RTÉ DTT Reception difficulties in parts of the south east.

The Cush

Pangea wrote: »

When is Saorsat rolling out?
I know a few areas here in Donegal that cant get any signal anaologue etc. So they are eager to get it, people in these areas are forced to purchase Sky to get national tv channels.

Q2 2011, if the satellite expected to carry the service, Eutelsat Ka-Sat, gets off the ground OK and into the correct orbit in late Dec.

Conor Hayes, RTÉ CFO

The board of RTE has recently approved a unique satellite based approach, developed by RTE Networks Limited, that will enable Irish public service channels to be made available free to air and unencrypted, for the first time, as a means of covering the last 2% of the population. We anticipate that the Saorsat satellite service will be available from the second quarter of 2011.

Pangea

The Cush wrote: »

Q2 2011, if the satellite expected to carry the service, Eutelsat Ka-Sat, gets off the ground OK and into the correct orbit in late Dec.

Thanks
Some of these questions probably sound daft but I thought id ask them anyways :pac: :
Is saorsat going to look the same as saorview, same epg etc.?
Is this in MPEG4 aswell?
Will areas not in the 2% be recieving saor sat as overspill or how does that work out?
edit: Just realised that a satellite will be needed , what satellies will people be expected to purchase and will a mpeg4 decoder be needed.

The Cush

Pangea wrote: »

Thanks
Some of these questions probably sound daft but I thought id ask them anyways :pac: :
Is saorsat going to look the same as saorview, same epg etc.?
Is this in MPEG4 aswell?
Will areas not in the 2% be recieving saor sat as overspill or how does that work out?
edit: Just realised that a satellite will be needed , what satellies will people be expected to purchase and will a mpeg4 decoder be needed.

RTÉ have been totally silent on Saorsat since they publically announced the project existed in a presentation to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications in mid July. They have not even confirmed tha name or orbital position of the satellite to deliver the service.

Any answers to your questions would be speculation until RTÉ decide we need to know.

Watty has speculated quiet a bit on his site as to how the service might operate, suggest you read his overview.

EDIT: What we do know from the presentation is that it will use a different frequency band and satellite position - Ka Band as opposed to Ku Band, 9 deg. E (speculated) as opposed to 28 deg. E - so a new LNB, receiver and smaller dish will be required (hybrid Saorsat/freesat dishes/receiver may become available in time). No Saorsat equipment is available yet.

Hi there, My mother was looking for a clear picture in her kitchen. She has a LG with dvb tuner. A couple of months ago she was enjoying perfect, and better than sky picture quality from Mount Leinster. One day the picture went but she still had sound. This is the same in my Aunts house and she has an roof Antenna.

Why do both of them have sound and no picture? The radio channels work perfect. The channels tune in no problem, there is some kind of picture but it's very dark. We live in Kildare near Carlow town. Could this be because of the CH45 issue with Wales?

If they had picture at anytime from mt leinster on dtt then they have the required mpeg4 tv as Mt Leinster never did mpeg 2.

Three rock did do mpeg 2 though but that must be 2 years ago or more.

Is there any possibility that you had been looking at analogue when you saw the perfect pictures?
Could you post details of the model number and make of the tv's in question-especially the model number.

Mr McBoatface

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi there, My mother was looking for a clear picture in her kitchen. She has a LG with dvb tuner. A couple of months ago she was enjoying perfect, and better than sky picture quality from Mount Leinster. One day the picture went but she still had sound. This is the same in my Aunts house and she has an roof Antenna.

Why do both of them have sound and no picture? The radio channels work perfect. The channels tune in no problem, there is some kind of picture but it's very dark. We live in Kildare near Carlow town. Could this be because of the CH45 issue with Wales?

Your problem isn't related to the CH45 interference issue. Picture and no sound means there is a problem with the TV. In your case I'd say one of the embedded signal flags used to identify the signal data streams was changed by RTE and your TV no longer recognised it, i believe some Panasonic TV have a simular problem.

Have you tried doing a factory reset and rescanning the channels ? If the region code on the TV is UK you may need to change the region code to Ireland (if available) or France or Solvenia. A firmware update may be available for the TV which could also fix the problem , what is the exact model of the TV ?

