problem with Browning Buck Mark slide

firefly08

Sometimes the slide doesn't stay open when the last round is fired. I am not accidentally pressing the slide release with my hand or thumb. It happens maybe every 2 or 3 magazines.

I took it apart and cleaned the hell out of it, made no difference.

I only shoot high velocity CCI Mini Mags or similar ammo.

It never fails to eject or load from the magazine.

Any ideas?

Bananaman

Pistol or Rifle?

B'Man

gunhappy_ie

it may not be the gun ... it could be your magazine spring as it is what pushes up the hold open device when the mag is empty

firefly08

Pistol or Rifle?

Pistol, didn't know there was a rifle version!

it may not be the gun ... it could be your magazine spring as it is what pushes up the hold open device when the mag is empty

Maybe. What's strange is that I cannot reproduce the problem manually - every time I pull back the slide with an empty magazine, it locks in place.

gunhappy_ie

firefly08 wrote: »

Pistol, didn't know there was a rifle version!



Maybe. What's strange is that I cannot reproduce the problem manually - every time I pull back the slide with an empty magazine, it locks in place.

your magazine spring is getting weaker, ive seen it on several firearms pistols as well as rifles.

In the case of the HK USPs the solution was to put in wolf + power springs.

FISMA

Usually, when the slide does not stay back I suspect underpowered ammo.

It is cleaned and correctly lubed, correct. Don't over-lube. The sludge will become abrasive.

Cass

I think Fisma has a good point. Had a similar problem with my Sauer a few months back. It was a combination of both items mentioned.

The gun came with own brand lube/grease. If it was not applied correctly or in the right proportions it would be a bit temperamental. Add to that i got some "bargain" ammo to try out. Noticed that on the last shot the slide also slide forward on the empty mag. Changed ammo to Magtech 124gr and ensured proper lubing. Problem never came back.

firefly08

OK thanks guys. I am already using CCI Mini Mags and Winchester Super X which I thought were near the top of the power range. I'll have a look and see if there's anything more powerful out there.

the_doctor

firefly08 wrote: »

Sometimes the slide doesn't stay open when the last round is fired. I am not accidentally pressing the slide release with my hand or thumb. It happens maybe every 2 or 3 magazines.

I took it apart and cleaned the hell out of it, made no difference.

I only shoot high velocity CCI Mini Mags or similar ammo.

It never fails to eject or load from the magazine.

Any ideas?

Do not shoot Minimags. Why would you? There should be no need. My newer Ruger has a warning against such in its manual. Those will wear the springs.

Are you sure that it is properly extracting? Clean the extractor.

rrpc

firefly08 wrote: »

OK thanks guys. I am already using CCI Mini Mags and Winchester Super X which I thought were near the top of the power range. I'll have a look and see if there's anything more powerful out there.

You shouldn't be using HV ammo in a .22lr pistol. It's far too hard on the recoil spring. All target ammo is subsonic.

It's probably going back too quick for the hold-open to engage.

Kryten

When my Buckmark was new, it would only cycle Mini Mags. A few hundred rounds later, i tried CCI standard. No Hassle.The pistol had loosened up. Possible the Mini Mags are cycling the action faster than standard ammo and the rebound of the slide coupled with the return spring pressure is causing it to override the slide hold open function. In a nutshell, try CCI standard.

firefly08

I was using mini mags because that's what the salesman who sold me the gun recommended. I tried standard velocity Federal ammo and it was crap, nowhere near as accurate, so I thought, well the guy must have been right. In hindsight, he might have been talking through his arse, and the poor performance of the Federal ammo was probably nothing to do with the velocity.

I'll try some other lower powered rounds though, and see how that works out.

Are you sure that it is properly extracting? Clean the extractor.

Well if the cases are not extracting, then I dunno where they're going...

I cleaned the extractor fairly well though so I'm sure that's not it.

bunny shooter

Some people swear by HV in Buckmark

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359100#post3115488

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

Some people swear by HV in Buckmark

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359100#post3115488

It's not exactly swearing by them to say: "recoil springs are only a few bucks" :rolleyes:

A couple of points on pistol ammo:
1. Hollow point ammo is for hunting. The target doesn't need stopping
2. Apart from damaging your recoil spring, you'll get heavier recoil from HV ammo and that's not so good for competition shooting.
3. Many ranges don't allow HV ammo.
4. You don't need to throw the round much farther than 25m, so why use a round that's designed to go ten times that distance?

