Contador Suspended

mitresize5

Jawgap wrote: »

......but the court that matters is the court of public opinion:)

What say you all?

For me - I'd go with the Scottish verdict of - not proven!

and I'll defer to a Munster Senior Cup favourite from my youth

Nail him, string him up,
Nail him, string him up,
Nail him, string him up,

DirkVoodoo

Diarmuid wrote: »

Dirk you gotta factor in his "incredible" TdF TT performace in 2009 following a similar incredible TT performance in Paris-Nice and his links to Operation Puerto.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if he was doping, but am surprised that he got caught.

Disgusted by Uncle Pat (UCI) trying to play down the significance in the press release

Well yeah, the 2009 was certainly suspicious with his TT beating of Cancellara, but wasn't he the Spanish U23 time trial champion?

If he did cheat then he deserves what is coming, but I would like to hear an admission and an apology so when he comes back I can support him again. And that is IF.

ednwireland

dont know what your all arguing about this clears everything up no case to answer

'The organiser of the Vuelta a Castilla y Leon came to the Tour and our cook asked if he could bring some good meat.


'This person bought this meat in a shop on the way to France. I don't know where the shop gets their meat supply from.


'He arrived that day and on the afternoon of the 20th, a day before our rest day, the meat was cooked.'


Contador said he was not the only rider to eat the meat, but that he was one of the only ones who had who was tested afterwards.


'I was told that the only rider to go through a test after the meat was Aleksandr Vinokurov, but because he went down to dinner early, he didn't eat any and because we don't usually eat meat on rest days, so as not to put on weight, he didn|t ask for it either,' Contador said.


'He went to the control with me, but he hadn't eaten the meat. Of all the other riders, none went through the control. I told all of this to UCI.


'The UCI understands perfectly what has happened. This is a different case because it's a clear case of contamination, incomparable to any other Clenbuterol case.

DirkVoodoo

ednwireland wrote: »

dont know what your all arguing about this clears everything up no case to answer

Vino as your alibi? Case closed!

I can see the headlines:

"Vino claims to have eaten 4 entire cows on TdeF rest day"

Diarmuid

ednwireland wrote: »

dont know what your all arguing about this clears everything up no case to answer

I'm having flashbacks to convoluted explanations for elevated testosterone involving glasses of JD

Chips Lovell

Diarmuid wrote: »

I'm having flashbacks to convoluted explanations for elevated testosterone involving glasses of JD

Even better, Vino's original rebuttal:

"I heard that I made a transfusion with my father's blood," Vinokourov said. "That's absurd, I can tell you that with his blood, I would have tested positive for vodka."

Inquitus

ednwireland wrote: »

dont know what your all arguing about this clears everything up no case to answer

We got a guy to buy some meat somewhere, we can't remember where he got it, or trace the herd, but don't worry Gov, it's defo the steak that done it.


Is that the jist of the defense?

manwithaplan

our cook asked if he could bring some good meat

Ring ring
Yes?
Bring some good meat. The boys need it on the rest day.
No problem. I will scour the finest butcher shops in all Spain to find...
What? No - I mean bring some good meat
Yes. I will bring the flesh of the noblest toro...
No - you idiot. We need some good meat
Please be assured that Alfredo Gonzalez Martinez Castro Torres di...
I give up!

NickDrake

TinyExplosions wrote: »

And this is why it is impossible to have a rational discussion with you Nicky Boy -you just keep hammering away time after time with the same points "guilty" "Puerto" "I told you all", with no attempt to even entertain the possibility that you could be wrong.

There's been some great discussion on this thread, pulling in lots of sources that actually know something about the things mentioned here (we have doctors posting, people linking to actual studies showing the concentration of contaminants in fodd etc etc etc), which contributes to the thread and makes for interesting reading, only marred by your incessant yapping -really, you're like a little yappy type dog that's hungry for attention.

We all know your opinion on this matter, so please either contribute or keep quiet.

ps, he was cleared in the courts of Puerto, so guilty or not in your mind, in the eyes of the law (which hold a little more sway than your over-active imagination) he has done nothing wrong up until this point. Just cool your jets till he's banned, or not as the case may be

What a rant! We have a big Contador supporter here folks by the looks of it.

Just because someone is not held to be guilty, doesnt mean they are actually morally innocent my friend. The law doesnt always get it right.

What yapping have I been doing? I have my opinion about the reason for the banned drug in his system just like you do.

You are not a Mod on this forum and are not entitled to tell me to keep quiet. Who do you think you are?? Just because you spend most of your day posting on this forum doesn't entitle you to any powers on here.