I did a factory reset and it worked! I checked before I reset and it was set for Ireland.

The picture quality is better than on sky, but up close I do notice that they might have it more compressed than they should have?

Anyway my mother is thrilled she doesn't have to look at snow!

Thanks lads

Mr McBoatface

Deleted User wrote: »

I did a factory reset and it worked! I checked before I reset and it was set for Ireland.

The picture quality is better than on sky, but up close I do notice that they might have it more compressed than they should have?

Anyway my mother is thrilled she doesn't have to look at snow!

Thanks lads

Your welcome, a good guess on my part

RTE2 will have better picture quality as it runs at a higher resolution that the others (expect the HD test channel of course). The PQ may improve when the second mux is a available which will provided more space for extra channels and maybe higher bit-rates on the existing ones. The 2nd mux won't be on until the full service is launched next year so we'll have to wait to see if I'm right on that one.

PS - For future reference can you please let us know what model the TV is, just in case somebody else has the same problem.

Thanks

jobyrne30

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Your welcome, a good guess on my part

RTE2 will have better picture quality as it runs at a higher resolution that the others (expect the HD test channel of course). The PQ may improve when the second mux is a available which will provided more space for extra channels and maybe higher bit-rates on the existing ones. The 2nd mux won't be on until the full service is launched next year so we'll have to wait to see if I'm right on that one.

PS - For future reference can you please let us know what model the TV is, just in case somebody else has the same problem.

Thanks

The Model of the T.V is M227WDP it's an LG

Mr McBoatface

Deleted User wrote: »

The Model of the T.V is M227WDP it's an LG

Thanks ,

RTENL made some more changes today just a few hours after you done the factory reset so you might have to full rescan or reset again.

jobyrne30

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Thanks ,

RTENL made some more changes today just a few hours after you done the factory reset so you might have to full rescan or reset again.

Yep, did it. After reset it automatically did a retune.

I wasn't impressed with rtenl's quality, again there is a noticeable amount of compression artefacts. I hope that it improves.

TV companies sometimes fail to realise that real HD is more than just 1920-1080. Too much compression means the picture quality suffers greatly.

The BBC when they launched their HD service on Astra were highly criticized with the way they compressed the picture. Now it's very good. Not blu ray good of course!

I find RTE two quality to be great,RTE1 and tv3 to be terrible to be honest and RTENL hd to be brilliant.
Thats with a strong signal.

RTE1 quality is worse than BBC1 Sd from presely imho.

Having itv1 hd spoils you if you watch that as does the hd quality of sky channels.
I'm not overly impressed with BBC1 hd quality either.
Only marginally better than SD

Gerry Wicklow

Great to watch the formula one in HD on BBC1 Satellite all the way from Brazil but we can't manage anything useful from Donnybrook.

Jpmarn

As Far as I know Formula 1 is not in true HD. The majority of the programmes on BBC One HD are upscaled SD.

elsie1b

Jpmarn wrote: »

As Far as I know Formula 1 is not in true HD. The majority of the programmes on BBC One HD are upscaled SD.

When I was watching ,the presenter welcomed viewers watching Formula 1 in HD on BBC 1 HD.

Gerry Wicklow

Chances are that some of it was upscaled, especially the in-car stuff. However I am reasonably confident that the BBC's own content was HD judging by the number of blackheads and stray hairs that were easy to see during some interviews.
Anyway we are well off topic and forum, so enough said.:o

Sam the Aerialman

There was some previous commentary about an aerial cylinder being omni-directional.
Thought you might actually like a look inside one during installation.

Sam the Aerialman

And to follow on.

bjp1967

Is there at problem with Mt Leinster reception this weekend, there is constant break up on all channels, at present all channels are DTT channels are gone, had no issues up to now, rescanned my philips tv but no joy.

location: 10 miles south of kilkenny city, can almost see mt leinster from house.

bjp1967

Update:

just did a rescan and no digital channels found at all only the 4 analog channels, at least before the 17 digital channels were found

Murtinho

im getting nothing either, i think it was working last night, no signal today, did a rescan and nothing. Im in Wexford town. Was working fine past few weeks after a dodgy start.

