Contador Suspended

petethedrummer

NickDrake wrote: »

Don't know much about this but the plastic compound is used in all blood bags. some special plastic.

They have found a way to detect this in blood. High levels therefore very suspicious

On a similar note. I worked in a plastic(PET) bottle factory as a student, the plastic gives off a gas(Acetaldehyde) which can affect the taste of coke in large enough quantities. Thats why coke tastes worst out of the small plastic bottles. We used to have to do tests to detect the level of this gas. So I'd well imagine that some particles or gas from a blood bag could be found in the contained blood.

NickDrake wrote: »

Thanks. Great to get some support on here. Means a lot

In the fight against doping I think it goes.
1. Kimmage,
2. Bassons,
3. Bike Pure,
4. NickDrake offa boards,
5. Greg Lemond.

Murph100

Actually even as a Corkman living in Kerry, I'd agree with the Kerry supporters, on that, and Eoin Cadogan should have got the ban for this years Galvin fracas, of course by saying ' this years Galvin fracas ' I've just shot myself in the foot :rolleyes:

But to bring this back on topic, yes there are geographically differing perceptions towards doping, Italy being one example where it is reputedly almost socially acceptable from club level up.

ROK ON wrote: »

Like Paul Galvin losing the head on the football pitch, the average Kerry supporters respons is that the 'Dublin media' is out to get him.

ednwireland

if there is a new test for plastics, how many more of the top 10 or 20 are going down ? I thought transfusions were fairly commonplace, though illegal.

don't kid yourself that amatuer races are clean 2nd level amatuer in uk tested for epo recently

also why have the UCI sat on this so long a(and ASO for that matter who arent know for holding back on tis stuff)

spyderski

dave2pvd wrote: »

The 'level' is irrelevant. He is positive for Clen. Positive is positive. Clen is a banned substance. He gets a 2 year ban and loses his TdF yellow.

Agree, unfortunately. "Angel Dust" (AKA clenbuterol) is now almost impossible to use in beef production in the EU. (probably as stringent testing as cycling), so he had to ingest it from somewhere else. The high level of plastics detected in the blood are a definite indicator of transfusion. I never really liked Contador, but its bad for him, and the sport in general.
Blaming Pat McQuaid is pointless. Admittedly he doesn't come across as the sharpest tool in the box, but he cant possibly be held accountable for doping in the pro ranks.

spyderski

petethedrummer wrote: »

On a similar note. I worked in a plastic(PET) bottle factory as a student, the plastic gives off a gas(Acetaldehyde) which can affect the taste of coke in large enough quantities. Thats why coke tastes worst out of the small plastic bottles.

At last, scientific proof of what I have always maintained, Coke tastes Sh1t out of plastic bottles!

ajk24

spyderski wrote: »

At last, scientific proof of what I have always maintained, Coke tastes Sh1t out of plastic bottles!

i find that mixing a large amount of jack daniels helps to mask the taste

IM0

wow 52 pages? that is all, as you were

fishfoodie

ednwireland wrote: »

if there is a new test for plastics, how many more of the top 10 or 20 are going down ? I thought transfusions were fairly commonplace, though illegal.

don't kid yourself that amatuer races are clean 2nd level amatuer in uk tested for epo recently

Sure wasn't the first real sight of EPO when a bunch of guys in junior ranks in Belgium started dying of heart attacks ?

Izoard

Wasn't these all the same arguements when Landis was caught after his epic stage to Morzine?

Amateurish to take testoserone in that form/no actual benefit on the day/it was the Jack Daniels etc...

The irony there is, Landis now claims he was juiced up on everything else except testoserone at that time.

manwithaplan

My Paul Galvin web monitoring equipment brought me here. What's going on? Am I allowed say "yerra"?

niceonetom

NickDrake wrote: »

I am referring to the attack during the "incident" earlier. I was attacked there for my opinions on Contador along with my apparent annoyance. My opinions were also attacked by someone who is a big fan.

