Waterford Election 2011

BlaasForRafa · 12-02-2011 3:39pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh, I totally agree with waste in the public sector, you're preaching to the preached dude - But let's be honest, 30,000 jobs will affect frontline services. Let's be honest about it. Also - It might be worth noting the student nursing work experience module. This is going to be a huge issue for the nurses, and unless their pay is restored - I think it's going to reduce the number of nurses training, and will actually cause many to quit their course. This will directly impact frontline services. Fine Gael have already gone on record stating that they cannot gaurentee a reversal in this pay cut.

RE: University status, thanks - But I doubt you'll get a concrete outline of how it will be funded. If you can provide one, I'd be very impressed.

At least FG have more chance of bring a Uni to the south east than Gerry Adams and his buddies.

As for student nurses, with the clampdown on recruitment in the public sector most nurses will be heading off to the UK/Canada/Middle East, why should we pay for nurses education just to see them head abroad anyway.

dlofnep · 12-02-2011 3:49pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

At least FG have more chance of bring a Uni to the south east than Gerry Adams and his buddies.

That didn't answer my question. You're deflecting from the issue as usual. If Fine Gael are making promises of a university, given the reality that they will be part of the next government - it is perfectly valid to question how they are going to fund it, given the current cutbacks and pending losses in the public sector. if Fine Gael cannot answer this question, then it's an empty promise. Sinn Féin can state that they support a University for the south, and offer a promise to work hard, and petition the Government to re-look at the matter - But that is greatly different than Fine Gael's promise of a university for the south.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

As for student nurses, with the clampdown on recruitment in the public sector most nurses will be heading off to the UK/Canada/Middle East, why should we pay for nurses education just to see them head abroad anyway.

We're not paying for their education - We're paying for them to work within the public sector. If we do not pay them - it means less student nurses working within the public sector, which will directly affect public hospitals.

I'm glad you're content with student nurses slaving away all day, without a dime to show for it.

AdMMM · 12-02-2011 3:59pm

We're not paying for their education

We are.

dlofnep · 12-02-2011 4:03pm

AdMMM wrote: »

We are.

I am referring specifically to their time spent on work experience. They provide a vital service to the public sector. As far as I'm concerned, at this stage - we are paying for their labour. It is work "experience", but that experience is hand in hand a part of the frontline of the health service. Without those student nurses, you'd see every hospital in this state under extreme pressure. let's have an honest and candid debate about this.

deise blue · 12-02-2011 4:28pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh, I totally agree with waste in the public sector, you're preaching to the preached dude - But let's be honest, 30,000 jobs will affect frontline services. Let's be honest about it. Also - It might be worth noting the student nursing work experience module. This is going to be a huge issue for the nurses, and unless their pay is restored - I think it's going to reduce the number of nurses training, and will actually cause many to quit their course. This will directly impact frontline services. Fine Gael have already gone on record stating that they cannot gaurentee a reversal in this pay cut.

RE: University status, thanks - But I doubt you'll get a concrete outline of how it will be funded. If you can provide one, I'd be very impressed.

Of course you are right - front line services will be hit.

The 30,000 redundancies will be voluntary and unlike compulsory redundancies you cannot target the areas where you want the redundancies to be made.

In terms of voluntary redundancies teachers , nurses , firemen can apply & if they fulfill the criteria have as much chance as back room staff of being deemed eligible.

If less than 30,000 apply for voluntary redundancy than all eligible front line staff can avail of the voluntary redundancy offer.

The NUI in Maynooth estimate that an average school would lose 2 teachers & 1 in 6 nurses will go if such a huge scheme is introduced.

Sully · 12-02-2011 5:07pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh, I totally agree with waste in the public sector, you're preaching to the preached dude - But let's be honest, 30,000 jobs will affect frontline services. Let's be honest about it. Also - It might be worth noting the student nursing work experience module. This is going to be a huge issue for the nurses, and unless their pay is restored - I think it's going to reduce the number of nurses training, and will actually cause many to quit their course. This will directly impact frontline services. Fine Gael have already gone on record stating that they cannot gaurentee a reversal in this pay cut.