There are plenty of good target rounds out there, so you don't need to use hunting ammo for target shooting. And don't allow dealers sell you the stuff because if they try, they don't know their business.

Eley Tenex pistol
Eley Match pistol
Eley Pistol
Eley Sport
Lapua Signum
Lapua Pistol King
CCI Standard
etc.

deerhunter1

FISMA wrote: »

Usually, when the slide does not stay back I suspect underpowered ammo.

It is cleaned and correctly lubed, correct. Don't over-lube. The sludge will become abrasive.

Ya would agree slide not coming back fully to engage

rrpc

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Ya would agree slide not coming back fully to engage

There's a very easy way to test. Buy a box of subs and shoot them all. If the problem persists you have a damaged spring or slide.

firefly08

OK, I shot 150 standard velocity rounds through it today. It stovepiped an average of once or twice per magazine (always the first and second rounds from each mag), and the slide occasionally failed to lock back, although perhaps slightly less often than I had been experiencing.

I had about 40 Winchester X rounds left, so I fired those off too, no problems whatsoever - slide locked back every time, and no jams (but then it has done 4 mags without the slide problem before, so it doesn't mean much)

I have never cleaned the magazine and today I noticed it was quite dirty, so I'll try that next.

FISMA

FireFly,
In my travels I have owned several 22lr pistols. The 22lr round isn't exactly the highest quality projectile out there. I wouldn't worry too much about the slide not staying back. You should always be counting your rounds - consciously or subconsciously.

It is interesting that it's a Buckmark doing this. I never owned one, but have heard great things about them.

Is this a new problem? Is the gun new and you are just wondering about it? Was it fine and then all of a sudden the slide would not stay back?

If this were a rifle, I would say cycle some good stuff like Hornaday.

I have a cousin in the states that reloads. He says that once you shoot reloaded rifle ammo, like 30-06, you'll never shoot factory stuff again.

He has noticed that a lot of ammo does not have the correct amount of powder - they are under powered because the are underpowdered.

He was actually disassmebling some factory rounds and when he weighed the powder, he came up short. Tried a few brands and the results were similar. Hornaday, however, he has found to be true.

He reckons that a lot of the American companies do this in order to avoid lawsuits from hotter rounds.

Who knows?

firefly08

Is this a new problem? Is the gun new and you are just wondering about it? Was it fine and then all of a sudden the slide would not stay back?

Yep the gun is fairly new - I bought it in July, and I'd say I've fired less than 1000 rounds through it.

The first 400-500 were fine (all CCI Mini Mags), then I shot some cheap Federal stuff through it. I don't remember if the problem happened while shooting the Federal ammo - I didn't use that stuff for very long, maybe 200 rounds or less - but it was around that time that I started to notice the problem.

It occurred to me that I might be pressing the release accidentally, so I paid attention to that and it still happens, but then the gun always moves a little in recoil, and my left hand is never far from the release.

So, just to rule it out once and for all, I'm going to start shooting one-handed for a hundred rounds or so.

He reckons that a lot of the American companies do this in order to avoid lawsuits from hotter rounds.

Wouldn't surprise me if they have a policy of erring on the side of caution. Actually many Americans who reload their own ammo still won't use reloads in their home defence or carry weapon for a similar reason - looks bad in a trial and it leaves you open to law suits etc. Ah...America. I love it.

rrpc

FISMA wrote: »

FireFly,
In my travels I have owned several 22lr pistols. The 22lr round isn't exactly the highest quality projectile out there.

It is if you pay for them. Lots of cheap stuff out there and you could write a book about the variability of it. You can get different brass size, headspace, powder loads, bad primers or no primer etc. Lots of lads using hp rounds in pistols and really that stuff is the cheapest of the cheap, the hv stuff isn't much better. The lads in the North swear by Eley Sport for pistols and since they've been shooting pistol a lot longer than we have, I'd bow to their superior knowledge and experience.

It is interesting that it's a Buckmark doing this. I never owned one, but have heard great things about them.

