WW1 to end on Sunday for Germany

Snickers Man

depaly wrote: »

Del mentioned the 'War Guilt Clause' in his last
contribution - as if I had been referring to it.

I had never heard of it!!!!!!

Do yourself a favour.

Maybe you hadn't heard it described thus, but it's what this entire thread is about.

The fact that Germany was required by Treaty to pay collossal sums to the victorious powers on the spurious grounds that they (and their Allies) were entirely responsible.

depaly

Snickers Man wrote: »

Do yourself a favour.

Maybe you hadn't heard it described thus, but it's what this entire thread is about.

The fact that Germany was required by Treaty to pay collossal sums to the victorious powers on the spurious grounds that they (and their Allies) were entirely responsible.

This nitpicking is not doing your case any
justice!!!!

When I entered the thread the 'talk' was of
reparations and war guilt. Easy enough
concepts to understand.
You don't have to have heard of the 'War
Guilt Clause' per se, to have an opinion!!!

In fact, I see from the Wikipedia entry
you so helpfully provided, that it wasn't even
known as the 'War Guilt Clause' at the time!!!

I find these extracts from the entry very
revealing:-

'They had Germany sign the war guilt clause in exchange for acknowledging that Germany could never repay the whole amount of damage it did in the war.[1] Article 232 also stated that the Allies would only seek reparations for specific civilian damages inflicted by Germany.[2]'

'The claim that Article 231 implies "war guilt" was the work of various German politicians and apologists who misinterpreted Article 231 as saying that, as a way of gaining international sympathy.[3]'

And after all the postings back and forth, it's still
'spurious' to assign responsibility to Germany!!!!!
I'ts head in the sand time, methinks!!!

Germany was 'entirely' responsible for invading Luxembourg,
Belgium and France. Austria-Hungary was 'entirely'
responsible for attacking Serbia.

Many other 'actions' from all sides occured during the
course of the war, but do you not allow that Germany
and Austria were the clear aggressors?????

FiSe

depaly wrote: »

Germany was 'entirely' responsible for invading Luxembourg,
Belgium and France. Austria-Hungary was 'entirely'
responsible for attacking Serbia.

Many other 'actions' from all sides occured during the
course of the war, but do you not allow that Germany
and Austria were the clear aggressors?????

Wasn't the Russians who marched into Austria-Hungarian territory?
And Italy wasn't them who declared war on the A-H to gain some of their territory?
All this talk about who did what and who's guilty and who's not is, well, pointless as leaders and general public in most of the larger countries were thirsty for war. Everybody knew that war is coming, but nobody knew when. When the war finally broke out, it was welcomed and celebrated. What happened afterwards is another story.

depaly

FiSe wrote: »

Wasn't the Russians who marched into Austria-Hungarian territory?
And Italy wasn't them who declared war on the A-H to gain some of their territory?
All this talk about who did what and who's guilty and who's not is, well, pointless as leaders and general public in most of the larger countries were thirsty for war. Everybody knew that war is coming, but nobody knew when. When the war finally broke out, it was welcomed and celebrated. What happened afterwards is another story.

I can go along with you, to a certain extent.
My last point was about who started the war.

I think it was East Prussia that the Russians
first attacked.
The Russians have a lot to answer for in both
World Wars - not least because they supported
the Germans in both!!!
It could be argued, however, that the attack was
pre-emptive. The point that Germany would attack
Russia, once France was 'knocked out', has been
made a number of times on this thread.

This idea that everyone was looking forward to
a 'jolly good adventure' has been overplayed,
I feel. It's one of many cliches and broadly
accepted myths.
Like the 'War Guilt' idea, which was a German
invention!!!
Like the reasoning that the Reparations caused
the Second World War!!!!
Like the enormous numbers killed in the Dresden
bombing - which have only recently been debunked.
( Not to minimize the actual suffering of said
city )
A few films of crowds cheering the departing
soldiers are hardly conclusive proof of a
widespread 'welcome' for the war.
Although there were many who undoubtedly did.

Austria and Germany attacked first.
Germany, in particular, was very keen.
With it's huge army and navy, it felt confident.
The bottom line is:- you start a war, you pay
a price.
In money, blood, defeat and damnation.
Not always, but for the most part!!!!
From Xerxes, Julius Caesar and Napoleon to
General Galtieri, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden
and George Bush - starting a war has led to
much suffering, unforseen events and sometimes
personal destruction.
No one seems to learn from history!!!!!!!!!

