The End (Christian responses only)

Zombrex

Something PDN said reminded me I always had a question about the end times

PDN wrote: »

I doubt if there's time for anything else to evolve from us. We're going to screw up the planet before that happens.

If say the Sun explodes before the Rapture would that be evidence God doesn't exist?

Or can the Rapture happen without an Earth? Or do most Christians actually believe in the Rapture or is it just Americans who take that seriously/literally?

Does the idea that we all kill ourselves or are killed by a natural event (a virus, a meteor, the Sun exploding) still fit within a Biblical framework of the future? Are there events that must take place, such as the Rapture, if this stuff is true? Or is that only if you take a very literal view towards Revelations?

SonOfAdam

Wicknight wrote:

If say the Sun explodes before the Rapture would that be evidence God doesn't exist?

You really are determined to find that evidence It's probably a safe bet if the sun explodes before.

wrote:

Or can the Rapture happen without an Earth? Or do most Christians actually believe in the Rapture or is it just Americans who take that seriously/literally?

The Rapture is of the living church - so without an earth what would be raptured?

wrote:

Does the idea that we all kill ourselves or are killed by a natural event (a virus, a meteor, the Sun exploding) still fit within a Biblical framework of the future? Are there events that must take place, such as the Rapture, if this stuff is true? Or is that only if you take a very literal view towards Revelations?

I think so. One of the judgments in Revelations is an earthquake (a natural event) although it's a very big one. There are events that are ordained to happen 'if this stuff is true'

Zombrex

SonOfAdam wrote: »

You really are determined to find that evidence It's probably a safe bet if the sun explodes before.

Not really. In general I am quite curious is there anything that could happen that would make a Christian question the correctness of the Bible. It seems that from the perspective of a believer every scientific discover supports the Bible and none weaken support for it, even the scientific theories that are later shown to be wrong.

This is related to the wider question of falsification, ie how can you theoretically falsify the Bible. But that is sort of getting off the topic.

SonOfAdam wrote: »

The Rapture is of the living church - so without an earth what would be raptured?

That is the question. So would the destruction of the Earth and all life on it cause you to reevaluation your faith in the Bible (obviously in the few seconds you had left before this happened).

SonOfAdam wrote: »

I think so. One of the judgments in Revelations is an earthquake (a natural event) although it's a very big one. There are events that are ordained to happen 'if this stuff is true'

Could that be reinterpreted if the Earth didn't exist, or do you think it is meant to be taken literally rather than metaphorically.

SonOfAdam

Wicknight wrote:

That is the question. So would the destruction of the Earth and all life on it cause you to reevaluation your faith in the Bible (obviously in the few seconds you had left before this happened)

I think if that were to happen then I would have to hold my hands up and say, "ya know, maybe wicknight was right". However, there are prophesies that are to be fulfilled and we will see 'the signs of the times' long before the destruction of the earth. The judgments of God are not only to judge the inhabitants of the earth but also a call to repentance, another chance, if you will

wrote:

Could that be reinterpreted if the Earth didn't exist, or do you think it is meant to be taken literally rather than metaphorically.

I can't see an earthquake happening on a non-existant earth , if that's what you mean

Zombrex

SonOfAdam wrote: »

I think if that were to happen then I would have to hold my hands up and say, "ya know, maybe wicknight was right".

Cool, here's hoping the Sun explodes :P

SonOfAdam wrote: »

I can't see an earthquake happening on a non-existant earth , if that's what you mean

I meant more could it be a metaphor, like Genesis 1?

SonOfAdam

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" Rev.6

I don't think this is metaphorical - I believe it will happen as described

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

If say the Sun explodes before the Rapture would that be evidence God doesn't exist?

Or can the Rapture happen without an Earth? Or do most Christians actually believe in the Rapture or is it just Americans who take that seriously/literally?

You do realise that we don't all believe the the Rapture, right?

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You do realise that we don't all believe the the Rapture, right?

That is part of what I was asking, the Rapture is something I've only really seen referenced in the States, but I'm unfamiliar with other end time doctrines.

