bike price inflation

justo

I sourced a frame/ fork set from a bike company in Washington State who distribute through a UK wholesaler. The wholesaler supply to a Dublin bikeshop who sell it to the punter on the street.

US manufacturer website advertises the frame/ fork set for €518
UK wholesaler said in email it would retail for €586
Irish bike shop said it would sell from them for €765
(prices converted from relevant currencies)

Is the increased price purely down to carraige costs, or is it a bit of a rip off?

I'd prefer to buy from UK (for costs reasons) but I'm not sure if Bike to Work scheme allows this.

Raam

justo wrote: »

I'd prefer to buy from UK (for costs reasons) but I'm not sure if Bike to Work scheme allows this.

It does allow it, but it must be a complete bike.

trad

tell the yank that you are not English as in he's not Canadian and ask him to supply direct to you as they have no distributor in this country. You will have to add shipping, 21% vat and possibly an import duty as well.

tunney

justo wrote: »

I sourced a frame/ fork set from a bike company in Washington State who distribute through a UK wholesaler. The wholesaler supply to a Dublin bikeshop who sell it to the punter on the street.

US manufacturer website advertises the frame/ fork set for €518
UK wholesaler said in email it would retail for €586
Irish bike shop said it would sell from them for €765
(prices converted from relevant currencies)

Is the increased price purely down to carraige costs, or is it a bit of a rip off?

I'd prefer to buy from UK (for costs reasons) but I'm not sure if Bike to Work scheme allows this.

B2W scheme has seen retailers whack the prices up on bikes.

justo

Raam wrote: »

It does allow it, but it must be a complete bike.

Thanks RAAM, but I'm not convinced about this. Have you seen documentation where it states that it has to be a complete bike? I've emailed the email address here to see if they can confirm.

Stark

justo wrote: »

I'd prefer to buy from UK (for costs reasons) but I'm not sure if Bike to Work scheme allows this.

The B2W scheme allows it though you'll need to check with your employer to see if they allow you to deal with a UK company or do they have a set list of companies that you have to buy from.

Raam

justo wrote: »

Thanks RAAM, but I'm not convinced about this. Have you seen documentation where it states that it has to be a complete bike? I've emailed the email address here to see if they can confirm.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/law/bik-exemption-for-bicycles.pdf

9.3 Will the exemption apply to expenditure incurred by an employer in the purchase of bicycle parts rather than a whole bicycle?
No. The exemption only applies to expenditure incurred in the purchase of a whole bicycle or associated safety equipment.

The following safety equipment will be covered by the exemption:
•
Cycle helmets which conform to European standard EN 1078
•
Bells and bulb horns
•
Lights, including dynamo packs
•
Mirrors and mudguards to ensure riders visibility is not impaired
•
Cycle clips and dress guards
•
Panniers, luggage carriers and straps to allow luggage to be safely carried
•
Locks and chains to ensure cycle can be safely secured
•
Pumps, puncture repair kits, cycle tool kits and tyre sealant to allow for minor repairs
•
Reflective clothing along with white front reflectors and spoke reflectors

Sorry for bursting your bubble

justo

Raam wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/law/bik-exemption-for-bicycles.pdf


Sorry for bursting your bubble

RAAM, I stand corrected. Although, if the bike shop is getting €1000 from my employer, and my employer is not going to go down to the underground car park to check the source of all the components, I think I can go ahead.

BTW do you know the rationale behind the restriction to not allow frame purchases under the scheme?

Raam

justo wrote: »

RAAM, I stand corrected. Although, if the bike shop is getting €1000 from my employer, and my employer is not going to go down to the underground car park to check the source of all the components, I think I can go ahead.

BTW do you know the rationale behind the restriction to not allow frame purchases under the scheme?

I don't know the rationale behind it, but I wouldn't be broadcasting to the world if I was going to just buy a frame.

Chips Lovell

justo wrote: »

RAAM, I stand corrected. Although, if the bike shop is getting €1000 from my employer, and my employer is not going to go down to the underground car park to check the source of all the components, I think I can go ahead.

It's not your employer you need to be worried about. If Revenue conducts an audit, it'll be them on your ass. Your employer could get into trouble too for not checking the purchase.

justo

el tonto wrote: »

It's not your employer you need to be worried about. If Revenue conducts an audit, it'll be them on your ass. Your employer could get into trouble too for not checking the purchase.