daibhid

Last week all channels were off in the Arklow area. When they returned RTE 2 had sound only with a temporary RTE 2 channel with an expiry date shown April 2011. I am using a SAGEM PICNIC BOX on what I think is channel 21. Anyone know why RTE 2 has sound on channel only.

fat-tony

Because your Picnic box does not support HD (which is required on Saorview).

watty

daibhid wrote: »

Last week all channels were off in the Arklow area. When they returned RTE 2 had sound only with a temporary RTE 2 channel with an expiry date shown April 2011. I am using a SAGEM PICNIC BOX on what I think is channel 21. Anyone know why RTE 2 has sound on channel only.

http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/the-black-list/

and

http://www.saortv.info/news/

The Picnic was specially made for a Sky pay DTT service in UK. When Sky never got permission to launch, those boxes should have been recycled, not sold/dumped on the market. Sky was very arrogant ordering them before service approval.

They are poor quality and it was known over two years ago that such boxes are not compatible.

If the box was explicity sold for Irish use you are entitled to a refund or replacement by law.
http://www.techtir.ie/blog/cinocat4/no-dtt-get-money-back

200motels

I have no signal here all day.

warlikedave

mount leinster has gone AWOL on me again in the last day and its still gone

Fr0g

I can confirm that Mt. Leinster is working. Receiving DTT in Wexford town

lucernarian

Fr0g wrote: »

I can confirm that Mt. Leinster is working. Receiving DTT in Wexford town

On what channel (frequency) are you receiving it?

Fr0g

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

On what channel (frequency) are you receiving it?

I'm fairly sure it's on ch. 45 but would have to retune to make sure.

warlikedave

looks like its co-channel interferrence

grayface

Evening all, I would be pleased if one could tell me, if one living in Dingle Co.Kerry. would be able to receive RTE DTT channels.I can get them in East Cork, but would like to know,on behalf of an old aged couple, who live in Dingle.
Cheers and thanks in advance for any info given.
grayface

haymur

Does anyone know of a way of feeding analog and digital signal into single RF socket on a TV so both tuners can have a feed. I have UPC DVR which has a analog feed out of it which I feed upstairs to a Philips 32LED . It works very well when a attic aerial is put in for all DTT local stations but when you combine it with UPC analog lead on a splitter it stops working on digital. UPC say it wont work because of a conflict of signals
Any suggestions welcome

watty

yes. The UPC digital and modem signals use the same band. Your only possible UPC analogue is on VHF using a VHF-UHF diplexer to combine the two.

UPC will likely stop analogue eventually using 2012 as an excuse to have more channels for Digital and Modem.

eoinf

Anyone having problems getting channels in west dublin? A rescan on the tv didnt find anything. Went in the middle of the bloody lotto.

haymur

Thanks for the tip. I just wanted a stopgap fix for a good digital reception. I have a HumaxHD DVR for sat stations and I am waiting for a DTT DVR with Mpeg4 to come on the market at a good price so I can record Saorview. RTE networks are a bit slow with their approval of units

The Cush

haymur wrote: »

RTE networks are a bit slow with their approval of units

Not RTÉ's fault, blame the manufacturers.

The manufacturers must submit their products for compliance testing to Teracom Sweden with the appropriate fee, if the unit passes the testing process it can then be licenced by RTÉ to carry the Saorview logo.

RTÉ has appointed Teracom AB to conduct receiver compliance testing for SAORVIEW receivers, both STBs and iDTVs. Those receivers which pass the tests thereby meeting the SAORVIEW specification will be eligible to be licensed to use the “SAORVIEW” logo, which will confirm to consumers that the receiver is SAORVIEW compliant.

Manufacturers/distributors wishing to use the SAORVIEW logo should contact Teracom (irdtest@teracom.se) to arrange testing. When a receiver passes the tests, it will then be eligible to be licensed by RTÉ to carry the SAORVIEW logo.

Current SAORVIEW approved receivers:
Walker Technology Products Ltd
Walker WP10DTP & WP11DTP set top box receivers
Walker WPxx (19”-46”) MP4 range of iDTV sets.

http://www.rtenl.ie/saorview.htm

marclt

The Cush wrote: »

Not RTÉ's fault, blame the manufacturers.