RE: University status, thanks - But I doubt you'll get a concrete outline of how it will be funded. If you can provide one, I'd be very impressed.

With respect, Fine Gael have always and have repeatedly stated frontline services will not be hit. Constantly. There is enough waste higher up in the public service to cut.

dlofnep wrote: »

Also - What is your take on the proposed mortgage relief fund Sully - Do you think it's fair to offer relief to those because of the time-frame at which they purchased their property, or do you not think it would be more fair to offer relief based on how much financial strain a family has?

Economics and me don't mix well, so I wouldn't feel comfortable commenting on it. I'm shocking when it comes to Maths, so I would prefer to stay out of economy related talk.

I don't know enough about it either.

Deise Tom wrote: »

Thats something that i would also love to know. While we all know that Fianna Fail have their problems some people are very blind to what the opposition are saying. Some are sucked in by what they say right, left and centre. Its easy to say what they say in opposition but when they come into power they will realise that things are much different. Enda and Eamon will promise people Sun, Moon and Stars in oposition and especially in the run up to an election, but people never ask how they will fund these promises.

With respect, your party has been for decades promising the sun moon and stars. It was your party, and even with Michael Martin at the cabinet table, that ****ed this country over and lied to us continually. You may have got rid of Cowen but not everybody believes that a new face for leader has changed what Fianna Fail has done to this country. All the lies etc.

Fianna Fail have damaged politics and the peoples faith in the political system in Ireland. Its time they did a complete reform instead of just playing musical chairs.

Not every political party or person is making stuff up.

Deise Tom wrote: »

If they do give one, and i doubt they will, i feel that it will be a south east university and not a Waterford one. If a South East one was given people like Phil Hogan who will be at the cabinet table will be looking for it in his constituency. If Labour are with FG in Power, Brendan Howlin who could be a minister or at least a junior one will also be looking for it to he in his area. Both i am sure would be see as having a much more say than what John Deady or Paudie Coffey will have.

I think Phil Hogan has stated several times his support for the cause and rejected this notion that he is anti-waterford and will be pushing for a different spin for the grouping of colleges. At the end of the day, each will be a University campus and each will have a University degree.

I want Waterford to be the head campus as do our local Fine Gael candidates. It makes perfect sense as the capital of the region and being the largest of the ITs in the area.

BlaasForRafa · 12-02-2011 5:11pm

That didn't answer my question. You're deflecting from the issue as usual. If Fine Gael are making promises of a university, given the reality that they will be part of the next government - it is perfectly valid to question how they are going to fund it, given the current cutbacks and pending losses in the public sector. if Fine Gael cannot answer this question, then it's an empty promise. Sinn Féin can state that they support a University for the south, and offer a promise to work hard, and petition the Government to re-look at the matter - But that is greatly different than Fine Gael's promise of a university for the south.

We can see whether or no FG will do anything about a university, I have limited confidence in any political party. However at least FG have a realistic chance, Sinn Fein are only good as a protest party, they're a typical "whatever it is we're agin it" party.

We're not paying for their education - We're paying for them to work within the public sector. If we do not pay them - it means less student nurses working within the public sector, which will directly affect public hospitals.

Yes, we ARE paying for their education. They can take that education and get a job anywhere in the world without contributing anything to the state (and by extension the taxpayers) that funded their education.

I'm glad you're content with student nurses slaving away all day, without a dime to show for it.

If I'm paying taxes for their education then they can pay the state back by doing some work. In many professions students will have to do unpaid work experience, I don't see why nursing should be any different.

dlofnep · 12-02-2011 5:20pm

Sully wrote: »

With respect, Fine Gael have always and have repeatedly stated frontline services will not be hit. Constantly. There is enough waste higher up in the public service to cut.

I know they have said it - but 30,000 jobs is far too many for it to not affect frontline services. Bearing in mind, this is on top of the fact Fine Gael will not promise to reverse pay cuts to student nurses. I think we need to be really honest about this - frontline services will be affected.

Labour are promising the same, with only upper-echelon being affected - but they are promising only 7,000 redundancies. That leaves a huge gap between the two of you.