FiSe

I don't think that Russia supported Germany in neither of the world wars. In the WWI Russian Czar made it clear from the beginning that he will stand side by side with Serbia, France and England. And if that means to fight his German cousin, so be it.

During the WW2 Soviet Union did allow German army to develop and test some of the equipment on her territory, away from the view of the allies. True.
The question is, what the Commies got out of it. I don't think that Germans would do whatever they want without careful observation from the side of Soviet comrades.
Soviet Union and German Reich done what suited them the best at any given time. They have 'supported' each other as long as both sides had some profit from the 'alliance'.

depaly

FiSe wrote: »

I don't think that Russia supported Germany in neither of the world wars. In the WWI Russian Czar made it clear from the beginning that he will stand side by side with Serbia, France and England. And if that means to fight his German cousin, so be it.

During the WW2 Soviet Union did allow German army to develop and test some of the equipment on her territory, away from the view of the allies. True.
The question is, what the Commies got out of it. I don't think that Germans would do whatever they want without careful observation from the side of Soviet comrades.
Soviet Union and German Reich done what suited them the best at any given time. They have 'supported' each other as long as both sides had some profit from the 'alliance'.

You are right in that any deals were in their
mutual national interests.

I referred to the Brest Litovsk treaty of 1918,
were a number of mutually beneficial side deals
were done. Russia's previous alliances forgotten.
Germany then thought that they could win the
war, with just the Western Front to apply
themselves to. Wrong again!!!!

I also referred to the non aggression pact
signed in 1939.
Stalin was willing to give Hitler carte blanche
in Central Europe and Poland - so that he could get
his hands on Finland, the Baltic States and a
chunk of Poland.
A grubby deal, indeed.
But, of course, Hitler had other ideas!!!!!

del_c

Imagine Europe in 1914 as a roughish pub.

Germany, Austria and Italy are standing together in the middle of a pub when Serbia bumps into Austria and spills Austria's pint. Austria demands Serbia buy it a complete new suit because there are splashes on its trouser leg. Germany expresses its support for Austria's point of view. Britain recommends that everyone calm down a bit. Serbia points out that it can't afford a whole suit, but offers to pay for the cleaning of Austria's trousers. Russia and Serbia look at Austria. Austria asks Serbia who it's looking at. Russia suggests that Austria should leave its little brother alone.

Austria inquires as to whose army will assist Russia in compelling it to do so. Germany appeals to Britain that France has been looking at it, and that this is sufficiently out of order that Britain should not intervene. Britain replies that France can look at who it wants to, that Britain is looking at Germany too, and what is Germany going to do about it? Germany tells Russia to stop looking at Austria, or Germany will render Russia incapable of such action. Britain and France ask Germany whether it's looking at Belgium. Turkey and Germany go off into a corner and whisper. When they come back, Turkey makes a show of not looking at anyone.

Germany rolls up its sleeves, looks at France, and punches Belgium. France and Britain punch Germany. Austria punches Russia. Germany punches Britain and France with one hand and Russia with the other. Russia throws a punch at Germany, but misses and nearly falls over. Japan calls over from the other side of the room that it's on Britain's side, but stays there. Italy surprises everyone by punching Austria. Australia punches Turkey, and gets punched back. There are no hard feelings because Britain made Australia do it.

France gets thrown through a plate glass window, but gets back up and carries on fighting. Russia gets thrown through another one, gets knocked out, suffers brain damage, and wakes up with a complete personality change. Italy throws a punch at Austria and misses, but Austria falls over anyway. Italy raises both fists in the air and runs round the room chanting.

America waits till Germany is about to fall over from sustained punching from Britain and France, then walks over and smashes it with a barstool, then pretends it won the fight all by itself. By now all the chairs are broken and the big mirror over the bar is shattered. Britain, France and America agree that Germany threw the first punch, so the whole thing is Germany's fault .

While Germany is still unconscious, they go through its pockets, steal its wallet, and buy drinks for all their friends.

depaly

del_c wrote: »

Imagine Europe in 1914 as a roughish pub.

Germany, Austria and Italy are standing together in the middle of a pub when Serbia bumps into Austria and spills Austria's pint. Austria demands Serbia buy it a complete new suit because there are splashes on its trouser leg. Germany expresses its support for Austria's point of view. Britain recommends that everyone calm down a bit. Serbia points out that it can't afford a whole suit, but offers to pay for the cleaning of Austria's trousers. Russia and Serbia look at Austria. Austria asks Serbia who it's looking at. Russia suggests that Austria should leave its little brother alone.