For those that don't believe in the Rapture is there alternative version so of the end times

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

If say the Sun explodes before the Rapture would that be evidence God doesn't exist?

Yes.

Or can the Rapture happen without an Earth?

No.

Or do most Christians actually believe in the Rapture or is it just Americans who take that seriously/literally?

All Christians believe in the Rapture, but there is disagreement as to whether it occurs before or after the Tribulation. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is so firmly held by many that the term 'The Rapture' is often taken to mean that. That, however, is only a fairly recent understanding of the Rapture - a bit like Theistic Evolution

Does the idea that we all kill ourselves or are killed by a natural event (a virus, a meteor, the Sun exploding) still fit within a Biblical framework of the future?

Not if 'all' is meant. Global disasters and wars are part of the end-times scenarios, but not total extinction.

Are there events that must take place, such as the Rapture, if this stuff is true? Or is that only if you take a very literal view towards Revelations?

Yes, there are several things to happen before the absolute End, the Rapture being one of them. And it is not only Revelation that speaks of these things. for example:
2 Thessalonians 2: Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
_________________________________________________________________
2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

If say the Sun explodes before the Rapture would that be evidence God doesn't exist?

The Rapture (literally catching away) of the Church (i.e. the body of alive and dead believers on earth) is when Jesus comes back to take his church home to be in eternity with Him. If the Sun explodes before that happens then the earth will be destroyed too, which would mean that there would be no earth from which to rapture the church. Which means that any prophecies concerning this event were false and as such the religion in question would be false too which would mean that in this case the Christian God is false and therefore doesn't exist. Lot of 'ifs' though.

Wicknight wrote: »

Or can the Rapture happen without an Earth?

By definition the rapture is the catching away of the body of Christ from the earth, so with no earth around I would say that its safe to assume that no rapture will take place.

Wicknight wrote: »

Or do most Christians actually believe in the Rapture or is it just Americans who take that seriously/literally?

Some do some don't. I do. And I believe that it will take place before the seven year tribulation which is the wrath of God being poured out on those who are not covered by the atonement of Jesus. Those who are i.e. the Church, will be taken out because the wrath of God was already poured out on the body of Christ and due to His perfection, once is enough. For God to pour out His wrath on the body of Christ a second time is to say that once wasn't enough. God would not allow Moses to enter the promises land because after God told him to speak to the rock, he struck it a second time and interfered with God's revelatory plan nd was thus not allowed entry.

Wicknight wrote: »

Does the idea that we all kill ourselves or are killed by a natural event (a virus, a meteor, the Sun exploding) still fit within a Biblical framework of the future? Are there events that must take place, such as the Rapture, if this stuff is true? Or is that only if you take a very literal view towards Revelations?

Its God who shortens the days.

"If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them." Mark 11:20

Left to our own devices we will destroy ourselves. If God's word is true then He will be back before that happens. Rememberer that the word Apocalypse simply means revealing. The world will not end as many suppose. There will be a time of trouble such that was never seen since the beginning but it will come to and end after seven years. The LORD comes back and destroys His enemies and sets up His Kingdom which will last a thousand years and then after that there is another little skirmish with Satan who is destroyed then God creates all things new. Good news really.

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

All Christians believe in the Rapture, but there is disagreement as to whether it occurs before or after the Tribulation.

Catholics don't believe in the rapture.

are Catholics not Christians?

Point of fact "The Rapture" is a notion invented by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) and has no scripptural support.

riffmongous

Does it need to be this Earth? As in what if we move to another planet first? Since no one really believes we are going to be taken up into the clouds anymore will it matter what planet we are on? Although personally I'd never heard of the Rapture until I was watching the Simpsons, now the Apocalypse on the otherhand, I know about and have always assumed to be metaphorical, but serious in intention.

SonOfAdam

festus wrote:

Catholics don't believe in the rapture.

are Catholics not Christians?

Point of fact "The Rapture" is a notion invented by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) and has no scripptural support.

Catholics don't believe in a lot of things, like the Galatian church they impose the yoke of slavery to the gospel of grace.

