Contador Suspended

Chips Lovell

RobFowl wrote: »

You can't get a TUE for Clenbuterol these days. It's practically obsolete as an anti-asthma drug in humans as there are vastly superior alternatives about.

That rules that theory out so.

Inquitus

Google told me of cooking methods, only deepfrying Meat at very very high temps will reduce the levels of Clenbuterol.

I think he's guilty though, Stone him!

Brian?

Inquitus wrote: »

Google told me of cooking methods, only deepfrying Meat at very very high temps will reduce the levels of Clenbuterol.

I think he's guilty though, Stone him!

He should have gone for the country fried steak...............

goldencleric

Wonder if Paddy Power will pay me my (now) rightful money for betting on Schleck junior ...

... PS anyway back to Cancellara the auld legend, I shall wear my swiss champ jersey with even more pride now, not that I am in anyway Swiss but still!

christeb

I kinda called this 12+ months ago. Although I did rob most (read all) of my evidence from Greg LeMond and that physiologist guy:

http://scienceblog.ie/wordpress/index.php/le-tour-using-pantani-and-vo2-max-power-output-to-speculate-if-contador-is-clean/

Chips Lovell

Folks, please remember the spoiler rule.

Quigs Snr

Caught at last. But he may get away with it. The blood bag is the more likely cause than a steak on the balance of probabilities I reckon. Steak ? Contador ? On the Tour De France ? I dont think so !

That being said, I wouldn't be as sure about it as NickDrake who is either Greg Lemond in disquise or was recently dumped as Alberto's boyfriend.

NickDrake

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Caught at last. But he may get away with it. The blood bag is the more likely cause than a steak on the balance of probabilities I reckon. Steak ? Contador ? On the Tour De France ? I dont think so !

That being said, I wouldn't be as sure about it as NickDrake who is either Greg Lemond in disquise or was recently dumped as Alberto's boyfriend.

Cheers for the insult.

BryanL

"Ezequiel Mosquera and Xacobeo-Galicia team-mate David Garcia tested positive for the blood booster hydroxyethyl starch in urine samples during the Vuelta a Espana."

Starch is in Pasta? (and that stuff for ironing shirts)

Sounds like Steak and pasta is the ultimate performance meal?

Chartsengrafs

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Caught at last. But he may get away with it. The blood bag is the more likely cause than a steak on the balance of probabilities I reckon. Steak ? Contador ? On the Tour De France ? I dont think so !

That being said, I wouldn't be as sure about it as NickDrake who is either Greg Lemond in disquise or was recently dumped as Alberto's boyfriend.

Gay joke. Nice.

Signal_ rabbit

el tonto wrote: »

Things we need to know:

1. Were all the tests done at the same lab, or at least at labs capable of detecting the same minute concentrations? If so, it strenghtens his defence that it would make no sense to take such a tiny amount of the drug.

2. Does Clenbuterol survive in blood bags. (RobFowl?) If so, should his blood profile be looked at more closely.

3. I need to lose weight, where can I get some?

Chips Lovell

Please guys, lets try keep this civil. Personal insults aren't allowed and, more importantly, aren't helpful.

NickDrake

Could be a big story on Velo news very soon.

New test on storage on blood in plastic. The blood becomes infused with the plastic as it is stored in it for a period of time. i.e months.

New test has been developed in Germany to detect levels of this plastic in blood as a way of catching blood transfusions.

Contador's sample also contained levels of this substance.

This could be a major breakthrough.

Source - mentioned on cyclingnews forum

Being released to German news now

Could be a rubbish but lets wait and see. Science might be catching up

niceonetom

Vacuum packed steak?

NickDrake

Don't know much about this but the plastic compound is used in all blood bags. some special plastic.

They have found a way to detect this in blood. High levels therefore very suspicious

ROK ON

I would have preferred a more imaginative defensive from Bertie.

I read that Brunyeel has defended him. Claimed that Bertie wouldnt take Clenbuturol (probably because as his ex DS, hog knows exactly what he does take).

Junior

Here's the German Story in Velonation - Link

Russman

Been reading this thread with great interest and its a good ole debate, apart from the little spat in the middle.

I don't know whether he's guilty or not but does it seem that a likely explanation is that he had blood stored from an earlier date and this stored blood just happened to have clenbuterol in it (quite possibly by accident or without anyone's knowledge) ?
Given all the tenuous links and allegations flying around it does appear something is amiss. Maybe Alberto and that Chinese lad from Radioshack had dinner together months ago........:)

Or maybe he's just the unluckiest steak eater ever.

Russman

NickDrake wrote: »

Don't know much about this but the plastic compound is used in all blood bags. some special plastic.

They have found a way to detect this in blood. High levels therefore very suspicious

If this is true then it throws a whole new light on things. I assume its similar to why there are warnings on bottles of water that the plastic bottles should not be reused over and over ?