Austria inquires as to whose army will assist Russia in compelling it to do so. Germany appeals to Britain that France has been looking at it, and that this is sufficiently out of order that Britain should not intervene. Britain replies that France can look at who it wants to, that Britain is looking at Germany too, and what is Germany going to do about it? Germany tells Russia to stop looking at Austria, or Germany will render Russia incapable of such action. Britain and France ask Germany whether it's looking at Belgium. Turkey and Germany go off into a corner and whisper. When they come back, Turkey makes a show of not looking at anyone.

Germany rolls up its sleeves, looks at France, and punches Belgium. France and Britain punch Germany. Austria punches Russia. Germany punches Britain and France with one hand and Russia with the other. Russia throws a punch at Germany, but misses and nearly falls over. Japan calls over from the other side of the room that it's on Britain's side, but stays there. Italy surprises everyone by punching Austria. Australia punches Turkey, and gets punched back. There are no hard feelings because Britain made Australia do it.

France gets thrown through a plate glass window, but gets back up and carries on fighting. Russia gets thrown through another one, gets knocked out, suffers brain damage, and wakes up with a complete personality change. Italy throws a punch at Austria and misses, but Austria falls over anyway. Italy raises both fists in the air and runs round the room chanting.

America waits till Germany is about to fall over from sustained punching from Britain and France, then walks over and smashes it with a barstool, then pretends it won the fight all by itself. By now all the chairs are broken and the big mirror over the bar is shattered. Britain, France and America agree that Germany threw the first punch, so the whole thing is Germany's fault .

While Germany is still unconscious, they go through its pockets, steal its wallet, and buy drinks for all their friends.

Very amusing!!!!
Who knew the Germans had such a great sense
of humour???!!!!
What is it's actual source???
Joseph Goebells????!!!!

arnhem44

del_c wrote: »

Imagine Europe in 1914 as a roughish pub.

Germany, Austria and Italy are standing together in the middle of a pub when Serbia bumps into Austria and spills Austria's pint. Austria demands Serbia buy it a complete new suit because there are splashes on its trouser leg. Germany expresses its support for Austria's point of view. Britain recommends that everyone calm down a bit. Serbia points out that it can't afford a whole suit, but offers to pay for the cleaning of Austria's trousers. Russia and Serbia look at Austria. Austria asks Serbia who it's looking at. Russia suggests that Austria should leave its little brother alone.

Austria inquires as to whose army will assist Russia in compelling it to do so. Germany appeals to Britain that France has been looking at it, and that this is sufficiently out of order that Britain should not intervene. Britain replies that France can look at who it wants to, that Britain is looking at Germany too, and what is Germany going to do about it? Germany tells Russia to stop looking at Austria, or Germany will render Russia incapable of such action. Britain and France ask Germany whether it's looking at Belgium. Turkey and Germany go off into a corner and whisper. When they come back, Turkey makes a show of not looking at anyone.

Germany rolls up its sleeves, looks at France, and punches Belgium. France and Britain punch Germany. Austria punches Russia. Germany punches Britain and France with one hand and Russia with the other. Russia throws a punch at Germany, but misses and nearly falls over. Japan calls over from the other side of the room that it's on Britain's side, but stays there. Italy surprises everyone by punching Austria. Australia punches Turkey, and gets punched back. There are no hard feelings because Britain made Australia do it.

France gets thrown through a plate glass window, but gets back up and carries on fighting. Russia gets thrown through another one, gets knocked out, suffers brain damage, and wakes up with a complete personality change. Italy throws a punch at Austria and misses, but Austria falls over anyway. Italy raises both fists in the air and runs round the room chanting.

America waits till Germany is about to fall over from sustained punching from Britain and France, then walks over and smashes it with a barstool, then pretends it won the fight all by itself. By now all the chairs are broken and the big mirror over the bar is shattered. Britain, France and America agree that Germany threw the first punch, so the whole thing is Germany's fault .

While Germany is still unconscious, they go through its pockets, steal its wallet, and buy drinks for all their friends.