Sully wrote: »

Economics and me don't mix well, so I wouldn't feel comfortable commenting on it. I'm shocking when it comes to Maths, so I would prefer to stay out of economy related talk.

I don't know enough about it either.

I wouldn't undercut yourself that much. You're an intelligent chap. The jist of it is, Fine Gael want to offer mortage interest relief to those in negative equity , but only to those who purchased property between 2004-2009. It doesn't address the reality that there will be many people who are in negative equity, but can afford to pay their bills - while many outside of the timeframe will still be struggling with mortage repayments because of job losses, or pay cuts.

Perhaps you might ask Paudie or John next time you chat to them for a comment on it. I'd be interested to hear what their views are.

dlofnep · 12-02-2011 5:28pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

We can see whether or no FG will do anything about a university, I have limited confidence in any political party. However at least FG have a realistic chance, Sinn Fein are only good as a protest party, they're a typical "whatever it is we're agin it" party.

That is an uninformed, subjective view. Sinn Féin's policies are defined based on what the members aspire to see, based on delegates votes at each year's Ard Fheis. So if Sinn Féin wishes to see bondholders burnt, I assure you - it isn't because Fine Gael wishes to see the opposite. It's because Sinn Féin feels that it's right and just. Have a bit of intellectual rigor.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yes, we ARE paying for their education. They can take that education and get a job anywhere in the world without contributing anything to the state (and by extension the taxpayers) that funded their education.

Anyone in any industry can do this - are are educated in Irish institutions. I could go to American tomorrow and work in IT, but I choose to stay in Ireland and work. But many have emmigrated out of the country in search of employment in my field.

Therefore, it must be your view that your are solely against state-supported third-level education. If that is the case, make it clear and say that.

And when they are working as part of frontline services, we are paying for their labour. Bearing in mind that the majority of these nurses will have to go from a full day of work in a hospital, to a full night of work in a second job to try and pay their way through college. You may see this as fair an just - The student nurses obviously feel different.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If I'm paying taxes for their education then they can pay the state back by doing some work. In many professions students will have to do unpaid work experience, I don't see why nursing should be any different.

I was paid for my work experience in IT - Everyone in my class was paid also. I luckily gained employment in the same place I worked, but if I had to work a full-time position in the day, and then have to come into work in the night again - it would have physically exhausted me. And that was in the private sector - In the public sector, the student nurses are a vital part of frontline services, of which you and I avail of when we attend hospitals. That is our repayment. See them go, and watch how long queues become and how long you'll have to wait for treatment. As someone who has suffered with long-term illness, I can assure you that this isn't a position I'd envy.

Sully · 12-02-2011 5:40pm

Re: Student Nurses being paid.

Not every student who goes out on work experience gets paid. Those who work in schools for example, don't get paid. Paid work experience isn't guaranteed, some are some are not, so why should we be paying for certain jobs and not others? Should we be paying for something that is part of their course until they go into the job mainstream?

dlofnep · 12-02-2011 5:49pm

Sully wrote: »

Re: Student Nurses being paid.

Not every student who goes out on work experience gets paid. Those who work in schools for example, don't get paid. Paid work experience isn't guaranteed, some are some are not, so why should we be paying for certain jobs and not others? Should we be paying for something that is part of their course until they go into the job mainstream?

As I've explained - they provide a vital part of the frontline of our health service. What happens in the private sector we have no control over, and we have no direct return from it - as it will not constitute part of frontline public services.

Have you spoken to nursing students to ask them for their views on it? I think open dialog between your party and these students is crucially important for them. I'm not a nursing student, so I have nothing to gain by offering them moral support on the internet - But I do have empathy for their position, and I do see it impacting on our health service. I routinely visit the hospital on account of a long-term illness, and the waits are already long enough as it is - this will only prolong visits, and force a rushed-atmosphere in hospitals, where patients won't be given the time that they deserve.

Sully · 12-02-2011 6:07pm

dlofnep wrote: »

As I've explained - they provide a vital part of the frontline of our health service. What happens in the private sector we have no control over, and we have no direct return from it - as it will not constitute part of frontline public services.