The manufacturers must submit their products for compliance testing to Teracom Sweden with the appropriate fee, if the unit passes the testing process it can then be licenced by RTÉ to carry the Saorview logo.

Perhaps the lack of enthusiasm by the manufacturers means they don't think the Irish market is big enough to worry about just yet... ???

STB

marclt wrote: »

Perhaps the lack of enthusiasm by the manufacturers means they don't think the Irish market is big enough to worry about just yet... ???

Yes. Its not like the UK with a 66m population to concentrate minds.

The biggest problem is not certification but basic compliance. That means that the manufacturers need to profile Ireland in the country spec according to the minimum spec published in 2008. Remember all the major manufacturers actually have a pan european range and the various specs are adhered to by the setup options (i.e. Country profiling).

2011 and we have major manufacturers like Phillips with the right hardware and the wrong software for Ireland. They think we use MHP. We dont. They are on the CEDA group!

Sony can get it right, LG have it right, Samsung have it right. Neither LG or Samsung are on CEDA.

Phillips and Panasonic havent got it right. Why?

Sony by all accounts have a TV in for certification with Terracom, the X or Z range (cant remember).

watty

marclt wrote: »

Perhaps the lack of enthusiasm by the manufacturers means they don't think the Irish market is big enough to worry about just yet... ???

It's only €40M to €250M in TV sales a year.

Sky's Irish revenue is heading for 150M a year, the VAT (now 20% = €30M?) goes to UK.

UK market about €1B to €6B in TV sales a year.

The best hope for choice and good price may thus be "Freeview HD" models. The "Freeview HD" market is really embryonic yet and won't be full potential till 2012/2013, as trail broadcasts only started in late 2009 and many areas don't even have signal yet.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

The best hope for choice and good price may thus be "Freeview HD" models. The "Freeview HD" market is really embryonic yet and won't be full potential till 2012/2013, as trail broadcasts only started in late 2009 and many areas don't even have signal yet.

The FreeviewHD spec is not fully compatible with Saorview. It has incorrect handling of teletext and LCNs. It does most things but the D book is not a published document and its contents are interpreted by manufacturers in their own wonderful way. Panasonic and Philips are noted in their firmware problems. It would not be too hard to get products to get certified for both, surely.

Saorview certification is needed, and even self-certification would work for companies that had at least certified one product.

When we need IT jobs here why are we getting the Swedes to do this testing?

watty

I know that. But if there is no suitable Saorview product it's the next best thing. Some "Freeview HD" will be better than others and in time Manufacturers may ensure better Irish compatibility. It's much better than TNT-HD.

One would assume Teracom was chosen in a hurry when it looked like Boxer was taking a licence. I don't beleive there is any existing facility in Ireland that is qualfied or experienced to do this.

Self certification is absolutely a non-starter for this kind of product. You read about the Triax 537?

This is not IT but Communications Engineering and embedded systems. The only people that ever did training in that in These Islands used to be BBC at Woodnorton and in some areas The pre-BT British Post Office (one of whose Engineers created a Computer at Blechley Park). Now maybe Netherlands, France and Germany has that sort of training and resources. Not UK or Ireland (BBC was forced to sell of Transmitter Network, Woodnorton and both BT and BBC research are a pale shadow of 1970s).

A lot of the top RTE NL engineers were BBC trained. Broadcasters all over the world used to send people on courses at Woodnorton. Though probably the Germans didn't need to send anyone.

IT people would be useless.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

IT people would be useless.

No, that is not correct. Politicians are useless.

IT people are of limited use - or at least some of them are. Some are a waste of space, but that applies to most professions/jobs. Testing boxes is just a case of following test procedures - not particularly taxing of the old grey matter. Particularly if the test equipment is any good.

watty

Regular IT people are OK for IT. But no use for embedded systems, Comms, Telecoms etc.

You've done Digital receiver compliance testing then?

No. It's not as simple as having fancy test gear, Nordig 2.2 and the RTE variations and MHEG5 1.6 UK broadcast profile. You have to interpret the specifications and design tests. Build test data streams, correct and suitably broken ones. You need experience to interpret what the test gear is saying on some tests.

