done.

Please get ride of enda so we have some chance of a government, or we will have eamon "no policy's" gilmore running the country

Bersouth

aine-maire wrote: »

This myth has been going around for ages. It seems to be the default criticism of Labour at the moment and it's just not true.

This is a list of the 144 policy documents found on their website.

Feel free to criticise their policies, but at least acknowledge their existence.

Also, I dislike Enda Kenny. :mad:

This is a list of every of uterences from Labour since 1999 not one line on how to deal with Banking, job creation ........

oncevotedff

91011 wrote: »

....So FG are complaining about the jobs situation and then stop a minister going to meetings to try and get new investment?.

FG isn't stopping any Minister from going anywhere. Any Government Minister is quite free to go where he or she wishes. They just might not be in government when they come back and that's what's stopping them from leaving the country.

91011 wrote: »

....FG have to get this fool out now.

That issue has been resolved for the time being.

MrDarcy wrote: »

A teacher running the country, in all seriousness could you envisage anything more dangerous?????

A solicitor with a potential drink problem????

dvpower

bamboozle wrote: »

currently in irish universities supply < demand, should we shunt more Irish students at the expense of foreign fee paying students?

logic would dictate we would try to increase college numbers but i cant see that happening. Recession aside we're facing the mamoth task of schooling all the kids currently being born in the baby boom in the next 4 to 5 years, i dont see any govt planning towards this...although maybe there's a memo knocking about to hire more prefabs from FF benefactors to educate these kids in our 'smart' economy.

Of course we would increase college places. Non EU students pay full collage fees. The problem with increasing college numbers for Irish people is that the state heavily subsidise them.
You hardly need the government to be involved at all if the payment for places is coming directly from individual students.

dvpower

jmayo wrote: »

As someone mentioned last night, why don't they allow Russian and Chinese students who want to come in here get VISAs easier if they are so f**king interested in attracting in foreign students ?

Attracting American students doesn't preclude Russian and Chinese students, but they do definitely need some fast tracking of visa applications in order for this to work.
FG have pointed out that we are loosing this business to the UK because they can grant visa to Chinese students in a couple of days, where we take months.

Floppybits

have to say that I am disappointed with Labours decision in this and have put a nagging doubt in my head as to whether they will do a deal with FF after the next election.

FG caused this themselves by giving pairings out for everything. FF politicians need to be made come to the dail and answer questions. They have made a mockery of the Dail, with Bertie saying he doesn't like to come in and Coughlan and Cowen the same. Its a disgrace. Hopefully now it is the end of pairings as a given and will be only be dealt with on a case by case basis. FF cant complain about this, didn't their illustrious leader MR CJ Haughey make Dick Spring come into the Dail on a stretcher after a serious car crash and made another sick TD come in in a wheelchair all because he wouldn't give pairings.

On the subject of FG and Enda, I think FG have a good team but their biggest weakness is there leader. I cant understand why they are sticking with him considering his performances in the polls.

MrDarcy

As much as I support the ongoing but inadaquate efforts to remove this government, FG are to my mind now acting not unlike the striking/work to rule folks down in the Passport Office a few months ago.

I've a pain in my hoop saying this, but what is the actual purpose to the withdrawal of "pairing arrangements"??? It would seem that it is to increase pressure on the government with a view to enforcing the actual parlimentary numbers which are now very thin.

Is this not another dismal display at the kind of hopeless fannying around with a problem that we are now worn out with???

Remember the workers down in the Passport Office, making up the rules as to what applications they will deem urgent and what applications they will deem to fall under the damage caused by their protest???

Sound familar at all???

From today's Irish Times...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0928/1224279829295.html

"Reflecting the party’s tougher approach to parliamentary cooperation, a Fine Gael spokesman had said pairs would only be granted for meetings of the EU Council of Ministers, North-South ministerial meetings and, on a case-by-case basis, where deputies were suffering from illness.

When it was put to him that the Taoiseach would be attending the Asia-Europe summit and would need to request a pair, the spokesman had said it was “not a Council of Ministers meeting” and a pair would therefore not be granted."

I felt at the time of the Passport Office debacle, that if people felt that disenfranchised about how they were treated, then don't be pathethically doing half a job while "technically" staying in your job on full pay, GO ON STRIKE and have the courage of your conviction!!!

I say the very same here to FG, what on earth do you think is to be achieved by acting like a beligerant gimp and telling people where and when they can travel???