Teachers don't I assume?

Have you spoken to nursing students to ask them for their views on it? I think open dialog between your party and these students is crucially important for them. I'm not a nursing student, so I have nothing to gain by offering them moral support on the internet - But I do have empathy for their position, and I do see it impacting on our health service. I routinely visit the hospital on account of a long-term illness, and the waits are already long enough as it is - this will only prolong visits, and force a rushed-atmosphere in hospitals, where patients won't be given the time that they deserve.

Don't know any personally and I cant speak for Fine Gael, not sure if they spoke with them but I am sure their respective unions were in touch.

I sincerely doubt the level of care or service offered by students will change if they don't get paid either.

Sully · 12-02-2011 6:08pm

Latest poll btw::

Sunday Business Post/Red C poll: FG: 38% (+3), Labour: 20% (-2), FF: 15% (-2), SF: 10% (-3), Greens: 3% (+1), Independents: 14% (+3).

dlofnep · 12-02-2011 6:22pm

Sully wrote: »

Teachers don't I assume?

I don't know if they do, nor do I know the amount of hours worked by them in comparison to student nurses. Perhaps you can clarify.

Sully wrote: »

I sincerely doubt the level of care or service offered by students will change if they don't get paid either.

Well - they are going to be working far longer hours, given that they will require a second job. If you don't think this will affect their ability to offering quality care, I'd say you're stretching a little. I know that if I had to work a day job, and a night job - both would be affected.

But it will also affect the amount of people intending on studying nursing - which means less student nurses within the health service. This will certainly affect frontline services.

deise blue · 12-02-2011 7:18pm

deise blue wrote: »

Of course you are right - front line services will be hit.

The 30,000 redundancies will be voluntary and unlike compulsory redundancies you cannot target the areas where you want the redundancies to be made.

In terms of voluntary redundancies teachers , nurses , firemen can apply & if they fulfill the criteria have as much chance as back room staff of being deemed eligible.

If less than 30,000 apply for voluntary redundancy than all eligible front line staff can avail of the voluntary redundancy offer.

The NUI in Maynooth estimate that an average school would lose 2 teachers & 1 in 6 nurses will go if such a huge scheme is introduced.

Sully ,

You continue to maintain that FG state that the voluntary scheme they favour will not hit frontline services.

I detailed in my post above the reasons why I feel this particular scheme must adversely impact frontline services .

Can you refute my arguments ?

Trotter · 12-02-2011 7:56pm

AdMMM wrote: »

We are.

Ah but if we don't pay as a society for nurses then we have no entitlement for another human being to nurse us back to health if we're sick.

I'd rather pay taxes for health care (including a damn good wage for nurses) than not pay them and realise if Im I'll that theres nobody there to help me.

Reading the last few pages of this thread, I think its a little too easy to forget that front line services like nurses or firefighters are there to get us out of trouble when we need them. Its easy to forget that if we haven't needed them before, and maybe the longer we never need their assistance, the easier it is to forget the importance of their position.

If a trainee nurse is doing the same job in that final year of college as a trained nurse , I would agree with them having a proper wage, in my estimate 80% of a trained nurses wage, simply because they are doing the same tasks.

Every time we chip money from a nurses / firefighters / garda's salary, someone in an office on €500,000 a year has a little grin. We're truly barking up the wrong tree.

dlofnep · 12-02-2011 8:02pm

hear hear trotter!

Trotter · 12-02-2011 8:07pm

dlofnep wrote: »

hear hear trotter!

Jayysis if you agree with me I must be travelling lefty in me old age

I still think that 500k lad should be on 200k if he's worth it though!!, and I wouldnt touch that corporation tax rate in a fit.

AHhhhhh... and Im back to slightly left of centre again

Smiley Burnett · 12-02-2011 10:39pm

deise blue wrote: »

Of course you are right - front line services will be hit.

The 30,000 redundancies will be voluntary and unlike compulsory redundancies you cannot target the areas where you want the redundancies to be made.

In terms of voluntary redundancies teachers , nurses , firemen can apply & if they fulfill the criteria have as much chance as back room staff of being deemed eligible.