Alright,

Bubble burst.

This sucks.

Oldlegs

If I buy a whole bike that costs €800 for example, I can always go out myself and replace some of the parts of the original bike. That way I can upgrade some of the individual components of the whole bike which I purchased - although the cost of any additional components would not be covered by the BTW scheme.

High Nellie

<snip>

Chips Lovell

Can I remind people that advocating or advising people on how to commit tax fraud is against the rules.

Thanks

justo

Raam wrote: »

I don't know the rationale behind it, but I wouldn't be broadcasting to the world if I was going to just buy a frame.

O.K. Bubble inflated again.

I think the rule that 'a whole bicycle' must be bought is to prevent someone buying 1000 euros worth or gear and then flogging it. I don't think revenue would try to argue exactly when a bike is 'complete'. Surely buying a frame and groupset, with a view to commuting to work, is within the spirit of the BTW scheme. I'll wait to hear back from the Greenparty email address and let you know of any update.

Lumen

justo wrote: »

O.K. Bubble inflated again.

I think the rule that 'a whole bicycle' must be bought is to prevent someone buying 1000 euros worth or gear and then flogging it. I don't think revenue would try to argue exactly when a bike is 'complete'. Surely buying a frame and groupset, with a view to commuting to work, is within the spirit of the BTW scheme. I'll wait to hear back from the Greenparty email address and let you know of any update.

The green party is not the Revenue. I think you need to let go of this idea, it's not going to be legal however you arrange the moral justifications.

paddymacsporran

Hope nothing goes wrong with your frame purchase if you go ahead. The US is a long way to go to action a problem or a warranty claim, or if it arrives damaged.

The Dublin bike shop that sells them is like any other business - He has to pay rates, taxes, heat, light, wages, keep the doors open, make a living and deal with aftersales and warranty work, and having worked in the bike trade it seems a pretty small margin to be honest.

I think you're being a tad tightass and should support a local business. I'll get my coat....

Beasty

justo wrote: »

'. Surely buying a frame and groupset, with a view to commuting to work, is within the spirit of the BTW scheme.

There's no such thing as the "spirit of the law". What you are suggesting is illegal, end of story.

justo

Beasty wrote: »

There's no such thing as the "spirit of the law". What you are suggesting is illegal, end of story.

You have misquoted me. I said 'the spirit of the scheme' and both revenue and legistation allow for such flexibility.

justo

paddymacsporran wrote: »

Hope nothing goes wrong with your frame purchase if you go ahead. The US is a long way to go to action a problem or a warranty claim, or if it arrives damaged.

The Dublin bike shop that sells them is like any other business - He has to pay rates, taxes, heat, light, wages, keep the doors open, make a living and deal with aftersales and warranty work, and having worked in the bike trade it seems a pretty small margin to be honest.

I think you're being a tad tightass and should support a local business. I'll get my coat....

I'm proposing buying the bike from either a Dublin shop or one from the UK (both have the same overheads) not from the States. If the bike was damaged on arrival I would not take it. Simple. I can't afford to payroll an Irish supplier out of some foggy idea of 'buying local'. A difference of nearly €250? No way.

justo

Lumen wrote: »

The green party is not the Revenue. I think you need to let go of this idea, it's not going to be legal however you arrange the moral justifications.

I am trying to get clarity on an issue that is open to interpretation, (i.e. what constitutes a 'complete bike') from the Government Party who wrote the legislation. Revenue is tasked with monitoring the implementation the legislation not creating it.

Claims that this is 'not legal' or 'illegal' or 'fraud' are nonsense and heavy handed.

Beasty

justo wrote: »

You have misquoted me. I said 'the spirit of the scheme' and both revenue and legistation allow for such flexibility.

No they do not!!!

Beasty

justo wrote: »

I am trying to get clarity on an issue that is open to interpretation, (i.e. what constitutes a 'complete bike') from the Government Party who wrote the legislation. Revenue is tasked with monitoring the implementation the legislation not creating it.

Claims that this is 'not legal' or 'illegal' or 'fraud' are nonsense and heavy handed.

