Final Anglo bailout cost set at minimum of €29.3bn

fontanalis

randy hickey wrote: »

I refuse to leave.
I make no apology for loving my country.
The bastards that have raped our economy into the ground are treasonous vermin.May they get all that they deserve.

It will be re-election unfortunately!

johnol173

i know its slow but it is going to happen soon We won't get ****ed around for ever.

galwayrush

Plenty of construction jobs on the way, we're going to need more prisons to punish the people who won't be able to pay their extra taxes.:rolleyes:

johnol173

johnol173 wrote: »

i want to get active. Thats why i signed up for this site.

Amen to that. I just today passed the point where all i'll do is moan, i'm ready to get on the street and protest, all i need is an outlet. I'm sick to the back teeth of this shower. I didn't vote for them and never will, and i've watched them destroy the country i love for long enough without doing anything about it.

For the sake of my unborn kids future and the sake of being a father that they can be proud of who didn't just sit and watch it all happen but tried to get out and do something about it, i feel like i have to act.

ken2010

its a ****ing jokes alright
riot all the way...the country in **** and there takening extra holidays
if anything that fat lump should working twice as hard

mikerowsopht wrote: »

Us Irish are the real idiots, why aren't we rioting in town like 1916 ?
I don't understand this at all.

I don't want to see any of them in power at all

FF
FG
labour
greens

they're all muppets

why don't we just not pay the debt and call it a day, Greece & Iceland seemed to do that.

who cares if we can't borrow ever again, that's the problem in the first place, borrowing from other countries.

I know I'm talking sh!te but I'm just so furious I can't speak properly

Why don't we all meet outside the Dail and citizen arrest all of them and throw away the key, seize they're assests.

Fitzpatrick gave 3 mil to his wife so they can't touch it, madness.

PrincessLola

We could default like Iceland?
But I was born in the 90s so this whole thing is a bit of a mindfock to me:(
Depressing and scary..

Voodoo_rasher

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I'm emwhat's worse than the fact that this is actually happening, is that we're LETTING it happening. Why aren't you doing anything? Why isn't anyone doing anything?
I have to move abroad next month anyway for other reasons but why isn't anyone getting f**king active?

'cos everyday 700,000 of us have MORTAGES to pay. population is 'castrated'

ebbsy

PrincessLola wrote: »

We could default like Iceland?
But I was born in the 90s so this whole thing is a bit of a mindfock to me:(
Depressing and scary..

The 80's was worse.

admiralofthefleet

me and the missus were talking about this earlier, the country is literally on the brink so we are strongly considering getting out

fontanalis

ebbsy wrote: »

The 80's was worse.

How much debt was there in the 80's?

J K

fontanalis wrote: »

How much debt was there in the 80's?

Around 26 bn. which was roughly the gnp.
this is the same as now where gnp = national debt

Wibbs

ebbsy wrote: »

The 80's was worse.

As fontalis has said, no it wasn't because we had little or no debt by comparison and our earnings could keep up with it.

Like I said earlier in the thread, imagine a man with crappy wages or on the dole. Money's tight and he can't afford lots of stuff, but when his pocket is empty that's it. Then take same man and give him a slightly better job, but also give him a credit card. Keep increasing his limit. Then he buys lots of nice shiny things. Then one day the bank ask for their money back. His wages haven't changed, but he now has debts he can't hope to pay back, so he pays off the interest and bugger all of the principle and is indebted to the bank for the rest of his life. The first man is the 80's, the second man is today. Big diff. He may appear to have the trappings of money but he's much worse off.

stepbar

Holy Christ all this negative talk is making me want to slit my wrists.... Look we are where are, people need to be jailed etc. But ffs we aren't helping ourselves by being negative because it won't get us anywhere. We can only make the best of what we have and ffs let's give it a shot. There are no magic wands and no one is going to cone in and magically write a chq. Yes people need to be jailed but the nation needs to move on.... and try and solve the issues that face us. I still believe in Ireland despite the all the **** that is happening at the moment. Let's start again and this time learn from our collective mistakes.

stepbar

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

'cos everyday 700,000 of us have MORTAGES to pay. population is 'castrated'

No one forced 700k to sign a loan agreement. It's time people accepted responcibility and moved the **** on. First thing we should start with is getting the government out and ensuring they don't get back until the next millennium. After that it's up to ourselves what we want to do.