The rapture is a 'notion' that is founded in biblical prophesy a.o
1 Thes 4.13-18 and Matt 24.36-41. The issue is the timeline in which this will take place, whether it occurs pre/mid/post-tribulation is a matter of conjecture. But Soul Winner gives a good reason for his belief in the pre-trib rapture, that the wrath of God was exhausted on the cross for those who accept it. Whichever is the case we are exhorted to be watchful for the day the Master returns.

Festus

SonOfAdam wrote: »

Catholics don't believe in a lot of things, like the Galatian church they impose the yoke of slavery to the gospel of grace.

The rapture is a 'notion' that is founded in biblical prophesy a.o
1 Thes 4.13-18 and Matt 24.36-41. The issue is the timeline in which this will take place, whether it occurs pre/mid/post-tribulation is a matter of conjecture. But Soul Winner gives a good reason for his belief in the pre-trib rapture, that the wrath of God was exhausted on the cross for those who accept it. Whichever is the case we are exhorted to be watchful for the day the Master returns.

No, issue is that the rapture is blatant protestant eisegesis from 1850ish.

SonOfAdam

festus wrote:

No, issue is that the rapture is blatant protestant eisegesis from 1850ish

Well could you provide a blatant catholic one for those verses ?
I'd be interested to hear that.

Festus

SonOfAdam wrote: »

Well could you provide a blatant catholic one for those verses ?
I'd be interested to hear that.

Catholics don't do eisegesis

antiskeptic

Festus wrote: »

Catholics don't do eisegesis

They don't need to - they can appeal to 'sacred tradition' for their interpretation of the Bible instead. I mean, one cannot exegetically pull a rabbit the size of the Roman Catholic church out of the "on this rock.." hat

Festus

antiskeptic wrote: »

They don't need to - they can appeal to 'sacred tradition' for their interpretation of the Bible instead. I mean, one cannot exegetically pull a rabbit the size of the Roman Catholic church out of the "on this rock.." hat

With God all things are possible

SonOfAdam

Well could you provide a catholic Exegesis or is it a case that catholics don't hold to that view therefore no explaination is required ?

Festus

SonOfAdam wrote: »

Well could you provide a catholic Exegesis or is it a case that catholics don't hold to that view therefore no explaination is required ?

the latter

antiskeptic

double post

antiskeptic

Festus wrote: »

With God all things are possible

Then let him exegetically pull that rabbit out of the hat. Until he does you're left on your own, engaging in eisegisis and are relying instead on sacred tradition for your interpretation.

Festus

antiskeptic wrote: »

Then let him exegetically pull that rabbit out of the hat. Until he does you're left on your own, engaging in eisegisis and are relying instead on sacred tradition for your interpretation.

Jesus made it so when He founded His Church. His One and Only Church.

and I don't do interpretation. That is the demesne of the Magesterium

antiskeptic

Festus wrote: »

Jesus made it so when He founded His Church. His One and Only Church.

Yes, yes.. but the suggestion is that because that view cannot be arrived at exegetically it is eisegetical. And you said Roman Catholics don't do that.

and I don't do interpretation. That is the demesne of the Magesterium

The eisegesis is what they are engaging in.

Zombrex

Guys lets not turn this into a Catholic vs Protestant thing.

I'm just looking for views here, you don't have to argue that the other persons view is wrong. I'm not assuming that because one Christian says something it holds for all Christians. A simple "This is what I believe ..." is enough.

ISAW

How about

the events as described in the Revelation of St John have already happened?

Well most of them anyway

Festus

Wicknight wrote: »

Guys lets not turn this into a Catholic vs Protestant thing.

I'm just looking for views here, you don't have to argue that the other persons view is wrong. I'm not assuming that because one Christian says something it holds for all Christians. A simple "This is what I believe ..." is enough.

the problem is your assumption that the rapture is true and known to all Christians. this is not the case and mention of the rapture muddies the waters. there are too many protestent and non denominational Christian interpretations of the Rapture, what it is, is it, when and what will happen to allow for an unambiguous discussion.