An interesting way of putting it,I was just wondering were all the other countries involved standing outside the pub when the fight broke out?:rolleyes:

Snickers Man

arnhem44 wrote: »

An interesting way of putting it,I was just wondering were all the other countries involved standing outside the pub when the fight broke out?:rolleyes:

What other countries?

I think he's got most of the combatants there. Maybe he could have included Bulgaria who came in against the Allies in 1916, for what reason I know not.

But everybody else was just a colony, or a dominion, of one of the major powers at the time.

arnhem44

Merely a light hearted response.There was many other countries who supplied men to fight on the allied side during the war if it was even only a symbolic gesture to the bigger nations,Portugal being one,Brazil another even Siam

depaly

Snickers Man wrote: »

What other countries?

I think he's got most of the combatants there. Maybe he could have included Bulgaria who came in against the Allies in 1916, for what reason I know not.

But everybody else was just a colony, or a dominion, of one of the major powers at the time.

Very small contingents, and not very effective,
but they did participate on the Allied side,
or at least severed diplomatic relations.....

Albania, Andorra, Bolivia, Brazil, China,
Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovak Legions, Ecuador,
Greece, Guatemala, Honduras, Liberia, Montenegro,
Nicaragua, Panama, Peru, Portugal, Romania,
San Marino, Serbia, Siam and Uruguay.

Not many colonies, there!!!!
A lot of countries seem to have opposed the
Central Powers!!!!

At that time, the United Kingdom of Great Britain
and Ireland also included the entire island of Ireland.
As you know.
So we were included, though not mentioned....
Even though we were not a 'colony'!!!!

Looking up some dates, it's amusing to note
that Romania declared war on Germany on the
10th of November 1918!!!!!!

Snickers Man

Talk about splitting hairs!!
Let's group these "countries" geographically to get a clearer picture.

depaly wrote: »

Albania,
Greece,
Montenegro,
Romania,
Serbia,

Notwithstanding the fact that Serbia HAS been mentioned in the bar-room analogy, the participation of all these countries had far more to do with existing inter-Balkan rivalry than any concern at the actions of the Germans in Belgium.

Greece is an interesting case in point. Its people, and its politicians, were hopelessly divided on the subject of the war, the prime minister being pro-Allied while the King was a brother of the Kaiser.

The Allies forced the issue by telling Greece they were moving on to her territory, whether she liked it or not (shades of the German 'right of passage' through Belgium perhaps?) to use the island of Lemnos as a base to attack Gallipoli. When the Greeks who didn't want to get drawn into a war objected, the French sent its troops into Athens and put down the forces, including elements of the Greek military, who opposed them.


And your own admission that Romania didn't join the war until it was almost over speaks volumes.

depaly wrote:

Bolivia,
Brazil,
Costa Rica,
Cuba,
Ecuador,
Guatemala,
Honduras,
Nicaragua,
Panama,
Peru,
Uruguay.

Apart from a few naval battles off the coast of South America there was little or no activity in this part of the world. I reckon the involvement of all of these countries was less significant than the "Shannon stopover" in the "War on Terror". A diplomatic fig leaf, intended to convince the powerful allies and trading partners that they enjoyed unfettered support while reassuring their population that it's nothing to do with us at all.

depaly wrote:

Andorra,
San Marino,
Czechoslovak Legions,

Are these even countries? There was no such place as Czechoslovakia during World War One. It was all part of Austria-Hungary. These volunteers who fought for the Russians were nationalist rebels, very similar to our own "gallant allies" of the Germans who rebelled in Dublin in 1916.

depaly wrote:

Liberia,
Portugal,

I will confess to knowing nothing of the position of Liberia, (enlighten me please:rolleyes:) or its contribution to the Allied effort in World War One. Portugal was another "shannon stopover" style commitment and was far more concerned with its colonies in Africa, which abutted German posessions there than anything in Europe.

depaly wrote:

China,
Siam

My knowledge of Siam's effort is akin to that of Liberia's. And I know that China was the venue for some opportunistic colony grabbing by Japan and Britain of Germany's possessions there.

I think arnhem44's analogy is right. They were like other drinkers in the bar, either not wanting to get involved or maybe starting a few 'handbags' among themselves.

Fratton Fred

Snickers Man wrote: »

I think arnhem44's analogy is right. They were like other drinkers in the bar, either not wanting to get involved or maybe starting a few 'handbags' among themselves.