J K

J K wrote: »

Around 26 bn. which was roughly the gnp.
this is the same as now where gnp = national debt

It's worse now. The 80's recession wasn't built on the easy availability of credit like this one was. Not only is the country as broke as it was then but the people in it are all carrying huge levels of personal debt, car loans, negative equity mortgages, credit cards, etc. We're as broke as we were then but we're deep in the red as well. If there's one thing worse than being broke, it's being broke with lots of bills to pay.

Also, just a small second point, but there's a difference between GNP and GDP. GDP equals GNP minus foreign multinational profits that flow out of Ireland. Those are a big part of modern ireland's GNP, which they weren't in the eighties, so in terms of our domestic earning power as a nation, even before you take our individual private debt into account we're still worse off than we were the last time round.

bleg

stepbar wrote: »

Holy Christ all this negative talk is making me want to slit my wrists.... Look we are where are, people need to be jailed etc. But ffs we aren't helping ourselves by being negative because it won't get us anywhere. We can only make the best of what we have and ffs let's give it a shot. There are no magic wands and no one is going to cone in and magically write a chq. Yes people need to be jailed but the nation needs to move on.... and try and solve the issues that face us. I still believe in Ireland despite the all the **** that is happening at the moment. Let's start again and this time learn from our collective mistakes.

No. We can't just click our fingers and forget about it. There is a process that we have to go through, part of that process is making things right before we start anything new. We need to analyse what happened so it doesn't happen again.

Sticky_Fingers

stepbar wrote: »

Holy Christ all this negative talk is making me want to slit my wrists.... Look we are where are, people need to be jailed etc. But ffs we aren't helping ourselves by being negative because it won't get us anywhere. We can only make the best of what we have and ffs let's give it a shot. There are no magic wands and no one is going to cone in and magically write a chq. Yes people need to be jailed but the nation needs to move on.... and try and solve the issues that face us. I still believe in Ireland despite the all the **** that is happening at the moment. Let's start again and this time learn from our collective mistakes.

As you said theres no magic wand that we can wave so all this will go away but we have few (if any) options left open to us. As much as this pains me to say this country's economy is dead and the sooner the plug is pulled the better for us all. We cannot afford to bills required to maintain the illusion that some spark of life remains in the corpse.

While many people believe in miracles I don't think Biffo and Lenny are going to get the one they are praying for. I'm not trying to be negative but that is the situation as I see it and the sooner we accept the reality the better, its game over.

stepbar

bleg wrote: »

No. We can't just click our fingers and forget about it. There is a process that we have to go through, part of that process is making things right before we start anything new. We need to analyse what happened so it doesn't happen again.

That's exactly why people need to be jailed. That process cannot and will not stop the people of the nation rising up and starting again. Otherwise we might as well lock the door and throw away the key

stepbar

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

As you said theres no magic wand that we can wave so all this will go away but we have few (if any) options left open to us. As much as this pains me to say this country's economy is dead and the sooner the plug is pulled the better for us all. We cannot afford to bills required to maintain the illusion that some spark of life remains in the corpse.

While many people believe in miracles I don't think Biffo and Lenny are going to get the one they are praying for. I'm not trying to be negative but that is the situation as I see it and the sooner we accept the reality the better, its game over.

We're 2 years into this process and we still haven't taken the pain. Contrast the us approach. Most of their banks took the pain up front and are now making profits again. Ireland.... We're only deluding ourselves... It's time the government told the bond holders in Anglo to **** off... Tough luck lads you lost... See you again someday.

seadnamac

stepbar wrote: »

We're 2 years into this process and we still haven't taken the pain. Contrast the us approach. Most of their banks took the pain up front and are now making profits again. Ireland.... We're only deluding ourselves... It's time the government told the bond holders in Anglo to **** off... Tough luck lads you lost... See you again someday.

What are the differences between the US approach and what we have done/are doing? (Serious question, not trying to catch you out or anything).

bleg

stepbar wrote: »

We're 2 years into this process and we still haven't taken the pain. Contrast the us approach. Most of their banks took the pain up front and are now making profits again. Ireland.... We're only deluding ourselves... It's time the government told the bond holders in Anglo to **** off... Tough luck lads you lost... See you again someday.

Exactly. The fact that the 24,300,000,000 is preceded by "minimum of" means that they're still living in cloud cuckoo land. There still isn't a line put under Anglo. We can't move on.

bleg

seadnamac wrote: »

What are the differences between the US approach and what we have done/are doing? (Serious question, not trying to catch you out or anything).