Get down off your high horse. You are the one who brought this off topic rant up, not me.

If you had been reading the recent (last week) interviews about the operation pureto, you would have seen that hundreds of his clients got off scot free. I am not going into that now, but it might be a read for you.

Chips Lovell

Thanks for informing us all about Operation Puerto. I'd never heard of it before today.

NickDrake

el tonto wrote: »

Thanks for informing us all about Operation Puerto. I'd never heard of it before today.

I meerly stated the recent evidence from interviews last week. Can we leave it at that. Thanks.

By the way, not everyone on here knows about OP. People view this thread, who know very little about OP.

CheGuedara

NickDrake wrote: »

What a rant!

The irony...

Diarmuid

NickDrake wrote: »

What yapping have I been doing?

16 posts out of 40 on this thread, and all you've said is that Contador is guilty and anyone who doesn't believe it is a fool.

NickDrake

CheGuedara wrote: »

The irony...

I thought of that when posting but he did rant.

Good to see all his usual pals on here, backing him up.

Can we get back on topic please. If TinyExplosions has a problem he can PM me and not post on this thread.

Thank you.

Chips Lovell

NickDrake wrote: »

You are not a Mod on this forum and are not entitled to tell me to keep quiet. Who do you think you are?? Just because you spend most of your day posting on this forum doesn't entitle you to any powers on here.

I am a mod though. If you adopt an aggresive and obnoxious posting style, you shouldn't be surprised if people respond in a similar fashion.

In short, don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Thanks.

ednwireland

occham's razor "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one".

i really cant see why anyone would have a problem with random good meat bought from an unknown butcher by the vuelta organizer full of clenbuterol would cause such arguments

:P

TinyExplosions

NickDrake wrote: »

What a rant! We have a big Contador supporter here folks by the looks of it.

Where have I said that I'm a supporter, and where have I said that he's definitely innocent?

NickDrake wrote: »

Just because someone is not held to be guilty, doesnt mean they are actually morally innocent my friend. The law doesnt always get it right.

Never said they got it right, what I said was that under law, he's innocent of anything dodgy going on from Operation Puerto, therefore to continuously bring it up isn't particularly valid. There were suppositions, he was cleared -ever heard of innocent till proven guilty?

NickDrake wrote: »

What yapping have I been doing? I have my opinion about the reason for the banned drug in his system just like you do.

Diarmuid said it succinctly, 15 posts:

"I can't understand why people are shocked by this.

This guy was involved in Operation Pureto and beat Cancellara last year in the Tour TT"

"Natural ability? You gotta be kidding me. You are as deluded as the bankers.

Furthermore as it was the rest day and after the Tourmalet, a nice top up may have had it from earlier extraction in the off season"

"Top up. The new blood?"

"This thing about in being in food is a lame legal excuse.

It came from other blood for god sake."

"I cannot understand people trying to defend him here. What was it doing in his system??

Drug cheats are years ahead in cocktails etc and we don't know what they might be taking or putting back in."

"No way he took this during the Tour. No way. It came from stored blood."

"Ah lads. COME ON. Ye are hardly believing the meat defence.

How gullible are ye? Ye are hilarious"

"Blood bag. Not meat"

"Didn't come from a transfusion then? You are sure it came from meat?"

"Exactly, it clearly came from a transfusion."

"First time you have only strating to be disillusioned?? You must have had the blinkers on for years my friend."

"No. We are saying it came from a blood transfusion. That's what people are saying"

"We will continue to disagree so. Your naivety seems to go on and on, no matter what.

Without proof? Operation Pureto??"

"If you had been reading the recent (last week) interviews about the operation pureto, you would have seen that hundreds of his clients got off scot free. I am not going into that now, but it might be a read for you."

"I meerly stated the recent evidence from interviews last week. Can we leave it at that. Thanks.

By the way, not everyone on here knows about OP. People view this thread, who know very little about OP."

So, based on the above, which are most of your posts here, how can you say it's not yapping -it's either banging on about blood doping, or about Puerto -hardly contributing anything to the conversation are you (bar the first post)

NickDrake wrote: »

You are not a Mod on this forum and are not entitled to tell me to keep quiet. Who do you think you are?? Just because you spend most of your day posting on this forum doesn't entitle you to any powers on here.

I never said I was a mod, and all I suggested was that you were bringing nothing to the conversation and that it would be a good idea to keep quiet -that's not an order, that's my opinion, which I'm entitled to and continue to have

NickDrake wrote: »

Get down off your high horse. You are the one who brought this off topic rant up, not me.