I'm sorry to reopen this, but you've entirely missed the point and if we're really going to be able to get on with this it's important that you get it.

The divide was not between those who were 'pro-Contador' and those that are ''anti-Contador' but rather between those that wanted to discuss the issue in all its detail, explore the case, try to sketch out what might happen in the next few months, what defenses might be mounted and what science might be brought to bear against that and, on the other side, led, it seems by you, Nick, those who wished to simply shout "DOPER!" "I always knew it!" "DOPER!" "end of" "simple as!" "end of story!" "I can't believe we're even talking about this!".

Calling for a full and open trial does not equate to supporting the accused. Calling for the accused to be summarily lynched (as you metaphorically tend to do in such cases) does not make you a bigger fan, or a more passionate anti-doping campaigner, it just makes you seem ridiculous and slightly annoying. That's why people attacked you, and probably will continue until it seems like you understand why they do.

Thanks for bringing the plasticizer stuff to us though. A way of detecting autologous blood transfusions that doesn't rely on gamable reticulocyte counts is big news - on a par with EPO becoming directly detectable rather than just inferable from hemacrit. If this test becomes effective GT riding will change significantly for the dopers.

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

A way of detecting autologous blood transfusions that doesn't rely on gamable reticulocyte counts is big news - on a par with EPO becoming directly detectable rather than just inferable from hemacrit. If this test becomes effective GT riding will change significantly for the dopers.

Nah, they'll just use a different type of bag.

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

Nah, they'll just use a different type of bag.

True. But jam-jars full of blood will be a lot harder to pack into motorcycle panniers.

Chips Lovell

I presume you could do serious harm to yourself transfusing improperly stored blood

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

True. But jam-jars full of blood will be a lot harder to pack into motorcycle panniers.

Ten seconds of Googling found these.

Also, the plasticizer thing presumably means they'll have to remove "bad" plastics from the entire chain of evidence.

RobFowl

el tonto wrote: »

I presume you could do serious harm to yourself transfusing improperly stored blood

Septicaemia, anaphylaxis, kidney failure, liver failure, strokes, clots in your lungs/legs and possible death are all potential effects.....

ROK ON

So as long as one avoids having a tranfusion in an Irish hospital it should be safe.

RobFowl wrote: »

Septicaemia, anaphylaxis, kidney failure, liver failure, strokes, clots in your lungs/legs and possible death are all potential effects.....

TinyExplosions

spyderski wrote: »

Blaming Pat McQuaid is pointless. Admittedly he doesn't come across as the sharpest tool in the box, but he cant possibly be held accountable for doping in the pro ranks.

Pointless, but it is important in this case, as he really has no credibility left at this stage, and should really do the right thing and get out of there -he's the UCI's Biffo...

Lumen wrote: »

Ten seconds of Googling found these.

Also, the plasticizer thing presumably means they'll have to remove "bad" plastics from the entire chain of evidence.

So why aren't they using those kind of bags now, if the 'standard' ones are known to have plasticizers in them (simply from a safety/health point of view, not from a detection one?)

Also, cheers Nick for bringing this up -this is how you have a proper discussion, and if you'd simply said this the first time, there would have been no problems whatsoever!

fishfoodie

TinyExplosions wrote: »

So why aren't they using those kind of bags now, if the 'standard' ones are known to have plasticizers in them (simply from a safety/health point of view, not from a detection one?)

For most people receiving blood transfusions minuscule amounts of inert plastic aren't their main worry

English Bob

it saddened me yesterday when telling someone that I cycle they replied - "that has to be the dirtiest sport for junkies".
This was before I'd even heard about the current TDF winner.
If it is proven that Contador was cheating then an example needs to be made of him. The trouble is that this mud sticks and the more that gets chucked about reflects very badly on all cyclists, no matter what level they compete at.
If these tests prove positive without any margin for error then judgement can be made, however judging someone before all the tests and correct procedure has been completed is just serving to flame the fires of negativity surrounding our sport.