For Catholics it is easy - there is no rapture concept. There is the Second Coming and there are eschatological events. What will happen will happen as described in Revelation. Whether or not it will occur literally, figuratively or symbollically is a different matter entirely and may be subject to "interpretation" by some. For eschatological matters as with other matters of our faith we take our guidance from there revealed interpretation of the Magesterium. Protestants are wont to disagree but that is their problem.

You question would be better framed as "What if the sun explodes before the prophecy contained within the Book of Revelation is fulfilled."

You mention thinks like killer viruses and it appears you are contending that all humans die by their own actions. A virus may kill off many but not all humans and so those that remain may see Revelation fulfilled.

A meteor strike likewise would not kill off all humans and leave many to see Revelation fulfilled.

That leaves your sun exploding question. To Catholics that is something that will happen after Revelation is fulfilled. It may even be the final act of Revelation.

Would it be evidence that God does not exist? If the sun did explode prematurely the existence of God would be moot.

ISAW is closer to the truth - are we living in End Times, is what we are living through part of what has been described in Revelation. To many there is much that goes beyond coincidence.

SonOfAdam

ISAW wrote:

How about

the events as described in the Revelation of St John have already happened?

Well most of them anyway

I'm more inclined to futurism in relation to Revelation but would be interested to know what you think has already taken place, particularly regarding the trumpet and seal judgments - or have they still to come ?

ISAW

SonOfAdam wrote: »

I'm more inclined to futurism in relation to Revelation but would be interested to know what you think has already taken place, particularly regarding the trumpet and seal judgments - or have they still to come ?

didn't they re run the omen trilogy on SYFY channel last week?

The Last judgement goes into the hasent happened yet pile with the second coming.
Orthodox tradition identifies 85 AD as the time of Revelation's final creation, placing the author and his audience in a time of intense persecution under the Roman Emperor Domitian. Other scholars alternatively suggest the Neronian persecutions as the time of Revelation's creation. In either case, it appears as though Revelation was written during a historical period hostile to the message and methods of Christianity as a whole. It may be that Revelation's author both adopted his symbolic style and utilized a tightly-knit parallel structure to obscure the Christianity story enough to save it from destruction yet still communicate its central message. Only those already familiar with the Jewish symbolism from which he borrows so heavily will understand the original meanings of those symbols and comprehend the new message which he is trying to communicate.

Most of the rest are dealt with in Catholic theology. Histoprical empires roman Emporers Persecutions of Christians. Most probably finished by about the fourth century. That would include a fair few or all of the seven trumpets. Id have to have a read through.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Book_of_Revelation

This is often called the Preterist (from Latin, meaning "Past") school of interpretation.

Zombrex

Festus wrote: »

the problem is your assumption that the rapture is true and known to all Christians. this is not the case and mention of the rapture muddies the waters. there are too many protestent and non denominational Christian interpretations of the Rapture, what it is, is it, when and what will happen to allow for an unambiguous discussion.

That isn't a "problem". It should be perfectly possible for people to put forward what they believe without getting into an argument with someone else over what they believe. If someone doesn't believe in the Rapture they can say so without someone else saying they must be wrong.

Festus

Wicknight wrote: »

That isn't a "problem". It should be perfectly possible for people to put forward what they believe without getting into an argument with someone else over what they believe. If someone doesn't believe in the Rapture they can say so without someone else saying they must be wrong.

Agreed but back track a bit to where this came from. OP - reference to Rapture. Me, not involved.

Post #9 - wolfsbane - "all Christians believe in the Rapture" despite what Fanny said in post #7. This is a completely wrong assertion and me rowed in to challenge and point out that Catholics don't and gave reference to the source of the rapture concept.

Now, if you want a discussion on exploding suns upsetting the rapture concept maybe you should have flagged the post non-catholic Christians only. But you didn't.

So let us continue safe in the knowledge that the rapture is an interpretation held by some but not all Christians.

So are you questioning the rapture if which case I'm not interested or are you questioning if the sun explodes, as we expect it will some time, before all Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled that this might upset the concept of the existince of God.

if the sun does explode, or some other catastrophy befalls humankind to the point that humans cease to exist then who will be around to discuss the existence or not of God?

