problem with Browning Buck Mark slide

FISMA

firefly,
I am unconvinced the problem is soley in the way you are holding the gun.

Further, I am shocked that sub-sonics would cycle well. I would expect, given their lower velocity, that they would cause more problems.

Also, springs break in and do not get tighter. If the problem had been initial, I would say cycle a few thousand rounds and talk to me later. However, it worked well at first and then acted up. I am still betting on ammo.

Although, I am unable to state anything about your hold of the gun - I don't know if it is good or bad - I am concerned that you are now "very uncomfortable." I would not sacrifice comfort for the sake of the slide locking back unless it helped with accuracy.

Don't overthink this problem. Put accuracy first, comfort second, and after a thousand rounds (or two), let's talk again.

Slan

firefly08

It's funny, but out of high velocity, standard, and subsonic, the only ones that fail to cycle perfectly are the standard velocity, and I put that down to the brand (Federal).

The Remington subs I used were flawless in terms of cycling, although I had one misfire in 100 rounds (all fired as fast as I can aim). Pin struck the round, round didn't go off. I put than one back in again and it fired the next time.

I'll definitely post updates when I have tested it more, but what I know so far is that the issue has come up with 4 brands of ammo in 3 different power levels when shooting in my natural grip. But all 4 brands of ammo came up perfectly when shooting with one hand or going to great pains to keep both my thumbs away from the slide release.

rrpc

FISMA wrote: »

firefly,
I am unconvinced the problem is soley in the way you are holding the gun.

Further, I am shocked that sub-sonics would cycle well. I would expect, given their lower velocity, that they would cause more problems.

Shocked? We've been running pistol competitions in Rathdrum since 2007. High velocity ammmo is not allowed on our range, so everyone uses subs. Not once have we had any issues with any pistol using subs (other than the usual ones requiring a bit of fine tuning of ammo to get the best results). In that time we've had Buck Marks, Hammerlis, Pardinis, Walthers, Berettas, Smith and Wessons, Benellis, High Standards, Baikals and many more I can't think of right now, shooting competitively in matches without any problems.

These pistols are designed to shoot subsonic rounds because no manufacturer would make a pistol that can be used for target shooting and won't cycle target rounds. Look up the data for RWS, Eley, Lapua etc. and you'll find that their dedicated pistol rounds are all subs. Logically, a HV round will never be as accurate as a sub at normal competition ranges because of the heavier recoil. At the maximum range for pistol matches (50m) the subsonic round will not be anywhere near its maximum accurate range. Virtually the same rounds are used in rifle matches up to 100m.

Although, I am unable to state anything about your hold of the gun - I don't know if it is good or bad - I am concerned that you are now "very uncomfortable." I would not sacrifice comfort for the sake of the slide locking back unless it helped with accuracy.

+1. At worst it's a slight inconvenience to have to manually lock the slide back when finished, it'll make no diffeerence to accuracy except possibly to improve it as there's no difference between the first and last shots in the magazine (the slide closes after every one).

Personally I'm not a great fan of the Buck Mark. For the price (here) there are many better pistols on the market either new or second hand. In the US I know it's a different matter as it's a much more affordable pistol in comparison to others, but even then it has stiff competition from the Smith & Wesson and Ruger offerings.

the_doctor

firefly08 wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean - although there have been extraction problems with cheap low power ammo, it doesn't seem correspond with the slide problem. Whenever the slide fails to lock open, every round has been extracted perfectly.

I'm not saying it isn't an extraction problem, but beyond making sure the extractor is clean & functioning correctly (which it is), is there anything else I check?

I just have a feeling that it is not pulling out of the magazine properly for the next round and catching the stop. I'm thinking for some reason that it starts with it not extracting right.

Also in my opinion the Ruger is much more finicky that my Buckmark.

bill

the_doctor

rrpc wrote: »

Personally I'm not a great fan of the Buck Mark. For the price (here) there are many better pistols on the market either new or second hand. In the US I know it's a different matter as it's a much more affordable pistol in comparison to others, but even then it has stiff competition from the Smith & Wesson and Ruger offerings.

The apparent prices in Ireland do not suggest that it is a good deal.

It is the better pistol to buy in the US for $300 IMO. The Ruger and Buckmark are at the same price level. The Buckmark's trigger is considerably better. The magazine safety in the new models is not as onerous. Ruger does not carry an actual warranty.