It is absolutely clear that a frame and groupset do not constitute a complete bike! Throw in some wheels, a saddle, some pedals, handlebars, put them all together and you're getting a bit warmer

What you are suggesting does constitute fraud

Kav0777

justo wrote: »

I am trying to get clarity on an issue that is open to interpretation, (i.e. what constitutes a 'complete bike') from the Government Party who wrote the legislation. Revenue is tasked with monitoring the implementation the legislation not creating it.

Claims that this is 'not legal' or 'illegal' or 'fraud' are nonsense and heavy handed.

I think you are going to the wrong people for clarity. Revenue are the ones who enforce it and will pay very little heed to an email from Dan Boyle telling you it is or is not ok. They have their guidance notes and thats what they stick to. They're not ones for substance over form.

Your best bet would be to call them, explain what you are planning, see what they say & if it is good news, get them to put it in writing. Otherwise come audit time it'll be tax with interest & penalties.

paddyduc

Have you tried haggling in the dublin bike shop. If you got it for a little under €700 with no shipping or hassle you'd be doing ok i reckon and supporting your local vat man.

justo

Kav0777 wrote: »

I think you are going to the wrong people for clarity. Revenue are the ones who enforce it and will pay very little heed to an email from Dan Boyle telling you it is or is not ok. They have their guidance notes and thats what they stick to. They're not ones for substance over form.

Your best bet would be to call them, explain what you are planning, see what they say & if it is good news, get them to put it in writing. Otherwise come audit time it'll be tax with interest & penalties.

Yeah, Thanks for that. I have emailed both the dedicated email address for the Greens for this kind of query and the dedicated email address in Revenue. There is a descrepancy between the FAQs which refer to the 'whole bike' and the Government Circular which the Department of Finance issued, which does not refer at all to the 'whole bike' concept. I have asked them to provide clarity. I will post any information here; it may be some use for boardies not living in 1940s Ireland.

Oldlegs

The whole issue of Revenue's interpretation of the BtW scheme is still vague.

"Whole Bike" etc. is not the biggest issue.

If I recall, the wording states that the bike should be primarily used for commuting. What constitutes "primarily" ? How would they audit/check what mileage a bike has ? Might the onus be put on the owner to prove the case ?
All-in-all I reckon the BTW scheme may not be long for the rule books as Revenue could argue a case that it is difficult to regulate.

So avail of it while it lasts ....

Stark

The most they have to lose though is an average of €100 per employee per year (€500 over 5 years) due to "fraud". It's pocket change compared to your typical revenue fraud. I doubt they'd shut the scheme down on account of a few people claiming on mountain bikes for the weekend and the like.

Lumen

Oldlegs wrote: »

The whole issue of Revenue's interpretation of the BtW scheme is still vague.

"Whole Bike" etc. is not the biggest issue.

If I recall, the wording states that the bike should be primarily used for commuting. What constitutes "primarily" ? How would they audit/check what mileage a bike has ? Might the onus be put on the owner to prove the case ?
All-in-all I reckon the BTW scheme may not be long for the rule books as Revenue could argue a case that it is difficult to regulate.

There is no auditing of usage required. The employee must intend at the time of purchase to use the bike for commuting. Intent is impossible to prove, so if there are any audits they'll likely just be of the paperwork held by the company.

It's a beautifully simple scheme. The only confusion exists in the minds of people trying to find loopholes. If you're happy swearing to a judge that you honestly intended to use your disc-wheeled brakeless track bike for commuting, then good luck with that.

Beasty

The term used is "mainly" which means the intention when the bike is purchased is for it to be used more than 50% for commuting.

ashleey

Stark wrote: »

The most they have to lose though is an average of €100 per employee per year (€500 over 5 years) due to "fraud". It's pocket change compared to your typical revenue fraud. I doubt they'd shut the scheme down on account of a few people claiming on mountain bikes for the weekend and the like.

They might do, given that they haven't a pot to p@ss in.

Chips Lovell

The Green Party did not write the legislation. The Department of Finance did. It was announced as part of the October 2008 budget and brought into law by the subsequent Finance Act.

When the scheme was first announced, I emailed the Department of Finance with a list of questions about the scheme (I was covering it at the time). One of the questions I asked was:

Can the scheme be used to buy bike parts rather than a whole bike? In other words, if someone wants to buy wheels or a bicycle frame, can they fund their purchase under the scheme?