If there is such a problem with the government that merits a general election, and surely this is the end objective to the selective withdrawal of "pairing arrangements", then have the courage of your convictions and come out onto the national airwaves and call people out to protest peacefully but equally determined until we get an election.

This pri*king around with stupid political and childish withdrawals of arrangements that will achieve nothing really other than a bit of inconvience, it's a hardly disguised HALF MEASURE...

Personally I'm so f*cking sick of the endless half measures and half arsed approach to everything in this country and this is just another example of it, "let's pr*ck around with the pairing arrangements and really wreck their heads", it's prepubsecent infantile behaviour that will achieve nothing.

The lack of political courage in this place is scary, there is nothing that FF could do I reckon that would cause the opposition to ask people to stand up to them in the streets, and this is not an incitement to a riot, determined, peaceful and ONGOING/continuing protest is what is required to dislodge this government... These token "cute hoor" gestures towards change just enrage me at this stage.

oncevotedff

MrDarcy wrote: »

I've a pain in my hoop saying this, but what is the actual purpose to the withdrawal of "pairing arrangements"??? .

Obviously in the hope of creating a situation where the government loses a vote in the Dáil.

andrewdcs

Few random scatter gun musings on FGs recent badly executed though generally correct plans to tip FF out, which would be patriotic in the extreme if cack handed:

In this day and age having to be present to shout out a vote in the dail chamber is deeply anachronistic. I know its how its done in all the big boy old school governments but c'mon. It's 2010! set up a bleeding facebook poll and only invite TDs to vote (half-joking!)

However; having to be present in the Dail to answer questions and engage in debate in such tumultous times for the state is way more important. Being there in person to take the beating, have it played on the 6 1 news, have performances rated on boards. Coughlans jolly with EI is a farce designed to keep her off the floor when the Anglo/FAS/every other bit of summer poo really hits a massive whirling tornado.

FG are right to start pulling out all stops for a GE, shame they couldn't all get on message before the announcement and have all the sticking points smoothed out. FF made us a laughing stock internationally after a long long slog back up the hill of international respect. The formal opposition are in real danger of stepping on their own incompetent feet.

FG have a far deeper bench than Labour but zero credible leadership from Enda. I really like the guy he's what we need, intelligent, assured, personable, honest. ergo: can't possibly succeed leading a party in Ireland.

There isn't going to be much union hugging from Labours new TDs as the next government will be a shadow government. Civil service pensions are going to be raided and we're going to end up privatising everything we can at knock down prices.

oppenheimer1

MrDarcy wrote: »

She is an idiot who should not be allowed to travel to talk to anyone.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0927/breaking15.html

Yet again the fundamental approach is all over the place and completely wrong.

Ms Coughlan said this morning the trip was intended to promote Ireland as a study destination for the Irish-American community and deliver “economic messages” to potential investors.

“We’re in a position to support and attract the calibre of graduates we wish to have in this country,” Ms Coughlan said. “There is a missed opportunity which is desperately unfortunate.


We already have enough graduates in this country, we don't need anymore shipped in, how about we stop trapsing all over the world on high cost junkets and use that money to support the "high calibre", graduates that are getting on planes out of the country every hour of every day down in Dublin Airport?!?!?!?!?


As for the delivery of "economic messages", to potential investors, don't waste your time, the more words uttered by members of this government, the higher the cost of borrowing becomes. If you want to send an "economic message", then write a piece for the Financial Times or put up on your blog or something, don't expect the rest of us here to pay out only Jasus know's what to ferry you over to the US so that you can stand up on a podium and sh*te on about something that you don't even understand.


In all seriousness where is the concept of value for money here and someone making fundamentally smart decisions?!?!? Why import "high calibre" graduates on one plane and then watch another plane on the same runway taking "high quality" graduates out of the country??? How much would it be to fly her over there??? You could pencil in 100K between her entourage, expenses, limo's to ferry her all over the place, accommodation and subsistance, etc. Does anyone have any idea how valuable that kind of money would be to new start up businesses at the moment??? You could probably set up ten small viable start up companies with that kind of money.


I wouldn't mind if she was at all useful but she is as inept as they come, every word that comes out of her mouth is utterly unconvincing, she should not have been allowed next nor near an economic brief, she's a social worker for Christ's sake, what in all seriousness would she know about creating job opportunities, she hasn't created a job in her life!