NickDrake

Junior wrote: »

Here's the German Story in Velonation - Link

This is MASSIVE. Backs my claims and others on here on the transfusion issue.

NickDrake

Russman wrote: »

If this is true then it throws a whole new light on things. I assume its similar to why there are warnings on bottles of water that the plastic bottles should not be reused over and over ?

See the link above Russman.

"There are other, very, very incriminating suspicious facts against Contador. Other values have appeared that are ten times over the higher value from so-called plasticizers [such as di-(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate (DEHP) – ed.] which are used in blood bags. These values were measured one day before the positive dope control. These blood bag softener values could indicate that autologous blood doping may have been performed.”

Now how will he explain this??

Also Rasmus Damsgaard, who previously ran the internal anti-doping programme in the Astana team, has already suggested that the Clenbuterol traces might be linked to a transfusion of blood taken out earlier in the season.

“If the data is correct then it’s most likely that it is a ‘Landis’,” Damsgaard told Danish TV station TV2 via SMS. “It would suggest that he has received a transfusion of his own blood, taken out a few months earlier when he used clenbuterol, which he has gotten back into his body.”

Inquitus

NickDrake wrote: »

See the link above Russman.

"There are other, very, very incriminating suspicious facts against Contador. Other values have appeared that are ten times over the higher value from so-called plasticizers [such as di-(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate (DEHP) – ed.] which are used in blood bags. These values were measured one day before the positive dope control. These blood bag softener values could indicate that autologous blood doping may have been performed.”

Now how will he explain this??

Plastic Bags in the field eaten by the Cows, next!

c montgomery

Is steak even a food that a GC tour rider would typically eat during a grand tour??

I would have thought that pasta, rice and chicken would be the order of the day.

Clutcling at straws if ya ask me, not that anyone is:D

alfalad

NickDrake wrote: »

Could be a big story on Velo news very soon.

New test on storage on blood in plastic. The blood becomes infused with the plastic as it is stored in it for a period of time. i.e months.

New test has been developed in Germany to detect levels of this plastic in blood as a way of catching blood transfusions.

Contador's sample also contained levels of this substance.

This could be a major breakthrough.

Source - mentioned on cyclingnews forum

Being released to German news now

Could be a rubbish but lets wait and see. Science might be catching up

So did you have an inside track and didn't share earlier or has this just backed up your opinion nicely, albeit had it come out 6 hours earlier it would have helped avoid the "incident"?

ROK ON

c montgomery wrote: »

Is steak even a food that a GC tour rider would typically eat during a grand tour??

I would have thought that pasta, rice and chicken would be the order of the day.

Clutcling at straws if ya ask me, not that anyone is:D

They would sometimes have a steak. Protein.

Article on Pez Cycling recently with Cervelo's chef. He was cooking a steak on a rest day. A lot of the riders look forward to it.

rayr

Cheating in (pro-) cycling is as old as the hills .. Why is anyone surprisd about this story. For more read 'French Revolutions' by Tim Moore - a cracking read. Sorry for slightly OT.

NickDrake

We should concentrate our efforts into getting this sport clean. Then this means getting Contador out and not trying to keep him in.

NickDrake

alfalad wrote: »

So did you have an inside track and didn't share earlier or has this just backed up your opinion nicely, albeit had it come out 6 hours earlier it would have helped avoid the "incident"?

The "incident" was not my doing, this is plain to see. His reaction was absurd.

No this simply backs up what I said this morning. I just took a rational view as to how the hell that stuff got in his system.

alfalad

NickDrake wrote: »

The "incident" was not my doing, this is plain to see. His reaction was absurd.

No this simply backs up what I said this morning. I just took a rational view as to how the hell that stuff got in his system.

Never said it was fault and don't believe it to be, if you read my post from this afternoon you will see that. I'm merely saying that this is the sort of back up people were looking for given your stance and instance earlier.

Junior

I thought it was a lab in Munich did the testing not Spain ?

NickDrake

alfalad wrote: »

Never said it was fault and don't believe it to be, if you read my post from this afternoon you will see that. I'm merely saying that this is the sort of back up people were looking for given your stance and instance earlier.

Thanks

mumfordandsons

NickDrake wrote: »

We should concentrate our efforts into getting this sport clean. Then this means getting Contador out and not trying to keep him in.

spot on nick, fair play to yeh hold your on own here .

sick hearing drugs in cycling at this stage.
now i will have to explain why i watched tour when winner was doped, -
to non -cycling friends ect again.

funny how though they only bring up cycling when drugs are issue.

NickDrake

Thanks. Great to get some support on here. Means a lot

NickDrake

Good talk on Newstalk off the ball now. Journalist stating more likely a blood transfusion. Stating he made a mistake with it.

Also confirming new plastic test.