If you had been reading the recent (last week) interviews about the operation pureto, you would have seen that hundreds of his clients got off scot free. I am not going into that now, but it might be a read for you.

I was pointing out your yapping on about the same old thing, and yet you say that I was the one who brought stuff off topic -I would never have had to say anything if you'd made your point once, and then proceeded to be constructive.

As for my high horse, I think I'll stay up here, it's great for looking down on you from

NickDrake

el tonto wrote: »

I am a mod though. If you adopt an aggresive and obnoxious posting style, you shouldn't be surprised if people respond in a similar fashion.

In short, don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Thanks.

Aggressive?? Where??

TinyExplosions

NickDrake wrote: »

I thought of that when posting but he did rant.

Good to see all his usual pals the rational people on here, backing him up.

Can we get back on topic please. If TinyExplosions has a problem he can PM me and not post on this thread.

Thank you.

FYP

Lumen

The ignore list is quite useful. Just sayin'.

NickDrake

Oh for god sake Tiny Explosions. The length of that post, do you really think people care. Talk about a rant and going off topic.

Looking down on me?? For god sake will you ever cop on and get back on topic please.

I said PM me if you have trouble with me and posting up that crazy rant could have been done via PM.

TinyExplosions

NickDrake wrote: »

Oh for god sake Tiny Explosions. The length of that post, do you really think people care. Talk about a rant and going off topic.

Looking down on me?? For god sake will you ever cop on and get back on topic please.

I said PM me if you have trouble with me and posting up that crazy rant could have been done via PM.

Why should I bother PM'ing you -it's more fun on here.

Tell you what, I'll stick to the topic if you stop harping on about Puerto and Blood doping... deal?

mgmt

Its too much of a coincidence that he was caught on a rest day before the hardest day in the tour. He should have taken blood for his autologous blood transfusion when he was clean of PEDs. Like every other rider.

NickDrake

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Why should I bother PM'ing you -it's more fun on here.

Tell you what, I'll stick to the topic if you stop harping on about Puerto and Blood doping... deal?

I will stop going on about Puerto.

I am not the only one who mentioned the blood doping. I have said my opinion on it.

Don't see you going after them?

NickDrake

mgmt wrote: »

Its too much of a coincidence that he was caught on a rest day before the hardest day in the tour. He should have taken blood for his autologous blood transfusion when he was clean of PEDs. Like every other rider.

TinyExlosions won't like this. Expect a rant

Chips Lovell

NickDrake wrote: »

Aggressive?? Where??

Read back over your previous posts and have a think about how you come across. A bit of civility wouldn't go amiss.

RobFowl

@ Nick,Tiny et al

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPMmC0UAnj0

Brian?

mgmt wrote: »

Its too much of a coincidence that he was caught on a rest day before the hardest day in the tour. He should have taken blood for his autologous blood transfusion when he was clean of PEDs. Like every other rider.

If the clenbuterol came from a blood transfusion, the blood would have been drawn at some stage in the off season. Is there a reason he would take clenbuterol in the off season?

I can see why he'd take HGH, testosterone etc. in the off season but why would he take a stimulant?

This is curiousty, I would like to know why he would rather than if he did.

RobFowl

briankeating wrote: »

If the clenbuterol came from a blood transfusion, the blood would have been drawn at some stage in the off season. Is there a reason he would take clenbuterol in the off season?

I can see why he'd take HGH, testosterone etc. in the off season but why would he take a stimulant?

This is curiousty, I would like to know why he would rather than if he did.

The most obvious reason would be to lose weight.

TinyExplosions

NickDrake wrote: »

I will stop going on about Puerto.

I am not the only one who mentioned the blood doping. I have said my opinion on it.

Don't see you going after them?

Excellent, then we can have a civil discussion on here. Never said you were the only one, but if you read my post above (which was mostly your quotes) you will see that you mentioned it nearly every post you made, that is what I was pointing out, and why I won't "rant" at mgmt for example

@RobFowl, I get on with most people -don't bear any animosity to anyone really, particularly anyone on the internets!

alfalad

Nick,

I think the point being made is that you insist that there is only one plausible explanation for this, blood bags (which you have repeated and insinuated many times in the thread) however the fact is there is another possible explanation to this despite your insistence there is not, as shown by examples given by other posters and agreed with by people posting on here who understand these things to a far greater degree than I. At this point we only have the details published in the media today, those details alone are not enough to firmly say one way or another what the source was.