I've never seen one stovepipe or fail to lock open either. Having said that, for target shooting, the hold open is a disadvantage as you get a different 'feel' from the last shot which can put you off. Most target pistols don't hold open on the last shot to ensure consistency in feel.

If this were a rifle, I would say cycle some good stuff like Hornaday.

+1, Spend a bit of money and buy a few different brands from the list I gave earlier. A lot of people find that one particular round works best in their pistol and stick with it.

There's one other thing that could cause both the stovepiping and the failed hold open and that's 'limp wrist'. If you don't lock your wrist(s) (which is one of the few motor functions you can't actually do consciously), you take some of the recoil up in the wrist flex and consequently take it from the recoil spring. The end result is that the spring doesn't do its work properly and will either stovepipe the empty or not drive back fully.

To get your wrist to lock, you push your closed fist against a solid object.

firefly08

There's one other thing that could cause both the stovepiping and the failed hold open and that's 'limp wrist'.

Possibly but I don't think it's that. I usually hold the gun fairly tightly and push back a little with my left (bad) hand. I have tried holding the gun tightly, loosely, and with one hand. As I said, firing with one hand I had no problems (unless you call not being able to hit anything a problem ) but I didn't keep it up long enough to see if it makes a difference.

I hate to admit it, but I'm beginning to reconsider the possibility that I was hitting the release sometimes with my left hand. I really tried not to, but maybe when the gun recoils it's happening without me noticing.

I'm definitely gonna try as many of the brands as possible that you recommended as soon as I get a chance go to shopping (although I don't know if they have Eley here in the States)

rrpc

firefly08 wrote: »

Possibly but I don't think it's that. I usually hold the gun fairly tightly and push back a little with my left (bad) hand. I have tried holding the gun tightly, loosely, and with one hand. As I said, firing with one hand I had no problems (unless you call not being able to hit anything a problem ) but I didn't keep it up long enough to see if it makes a difference.

Gripping tightly isn't the same thing as locking your wrist, your wrist will still rotate with a tight grip, try rotating your wrist with your fist clenched tightly and loosely and you won't notice much difference, push your fist against a wall and you'll then notice the difference.

I'm definitely gonna try as many of the brands as possible that you recommended as soon as I get a chance go to shopping (although I don't know if they have Eley here in the States)

Eley are sold in the States, and also manufactured in Mexico under license. You'll find a list of licensed Eley retailers here: http://www.gzanders.com/eley/eleylist.html

The Mexican licensee is Aguila.

Bananaman

never seen a buckmark act like that.
I've seen people shoot all kinds of 22 subs out of em with no problems.
Most people just shoot cci standard most of the time for practice.

Eley are good - expensive but very good.
Lapua are quite good too - nowhere near as expensive - but greasy - very greasy.

Most dealers should have a supply of all of the above.

Mini Mags I have never seen people use before - they may have compressed your spring.

I would recommend you went to a range - ideally one with a shop so you can try diff ammo - where people with plenty of experience can look at what you are doing and see if they can help.

B'Man

Kryten

If you are mechanically competent. Take the grips off. Inspect the spring and spring recess for the slide release. Is it full of carbon? Is the spring broken? Is the spring acting on the slide release lever, or is it jumpedin behind the lever? I used to own a buckmark pistol and never had a problem.Every 1000 rounds or so I would remove the grips and really clean the mechanism.

Rovi

I see the OP is in the US, so finding a shop with what we here in Ireland would consider to be perfectly ordinary and common, purpose manufactured and decent quality, subsonic solid target ammunition could be more difficult than we might appreciate.
Certainly, the gun shops I've been in in the US stocked vast quantities of HV hunting ammunition but very little in subsonic, and even THAT was hollow-point hunting stuff. I've never seen 'proper' .22 target ammunition for sale there.
Now, I'm sure the specialist 'target' shops will have plenty, but the regular gun shops/hardware stores/WalMarts are most unlikely to have it.
Remember, the VAST majority of .22 fired in the USA is expended whilst either plinking or hunting, and the only benefit subsonic ammunition would have for those activities would be to fire it through a silencer. 'Silencers' are a VERY BIG DEAL in the US, so not many people have them, thus there's very little demand for the subsonic ammunition to suit them.

