Drink Driving

gustafo

Does a conviction from a few years ago for drink driving go down as a criminal record, i need to get a police criminal clearance cert for a visa and i am wondering will this show up on this.

cushtac

Yes, it is a conviction and it will appear on any cert of character.

gustafo

cushtac wrote: »

Yes, it is a conviction and it will appear on any cert of character.

but is it criminal from what i have been told its not so it wont show on it

cushtac

gustafo wrote: »

but is it criminal from what i have been told its not so it wont show on it

It is criminal and all convictions received while an adult will appear on a character cert.

FreudianSlippers

gustafo wrote: »

but is it criminal from what i have been told its not so it wont show on it

yes it is a criminal offence and AFAIK it will show on records.

Edit: barely beaten by cushtac

Lougar

gustafo,

As far as i understand, a drinking driving offence is a road traffic offence and a road traffic offence only. You will not have a criminal record as a result. It should not have any impact on your intention to travel.

slimjimmc

Lougar wrote: »

gustafo,

As far as i understand, a drinking driving offence is a road traffic offence and a road traffic offence only. You will not have a criminal record as a result. It should not have any impact on your intention to travel.

It is indeed a road traffic offence, but aren't all offences criminal offences regardless of whether they are traffic related, public order, smuggling, etc?
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/criminal-law/criminal-offences/classification-of-crimes-in-criminal-cases

I guess the issue of whether or not a foreign country considers a drink driving conviction serious enough to deny a visa probably depends on that country.

Our man in Havana

Correct, they are all criminal offences.

I guess the issue of whether or not a foreign country considers a drink driving conviction serious enough to deny a visa probably depends on that country.

Precisely.

Lougar

When you are charged with drink driving, you do not get a criminal record - Fact. As stated, it is a road traffic offence. Due to my profession, I am constantly liaising with members of the gardai and I know and have been informed many years ago when i started out in the legal profession that a drink driving offence does not entail a criminal record

detective

Lougar wrote: »

When you are charged with drink driving, you do not get a criminal record - Fact. As stated, it is a road traffic offence. Due to my profession, I am constantly liaising with members of the gardai and I know and have been informed many years ago when i started out in the legal profession that a drink driving offence does not entail a criminal record

It is a summary road traffic offence and it does form part of your previous convictions. However, it should not hamper any visa/travel plans due to its summary nature. It is a previous conviction though.

cushtac

Lougar wrote: »

When you are charged with drink driving, you do not get a criminal record - Fact.

When you apply for a police cert of character any drink driving convictions you have will appear on it - Fact. I've processed several applications for certs from people with such convictions and they always list them.

The only things that will not appear on them are juvenile convictions, adult cautions and cases where the probation act was applied.

Lougar

Yes it will appear on the gardai database but as queried - it does not entail a criminal conviction.

Lougar

Apologies, mistake - criminal record

detective

Lougar wrote: »

Yes it will appear on the gardai database but as queried - it does not entail a criminal conviction.

when a justice of the district court requests in a public courtroom that the gardai provide details of previous convictions i can assure you that a 49 will be included in the reply.

McCrack

Lougar wrote: »

When you are charged with drink driving, you do not get a criminal record - Fact. As stated, it is a road traffic offence. Due to my profession, I am constantly liaising with members of the gardai and I know and have been informed many years ago when i started out in the legal profession that a drink driving offence does not entail a criminal record

A drink driving conviction is most certainly a criminal conviction and by default entails a criminal record. Just because it comes under the umberella of a road traffic offence does not mean it is not a criminal conviction. If you are a lawyer or have even studied law you would know this.

westernventure

OisinT wrote: »

yes it is a criminal offence and AFAIK it will show on records.

Edit: barely beaten by cushtac

You are wrong

I just have received a police cert back from my local gardai station for a visa for canada and i have a drink driving conviction and it DID NOT show on it,

Then i asked a friend who is a cop and he said its not a criminal offence so just apply for it you will be fine.

Zambia

westernventure wrote: »

You are wrong

I just have received a police cert back from my local gardai station for a visa for canada and i have a drink driving conviction and it DID NOT show on it,

Then i asked a friend who is a cop and he said its not a criminal offence so just apply for it you will be fine.

You actually are barred from applying to canada for any Visa for 5 years after the end of the sentence for the offence
eg Offence 2008
Sentenced 2009 banned for a year
Allowed apply in 2015 (2009 + 1 = 2010 + 5 = 2015)
AND EVEN THEN You must apply for something called criminal re-habilitation


So the question should be asked why does a Garda Cert for Immigration to Canada not display a DD offence.

Because its not regarded as a Criminal conviction like the UK. Lucky you.

Our man in Havana

Clerical error?

Zambia

Haddockman wrote: »

Clerical error?

You would hope not. However the more I read back through the thread the more tangled I get. The constant I have from the Canadian side is that they count criminal convictions.

If you apply from the UK and have drink driving on your sheet it comes up and you go though the above process. Yet westernventure is saying he has one on his past and it does not register.

What is the legal difference between being convicted of Drink driving in the UK and in Ireland?