Also talking about UCI potential cover up etc and delay and German journalist who would have broken it.

Beasty

NickDrake wrote: »

Good talk on Newstalk off the ball now. Journalist stating more likely a blood transfusion. Stating he made a mistake with it.

Also confirming new plastic test.

Also talking about UCI potential cover up etc and delay and German journalist who would have broken it.

It's probably el tonto using your posts as his source:D

Diarmuid

NickDrake wrote: »

Thanks. Great to get some support on here. Means a lot

You make is sound like you are the lone voice in the wilderness proclaiming the doubts over Contador, Unfortunately plenty here, including many of the posters on this thread, have been highlighting doubts over him long before you've started posting on this foum. The reason for the negative sentiments towards you (not your stance on Contador) is your abrasive and annoying posts.

Deisetrek

mumfordandsons wrote: »

spot on nick, fair play to yeh hold your on own here .

sick hearing drugs in cycling at this stage.
now i will have to explain why i watched tour when winner was doped, -
to non -cycling friends ect again.

funny how though they only bring up cycling when drugs are issue.

Agree with you both as well , I love cycling as a pastime , love the freedom of heading out into the countryside , quality time to clear the 'ol head . NO time whatsoever for cycling as a sport ( Pro sport that is ) . Some lads on here are into the amateur racing , that is probably cycling sport in it's purest form . But the Pro cycling seems to me to be rotten to the core with no credibility . Just as I've long since stopped watching the Olympics over the years, I had no interest whatsoever in the TDF this year . I empathize, however with people on this forum who do follow the the Pro cycling sport , you must feel cheated on day's like these , me ? let the lot of 'em (drug cheats) go s***e , I'll still enjoy my spin on Saturday.

mickmcl09

For me the steak argument makes zero sense.

Consider that not all of the meat is digested by the human body ,40-50% of the meat is broken down, not absorbed and instead expelled by the human body.
The other half takes days to properly digest into the body. So how could they have got a reading suggesting drugs in his system from the consumption of meat, if the meat wasn't yet digested?

Angel dust usage in the late 80's was rife in Ireland, but testing at factory level, penalties for usage and human health effects meant it came and went in the beef industry fairly quickly. Beef enhancement through drug use is relatively easy to detect, hence even it's use in Spain, France etc would be highly unlightly. South Americas controls of same would be dramatically looser.

Put it this way, if Contador says it's definitely steak. Where's the farmer?
If he went to the trouble of bringing in Beef specially for his own palate, it definitly didn't come through a meat factory to start with but some local butcher in Pinto or where ever. Again, where's the farmer?

For a man so powerful within cycling, if it really was the steak, he'd have that farmer hung out to dry by this point.

But what's the problem if the levels detected are dramatically below levels that have been accepted up to now.

The question is was the level detected enough to enhance performance.
There's no proof. And if contador knowingly used the drug - at those levels it probably served more as a psychological enhancement rather than a physiological advantage.

irishmotorist

I caught the start of off-the-ball on Newstalk to night and the put it nicely. They said that of all the contaminants that can be found in food - e.g. salmonella, e-coli etc., a professional cyclist's food happened to contain a performance enhancing substance as a contaminant. What are the chances

Lumen

mickmcl09 wrote: »

The question is was the level detected enough to enhance performance. There's no proof. And if contador knowingly used the drug - at those levels it probably served more as a psychological enhancement rather than a physiological advantage.

I don't think performance enhancement of the steroid itself is the issue. From the links posted so far the levels were far too low to have any benefit.

The only possible options presented are food contamination or a rest day refill.

In the first case he's strictly liable but morally innocent, in the second he's totally screwed.

I'd imagine the testers will now be looking (if they haven't already) more closely at reticulocyte counts and all that guff from the blood samples taken around the time of the positive steroid sample.

mumfordandsons

Deisetrek wrote: »

Agree with you both as well , I love cycling as a pastime , love the freedom of heading out into the countryside , quality time to clear the 'ol head . NO time whatsoever for cycling as a sport ( Pro sport that is ) . Some lads on here are into the amateur racing , that is probably cycling sport in it's purest form . But the Pro cycling seems to me to be rotten to the core with no credibility . Just as I've long since stopped watching the Olympics over the years, I had no interest whatsoever in the TDF this year . I empathize, however with people on this forum who do follow the the Pro cycling sport , you must feel cheated on day's like these , me ? let the lot of 'em (drug cheats) go s***e , I'll still enjoy my spin on Saturday.

good to see still cycling yourself, i myself race and follow pro -racing but yeah i understand why u would stop watching.
cant understand how they can enjoying winning being doped.

dave2pvd

mickmcl09 wrote: »

But what's the problem if the levels detected are dramatically below levels that have been accepted up to now.