Naturally we are entitled to our opinion but that is all it is, our opinion, and should not be forced on other people.

To be honest I made my mind up on him a long time ago and am more looking forward to the statements made by the UCI the conclusion they come to etc, than the outcome itself!

Jawgap

RobFowl wrote: »

The most obvious reason would be to lose weight.

.....and probably to build / maintain lean muscle mass.

dedon

@ TinyExplosions. You have totally over reacted here and are out of order. That rant is totally immature and has taken this thread off topic. Could not believe seeing it.

@ NickDrake - I agree with what you have said but don't keep saying it.

As NickDrake said, can we get back on topic please.

Chips Lovell

I don't think blood is necessarily drawn in the off-season, but also during quieter periods of the season.

Contador had allergy and breathing problems during the Criterium International. Another little nugget to consider. Was he taking anything containing Clenbuterol that he had a TUE for at the time I wonder?

Jawgap

I'm never sure if this is coincidence or serendipity - but the Veterinary Medicines Directorate in the UK have just published their Report for 2009 and it has literally in the last 10 minutes arrived in my inbox. On clenbuterol it says:-

"Clenbuterol residues were detected in 1 of 60 cattle urine samples tested in a screen for beta-agonists.

These were at a concentration of 0.2 μg/l.

Clenbuterol use can result in a leaner carcase; however, this growth
promotion use is banned under EU law. This is because risks have been
identified to those consuming meat from animals that have residues of
clenbuterol at unacceptable concentrations. For example, it is thought the
residues could result in heart damage in consumers.

Clenbuterol can be used legally for controlling labour in cattle and also in
embryo transfer. Animals treated in this way may not be slaughtered for
human consumption for 14 days after the last treatment, which allows any
residues to deplete. The samples taken as part of the follow-up investigation were all compliant for clenbuterol."

honestly, if the hit rate in the UK was 1.6% - I'd say, based on part performance, the hit rate in France, Spain and Italy is closer to 4%

petethedrummer

briankeating wrote: »

If the clenbuterol came from a blood transfusion, the blood would have been drawn at some stage in the off season. Is there a reason he would take clenbuterol in the off season.

I was wondering the same. Is it part of a typical off season drug program?

RobFowl wrote: »

The most obvious reason would be to lose weight.

Would Contador have weight problems? I suppose if he's trying to shave off the last few percent of body fat, he may feel the need to use it. I'd be awful suspicious of the guy but he did look human during the tour. And I'm just curious as to why he would take clenbuterol in the off season.

I suppose its like Ben Johnson, he's still adamant he didn't take stanozol in 1988 and his ex coach doesn't reckon he took it either. He doesn't argue about the fact that he doped, just what they caught him for is not what he took.

BryanL

Should a Clenbuterol Steak be cook medium or well done and would pepper sauce have any effect on it?
I'm off to buy a 100 steaks, 45 of them should make me fly.

petethedrummer

el tonto wrote: »

Was he taking anything containing Clenbuterol that he had a TUE for at the time I wonder?

Is it approved for human consumption?

Brian?

Jawgap wrote: »

.....and probably to build / maintain lean muscle mass.

I can see the weight loss part, maybe. It would be incredibly stupid of him to take a banned substance to lose weight though. Surely any weightloss he needed to achieve could be done with diet and training. Considering he's peaking for the Tour every year, he must have that down by now.

But you can't lose weight and gain lean muscle at the same time surely.

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

I don't think blood is necessarily drawn in the off-season, but also during quieter periods of the season.

Contador had allergy and breathing problems during the Criterium International. Another little nugget to consider. Was he taking anything containing Clenbuterol that he had a TUE for at the time I wonder?

Now there's an interesting idea... anyway of finding out what riders had what TUE's during a season?

Jawgap

el tonto wrote: »

I don't think blood is necessarily drawn in the off-season, but also during quieter periods of the season.

Contador had allergy and breathing problems during the Criterium International. Another little nugget to consider. Was he taking anything containing Clenbuterol that he had a TUE for at the time I wonder?

If he had the exemption wouldn't he have turned up waving it rather than going for the filet mignon defence.

Incidentally, who decides when these things are announced? The UCI? Seems a bit daft to announce something like this in the middle of the World Championships.

mgmt

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm never sure if this is coincidence or serendipity - but the Veterinary Medicines Directorate in the UK have just published their Report for 2009 and it has literally in the last 10 minutes arrived in my inbox. On clenbuterol it says:-

"Clenbuterol residues were detected in 1 of 60 cattle urine samples tested in a screen for beta-agonists.