Hi Ace

Because they are two separate jurisdictions as of the 1922 Anglo Irish treaty which proceeded the Irish war of independence or Anglo Irish war 1919-1922
as of this the Republic of Ireland has a Constitution and its laws are not based on the laws of the UK

ThreeLineWhip

LOL! There are still loads of pre 1921 acts of the UK parliament that are still valid here today.

ahnowbrowncow

Thanks hi ace, I've been watching this thread closely for over two years in the hope it would get a definitive answer like yours.

Procrastastudy

Hi Ace wrote: »

Because they are two separate jurisdictions as of the 1922 Anglo Irish treaty which proceeded the Irish war of independence or Anglo Irish war 1919-1922
as of this the Republic of Ireland has a Constitution and its laws are not based on the laws of the UK

What law of the UK? I assume you mean the common law of England and Wales rather than the distinct legal system of the Scots.

Laws in Ireland, the correct name for the state, are indeed based on the common law. Not only are our laws (statute and case law) based on English law prior to independence many statues and cases are based on English statues and decisions of the House of Lords (now the Supreme court) post independence up to the present day.

ShowMeTheCash

Just to jump on this thread.
I got a DUI conviction while living in the UK, once I moved home and exchanged my license I was more or less told the DUI endorsement would not be considered on my Rep License as it was issued by a foreign country.

However, I have only recently moved home, what is the legality of not declaring this to my Insurance company?

ThreeLineWhip

You have already been given your answer in the motors forum.

ShowMeTheCash

If you mean, that no one seems to know being an answer then you are correct...

I jist I got was, probably I need to tell them, but they probably would not be able to find out, unless the company operated both sides of the boarder.

But no definite answer, after calling some brokers they do not seem to know either...

ResearchWill

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Just to jump on this thread.
I got a DUI conviction while living in the UK, once I moved home and exchanged my license I was more or less told the DUI endorsement would not be considered on my Rep License as it was issued by a foreign country.

However, I have only recently moved home, what is the legality of not declaring this to my Insurance company?

You asked the legality, all insurance operate on the principle of upmost good faith. So legally it is wrong not to inform. Also UK bans since 2010 will apply in ireland.

Info from the UK side http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/mutual_recognition_of_driving_disqualification/

ResearchWill

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

If you mean, that no one seems to know being an answer then you are correct...

I jist I got was, probably I need to tell them, but they probably would not be able to find out, unless the company operated both sides of the boarder.

But no definite answer, after calling some brokers they do not seem to know either...

They more than likely find out as above the ban can effect you in Ireland.

ABajaninCork

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

If you mean, that no one seems to know being an answer then you are correct...

I jist I got was, probably I need to tell them, but they probably would not be able to find out, unless the company operated both sides of the boarder.

But no definite answer, after calling some brokers they do not seem to know either...

Here are the relevant parts quoted from the CPS website link RW told you...

***TEXT***
Irish residents who commit driving offences in the UK
The DVLA will notify the Irish authorities of anyone resident in Ireland, regardless of nationality, disqualified by the UK courts for any driving offence which falls in category 1 - 5 above. For offences falling within category 6, notification will be sent to the Irish authorities if the disqualification period is for 6 months or more.

No notification will be sent by the DVLA to the Irish authorities until the driver's right to appeal against the UK court's decision has been exhausted.

The Irish authorities are responsible for arrangements for recognising the disqualification in Ireland.

Calculation by the DVLA/DVA of the remaining period of time to be served by a UK resident for a disqualification recognised as a result of an offence committed in Ireland

It is important that there is prompt administrative action for the application of the disqualification in the UK and that length of disqualification served here is not unnecessarily shortened by the method of calculation of the due period.

The UK will generally apply a "same end date" approach so when the disqualification period ends in Ireland the disqualification in the UK will end on the same date.

An example for illustrative purposes:

Driver is convicted and sentenced for drink driving in Ireland on 1 January 2011 for 12 months. Disqualification is due to end in Ireland on 31 December 2011.

Ireland notifies the UK. DVLA or DVA writes to driver on 1 February 2011. Disqualification takes effect 21 days (plus, for example 2 days for service) later (to allow for the 21 day CICA right of appeal which exists in the UK).

Period served in the UK is between 24 February 2011 to 31 December 2011.

In the UK, if we recognise a disqualification incurred in Ireland, the disqualification cannot take effect in the UK until notice has been served on the driver. The notice under section 57 of CICA must state when the disqualification starts and ends in the UK. In practice we are deeming as having been served any period of time from the date the disqualification starts in Ireland to the time it takes effect in the UK.

It is important to ensure that administration time is kept to a minimum as the driver may otherwise serve a significantly shortened period of time.

A delay may arise from:

time taken in administrative systems e.g. from courts to licensing authorities
time taken to send the notification details between Ireland and the UK
time taken to recognise the disqualification e.g. DVLA sending notice to the driver in the UK or Irish licensing authorities arranging a court date in Ireland.
Every effort will be made to ensure that administrative delays are minimised and this will be kept under review after the mutual recognition of driving disqualifications with Ireland is implemented.
***END OF TEXT***

Like I told you on your other thread, yes, you DO have to declare a DD conviction whether you got it in the UK or not. I've always been asked if I have any convictions even though my insurance know I have a UK licence. It is a material fact which could have serious implications if the conviction is subsequently discovered.

