Roads that could be upgraded quickly to 2+2

Amtmann

Bad smash on the N2 Carrickmacross Bypass yesterday. Could it be upgraded to type 2?

ardmacha

This type of offline road with some flyovers should be ideal for conversion to 2+2. Even in the photo if the crash barriers were moved to the sound barriers then a 2+2 would be easy enough to do. Yesterday's accident shows why you might want to do this.

JupiterKid

That was a horrific accident. I think the WS2 type of road has a poor record for head on collisions and fatal accidents. Lives have definitely been saved by the replacement of WS2 on the national primary network by the motorways.

I would be a firm supporter of converting as much WS2 to 2+2 for the puropse of making the road safer.

Irish and Proud

JupiterKid wrote: »

That was a horrific accident. I think the WS2 type of road has a poor record for head on collisions and fatal accidents. Lives have definitely been saved by the replacement of WS2 on the national primary network by the motorways.

I would be a firm supporter of converting as much WS2 to 2+2 for the puropse of making the road safer.

Just to confirm, the section of N2 road shown above is Standard S2:

2 x 3.65m Lanes
2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders
Total Pavement: 12.3m
Verges: 3.0m (could be upgraded to 2+1)

The specs for WS2 are:

2 x 5.00m Lanes
2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders
Total Pavement: 15.0m
Verges: 3.0m (could be upgraded to 2+2)

The specs for Type 3 DC (2+1) are:

2 x 0.50m Verge Strips
3 x 3.50m Lanes
1 x 1.50m Median
Total Pavement: 13.0m (retrofit)
Verges: 2.5m

The specs for Type 2 DC (2+2) are:

2 x 0.50m Verge Strips
4 x 3.50m Lanes
1 x 1.50m Median
Total Pavement: 16.5m (new build)
Verges: 2.5m

I'll let you guys discuss!

niloc1951

My experience from driving in France is that 2+1 can be implemented at very little expense on an S2 roadways.
Common practice there is to use heavily serrated double white rumble strips (not wires as used here) to effect the separation and even heavier penalties for motorists caught on the wrong side

Chris_5339762

Irish drivers cant drive on 2+1s, there is a mad panic to pass at the end of the 2 section.

Horrible type of road. 2+2s are better, if overspecced.

L1011

The locals in Piltown claim the 2+1 there is more dangerous than the S2 through and between the towns it bypassed (Piltown and Fiddown). There has been far more deaths on it than you'd expect on a modern road scheme, let alone one with a safety barrier.

ardmacha

Irish drivers cant drive on 2+1s, there is a mad panic to pass at the end of the 2 section.

Simple cure, put a camera where lanes drop from two to one, if anyone either speeds or crosses into the hatched area then send them a ticket. You'd be suprised how people would get the hang of it after a while.

Jayuu

ardmacha wrote: »

Simple cure, put a camera where lanes drop from two to one, if anyone either speeds or crosses into the hatched area then send them a ticket. You'd be suprised how people would get the hang of it after a while.

+1

2+1 would have been a quick and simple way to upgrade a lot of smaller roads and provide a higher level of safety on them. Now I know the Piltown-Fiddown bypass and its wasn't well implemented - the wire barrier in the middle of the road is too indistinct and the junctions off the road are too far out into the driving lanes for comfort - but this form of road works well in other countries and it could have worked well here.

The idea that drivers are too stupid or careless to drive properly is not a good enough excuse. We were told for years that it wasn't possible for Irish drivers not to drink and drive and yet now most of us wouldn't dream of it now. With the advent of mobile speed cameras I reckon over the next ten years most of us will be careful of speeding as well. People's attitudes change with education and sometime with the threat of penalty.

ardmacha

Now I know the Piltown-Fiddown bypass and its wasn't well implemented - the wire barrier in the middle of the road is too indistinct and the junctions off the road are too far out into the driving lanes for comfort

I am familiar with the N2 Castleblayney bypass and it has a number of issues other than the problem of people squeezing past at the end of the 2 lane section. These include 2 lane sections without reference to topography, so that you have one lane going uphill and two lanes down, the exact opposite of traditional S3 roads. Also junctions with sharp turnoffs which would require large vehicles to slow down substantially to when leaving the road, a short slip lane would be reasonable here.

New builds should be 2+2, but 2+1 with better attention to detail has a role in upgrades.