If fairness we don't know enough about supernovae to be able to say. maybe the sun expands slowly first so we get three days of tribulation. Maybe as part of that process dark matter appears and blocks the suns light so we cannot see it expanding hence three days of darkness.

I suspect the sun exploding without warning would not happen without Divine intervention in which case the existence of God is proven.

Zombrex

Festus wrote: »

Agreed but back track a bit to where this came from. OP - reference to Rapture. Me, not involved.

Post #9 - wolfsbane - "all Christians believe in the Rapture" despite what Fanny said in post #7. This is a completely wrong assertion and me rowed in to challenge and point out that Catholics don't and gave reference to the source of the rapture concept.

Great, you can say Catholics don't without getting into an argument about it, with Wolfsbane, SonOfAdam or with me.

I'm not interested in you using this thread to prove to them that they are wrong or them that you are wrong.

Simply state your beliefs. Otherwise the thread just becomes an argument on the validity of Catholicism.

Just because Wolfsbane or SonOfAdam says something doesn't mean it becomes set in stone fact that you have to get into an argument over.

Zombrex

Festus wrote: »

So let us continue safe in the knowledge that the rapture is an interpretation held by some but not all Christians.

So are you questioning the rapture if which case I'm not interested or are you questioning if the sun explodes, as we expect it will some time, before all Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled that this might upset the concept of the existince of God.

if the sun does explode, or some other catastrophy befalls humankind to the point that humans cease to exist then who will be around to discuss the existence or not of God?

If fairness we don't know enough about supernovae to be able to say. maybe the sun expands slowly first so we get three days of tribulation. Maybe as part of that process dark matter appears and blocks the suns light so we cannot see it expanding hence three days of darkness.

I suspect the sun exploding without warning would not happen without Divine intervention in which case the existence of God is proven.

+1

That is a perfectly fine answer, what I was looking for.

super_furry

Man, I really hope you're not planning on blowing up the sun just to prove a point!

Zombrex

super_furry wrote: »

Man, I really hope you're not planning on blowing up the sun just to prove a point!

no, don't be silly. Not the sun......

wolfsbane

Festus said:

Catholics don't believe in the rapture.

Yes, they do [emphasis mine]:

What’s the Catholic Position?

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

Point of fact "The Rapture" is a notion invented by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) and has no scripptural support.

That's the Pre-Tribulation view of the Rapture. The RCC and the historic Protestant view are the same - the Rapture follows the Tribulation.

_________________________________________________________________
1 Thessalonians 4:6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

Festus said:

Yes, they do [emphasis mine]:

What’s the Catholic Position?

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp


That's the Pre-Tribulation view of the Rapture. The RCC and the historic Protestant view are the same - the Rapture follows the Tribulation.

_________________________________________________________________
1 Thessalonians 4:6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Interesting. As you appear to be such an expert on Catholicism maybe you could present the official Catholic teaching on the rapture and not an excerpt from a webpage that discusses the protestant understanding.

As this part of the discussion is not really related to the OPs question perhaps it should have a thread of its own.

JimiTime

Festus wrote: »

Interesting. As you appear to be such an expert on Catholicism maybe you could present the official Catholic teaching on the rapture and not an excerpt from a webpage that discusses the protestant understanding.

As this part of the discussion is not really related to the OPs question perhaps it should have a thread of its own.

He linked and quoted a Catholic website ye spoon. The clue is in the title of the website. If you took your sectarian specs off you'd probably see better.

Festus

JimiTime wrote: »

He linked and quoted a Catholic website ye spoon. The clue is in the title of the website. If you took your sectarian specs off you'd probably see better.

Yes it is a Catholic website but the particular page is discussing a non-Catholic concept. Read the entire page ye spanner.

It opens with :

"Are you Pre, Mid, or Post? If you don’t know how to answer that question, you’re probably a Catholic. Most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals know that these words are shorthand for pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation. "

Zombrex

lads seriously I don't want to but if this Catholic vs Protestant thing continues I'm going to report to the mods, it is not the purpose of this thread particularly when name calling is introduced.