You can ask the question as many times as you want. It's unfortunate the answer isn't what you want to hear.

ShowMeTheCash

OK I will explain this again.

I was not living in N Ireland on an Irish License, I had a N Ireland license.
I was resident in N Ireland I passed my test in N Ireland.

So I get the DUI, I lose my N Ireland license and received a one year ban.
True that this ban would also have to be recognized in Ireland... I already knew this!
I do my 1 year ban I get back my N Ireland License after i resit my test, I even insurance in the UK....

You information below has nothing to do with it or has nothing to do with the question that I am asking... My Rep of Ireland License does not have any endorsements or even points allocate by the UK...

Yes if I was still serving my ban, I could not apply for a new license until it was served

To all intensive purposes I have a full clean Rep or Ireland driving license!

ResearchWill

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

OK I will explain this again.

I was not living in N Ireland on an Irish License, I had a N Ireland license.
I was resident in N Ireland I passed my test in N Ireland.

So I get the DUI, I lose my N Ireland license and received a one year ban.
True that this ban would also have to be recognized in Ireland... I already knew this!
I do my 1 year ban I get back my N Ireland License after i resit my test, I even insurance in the UK....

You information below has nothing to do with it or has nothing to do with the question that I am asking... My Rep of Ireland License does not have any endorsements or even points allocate by the UK...

Yes if I was still serving my ban, I could not apply for a new license until it was served

To all intensive purposes I have a full clean Rep or Ireland driving license!

And when asked the question have you any convictions in the past 5 years under the upmost good faith principle you must answer yes.

ShowMeTheCash

Yes this is true, and I guess in 2 years I can always say no....
But also I committed no offense in the state and for most legal things, such as my license it is not considered (And they are on about changing this in the future) as it was issued by a foreign court...
But, just wondering if there is anyway an insurance company could find out if I had a driving conviction from another country??

One broker actually told me had it happened here, it would probably be easier to quote me as it fits into their database type searches... But as it happened elsewhere, their searches are not able to satisfy the criteria...

Just wondering, if I was in an accident, and the insurance was "wait you had a DUI on a different license in a different country in 2010" could I even argue that "I have no driving related convictions in this country and a clean license, therefore I did not think i had to declare it"...

Maybe I would need to talk to a solicitor.

ResearchWill

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Yes this is true, and I guess in 2 years I can always say no....
But also I committed no offense in the state and for most legal things, such as my license it is not considered (And they are on about changing this in the future) as it was issued by a foreign court...
But, just wondering if there is anyway an insurance company could find out if I had a driving conviction from another country??

One broker actually told me had it happened here, it would probably be easier to quote me as it fits into their database type searches... But as it happened elsewhere, their searches are not able to satisfy the criteria...

Just wondering, if I was in an accident, and the insurance was "wait you had a DUI on a different license in a different country in 2010" could I even argue that "I have no driving related convictions in this country and a clean license, therefore I did not think i had to declare it"...

Maybe I would need to talk to a solicitor.

So your question is "I know it's wrong but will I get caught?" Noone can answer that question simple, even if not specifically asked a question there is an obligation to inform the insurance company of relevant facts. The ultimate sanction is to revoke to policy, in motor insurance company must pay all 3rd party claims up to revocation but they are in the right to sue the insured to recoup their losses.

I know it's not the answer you want but it's the only answer you should get.

ShowMeTheCash

The main problem I am having is finding an insurance company to actually give me a quote... In the UK I found a quote easily with all relevant details... But with my move pending in the next couple of weeks I am at a loss to find a company that will do it....

I need to assume there are companies that do quote but I so far have not been able to find one.

Someone has said if I get enough refusals there is a body that can do it for me, but will they find me the best quote or just the first they can find.

In the UK I think it is a legal requirement for a company to quote, it might be ridiculous but they need to give you one, so I ended up paying 1800 sterling but some companies (who simply did not want me) quoted 7000...

I just don't want someone going, yeah OK 10,000 euro

JackieBurke

There is a declined cases panel in the insurance federation that will get you a quote if you can provide 3 written refusals. It won't be cheap.

Your biggest problem is getting a written refusal. Insurance companies don't like giving them out.

valleyoftheunos

For insurance purposes you need to revel everything. If you don't tell them about your conviction and you have to claim they will be able to refuse to pay.

ResearchWill

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

For insurance purposes you need to revel everything. If you don't tell them about your conviction and you have to claim they will be able to refuse to pay.

Just clarify a motor insurance company can not refuse to compensate a third party claim, but they can sue the insured for any money claimed by the third party.

valleyoftheunos

ResearchWill wrote: »

Just clarify a motor insurance company can not refuse to compensate a third party claim, but they can sue the insured for any money claimed by the third party.

Fairplay, hadn't considered that.

ShowMeTheCash

Got it sorted, was able to contact a broker that was able to contact the right insurance companies.

I have 4 years no claims bonus so it was not as expensive as I thought it would be.

800 euro well just under so I am happy enough, everything is declared.