Carawaystick

ardmacha wrote: »

I am familiar with the N2 Castleblayney bypass and it has a number of issues other than the problem of people squeezing past at the end of the 2 lane section. These include 2 lane sections without reference to topography, so that you have one lane going uphill and two lanes down, the exact opposite of traditional S3 roads. Also junctions with sharp turnoffs which would require large vehicles to slow down substantially to when leaving the road, a short slip lane would be reasonable here.

New builds should be 2+2, but 2+1 with better attention to detail has a role in upgrades.

There's a section of 2+2 on the N4 where the old road heading towards Sligo has a merge but there's no shoulder or slip lane, locals complained and the nra said no - it's designed like that on purpose.

If you're in the driving lane on a normal DC, and see someone on the onramp you can move right to let them merge, but if you see a stopped car, then you're far less likely to do this.

Is the N2 at 'Blaney so badly designed? I thought the N20 was bad as there was so much 1+1 sections due to junctions etc, I'd have thought a new build section would not have these obvious faults.

While I would have said the N1 at Shantalla, Santry is an obvious candidate, I've seen Ambulances and cops needing to cross carriageways to get where they were going in reasonable congestion on one side of the road.

FGR

I know it's rehashing old topics but if people were educated as to when hard shoulders should be used then most standard roadways would flow fairly smoothly.

I'm a supporter of 2+1; although not ideal it is definitely a low cost solution to a lot of the problems.

The N25 at both Youghal and Kilmacthomas both suffer from the issue of bridges possibly being too narrow. It's a shame it wasn't thought about at the design stage for possible future upgrades but I don't think there's much that can be done without massive spending on those bridges.

niloc1951

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I know it's rehashing old topics but if people were educated as to when hard shoulders should be used then most standard roadways would flow fairly smoothly.

I'm a supporter of 2+1; although not ideal it is definitely a low cost solution to a lot of the problems.

The N25 at both Youghal and Kilmacthomas both suffer from the issue of bridges possibly being too narrow. It's a shame it wasn't thought about at the design stage for possible future upgrades but I don't think there's much that can be done without massive spending on those bridges.

Our road designers appear be living in a bubble and not to have driven in other European countries which are light years ahead of us.
Examples: should have
2+1 using paint and heavy penalties
'p' junctions for turning across oncoming traffic, 'q' as they would be here. This type of junction enables traffic avoid the danger of being rear ended while waiting to turn.
Proper slip lanes, not like those where the M8 joins the M7.
Reduces speed limits at high risk areas on rural sections of main roads.
Simple rest areas with adequate parking and basic toilet facilities, properly designed with breaking and accelerating slip roads, to facilitate drivers counter fatigue and HGV drivers to comply with driving hours legislation.
Service areas.
Examples: should't have
Electronic message boards which refer to 'FAST LANE'
2 lane sections on hills which are marked to indicate that inside lane traffic (often referred to as the 'slow' thereby reinforcing the misconception that the outer lane is the 'fast' lane) is to give way to overtaking traffic, not nice of you are trying to keep a heavy or slow vehicle in motion.
Sections of N roads not much more than 6 meters wide with 100 km.p.h. speed limits.
Little or no enforcement of reduced speed limits at roadworks.
'Forgotten' signage referring to events or road conditions pertaining weeks, months or even years in the past.
Older signs obstructed by new signs.
Signs so dirty or concealed by foliage that are nearly impossible to read.

None of the above is 'rocket science', would not cost vast sums to implement, but it would show that those who should know actually care enough to do something about the environment we all have to drive in. It might actually reduce accidents and save a few lives.

I could go on but rant over.

ardmacha

While I would have said the N1 at Shantalla, Santry is an obvious candidate, I've seen Ambulances and cops needing to cross carriageways to get where they were going in reasonable congestion on one side of the road.

There is no reason no to have 2 lanes inbound here, even if one was a bus lane.

Is the N2 at 'Blaney so badly designed? I thought the N20 was bad as there was so much 1+1 sections due to junctions etc, I'd have thought a new build section would not have these obvious faults.

I do not think the N2 2+1 is well designed for a green field scheme.

Southern end of scheme. Single lane up gradual incline from roundabout, two lanes downhill into the roundabout

R183 junction. Sharp turn. If a HGV exits here it would have to slow right down. A HGV behind this would have to slow down too, on a gradual incline, without any opportunity for vehicles to pass.