The SW 41 is $1100 in MA. $800 at most other places. A Walther GSP Expert is $2000.

It seems that Walther is much closer to the 41 price in Ireland than in the US. I would get the GSP. It also seems that the 41 price is closer to the Buckmark. They seemed to be excessively priced.

Bill

rrpc

the_doctor wrote: »

The apparent prices in Ireland do not suggest that it is a good deal.

It is the better pistol to buy in the US for $300 IMO. The Ruger and Buckmark are at the same price level. The Buckmark's trigger is considerably better. The magazine safety in the new models is not as onerous. Ruger does not carry an actual warranty.

The SW 41 is $1100 in MA. $800 at most other places. A Walther GSP Expert is $2000.

It seems that Walther is much closer to the 41 price in Ireland than in the US. I would get the GSP. It also seems that the 41 price is closer to the Buckmark. They seemed to be excessively priced.

Bill

I think it's the same metric that makes European pistols more expensive in the US. Import costs, coupled with heavier regulation lead to higher end user prices by the time the unit is landed in either jurisdition.

Ireland is even more difficult because of the much smaller market. It usually means that the product goes through at least one other link in the chain before it gets to the consumer and everyone has to get their cut.

firefly08

At worst it's a slight inconvenience to have to manually lock the slide back when finished

True. I was concerned about all the dry-firing, but as has been pointed out previously I should really be counting the rounds anyway.

Regarding the target ammo...well I managed to find some Eley/Aguila subs, they were 60gr "Sniper Subsonic", so I thought I'd give them a try. Wow...there was no comparison, even next to CCI subsonics, which I thought would be decent. The Eley/Aguila were simply way better. The recoil felt different with the heavier bullet, but my group shrank to half the size.



Those are 8" targets shot at 15 yards (I'm only learnin' though ) The left one is a 50 round group of Eley, the right one is 40 rounds of CCI subs. As you can see about 40 of the Eleys made one big hole. I'm sold on these, even though I had one stovepipe. Does bullet weight affect accuracy much, assuming we're talking about a range of subsonic rounds?

rrpc

firefly08 wrote: »

Regarding the target ammo...well I managed to find some Eley/Aguila subs, they were 60gr "Sniper Subsonic", so I thought I'd give them a try. Wow...there was no comparison, even next to CCI subsonics, which I thought would be decent. The Eley/Aguila were simply way better. The recoil felt different with the heavier bullet, but my group shrank to half the size.

Those are 8" targets shot at 15 yards (I'm only learnin' though ) The left one is a 50 round group of Eley, the right one is 40 rounds of CCI subs. As you can see about 40 of the Eleys made one big hole. I'm sold on these, even though I had one stovepipe. Does bullet weight affect accuracy much, assuming we're talking about a range of subsonic rounds?

That's a very unusual bullet weight, I've never seen anything like that here. The weight will make a big difference in windy conditions as the heavier round won't be affected as much by it. Standard weight for .22lr is 40 grain, so it's a relatively enormous difference.

That's the way to test ammo though; use a good quantity and compare group sizes. You can use less if you're benching the pistol because there's less 'operator error' to factor in. Also test at 25m because sometimes a round won't manifest problems until it has to travel.

Good stuff though, that looks like a pretty neat group.

btw, CCI standards would be considered 'practice ammo' and is not very consistent. Had one that had no primer in it not so long ago and you get wide variance in case diameters in the same box. Keep your eye out for different brands and try everything you can lay your hands on, but keep away from the HVs if at all possible.

Edit: Just looked up that round and it's Aguila with an Eley primer. Didn't get any data on it other then a few comments that it wasn't so good at longer distances and was prone to flyers. Designed for use with silencers . Wolf Match Target should be available everywhere in the US and is considered a good practice round. At around $50/500 it should be good value!

rrpc

Just an update on those Aguila 60gr rounds. A bit more digging and I found this review: http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2009/01/aguila-22-sniper-subsonic-60-grain.html

This is what they look like; mighty strange alright



Basic problem is that they tumble and keyhole in the target at any kind of reasonable range. Need a faster twist rate to stabilise them. MV of 950fps is probably too slow but they're using a .22 short case to keep the overall length the same ass the .22lr so I doubt they can get any more powder in.

Another point to note on HV ammo is that they are considerably lighter than subs. Most of them are around 30 - 35gr and some as light as 28gr.