It's "interesting" even verifying the test data is what you think it is. I doubt RTE NL could do it with a high degree of assurance.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

Self certification is absolutely a non-starter for this kind of product. You read about the Triax 537?

Triax have not got any products certified, so they would not qualify for self-certification under my rules. Can you imagine the likes of Sony or Samsung certifying 20 or thirty models every year? It will not happen.

I would prefer self-certification, rather than the Panasonic situation where they tell their Irish customers to go and get stuffed. If they were to self-certify, they would be liable for any failings. But first, they would have to get at least one product certified.

watty

Different boxes and screen sizes with same hardware and software should be one test for certification. i.e. A LG 32LD450 is same as a LG 42LD450. I don't know if they do this.

Sony are lunatics if they have 30 models a year other than simple variations of screen size or colour of cabinet.

Self certification is crazy talk. You just get junk. if it's not independently tested how do you prove their failings? What happens if after 3 years RTE, TG4, TV3, Oireachtas or Film channel use a feature hitherto unused and it doesn't work on all Sony sets or triax Boxes?

For this kind of product you absolutely can't have self certification.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

For this kind of product you absolutely can't have self certification.

Well, we have non-certification at the moment. Not much use to the general public, particularly when Tesco are putting up helpful signs saying 'Freeview not available here' (whatever Freeview is).

If there was a legal requirement to be certified, like the French did, that would be useful. But at least self-certification would give a legal background to non-performance in a Sale of Goods case.

At the present time, there is nothing to support the purchaser.

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, we have non-certification at the moment. Not much use to the general public, particularly when Tesco are putting up helpful signs saying 'Freeview not available here' (whatever Freeview is).

If there was a legal requirement to be certified, like the French did, that would be useful. But at least self-certification would give a legal background to non-performance in a Sale of Goods case.

At the present time, there is nothing to support the purchaser.

There is a Certification scheme. It's just expensive and not mandatory.

self-certification would give a legal background to non-performance in a Sale of Goods case
How? It's meaningless in this kind of product.

On Sale of Goods it's Simple. Apart from certification you can say a TV or Set box is compatible with Irish Digital TV if it has:
Video
MPEG4 H.264 L3 and L4
Setbox outlets: HD on HDMI with HDCP support and SD, and down scaled HD on SCART
TV inputs, at least one each of: RF, HDMI with HDCP and SCART
Audio
MP2 and HE-AAC audio (DTS, AC3/DD not required)
RF
DVB-T (DVB-T2 is permitted)
UHF (there is a requirement in Spec for VHF, but utilisation of this seems vanishingly unlikely, so a Maker can likely "get off" on this one unless VHF is deployed).
Middleware
MHEG5 UK 1.06 Broadcast Profile is mandatory

Claiming you have these, you can claim your TV or Set is Irish Digital Compatible. It won't do OTA updates, as RTE NL will only do these for Certified sets. It might not pass Certification.

You can't have two schemes. That way lies madness. But on basis of what RTE and RTE NL has published:
1) You can only claim Saorview Compatibility if certified as result of passing tests by authorised independent test house. RTE could give contract to someone else eventually. We don't know terms of Contract with Teracom, but the price isn't extortionately high for this kind of Certification in Scandinavia. A bit high maybe.

2) You can claim to be "Irish Digital Compatible" with out certification. If you have read the Nordig 2.2 and RTE NL's spec and believe your box or TV meets the requirements, the most basic of which are above as an expansion of RTE's own advice to purchasers:

Key elements of the receiver specification include the following:

1. The receiver needs to be capable of decoding both Standard Definition (SD) and High Definition (HD) MPEG 4 signals. This is important as RTÉ is planning to replace its current SD RTÉ Two service with an RTÉ Two HD service on SAORVIEW. More HD services are likely to follow in the future.

2. The receiver needs to have MHEG5 middleware to decode RTÉ’s proposed new Digital Aertel Service and other possible interactive services.

via http://www.rte.ie/saorview/receiving.html

On such a product with such complexity there can be no "self certification" for "Saorview". However nothing is stopping people who believe they are compatible in all important aspects (which are suggested by RTE above) claiming "Irish Digital TV compatibility".