100Suns

If the plasticisers evidence stands up that settles it for me. A big 'IF' however as UCI, Saxo, Alberto will throw huge resources at discrediting this. Is this the first high profile positive which might be supported by such evidence? If so, it will be even more difficult to use it as a sustainable evidence base.

Going off topic for a moment, Lance must be p***in himself.:(

petethedrummer

English Bob wrote: »

it saddened me yesterday when telling someone that I cycle they replied - "that has to be the dirtiest sport for junkies"

Just show him this link
http://www.worldcupblog.org/world-football/french-team-doctor-puts-98-squad-on-doping-book-tour.html

or ask him to have a quick search through this site.
http://www.ukad.org.uk/violations/

Lumen

Critical Considerations in the Development of Blood Bags and Platelet Storage Bags

Lots of mention of the safety aspects of short term storage in blood bags (<7 days).

Also, "Jaegar and Rubin (1970) reported the leaching of DEHP into stored human blood". 1970? This is hardly news.

How do the cheats store blood for longer periods, e.g. from pre-season?

irishmotorist

RobFowl wrote: »

Septicaemia, anaphylaxis, kidney failure, liver failure, strokes, clots in your lungs/legs and possible death are all potential effects.....

Are these among the risks that all athletes who take different PEDs are subject to and prepared to take? Early EPO abuse killed a number of cyclists. Mr 60% thought it was worth it, but obviously hasn't died yet. Flo Jo and, I'm sure, other runners have died prematurely.

They are probably risks that are 'worth' taking, to win a pro race, much less a Grand Tour etc.

TinyExplosions

fishfoodie wrote: »

For most people receiving blood transfusions minuscule amounts of inert plastic aren't their main worry

Absolutely, but for cyclists they could be... I didn't mean anyone, I just specifically meant athletes, who may be getting more transfusions than the average punter...

mo_bhicycle

How long does the plastic stay in the blood?

Does the same thing happen with a drip?

bcmf

I stopped reading at page 9 or something. But I did find this amusing.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/tour-de-france-bans-terry%11thomas-201009303129/

Personally Terry Thomas Is my favourite actor of all time and it would be a huge injustice to see him expelled.
;)

c0rk3r

Well this makes a mockery of the fantasy tour de france results. I want a do - over and bumped up a few places !

Jawgap

Lucky for Mick Murphy they weren't using Clenbuterol in cattle or testing riders for it in the 50s!!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056048348

victorcarrera

Jawgap wrote: »

From a Teagasc Research Paper:-

"Serious incidences of poisoning occurred due to very high levels of the beta-agonist clenbuterol in beef and veal liver in Spain and France,

respectively (Martinez-Navarro, 1990; Pulce et al., 1991). A study carried out by the European Consumers Associations in 1994 on retail-purchased liver in all countries within the EU found residue-positive samples at high numbers in some countries: Spain 36%, Belgium 23%, France 13%, The Netherlands 10% (Remy and Debeuckelaere, 1994)."

He should've eaten Irish beef - 1,181 samples tested in 2009 for beta-agonists, no failures. The failure rate for Europe was about 0.6% of bovines tested.

To put Contador's result in context 50 picograms is about 40,000 times less than the limit of detection used in most food labs - depending on the kinetics of the substance, it's quite possible he ate beef that was "fine" but still had sufficient clenbuterol present to contaminate him.....

[FONT=Arial,Bold]
[/FONT]

If we can get this level of information on a cycling forum, I wonder why all the pro team medical and pharmacology experts haven't banned their riders from consuming beef as a precaution. Fish is obviously clean and I don't think it is economically viable to treat lamb or pork with it.
Or is it that they did know that they could use it as a cover up if they were caught?