Generally, they let the gamblers go to the wall instead of bailing them out.

galwayrush

seadnamac wrote: »

What are the differences between the US approach and what we have done/are doing? (Serious question, not trying to catch you out or anything).

The US Government didn't bail out their friends like FF did.
Take NAMA for eg, i know one person in it, he's over the moon. From facing bankruptcy, NAMA are now paying him a salary to run his loss making company....another tough FF decision. Yes, he was a regular at the FF tent at the Galway Races.

J K

bleg wrote: »

Generally, they let the gamblers go to the wall instead of bailing them out.

Difference here...
Our Gamblers own the govt.

Bought and Paid for.

OPENROAD

galwayrush wrote: »

The US Government didn't bail out their friends like FF did.
Take NAMA for eg, i know one person in it, he's over the moon. From facing bankruptcy, NAMA are now paying him a salary to run his loss making company....another tough FF decision. Yes, he was a regular at the FF tent at the Galway Races.

Are you referring to the banks and Bondholders?

Sticky_Fingers

stepbar wrote: »

We're 2 years into this process and we still haven't taken the pain.

+1, it is a travesty that this farce has been allowed to continue so long. We should be 2 years into the "real" depression that this country has to face if the government hadn't made things worse by tinkering with the banking system in a vain attempt to fudge the numbers so that we could avoid the economic correction that it so obviously needed.

stepbar

They let a number of banks fail the more notible one being Lehman (although not a bank per se). Why didn't the gov let Anglo and Nationwide fail? Systemic my arse. Systemic in my opinion is a bank where you can walk into and withdraw money cash in hand. The us gov let banks fail. They jailed people taxed bonuses at a 90% rate (from memory). Instead Ireland decided to prolong the pain like keeping a dead person on life support. Ha ha ha we're different... Soft landing yada yada.... It sickens me TBH.

OPENROAD

stepbar wrote: »

They let a number of banks fail the more notible one being Lehman (although not a bank per se). Why didn't the gov let Anglo and Nationwide fail? Systemic my arse. Systemic in my opinion is a bank where you can walk into and withdraw money cash in hand. The us gov let banks fail. They jailed people taxed bonuses at a 90% rate (from memory). Instead Ireland decided to prolong the pain like keeping a dead person on life support. Ha ha ha we're different... Soft landing yada yada.... It sickens me TBH.

Which many believe was a mistake and made things worse

galwayrush

OPENROAD wrote: »

Are you referring to the banks and Bondholders?

Friends of FF who were Systemic to the party. :rolleyes:

ragg

bleg wrote: »

Generally, they let the gamblers go to the wall instead of bailing them out.

No they let Lehmans go (The biggest mistake of our generation, it was the catalyst the started all this), the reason was because they had a republican government who couldn't\wouldn't\didn't have enough time to make a call that was so fundamentally against their ethos (you think we have civil war politics the yanks have that * 1,000,000) they then spent the next two years nationalisning all round them.
The US is in a period of depression worse than the "great" depression and it's not ending anytime soon. Their national debt is so much that to write it on the internet is meaningless as none of us have the mental capacity to understand numbers that big

hotmail.com

Lenihan will appear on Tonight with Vincent Browne tonight at 11.05.

Should be interesting viewing - if anything to see his style of interviewing compared with RTE's "talent".

stepbar

OPENROAD wrote: »

Which many believe was a mistake and made things worse

For who? The bond holders? **** them. Bond holders are supposed to be professional investors. They know the risks involved. Contrast Anglo and Nationwide... A pair of zombie banks who don't even provide basic banking services to the public... **** them they can go to hell ....

SEPT 23 1989

hotmail.com wrote: »

Lenihan will appear on Tonight with Vincent Browne tonight at 11.05.

Should be interesting viewing - if anything to see his style of interviewing compared with RTE's "talent".

Vinnie will go to town on him:pac:

bleg

ragg wrote: »

No they let Lehmans go (The biggest mistake of our generation, it was the catalyst the started all this),

Gerrout of it Bertie!

OPENROAD

stepbar wrote: »

For who? The bond holders? **** them. Bond holders are supposed to be professional investors. They know the risks involved. Contrast Anglo and Nationwide... A pair of zombie banks who don't even provide basic banking services to the public... **** them they can go to hell ....