If less than 30,000 apply for voluntary redundancy than all eligible front line staff can avail of the voluntary redundancy offer.

The NUI in Maynooth estimate that an average school would lose 2 teachers & 1 in 6 nurses will go if such a huge scheme is introduced.

Youre making a lot of assumptions about ay redundancy offer that may be made???

its very simple really---The Govt only offers redundancy in areas where they feels cuts are necessary, due to waste and inefficiencies!!

In other words, THOSE ON THE FRONTLINE (NURSES, TEACHERS, GARDAI, COUNCIL WORKERS) are not offered redundancy!!

If the Trade Unions are serious about protecting frontline services, then they will agree to this approach!!

AdMMM · 13-02-2011 12:25am

Sully wrote: »

Re: Student Nurses being paid.

Not every student who goes out on work experience gets paid. Those who work in schools for example, don't get paid. Paid work experience isn't guaranteed, some are some are not, so why should we be paying for certain jobs and not others? Should we be paying for something that is part of their course until they go into the job mainstream?

Students who go to schools to teach for work placement don't end up working night shifts and extensive shifts without a break!

It's rare that I rally behind a union protest but I'm full agreement with the students struggle and of the action taken by the INMO and am mystified that the Government took such action without consulting the stakeholders involved.

deise blue · 13-02-2011 1:22am

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

Youre making a lot of assumptions about ay redundancy offer that may be made???

its very simple really---The Govt only offers redundancy in areas where they feels cuts are necessary, due to waste and inefficiencies!!

In other words, THOSE ON THE FRONTLINE (NURSES, TEACHERS, GARDAI, COUNCIL WORKERS) are not offered redundancy!!

If the Trade Unions are serious about protecting frontline services, then they will agree to this approach!!

Let's look at the voluntary redundancy package aimed at taking 5,000 out of the administrative areas of the HSE - what was the final take up figure - less than 2,000.

Let us not forget that the HSE is by far the largest area in the Public Sector.

If FG want to achieve voluntary redundancies then the are most certainly going to have to broaden the offer across the entirety of the PS - frontline and all , after all frontline workers should surely be given the opportunity to avail of this scheme as well ?

As I say between this scheme and natural wastage ( what a terrible expression ) NUI Maynooth say that an average school will lose 2 teachers and 1 in 6 nurses will leave.

Sully · 13-02-2011 2:41am

deise blue wrote: »

Sully ,

You continue to maintain that FG state that the voluntary scheme they favour will not hit frontline services.

I detailed in my post above the reasons why I feel this particular scheme must adversely impact frontline services .

Can you refute my arguments ?

If not enough "back room" staff take up the offer, and the government insists that those who go must only be back room staff, you either offer them a better package or force them out.

It would be a bizarre situation for a government to insist front line wouldn't be effected, then say "Sorry boys, you have to go because the lads in the back room wont".

Trotter wrote: »

Ah but if we don't pay as a society for nurses then we have no entitlement for another human being to nurse us back to health if we're sick.

I'd rather pay taxes for health care (including a damn good wage for nurses) than not pay them and realise if Im I'll that theres nobody there to help me.

Reading the last few pages of this thread, I think its a little too easy to forget that front line services like nurses or firefighters are there to get us out of trouble when we need them. Its easy to forget that if we haven't needed them before, and maybe the longer we never need their assistance, the easier it is to forget the importance of their position.

If a trainee nurse is doing the same job in that final year of college as a trained nurse , I would agree with them having a proper wage, in my estimate 80% of a trained nurses wage, simply because they are doing the same tasks.

Every time we chip money from a nurses / firefighters / garda's salary, someone in an office on €500,000 a year has a little grin. We're truly barking up the wrong tree.

But if we don't pay for teachers as a society, our kids won't get to grow up with knowledge and get a chance of decent education. Swings and roundabouts!

I agree they should be paid, but I think other people in the PS who also do a damn good job should also be paid, for example - student teachers. But they carry on and educate our kids and help the school out as best they can. They wont sit back and do **** all because they are not getting paid.

Case by case basis maybe, and Adam makes a great point below.