The answer I got was:

No

That was subsequently born out by the Finance Act and the explanatory documents produced by Revenue.

Beasty

ashleey wrote: »

They might do, given that they haven't a pot to p@ss in.

I think it's unlikely - it costs very little (particularly now the initial surge is over), it's supported by the Greens, and could cost them a few votes if they did away with it.

ashleey

Beasty wrote: »

I think it's unlikely - it costs very little (particularly now the initial surge is over), it's supported by the Greens, and could cost them a few votes if they did away with it.

I agree with you but underestimate the revenue at your peril. They are busily shutting down companies all over the country.

C3PO

Is it just me or does anyone else find the assumption of the "moral high ground" displayed in some of the posts above a little hard to stomach? Com'n guys we all know that the vast majority of bikes bought under the scheme are never used for commuting! So is that any different to buying a frame rather than a complete bike? Like many laws in Ireland this one is observed by the minority rather than the majority similar to speaking on the phone while driving, exceeding 30kms per hour on the quays, riding through red lights (when it is safe to do so) etc etc. I know we shouldn't do any of these things but most of us do!

Beasty

RPL1 wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else find the assumption of the "moral high ground" displayed in some of the posts above a little hard to stomach? Com'n guys we all know that the vast majority of bikes bought under the scheme are never used for commuting! So is that any different to buying a frame rather than a complete bike? Like many laws in Ireland this one is observed by the minority rather than the majority similar to speaking on the phone while driving, exceeding 30kms per hour on the quays, riding through red lights (when it is safe to do so) etc etc. I know we shouldn't do any of these things but most of us do!

What individuals do is entirely up to them. What is not acceptable is posters coming on here encouraging others to break the law. The next person that does it will receive an infraction

Beasty

Idleater

"most" of the people you are referring to don't post on a cycling specific forum asking for advice on how to get around a perceived technicality.

I've no problem with what people do in their private capacity, but when the error of their ways is pointed out to them when they asked if it was ok, then, no, I don't agree with turning a blind eye to it. The OP can no longer legitimately claim ignorance of the fact that what they are intending to do is tax fraud.

Bessie who bought her €350 new clunker with suspension to go to the shops on instead of work and actually knows no better hasn't been on here being told otherwise.

IMO, the OP can do what they like, but at least stand up and acknowledge the fact that the points as brought across do show they are contra to the scheme conditions, and also stand up and take it if they do get caught out on it. Be accountable for your own actions.
<edit>
well done Beasty
</edit>

Lumen

RPL1 wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else find the assumption of the "moral high ground" displayed in some of the posts above a little hard to stomach?

I see no discussion of morality.

Were you asking the internet for moral permission to evade tax? That's probably one for After Hours.

C3PO

Lumen wrote: »

Were you asking the internet for moral permission to evade tax?

Of course not .... I wouldn't dream of asking anyone (least of all an internet forum) for permission to evade tax! :cool:

justo

This thread has moved somewhat from my original query about purchase price of a bike inside vs. outside Ireland, but I would like to update on the issue which has dominated the thread of buying a complete bike vs. buying a bike frame under the bike to work scheme.

I have had email and phone responses from a number of agencies and the case is as posters had outlined above: under the scheme you must buy a complete bike 'that can be cycled from the shop' as one official said. i.e. buying a frame is not allowed.

When I outlined my intention to buy a frame under the scheme and then to build with parts I bought myself I was told ' it sounds like you're building some sort of racer there'.

It seems that Revenue considers the commuter to be happy with the bike stock available and if they want something more specialised (excuse the pun) that they are up to some mischief.

The fact that the intention was to replace my old bike, which I currently commute to work on each day, and is about 5 yeas old, with the new frame and 'build' was not accepted as valid. I think this is a pity and the determining factor should be whether the purchaser uses the bike to commute to work or not.

Raam

There is nothing wrong with having a bike shop build a bike up for you to commute on and then use the scheme to pay for it, if that is what you are wondering.

Kav0777

justo wrote: »

I will post any information here; it may be some use for boardies not living in 1940s Ireland.

ednwireland

justo wrote: »

This thread has moved somewhat from my original query about purchase price of a bike inside vs. outside Ireland, but I would like to update on the issue which has dominated the thread of buying a complete bike vs. buying a bike frame under the bike to work scheme.