These were at a concentration of 0.2 μg/l.

Clenbuterol use can result in a leaner carcase; however, this growth
promotion use is banned under EU law. This is because risks have been
identified to those consuming meat from animals that have residues of
clenbuterol at unacceptable concentrations. For example, it is thought the
residues could result in heart damage in consumers.

Clenbuterol can be used legally for controlling labour in cattle and also in
embryo transfer. Animals treated in this way may not be slaughtered for
human consumption for 14 days after the last treatment, which allows any
residues to deplete. The samples taken as part of the follow-up investigation were all compliant for clenbuterol."

honestly, if the hit rate in the UK was 1.6% - I'd say, based on part performance, the hit rate in France, Spain and Italy is closer to 4%

I read that the half-life of clenbuterol is 4 days? Does cooking the meat effect the concentration?

On aside, it's scary what farmers are pumping into our food :eek:

NickDrake

briankeating wrote: »

I can see the weight loss part, maybe. It would be incredibly stupid of him to take a banned substance to lose weight though. Surely any weightloss he needed to achieve could be done with diet and training. Considering he's peaking for the Tour every year, he must have that down by now.

But you can't lose weight and gain lean muscle at the same time surely.

Thats what weight loss is really. Loss of fat and increase in lean muscle.

cormpat

Jawgap wrote: »

If he had the exemption wouldn't he have turned up waving it rather than going for the filet mignon defence.

Incidentally, who decides when these things are announced? The UCI? Seems a bit daft to announce something like this in the middle of the World Championships.

It can't be the UCI, they couldn't be that thick.

Look how many people are talking about this & not Cancellara's record breaking 4th TT win? It would be seriously bad PR....

Jawgap

mgmt wrote: »

I read that the half-life of clenbuterol is 4 days? Does cooking the meat effect the concentration?

On aside, it's scary what farmers are pumping into our food :eek:

No cooking won't affect it - plus getting down below the regulatory limit is one thing - making sure that all trace of the substance is gone is quite another.

The food is fine - the worst damage it'll do to you is from eating too much of it!

Chips Lovell

petethedrummer wrote: »

Is it approved for human consumption?

According to that reliable source Wikipedia, in some countries it is, as a bronchodilator for asthma patients

Jawgap wrote: »

If he had the exemption wouldn't he have turned up waving it rather than going for the filet mignon defence.

No, because he would have had to have been taking it at some other time during the season and traces were left in a blood bag he may have transfused on the rest day.

Jawgap wrote: »

Incidentally, who decides when these things are announced? The UCI? Seems a bit daft to announce something like this in the middle of the World Championships.

Contador decided to announce it himself.

TinyExplosions

Jawgap wrote: »

If he had the exemption wouldn't he have turned up waving it rather than going for the filet mignon defence.

Incidentally, who decides when these things are announced? The UCI? Seems a bit daft to announce something like this in the middle of the World Championships.

I think the implication is that he had blood taken out around the Criterium International, when he had a TUE for clenbuterol, and that he had put it back in on the rest day, thereby re-introducing it into his blood.

Oldlegs

NickDrake wrote: »

By the way, not everyone on here knows about OP. People view this thread, who know very little about OP.

While I recalled (sort of) Operation Peurto your bringing it up again was very relevant. When I did a quick Wiki (during a coffee break here in the office, I swear :-) ) I was amazed at the number of people who were mentioned but had the case against them dropped on various technicalities.

This was news to me "(Frank)Schleck admitted transferring nearly 7000 euros to a bank account held by Dr. Fuentes, but denied any doping or personal contact with Fuentes"

RobFowl

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I think the implication is that he had blood taken out around the Criterium International, when he had a TUE for clenbuterol, and that he had put it back in on the rest day, thereby re-introducing it into his blood.

You can't get a TUE for Clenbuterol these days. It's practically obsolete as an anti-asthma drug in humans as there are vastly superior alternatives about.

Brian?

NickDrake wrote: »

Thats what weight loss is really. Loss of fat and increase in lean muscle.

Nope, not really. In order to build muscle you need a caloric surplus. In order to lose fat you need a caloric deficit.

You can lose weight by:

losing fat and muscle.
1. Losing muscle and maitaining fat (unlikely).
2. Losing fat and maintaining muscle mass ( Difficult, so difficult its the holy grail for athletes.)
3. Losing both fat and muscle. (easy)

You can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, ask any pro bodybuilder who is admittedly juiced up to the eyeballs. Even on their level of juice they can't do it.

So, would clenbuterol help achieve 2?