But
Lets say a non PVR Setbox retails at €70 in Tesco with very little margin and certification is €20,000. Then selling only 1,000 adds €20 to price. The walker boxes are amazingly about €30 more expensive than similar non-certified Vestel made boxes. Sell 20,000 and the extra cost is 1 Euro.

TV (or real HDD dual Tuner PVR) on average is Retail €400. Selling only 1,000 adds €20 to price. Sell 20,000 and the extra cost is 1 Euro. Note that in any sane scenario different screen sizes if proven to be same HW and SW, ought to be only one certification.

Certification is obviously a biggest issue for very basic boxes. Most of these come from either Vestel or 3 to 5 Asian producers. Perhaps the Manufacturers should certify the un-badged box. That would only happen if certification is mandatory for Irish Market. (Government has been USELESS on DTT over the last 12 years).

For the TVs averaged over screen size and true HDD dual tuner PVRs, the certification is expensive, but a possible cost.

It's likely the market for set-boxes is a lot more than 500,000 over the next 3 years if people with UPC and Sky buy boxes for 2nd and 3rd TV sets.

The Annual TV market I think is naturally 120,000 to 200,000 units a year. But that can rise due to ASO or DSO provoking people to buy new TVs, or HD, 3D or Olympics provoking folk to buy new tvs.

It's almost criminal that today the shops are full of incompatible new TVs. If the TV doesn't do the minimum above it's not at all compatible. If it doesn't do Video + Audio via aerial after ASO, it's not any longer a TV, but a video Monitor.

Sam Russell

I agree with all you say, but certification is a total failure with only one of the lesser manufacturers going for it. Therefore, it might as well not exist.

By going for a Swedish testing house, the costs are huge, and logistics will increase those costs. Any small manufacturer could not sustain that type of regime, particularly for STBs. The price point of €50 needs to be the target, but with a €20,000 entry cost, it would require substantial sales into an unproved market. Not for the feint-hearted.

It would have been possible to set up an Irish test house at a reasonable cost. I am sure you would have been interested in helping to set one up. I do not suppose you were approached.

Why has everything about this DTT been bungled, apart from the actual roll out? Why all the secrecy?

watty

I'd have had to charge more than Teracom and also I'd have to hire foreign Test Engineers. Also it would not have any international reputation. You can only use an established test house or the Manufacturers won't trust it.

There so far has been almost zero Government investment, yet they hope to "reap" the bounty of the Digital Dividend. Most of the Bungling has been due to Government policy in insisting on a Pay TV partner.

The Certification isn't looking good at the minute. But we have not had Full Launch, nor start of any Public publicity at all yet. (Coming End February or Start of March).

There is estimate of 20,000 Homes for Saorsat. The extra cost compared to Aerial should be subsidized if RTENL says you can't get a signal, as it's a policy decision. So Dish and Ka Band LNB paid for but not install or box, but only in official no-signal areas. (as many people need aerial install and box for DTT. The DTT service is planned assuming almost everyone uses outdoor aerial. That's RTENL's recommendation).

There is estimate of maybe 100,000 to 200,000 homes ought to get an ASO subsidy.
See http://www.saortv.info/2010/12/08/grants-for-set-box/ Obviously a Subsidy of €1.5M too low for 100,000 homes, that's only €15 each!

The new Government should tender for 5 suppliers (actual real ones, not 5 companies rebadging the same Vestel box) to supply box in exchange for ASO subsidy Cert, the Distributor to get €50 redemption and the Maker to get the €20,000 Certification test charge paid by Government. These boxes then can be sold Retail for no more than €60 with Saorview Certification.
Cost to Government = €100,000 + €50 per box cert redeemed, which could be 100,000 to 200,000 x 50 = €5M to €10M, thus certification is 5% to 2.5% of cost to Government of ASO subsidy for Welfare recipients and makes more than 5 models of Entry Level box available.

The approval and payment for Certification and the five models of boxes should go on Market now, but only exchange of "welfare tickets" (only one per address no matter how many people on Welfare at address) for those setboxes during Q3 2012, to minimise number resold.

haymur

How long do you think it will be before I can buy a DTT box with a built in DVR and what price it might be. I hope it will have a 7/8 day EPG so it will record single or weekly programmes