I have had email and phone responses from a number of agencies and the case is as posters had outlined above: under the scheme you must buy a complete bike 'that can be cycled from the shop' as one official said. i.e. buying a frame is not allowed.

When I outlined my intention to buy a frame under the scheme and then to build with parts I bought myself I was told ' it sounds like you're building some sort of racer there'.

It seems that Revenue considers the commuter to be happy with the bike stock available and if they want something more specialised (excuse the pun) that they are up to some mischief.

The fact that the intention was to replace my old bike, which I currently commute to work on each day, and is about 5 yeas old, with the new frame and 'build' was not accepted as valid. I think this is a pity and the determining factor should be whether the purchaser uses the bike to commute to work or not.

funny i want to do the same thing replace my current commuting frame with a planet-x kaffenback (room for bigger tyres, canti brakes, rack mounts etc etc)

-Chris-

Would this work?

-You strip your old bike and bring the components to the local bike shop who you're ordering your frame through.
-You give them the components.
-They build up the frame with your components.
-You leave the shop with a bike you can "cycle away" and an invoice from the shop for the "supply of a complete bike built around a XXXX frame".

TinyExplosions

justo wrote: »

This thread has moved somewhat from my original query about purchase price of a bike inside vs. outside Ireland, but I would like to update on the issue which has dominated the thread of buying a complete bike vs. buying a bike frame under the bike to work scheme.

I have had email and phone responses from a number of agencies and the case is as posters had outlined above: under the scheme you must buy a complete bike 'that can be cycled from the shop' as one official said. i.e. buying a frame is not allowed.

When I outlined my intention to buy a frame under the scheme and then to build with parts I bought myself I was told ' it sounds like you're building some sort of racer there'.

It seems that Revenue considers the commuter to be happy with the bike stock available and if they want something more specialised (excuse the pun) that they are up to some mischief.

The fact that the intention was to replace my old bike, which I currently commute to work on each day, and is about 5 yeas old, with the new frame and 'build' was not accepted as valid. I think this is a pity and the determining factor should be whether the purchaser uses the bike to commute to work or not.

You could get the bike shop do to a complete build for you, based on your specs, then you're buying a complete bike -nowhere does it say it has to be a 'stock' item

Beasty

-Chris- wrote: »

Would this work?

-You strip your old bike and bring the components to the local bike shop who you're ordering your frame through.
-You give them the components.
-They build up the frame with your components.
-You leave the shop with a bike you can "cycle away" and an invoice from the shop for the "supply of a complete bike built around a XXXX frame".

It won't work - it needs to be a "new" bike, and dressing a new frame up with old parts means it's not new for these purposes. Using your own parts makes it even worse, as the bike shop is only supplying the frame and assembly services, rather than a new bike

Lumen

This is really very simple.

Are you buying a new bike - NO -> FAIL
|
Yes
|
Do you intend to use it primarily for commuting - NO -> FAIL
|
Buy bike under scheme.

Beasty

justo wrote: »

When I outlined my intention to buy a frame under the scheme and then to build with parts I bought myself I was told ' it sounds like you're building some sort of racer there'.

I use my racer(s) to commute - I reckon commuting represents around 70% of my cycling on it. The fact I use it for racing as part of the remaining 30% is irrelevant - it is clearly used mainly for commuting (and more importantly, that was the intention when I bought it)

(although in my particular case it's all irrelevant, as I did not purchase either bike under the BTW scheme!)

Hungrycol

...or used for other "qualifying journeys" such as to the train/bus to continue your journey into work. The intention is to use it for commuting (or other qualitying journeys) but there is no way to police this so just buy what you want, albeit new, and dont be too hung up on cycling into work.

Beasty

Beasty wrote: »

What individuals do is entirely up to them. What is not acceptable is posters coming on here encouraging others to break the law. The next person that does it will receive an infraction

Beasty

Hungrycol wrote: »

... but there is no way to police this so just buy what you want, albeit new, and dont be too hung up on cycling into work.

Do not ignore mod warnings

Beasty

justo

At the moment I cycle to and from work 5 days a week - 4 on a bad week, all year round. I only cycle occasionally at weekends.

I want to replace my current bike and continue this practice.

My last post is to confirm the state of play, from Revenue's perspective for other Boardies who may find it of use.