JimiTime

Festus wrote: »

Yes it is a Catholic website but the particular page is discussing a non-Catholic concept. Read the entire page ye spanner.

It opens with :

"Are you Pre, Mid, or Post? If you don’t know how to answer that question, you’re probably a Catholic. Most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals know that these words are shorthand for pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation. "

And Wolfsbane quoted the relevant bit! Spanner indeed.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

lads seriously I don't want to but if this Catholic vs Protestant thing continues I'm going to report to the mods, it is not the purpose of this thread particularly when name calling is introduced.

Feck off ye tool

Festus

JimiTime wrote: »

And Wolfsbane quoted the relevant bit! Spanner indeed.

Perhaps, but not official Catholic teaching. The Bible does indeed say that we will be caught up, dead first then the living, but says nothing to indicated that the Righteous only will be "Raptured away" leaving the sinners behind to suffer their fate, or whatever it is this Rapture concept entails.

Wolfsbane is trying to make out that Catholics believe in the Rapture. If this is true it must be part of official Catholic teaching.

Until someone can point out here or in the specific thread discussing the Rapture then officially Catholics do not believe in it.

JimiTime

Festus wrote: »

Perhaps, but not official Catholic teaching. The Bible does indeed say that we will be caught up, dead first then the living, but says nothing to indicated that the Righteous only will be "Raptured away" leaving the sinners behind to suffer their fate, or whatever it is this Rapture concept entails.

Wolfsbane is trying to make out that Catholics believe in the Rapture. If this is true it must be part of official Catholic teaching.

Until someone can point out here or in the specific thread discussing the Rapture then officially Catholics do not believe in it.

the website quoted sums it up perfectly. Simply put, the word Rapture is a term not used, but the concept is the same. The website is quite detailed about the whole thing if you decide to read it. I never use the term rapture myself, but I can accept that I believe in the concept.

Festus

JimiTime wrote: »

the website quoted sums it up perfectly. Simply put, the word Rapture is a term not used, but the concept is the same. The website is quite detailed about the whole thing if you decide to read it. I never use the term rapture myself, but I can accept that I believe in the concept.

So, in a nutshell, is "the rapture" the raising of the dead to be brought before God with the living to be judged? Or is it something different? This leads to the pre - mid - post - confusion.

Perhaps parousia or Second Coming would have been a better term for the OP rather than the Rapture. Maybe Judgement Day. Would save a lot of confusion and heartache.

PDN

Festus wrote: »

Perhaps, but not official Catholic teaching. The Bible does indeed say that we will be caught up, dead first then the living, but says nothing to indicated that the Righteous only will be "Raptured away" leaving the sinners behind to suffer their fate, or whatever it is this Rapture concept entails.

Wolfsbane is trying to make out that Catholics believe in the Rapture. If this is true it must be part of official Catholic teaching.

Until someone can point out here or in the specific thread discussing the Rapture then officially Catholics do not believe in it.

You are making the mistake of confusing a particular interpretation of the Rapture with the concept of the Rapture itself.

The concept of the Rapture is simply that at the Return of Christ those Christians who are still alive will be caught up (Latin - rapio) to meet him in the air, while those who are dead will be raised from the grave.

Just where that rapture occurs in the timeline of eschataological events is a subject of varied disagreement. So you have premillenial (before the Millenium), postmillenial (after the Millenium) and amillenial (there won't be a millenium) views. Then, among the premillenialists, you have further variations as to whether that Rapture will take place before, after, or in the middle of the Great Tribulation.

So the idea of the saved being secrely raptured away leaving sinners behind to suffer their fate is only one particular interpretation of the Rapture - albeit one popularised by the literary diarrhoea of the Left Behind novels in the United States.

So, a great many Christians reject the pretribulational premillenial secret Rapture of the Left Behind novels, but still hold to the literal truth that those alive at the point of Christ's Return will be caught up to meet with Him in the air.