Its posts like these that make me despair sometimes. Do you know how much per year an american student pays to study here? For a typical course in a university its close to €20,000 per year. Attracting these high value and paying students helps subsidise the cost of third level for Irish students. In addition they bring money into the country so are an invisible export. A typical overseas undergraduate is worth close to €130,000 each over four years to the Irish economy.

oppenheimer1

bmaxi wrote: »

Who believes that Coughlan could possibly be an asset to the "mission". She's so interested in bringing jobs to the country that she will travel to Boston, yet she couldn't get off her ar*e to open the door to Michael O'Leary.
She's a liability and an embarrassment, I wouldn't put it past her doing a Cowen.
She should be here to answer questions on Fás and Ruari Quinn would serve the people better by putting the heat on her, rather than let her and her slimy friends in Fás have an easy ride.

Those Ryanair jobs were never ever coming to Ireland. Ever. The hangar fuss was retaliation that Ryanair didn't get its way over terminal 2. Legally it was impossible and all reasonable attempts to facilitate them were made. Didn't they offer to build them a new hangar, like whats being done in Prestwick for them.

You people are easily taken in by O'Learys spin and guff.

dvpower

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its posts like these that make me despair sometimes. Do you know how much per year an american student pays to study here? For a typical course in a university its close to €20,000 per year. Attracting these high value and paying students helps subsidise the cost of third level for Irish students. In addition they bring money into the country so are an invisible export. A typical overseas undergraduate is worth close to €130,000 each over four years to the Irish economy.

Indeed, FG estimate that for every 100 students, 15 jobs are created here.
http://www.finegael.ie/polcol/a/30/article

MrDarcy

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its posts like these that make me despair sometimes. Do you know how much per year an american student pays to study here? For a typical course in a university its close to €20,000 per year. Attracting these high value and paying students helps subsidise the cost of third level for Irish students. In addition they bring money into the country so are an invisible export. A typical overseas undergraduate is worth close to €130,000 each over four years to the Irish economy.

This mentality is why we have serious economic problems in this country. There is no long term viable benefit in importing fee paying students exclusively for the purposes of subsidising the Irish third level sector. There is no certainty whatsoever that a whole contingent of Irish politicians and beaurocrats travelling on a junket to the US will result in a single student coming here to study, none whatsoever.

If our third level institutions are not paying for themselves, then the answer is to get them better involved in R & D for the private sector, introduce a fair system for fee's, CUT costs as in cut down on the incredible salaries that lecturers are on, and getting our house in order on that front.

Ignoring all of that, and instead throwing money at a junket in the HOPE that MAYBE some students might come here to study, is just failing to deal with the problems that are clearly bedded in within the third level educational sector.

As I've already said, the lack of an actual objective here, in terms of numbers of jobs to be created is the worrying thing, it's all vague, wooly and ambigious.

dvpower

andrewdcs wrote: »

Few random scatter gun musings on FGs recent badly executed though generally correct plans to tip FF out, which would be patriotic in the extreme if cack handed:

In this day and age having to be present to shout out a vote in the dail chamber is deeply anachronistic. I know its how its done in all the big boy old school governments but c'mon. It's 2010! set up a bleeding facebook poll and only invite TDs to vote (half-joking!)

However; having to be present in the Dail to answer questions and engage in debate in such tumultous times for the state is way more important.

Gotcha. Being present in the Dail to vote is old fashioned and unnecessary. Being present in the Dail to answer questions in vital.

oppenheimer1

MrDarcy wrote: »

This mentality is why we have serious economic problems in this country. There is no long term viable benefit in importing fee paying students exclusively for the purposes of subsidising the Irish third level sector. There is no certainty whatsoever that a whole contingent of Irish politicians and beaurocrats travelling on a junket to the US will result in a single student coming here to study, none whatsoever.

If our third level institutions are not paying for themselves, then the answer is to get them better involved in R & D for the private sector, introduce a fair system for fee's, CUT costs as in cut down on the incredible salaries that lecturers are on, and getting our house in order on that front.

Ignoring all of that, and instead throwing money at a junket in the HOPE that MAYBE some students might come here to study, is just failing to deal with the problems that are clearly bedded in within the third level educational sector.

As I've already said, the lack of an actual objective here, in terms of numbers of jobs to be created is the worrying thing, it's all vague, wooly and ambigious.

Ah I get it now, I'm arguing with someone who simply doesn't understand how third level works.