TinyExplosions

victorcarrera wrote: »

If we can get this level of information on a cycling forum, I wonder why all the pro team medical and pharmacology experts haven't banned their riders from consuming beef as a precaution. Fish is obviously clean and I don't think it is economically viable to treat lamb or pork with it.
Or is it that they did know that they could use it as a cover up if they were caught?

Doesn't fish have the chance of containing Mercury or something... nothing's safe!

They should find a way of including EPO in steak...

goldencleric

English Bob wrote: »

it saddened me yesterday when telling someone that I cycle they replied - "that has to be the dirtiest sport for junkies".

I'm of the opinion that it's the sport whose governing body does the most to combat drugs - therefore people hear a lot more about it in the media

... am I right?

Beasty

bcmf wrote: »

I stopped reading at page 9 or something. But I did find this amusing.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/tour-de-france-bans-terry%11thomas-201009303129/

Personally Terry Thomas Is my favourite actor of all time and it would be a huge injustice to see him expelled.
;)

Terry Thomas died over 20 years ago - I think they must be getting him confused with our old friend Tammy Thomas:

victorcarrera

English Bob wrote: »

it saddened me yesterday when telling someone that I cycle they replied - "that has to be the dirtiest sport for junkies".
..... The trouble is that this mud sticks and the more that gets chucked about reflects very badly on all cyclists, no matter what level they compete at.
....negativity surrounding our sport.

Drug abusers compete in a world of their own.
Generally for me the world of physical sport stops at the top national amateur level where I believe most participants wouldn't have the financial resources to cheat and get away with it.
The rest imo is just a circus and soap opera and I watch pro cycling, boxing and football with that in mind. I intend watching the World Championship on Sunday for its entertainment value alone but if any (+)'s are found subsequently I won't be disappointed or surprised because thats not and activity I would like to partake in, compare myself to, or put my sons into.

Jawgap

victorcarrera wrote: »

If we can get this level of information on a cycling forum, I wonder why all the pro team medical and pharmacology experts haven't banned their riders from consuming beef as a precaution. Fish is obviously clean and I don't think it is economically viable to treat lamb or pork with it.
Or is it that they did know that they could use it as a cover up if they were caught?

I think the levels at which they are a testing down to now are phenomenal - I'd say it must be great to be a doctoral candidate or post-doc in those labs.

Fish, particularly freshwater fish, have a habit of hoovering up hormones - at the levels the labs are testing down to now, I'd say a couple of decent salmon steaks would be enough to make the machine that goes ping, go ping:)

Also, steroids are used in pork and sheep production and at a cursory glance of the figures, the failure rates for steroids in sheep, pork and poultry are higher than for clenbuterol in beef.

Wild game looks fine.......and honey - difficult to get bees to take clenbuterol and they're tricky to inject:)

Chips Lovell

L'Equipe has a story on the transfusions and plastics side of thing today and adds a few more details. Not looking good for Contador, but the fact that the test hasn't been validated yet could complicate things:

L’Équipe adds that Segura’s method, details of which were published in 2009, has not yet been validated by the anti-doping authorities and will require further testing before it can be ratified

Apparently, they're also scouring his bio passport.

n-dawg

Hey

I hope im not reposting this but I have tried to do a good search, the problem is people changing a link to read as part of a sentence

http://martinbudden.wordpress.com/

In it he carefully discusses the concentrations of clenbuterol found in contadors system. While his discussion certainly doesn't rule out blood doping his defence of eating a "dodgy" steak certainly holds up from a numbers point of view.

It really is incredible the concentrations that these test can now detect. As others have mentioned soon cyclists wont be able to eat anything for fear of what might be contained in it, even in minuscule amounts

RobFowl

el tonto wrote: »

L'Equipe has a story on the transfusions and plastics side of thing today and adds a few more details. Not looking good for Contador, but the fact that the test hasn't been validated yet could complicate things:



Apparently, they're also scouring his bio passport.