Another poster mentioned that all Christians believe in the Rapture. This is not so. NT Wright, for instance, the Anglican Bishop of Durham and a prominent evangelical theologian, believes that the idea of being caught up to be with the Lord is a metaphor - using the idea of how the citizens of a city would go out to the city gates to welcome a royal visitor, and then accompanying him back into the city.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

Another poster mentioned that all Christians believe in the Rapture. This is not so. NT Wright, for instance, the Anglican Bishop of Durham and a prominent evangelical theologian, believes that the idea of being caught up to be with the Lord is a metaphor - using the idea of how the citizens of a city would go out to the city gates to welcome a royal visitor, and then accompanying him back into the city.

So what do they think happens at Armageddon to those who are Christs sheep?

Festus

PDN wrote: »

You are making the mistake of confusing a particular interpretation of the Rapture with the concept of the Rapture itself.

Quite right. So when Christians get together to discuss the rapture, what or which rapture are they talking about?
How does one Christian know that the Rapture he is discussing is the Rapture the other(s) understand.

PDN

Festus wrote: »

Quite right. So when Christians get together to discuss the rapture, what or which rapture are they talking about?
How does one Christian know that the Rapture he is discussing is the Rapture the other(s) understand.

If you were discussing this in an academic setting, then it would be clear enough. The Rapture is the concept of those who are alive at Christ's return being caught up to be with the Lord, all the other details are variations within that general concept.

If, however, people are in a group where they have shared beliefs then they might use the word to denote a more detailed scheme of things (just in the same way Catholics use words in a different way when talking 'inhouse').

Baggio1

ya spoon, ya spanner, - its a shoe,, its a slipper!!"!

ughh sometimes i really dispair withh all this in fighting i tell ya.. ..

look for me theres a series of things to happen all obviously linked to revelations and i have been watching a youtuber who FOR ME interperates the revelations incredibly well....no i aint giving any links am no theologian but feel somehow/somewhere theres a spirit of discernmant in me and well thats just the way it is.

revelations beast that is but was and is again = communism

false prophet = the false pope after Benedict has to flee from Rome during the coming revolution, and he is martyred in a foreighn land. this false pope/false prophet will be in league with Maitreya and will allow him to heal him of a wound - a false wound at that and convice the world religeons including many christians to follow Maitrya as miraculous healer and basically eventually - God.

Maitreya 666 Anti Christ - will have demonic powers, will be able to do mind control, will bring peace to the ww3 situation, ALL the worlds leaders and religeous ,leaders will then follow him. he will make it illegal to celebrate the mass (the sacrifice to be abolished), the micro chip will be his mark, all who take it will be dammed,

leopard/last king of the south in revs is president obama he is the last presidant of the USA before ww3 and marshall law are declared in USA
he will provoke (push against) the:

last king of the north - the premiere of Russia and the west ,usa, uk europe will LOSE the war with russia , china and the arab nations. Communism will rule from Rome, where they will hand over the vatican to false prophet and Maetreya

Babylon the great? western decedant society especially USA which has been given so much and been corrupted so badly,

7 names of blasphemy??.. the 7 main world religeons that wil all follow Maetreya when the time comes after his false miracles etc

3 and a half years they (AC and FP) will rule - untill God sends whats known as the "ball of redemption" the comet which appears twice - the second time to strike the earth and destroy sin and the anti christs reighn. Christ will return at that same time to oversee their destruction.St. Michael The Archangel will PERSONALLY take down whimpy Maetreya at Christs command

that same comet will apparantly for the 1st time soon be seen it will herald the "great warning" when every person in the world above the age of reason will see their life/soul as God see's them, they will be shown all their unconfessed sins and how they afflicted our Lord in his passion and crucifixion, also we will all be warned to not take the anti christs mark or look at his face or listen to his words.

after that will come the great miracle at garrabandal in spain and at other legit apparition sites around the world, and if mankind doesnt change then these chastisements will come to the world, begining with ww3, which has to happen coz Anti Christ cannot come out in the open till USA and the CatholiC Church have basicallly been taken down if yu will.

apparantly this scumbag will have a "day of decleration" and will talk about sharing, peace, justice bla bla but dont be foooled he's the AC altright and of course a total loser!