The question is was the level detected enough to enhance performance.
There's no proof. And if contador knowingly used the drug - at those levels it probably served more as a psychological enhancement rather than a physiological advantage.

The 'level' is irrelevant. He is positive for Clen. Positive is positive. Clen is a banned substance. He gets a 2 year ban and loses his TdF yellow.

irishmotorist

mickmcl09 wrote: »

The question is was the level detected enough to enhance performance.
There's no proof. And if contador knowingly used the drug - at those levels it probably served more as a psychological enhancement rather than a physiological advantage.

That's the only thing that actually gives me any doubt about guilt in this case. Is the amount found enough to cause any increase in performance? I haven't seen this answered earlier, but I could have missed it.

Contador knows he'll be tested and if there's something obvious like clenbuterol there it will be found. If the amount detected would give him, say, a 0.5% increase in performance, that's not much and the risks of getting caught far far outweigh any performance improvement. Why take a pointless amount of something that can be detected?

irishmotorist

Lumen wrote: »

The only possible options presented are food contamination or a rest day refill.

Probably my previous question answered. Regarding the rest day refill, are there any blood tests during the race? My understanding of the blood passport was that if there were any differences in blood, they'd be obvious. Is this done during a race like the Tour or just between races? If it's during a race, would he have a HCT of 42 at the end of stage A and suddenly after a rest day a HCT of 45 or something?

Chips Lovell

irishmotorist wrote: »

That's the only thing that actually gives me any doubt about guilt in this case. Is the amount found enough to cause any increase in performance? I haven't seen this answered earlier, but I could have missed it.

Contador knows he'll be tested and if there's something obvious like clenbuterol there it will be found. If the amount detected would give him, say, a 0.5% increase in performance, that's not much and the risks of getting caught far far outweigh any performance improvement. Why take a pointless amount of something that can be detected?

There's no way he took that amount of Clenbuterol during the Tour though. The likelihood is that if he was taking it, it was from a while before he drew off blood that was transfused during the Tour.

Either that or the food contamination, but if this plastics thing pans out, he's toast.

Chips Lovell

Just got a twenty minute lecture in Spanish on the phone about how Pat McQuaid and the UCI are killing cycling.

sxt

dave2pvd wrote: »

The 'level' is irrelevant. He is positive for Clen. Positive is positive. Clen is a banned substance. He gets a 2 year ban and loses his TdF yellow.

That is in a nutshell, a professional rider and his professional team, that I presume plan out his entire intinerary should know in an over paranoid way, exactly what is well within the rule framework...

NickDrake

irishmotorist wrote: »

Probably my previous question answered. Regarding the rest day refill, are there any blood tests during the race? My understanding of the blood passport was that if there were any differences in blood, they'd be obvious. Is this done during a race like the Tour or just between races? If it's during a race, would he have a HCT of 42 at the end of stage A and suddenly after a rest day a HCT of 45 or something?

Ya they take blood tests during the tour. But refills are used to bring HTC back up or keep it up around the 42/43.

There is lots of research done on this. That HCT should drop during the Tour. For example the crit of Armstrongs blood values in the 09 tour that actually went up which is pysically impossible to some scientists.

Just google that for an example.

The thing is Dr. Ferrari for example is a expert or how not too get caught under the passport. Riders will be using these experts to know when to do what etc. Really science involved here and is above our heads.

NickDrake

Diarmuid wrote: »

You make is sound like you are the lone voice in the wilderness proclaiming the doubts over Contador, Unfortunately plenty here, including many of the posters on this thread, have been highlighting doubts over him long before you've started posting on this foum. The reason for the negative sentiments towards you (not your stance on Contador) is your abrasive and annoying posts.

I am referring to the attack during the "incident" earlier. I was attacked there for my opinions on Contador along with my apparent annoyance. My opinions were also attacked by someone who is a big fan.

I will now apologise for my annoying posts but I am very passionate about this sport and to see a sporting icon winning the greatest sporting event in the world by cheating (maybe) is really sickening and if something you have believed was happening (doping) and had to look at his smile, finally came to our attention that your belief might be right.....then I went a bit mad and excited.


Annoying to some, although not everyone here, as I got some support. For that I apologise.

Now lets concentrate on getting the cheats out and not defend them

ROK ON

el tonto wrote: »

Just got a twenty minute lecture in Spanish on the phone about how Pat McQuaid and the UCI are killing cycling.

I guess thats the point in a way. Some cultures do not view this as seriously as others. For example, Pantani is idolised still in Italy, and AFAIK Valverde still has a significant amount of support in Spain.

Simply put different cultures have different priorities. This is not saying its a bad thing, just that its a thing.

What I'm getting at, is that for a guy like Mosquera for example, the gamble is that if caught the reputational damage can be low.
Like Paul Galvin losing the head on the football pitch, the average Kerry supporters respons is that the 'Dublin media' is out to get him.