OP: As I'm sure you know (but I'll reiterate it anyway ) we here in Ireland CANNOT possess/licence a pistol for ANY purpose other than Target Shooting, so all the Buckmarks here are used for paper-punching, and all of them that I know of use some flavour of specialist 'target' subsonic ammunition.
They are no more 'issue' prone than any other rimfire semi-automatic using such ammunition, and are better than most, and considerably better than some.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

It's not exactly swearing by them to say: "recoil springs are only a few bucks" :rolleyes:

That's your opinion & perspective which does mean it's the only opinion or perspective :rolleyes:

rrpc wrote: »

A couple of points on pistol ammo:
1. Hollow point ammo is for hunting. The target doesn't need stopping

HP's still makes holes in the paper

rrpc wrote: »

2. Apart from damaging your recoil spring, you'll get heavier recoil from HV ammo and that's not so good for competition shooting.

Refer to opening statements

rrpc wrote: »

3. Many ranges don't allow HV ammo.

Some do afaik

rrpc wrote: »

4. You don't need to throw the round much farther than 25m, so why use a round that's designed to go ten times that distance?

'cause ya can

rrpc wrote: »

There are plenty of good target rounds out there, so you don't need to use hunting ammo for target shooting. And don't allow dealers sell you the stuff because if they try, they don't know their business.

Eley Tenex pistol
Eley Match pistol
Eley Pistol
Eley Sport
Lapua Signum
Lapua Pistol King
CCI Standard
etc.

I agree, which is my opinion, BUT refer to opening statement :P

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

That's your opinion & perspective which does mean it's the only opinion or perspective :rolleyes:

I had to quote this just to make sure it's kept for posterity

HP's still makes holes in the paper

They do, but they're not designed for making holes in paper. Given the choice I'll always use the round designed for the job.

Refer to opening statements

You need to be more specific

Some do afaik

You're not disagreeing with me then.

the_doctor

firefly08 wrote: »

Yep the gun is fairly new - I bought it in July, and I'd say I've fired less than 1000 rounds through it.

The first 400-500 were fine (all CCI Mini Mags), then I shot some cheap Federal stuff through it. I don't remember if the problem happened while shooting the Federal ammo - I didn't use that stuff for very long, maybe 200 rounds or less - but it was around that time that I started to notice the problem.

It occurred to me that I might be pressing the release accidentally, so I paid attention to that and it still happens, but then the gun always moves a little in recoil, and my left hand is never far from the release.

So, just to rule it out once and for all, I'm going to start shooting one-handed for a hundred rounds or so.



Wouldn't surprise me if they have a policy of erring on the side of caution. Actually many Americans who reload their own ammo still won't use reloads in their home defence or carry weapon for a similar reason - looks bad in a trial and it leaves you open to law suits etc. Ah...America. I love it.

I still think that it is an extraction problem.

firefly08

I still think that it is an extraction problem.

I'm not sure what you mean - although there have been extraction problems with cheap low power ammo, it doesn't seem correspond with the slide problem. Whenever the slide fails to lock open, every round has been extracted perfectly.

I'm not saying it isn't an extraction problem, but beyond making sure the extractor is clean & functioning correctly (which it is), is there anything else I check?

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

I had to quote this just to make sure it's kept for posterity

Is the irony is lost on you?:P

rrpc wrote: »

They do, but they're not designed for making holes in paper. Given the choice I'll always use the round designed for the job.

Sometimes, it's just about squeezing the trigger

rrpc wrote: »

You're not disagreeing with me then.

[/QUOTE]

Not all the time

firefly08

Latest update - I got 100 Remington subsonics (the only subsonic brand I could find at the time) and fired them all. Then I fired the 100 Mini Mags I had left over. Almost zero problems. When firing the subsonics, I had the slide lock issue once. Once that happened, I immediately switched to one-handed shooting, and the issue never came back. I went back to shooting with both hands again, taking great care not to get my hand anywhere near the slide release, and the problem never came back.

So, it is looking more and more like I have been causing the issue all along, somehow touching the release with my left hand, although I have had to resort to a very uncomfortable grip to avoid it, and I can't understand why it never happened for the first few hundred rounds.

I haven't had a chance to remove the grips yet to take a close look at the slide release mechanism but I think it is working properly. It's loose when there's no mag in there, but the spring is there, I can see it.

I'm going to keep investigating. Thanks to everyone who replied, I will be taking all your advice on board!