so there ya go guys thats what it all means to me if im wrong ill be glad!! ahah,,, sometime awful tells me that many of these things listed will happen very soon.

ciao' for now...night shifts suck!!

ps feel free to say/ask what you will but im tired DONT jump down my throat ok?!

wolfsbane

Baggio1 wrote: »

ya spoon, ya spanner, - its a shoe,, its a slipper!!"!

ughh sometimes i really dispair withh all this in fighting i tell ya.. ..

look for me theres a series of things to happen all obviously linked to revelations and i have been watching a youtuber who FOR ME interperates the revelations incredibly well....no i aint giving any links am no theologian but feel somehow/somewhere theres a spirit of discernmant in me and well thats just the way it is.

revelations beast that is but was and is again = communism

false prophet = the false pope after Benedict has to flee from Rome during the coming revolution, and he is martyred in a foreighn land. this false pope/false prophet will be in league with Maitreya and will allow him to heal him of a wound - a false wound at that and convice the world religeons including many christians to follow Maitrya as miraculous healer and basically eventually - God.

Maitreya 666 Anti Christ - will have demonic powers, will be able to do mind control, will bring peace to the ww3 situation, ALL the worlds leaders and religeous ,leaders will then follow him. he will make it illegal to celebrate the mass (the sacrifice to be abolished), the micro chip will be his mark, all who take it will be dammed,

leopard/last king of the south in revs is president obama he is the last presidant of the USA before ww3 and marshall law are declared in USA
he will provoke (push against) the:

last king of the north - the premiere of Russia and the west ,usa, uk europe will LOSE the war with russia , china and the arab nations. Communism will rule from Rome, where they will hand over the vatican to false prophet and Maetreya

Babylon the great? western decedant society especially USA which has been given so much and been corrupted so badly,

7 names of blasphemy??.. the 7 main world religeons that wil all follow Maetreya when the time comes after his false miracles etc

3 and a half years they (AC and FP) will rule - untill God sends whats known as the "ball of redemption" the comet which appears twice - the second time to strike the earth and destroy sin and the anti christs reighn. Christ will return at that same time to oversee their destruction.St. Michael The Archangel will PERSONALLY take down whimpy Maetreya at Christs command

that same comet will apparantly for the 1st time soon be seen it will herald the "great warning" when every person in the world above the age of reason will see their life/soul as God see's them, they will be shown all their unconfessed sins and how they afflicted our Lord in his passion and crucifixion, also we will all be warned to not take the anti christs mark or look at his face or listen to his words.

after that will come the great miracle at garrabandal in spain and at other legit apparition sites around the world, and if mankind doesnt change then these chastisements will come to the world, begining with ww3, which has to happen coz Anti Christ cannot come out in the open till USA and the CatholiC Church have basicallly been taken down if yu will.

apparantly this scumbag will have a "day of decleration" and will talk about sharing, peace, justice bla bla but dont be foooled he's the AC altright and of course a total loser!

so there ya go guys thats what it all means to me if im wrong ill be glad!! ahah,,, sometime awful tells me that many of these things listed will happen very soon.

ciao' for now...night shifts suck!!

ps feel free to say/ask what you will but im tired DONT jump down my throat ok?!

On the contrary, thank you for a detailed breakdown of the apocalypse as you see it. I don't agree with several aspects and do agree with others - not uncommon in a discussion of the End Times! Your presentation is quite like that of many of the Left-Behind folks - lots of detail on the meaning of various references in the prophetic Scriptures.

The danger will be when one of these turns out correct that some will assume all of it is so. But it must be remembered that many of the differing schools agree on several of the points, or at least allow for them - so any one of these turning up would validate all of the schools who hold it, rather than any one.

No, the best course is to wait prayerfully for the time these things are to be revealed - then we can see what the Scripture means clearly. Being wise for that comes only in knowing what the Scriptures say, even if we now don't fully understand its meaning. Then, we will.

If we make a lot of dogmatic statements now, when some/many of these turn out false, we only discredit what we say about the gospel.
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Daniel 12:8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.