AdMMM wrote: »

Students who go to schools to teach for work placement don't end up working night shifts and extensive shifts without a break!

It's rare that I rally behind a union protest but I'm full agreement with the students struggle and of the action taken by the INMO and am mystified that the Government took such action without consulting the stakeholders involved.

On this note, I recall a friend of mine quit the course (loved nursing originally) because she found working in a hospital and the hours etc an absolute bitch. Should this be reformed and make it fairer for all?

One might argue that the tough work, the senior people who make it tough on you is all part of the work to make sure you are dedicated and will be a good nurse.

deise blue · 13-02-2011 8:15am

So the solution is to offer back room staff a better package or force them out?

FG have stated that they will honour the Croke Park Agreement & as such the option of " forcing them out " cannot apply as compulsory redundancies are banned.

As you say the other option is to offer a better package which of course is the last thing any incoming Government wants to contemplate as did'nt FG cost the original scheme at 1 billion ?

Surely the Unions are going to make the point that frontline staff should not be excluded from any scheme as I'm sure more than a few would wish to leave ?

I do of course appreciate that there all also be an element of natural wastage that will form part of FG's 30,000 figure and such employees will not be replaced unless FG lift the PS recruitment embargo - it is undeniable therefore that frontline services will be hit .

If the last such scheme sought 5,000 voluntary redundancies in the HSE & only achieved 2,000 I believe that FG are going to have a hell of a job convincing 30,000 to go.

Trotter · 13-02-2011 10:49am

Teaching placements and nursing placements are extremely different in their nature though. They're not really comparable.

Smiley Burnett · 13-02-2011 2:34pm

The Unions cant have it both ways!! They cant be marching on the streets demanding that frontline workers/services be protected, and then at the same time be demading that these workers be allowed avail of redundancy.

Redundancy packages/terms for those not on frontline only!!!

deise blue · 13-02-2011 5:00pm

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

The Unions cant have it both ways!! They cant be marching on the streets demanding that frontline workers/services be protected, and then at the same time be demading that these workers be allowed avail of redundancy.

Redundancy packages/terms for those not on frontline only!!!

Perhaps you might remind me of the march demanding that frontline services & workers be protected - I cannot remember one .

Guramoogah · 13-02-2011 8:57pm

Twelve days until polling day and I've yet to see or meet a single canvasser. Lucky for me and lucky for them, too. There's three votes to be had in our house so we're receiving election propaganda leaflets in triplicate, but only from Labour and FG so far.

Deise Tom · 13-02-2011 9:32pm

Guramoogah wrote: »

Twelve days until polling day and I've yet to see or meet a single canvasser. Lucky for me and lucky for them, too. There's three votes to be had in our house so we're receiving election propaganda leaflets in triplicate, but only from Labour and FG so far.

There was two in Dungarvan yesterday, in the car park leading to the shopping centre and they picked and choose who they approached. Mostly older people for the ten minutes or so i observed them.

Smiley Burnett · 13-02-2011 9:33pm

Guramoogah wrote: »

Twelve days until polling day and I've yet to see or meet a single canvasser. Lucky for me and lucky for them, too. There's three votes to be had in our house so we're receiving election propaganda leaflets in triplicate, but only from Labour and FG so far.

Be patient. Plenty of time to go before polling day!!

dlofnep · 13-02-2011 10:09pm

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

Youre making a lot of assumptions about ay redundancy offer that may be made???

its very simple really---The Govt only offers redundancy in areas where they feels cuts are necessary, due to waste and inefficiencies!!

In other words, THOSE ON THE FRONTLINE (NURSES, TEACHERS, GARDAI, COUNCIL WORKERS) are not offered redundancy!!

If the Trade Unions are serious about protecting frontline services, then they will agree to this approach!!

Perhaps (since you are in the know) - You can give is an accurate breakdown of the 30,000 redundancies? It's almost 10% of the entire public sector, and yet you feel confident in it having no impact on frontline services. Fine Gael I assume have released a paper, categorically spelling out the areas that will be hit? Otherwise, you're not in a position to make such a claim I'm afraid..

Waterford Election 2011

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