You want to cut lecturers wages so the best will leave, yet expect the universities to increase the amount of revenue raised through R&D. A1 for you for a great idea :rolleyes:

MrDarcy

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Ah I get it now, I'm arguing with someone who simply doesn't understand how third level works.

You want to cut lecturers wages so the best will leave, yet expect the universities to increase the amount of revenue raised through R&D. A1 for you for a great idea :rolleyes:

More boogeyman tactics of what will happen if we continue to allow ourselves to remain uncompetitive. The facts of this thread are very simple, this government are throwing money at something without any certainty whatsoever that there will be a return on the outlay. I'm an entrepreneur, I create jobs and that kind of an approch to problem solving to my mind is the opposite of sound financial planning and going about getting a return on an investment/outlay.

And as for your uneducated opinion as to what I know about how third level works, I worked on a R & D project for an English University, it involved designing, developing and DELIVERING several pieces of test equipment to a local medium sized business. The business paid £550,000 for the equipment to be designed and developed which allowed them to test a certain type of car component which the business was engaged in remanufacturing, prior to dispatching the item to the market.

The solution was win-win, the university got good money for delivering a working, useful and much needed solution to a local manufacturing business, the business got what they needed to improve quality standards and to keep non-performing items in house instead of dispatching these items out to the market where they then caused quality issues.

Do you have any idea of the mind zapping politics that would be behind such an attempt to get that done in an Irish university?!??!?!?

And yes Irish third level workers are grossly overpaid, along with others working in the public sector. If lecturers want to p*ss off to the UK where they will get less, we should buy them a Ryanair ticket, one less salary we'd have to pay here...

imme

bette wrote: »

Pairing is a nonsense and should be done away with along with the whip system.

'Pairing' is just another one of theose things that developed over time.

Some might see it as a political nicety. Others might see it as them all being the same. What do Dail votes mean anything if they're decided in advance between 'pairing' and people being whipped.

It's time we have political reform.

dvpower

imme wrote: »

'Pairing' is just another one of theose things that developed over time.

Some might see it as a political nicety. Others might see it as them all being the same. What do Dail votes mean anything if they're decided in advance between 'pairing' and people being whipped.

It's time we have political reform.

Reform pairing and the whip system and replace it with what?
Important legislation not being passed because a Minister is away at an EU meeting. TDs not voting for measures that were agreed in a programme for government. I can only see downsides, but I await with interest you proposals for reform.

amacachi

So wait, am I right in thinking that all this time there have been opposition TDs casting votes to support government motions?

Sand

There have been oppositition TDs agreeing to abstain so as to support the passage of government motions.

Why does Coughlan need to go? If the Dail votes are important, let her stay and vote. Surely theres someone vaguely competent in her department who can do the job?

And honestly - FG are doing the country a favour by preventing her going abroad to embarrass us. Labours move to help out Fianna Fail only cements the real and growing possibility that Labour will find coalition with Fianna Fail more attractive than being in power with Fine Gael.

Callan57

Pairing .... sounds like another one of those little gentlemanly arrangements the 'boys' come up with down at the club

hallelujajordan

Am not sure why people get excited about the pairing principle. It really is just a sensible and pragmatic way of allowing the routine work of both parliament and government to happen in parallel. This new 'tough' stance by FG is nothing more than a publicity stunt (which has now backfired). It will make life more awkward for the government but they are not going to lose any votes as a result and it is certainly not going to do anything to bring an end to the government. If anything FF will bounce back slightly on the back of the public moving even further away from Enda Kenny.

Liam Byrne

Sand wrote: »

Labours move to help out Fianna Fail only cements the real and growing possibility that Labour will find coalition with Fianna Fail more attractive than being in power with Fine Gael.

Does anyone really believe this is a possibility ? I can understand FG touting that line to put people off voting for Labour, but I'd be sickened if I though Gilmore & Co actually lacked that much ethics.

nuac

Fiú dá mbéadh ach pocaide gabhair agat, beidh í lár an aonaigh leis.

Even if you only have a billy goat ( for sale ) be in the centre of the fair with it.

Old Irish proverb.

The world is a market place for the goods and service we hope to supply. No opportunity should be lost to promote what we offer. That is our only hope of creating jobs. Without such Foreign Direct Investment in many forms, we will not succeed in paying out week. We cannot keep borrowing €20 billion a year to run the country.


The speaker from Enterprise Ireland set it out very clearly on radio earlier this week. Sending a Minister helps, so FG should have allowed that.