I would describe them as drinkers who waited until the fat lady was entering stage left, then spat on the bodies of the defeated and offered the victors a cigarette in the hope they would get a chance to go through the same set of pockets.

FiSe

Snickers Man wrote: »

Are these even countries? There was no such place as Czechoslovakia during World War One. It was all part of Austria-Hungary. These volunteers who fought for the Russians were nationalist rebels, very similar to our own "gallant allies" of the Germans who rebelled in Dublin in 1916.

CZ legionaries were recruited from all parts of the world and from the deserters and POWs. They were fighting on the western front and in Italy too, as well as Russia.
Needless to say that the main chapter of the Czechoslovak legions in Russia came after Brest-Litovsk peace.

depaly

Snickers Man wrote: »

Talk about splitting hairs!!
Let's group these "countries" geographically to get a clearer picture.



Notwithstanding the fact that Serbia HAS been mentioned in the bar-room analogy, the participation of all these countries had far more to do with existing inter-Balkan rivalry than any concern at the actions of the Germans in Belgium.

Greece is an interesting case in point. Its people, and its politicians, were hopelessly divided on the subject of the war, the prime minister being pro-Allied while the King was a brother of the Kaiser.

The Allies forced the issue by telling Greece they were moving on to her territory, whether she liked it or not (shades of the German 'right of passage' through Belgium perhaps?) to use the island of Lemnos as a base to attack Gallipoli. When the Greeks who didn't want to get drawn into a war objected, the French sent its troops into Athens and put down the forces, including elements of the Greek military, who opposed them.


And your own admission that Romania didn't join the war until it was almost over speaks volumes.



Apart from a few naval battles off the coast of South America there was little or no activity in this part of the world. I reckon the involvement of all of these countries was less significant than the "Shannon stopover" in the "War on Terror". A diplomatic fig leaf, intended to convince the powerful allies and trading partners that they enjoyed unfettered support while reassuring their population that it's nothing to do with us at all.




Are these even countries? There was no such place as Czechoslovakia during World War One. It was all part of Austria-Hungary. These volunteers who fought for the Russians were nationalist rebels, very similar to our own "gallant allies" of the Germans who rebelled in Dublin in 1916.




I will confess to knowing nothing of the position of Liberia, (enlighten me please:rolleyes:) or its contribution to the Allied effort in World War One. Portugal was another "shannon stopover" style commitment and was far more concerned with its colonies in Africa, which abutted German posessions there than anything in Europe.




My knowledge of Siam's effort is akin to that of Liberia's. And I know that China was the venue for some opportunistic colony grabbing by Japan and Britain of Germany's possessions there.

I think arnhem44's analogy is right. They were like other drinkers in the bar, either not wanting to get involved or maybe starting a few 'handbags' among themselves.

I had no intention of 'splitting hairs'!!!!
Even if I had, it's surprising therefore that
you chose to respond with a detailed and
rather laboured reply!!!!
If you thought 'arnhem44's analogy was right',
then you were perhaps 'splitting hairs' with
him yourself!!!

depaly

FiSe wrote: »

CZ legionaries were recruited from all parts of the world and from the deserters and POWs. They were fighting on the western front and in Italy too, as well as Russia.
Needless to say that the main chapter of the Czechoslovak legions in Russia came after Brest-Litovsk peace.

That's right.

depaly

FiSe wrote: »

CZ legionaries were recruited from all parts of the world and from the deserters and POWs. They were fighting on the western front and in Italy too, as well as Russia.
Needless to say that the main chapter of the Czechoslovak legions in Russia came after Brest-Litovsk peace.

That's right.
I vaguely recall hearing that they found
themselves stranded in the middle of Russia,
during the Civil War, and were virtually
wiped out.
Or am I confusing it with an incident in WW2???

FiSe

There were incidents along the way during their withdrawal from Soviet Russia in 1918, but no, they were not wiped out, they were engaged in heavy fighting along the Trans-Siberian magistrale right up to 1920, when they were evacuated to Czechoslovakia from the port of Vladivostok, if I remember correctly.

depaly

FiSe wrote: »

There were incidents along the way during their withdrawal from Soviet Russia in 1918, but no, they were not wiped out, they were engaged in heavy fighting along the Trans-Siberian magistrale right up to 1920, when they were evacuated to Czechoslovakia from the port of Vladivostok, if I remember correctly.

Thanks for that..

depaly

Purely for the day that was in it.........

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae

...They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.

Laurence Binyon