I suspect he had bloods tests checked a good few times during the race so would be interesting to see if his haematocrit went down as it would normally be expected to......

victorcarrera

The diethylhexyl discovery might be explained if they can find a bidon or gel wrapper with the same chemical compound.

Courtesy of US National Institute of Environmental Health Services.

Diethylhexyl phthalate (DEHP) is an industrial plasticizer used in cosmetics, medical devices, food packaging, and other applications.

ednwireland

n-dawg wrote: »

It really is incredible the concentrations that these test can now detect. As others have mentioned soon cyclists wont be able to eat anything for fear of what might be contained in it, even in minuscule amounts

my other half teaches in an institute of technology and they were been demoed a machine that they want to buy and its a 100 times more sensitive than that lcms
they were also demoed machines that i used to use whcih we need a room for 15 years ago are now desktop :eek:

irishmotorist

victorcarrera wrote: »

The diethylhexyl discovery might be explained if they can find a bidon or gel wrapper with the same chemical compound.

Courtesy of US National Institute of Environmental Health Services.

If it's a standard piece of kit/food, then it's absence or presence among other cyclists would be much more provable than who else might have eaten a steak one night 3 months ago.

victorcarrera

irishmotorist wrote: »

If it's a standard piece of kit/food, then it's absence or presence among other cyclists would be much more provable than who else might have eaten a steak one night 3 months ago.

The absence of the plastic in other riders samples might be significant but its widespread presence in the peloton would be inconclusive because it may have been injested illegally from doping bags, or legally from nutritional packaging.
Anyone on here know where I can get a cheap drug test done?
I fear I may have to forfeit all my sportive medals and certs, and try and get myself clean for next years WW100.;)

petethedrummer

victorcarrera wrote: »

it may have been injested illegally from doping bags, or legally from nutritional packaging.

Would plastics make their way from a wrapper, through your digestive system and into the bloodstream?

Orizio

The below blog has two analytical articles of the Contador doping controversy:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/

drogdub

interesting article here from cyclingnews

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chavanel-says-contador-must-prove-his-innocence

In my opinion, journalists, fans and non-fans can speculate all they want but if riders are saying things like "Right now, amongst the riders, I can tell you that we’re not that shocked.” and "We’re not unduly surprised. A little [surprised] about the Clenbuterol because we’d really have expected something else." Then there must be something to Contador being a doper, because I reckon that the riders know who is clean and who isn't.

RobFowl

drogdub wrote: »

interesting article here from cyclingnews

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chavanel-says-contador-must-prove-his-innocence

In my opinion, journalists, fans and non-fans can speculate all they want but if riders are saying things like "Right now, amongst the riders, I can tell you that we’re not that shocked.” and "We’re not unduly surprised. A little [surprised] about the Clenbuterol because we’d really have expected something else." Then there must be something to Contador being a doper, because I reckon that the riders know who is clean and who isn't.

Have to say his choice of team's is unfortunate to say the least...

2010

Astana
PRT

2009

Astana
PRT

2008

Astana
PRT

2007

Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team
PRT

2006

Astana - Würth Team
PRT

2005

Liberty Seguros - Würth Team
PRT

2004

Liberty Seguros
TT1

2003

ONCE - Eroski
TT1

2002

ONCE - Eroski
TT1

Diarmuid

Contrast Chavanel's reaction with Schleck's and Cancellera's. Says a lot IMHO

mcgratheoin

RobFowl wrote: »

Have to say his choice of team's is unfortunate deliberate to say the least...

Fixed your post there...

Quigs Snr

Diarmuid wrote: »

Contrast Chavanel's reaction with Schleck's and Cancellera's. Says a lot IMHO

That is interesting though isn't it. Far more damning in my eyes than the scientific results so far. It looks like it could be curtains for Bertie. Good, serves him right for not even having the decency to make it believeable in the 2009 tour during the TT.

drogdub

Diarmuid wrote: »

Contrast Chavanel's reaction with Schleck's and Cancellera's. Says a lot IMHO

What was their reaction?