If we say **** the bondholders here, how do you think we are currently running the country on a day to day basis, you do know that we are currently borrowing huge amounts from them to keep the country afloat, you let the banks fail, it is not simply a case of saying let them fail= no cost. By the way I fully understand your anger, I really wished I had not watched Prime Time tonight

stepbar

ragg wrote: »

No they let Lehmans go (The biggest mistake of our generation, it was the catalyst the started all this), the reason was because they had a republican government who couldn't\wouldn't\didn't have enough time to make a call that was so fundamentally against their ethos (you think we have civil war politics the yanks have that * 1,000,000) they then spent the next two years nationalisning all round them.
The US is in a period of depression worse than the "great" depression and it's not ending anytime soon. Their national debt is so much that to write it on the internet is meaningless as none of us have the mental capacity to understand numbers that big

Sorry the catalyst that started it all was subprime and Lehman was a byproduct of same. Lehman failed because they invested in ****ty packaged up subprime bonds. And for that they deserved to fail.

spockety

stepbar wrote: »

For who? The bond holders? **** them. Bond holders are supposed to be professional investors. They know the risks involved. Contrast Anglo and Nationwide... A pair of zombie banks who don't even provide basic banking services to the public... **** them they can go to hell ....

"The bondholders" is a red herring. People have an image of big German/British/French investment houses pouring the money in.

The big unspoken issue is that the "bondholders" in Anglo are actually Irish pension funds, and the other Irish banks.

We are truly flutered either way.

spockety

OPENROAD wrote: »

If we say **** the bondholders here, how do you think we are currently running the country on a day to day basis, you do know that we are currently borrowing huge amounts from them to keep the country afloat, you let the banks fail, it is not simply a case of saying let them fail= no cost. By the way I fully understand your anger, I really wished I had not watched Prime Time tonight

The Irish State should not be picking up the tab for private bank bondholders in principle. The buyers of Anglo bonds were not investing in sovereign bonds.

We'd probably actually give more confidence to "de markets" if we let Anglo fail, as it would mean we as a State are in a better financial position to repay our sovereign debt.

stepbar

OPENROAD wrote: »

If we say **** the bondholders here, how do you think we are currently running the country on a day to day basis, you do know that we are currently borrowing huge amounts from them to keep the country afloat, you let the banks fail, it is not simply a case of saying let them fail= no cost. By the way I fully understand your anger, I really wished I had not watched Prime Time tonight

We should have told the bond holders go fcuk off 2 years ago prior to both banks becoming nationalised. Problem is now the state is now responsible and as such this is effecting our capacity to borrow at reasonable rates.

bleg

spockety wrote: »

"The bondholders" is a red herring. People have an image of big German/British/French investment houses pouring the money in.

The big unspoken issue is that the "bondholders" in Anglo are actually Irish pension funds, and the other Irish banks.

We are truly flutered either way.

Include credit unions in that lot.

ragg

stepbar wrote: »

For who? The bond holders?

The Entire Global Banking system

Do you not remember thoese times? Remeber russias banks were losing that much money, that russia clsoed it's stockmarkets for days so as not to deal with the problem - Champions that they are

OPENROAD

stepbar wrote: »

We should have told the bond holders go fcuk off 2 years ago prior to both banks becoming nationalised. Problem is now the state is now responsible and as such this is effecting our capacity to borrow at reasonable rates.

It really doesn't work like that though as much as I can understand why you feel like that, the real thing that angers me was the lack of regulation and the lack of accountability there appears to be from those whose job it was to prevent this from happening

stepbar

Russia took the pain years ago and are now on a sound financial footing again. They took the pain and are now prospering.

OPENROAD

spockety wrote: »

The Irish State should not be picking up the tab for private bank bondholders in principle. The buyers of Anglo bonds were not investing in sovereign bonds.

We'd probably actually give more confidence to "de markets" if we let Anglo fail, as it would mean we as a State are in a better financial position to repay our sovereign debt.

Ok We let it fail thereby letting the bondholders fail, there is still a HUGE cost, how do we pay the cost, cause nobody will lend to a country that does not pay its debts. You lend somebody 100 euro, he does not pay you back, he comes along to you later asking for another 100 Euro, are you seriously going to lend to him. I may have the situation wrong here, but that is my understanding of the situation.

stepbar

OPENROAD wrote: »

It really doesn't work like that though as much as I can understand why you feel like that, the real thing that angers me was the lack of regulation and the lack of accountability there appears to be from those whose job it was to prevent this from happening

And why doesn't it 'work like that'? the Government shouldn't be responsible for poor investment decisions.

ragg

stepbar wrote: »

Sorry the catalyst that started it all was subprime and Lehman was a byproduct of same. Lehman failed because they invested in ****ty packaged up subprime bonds. And for that they deserved to fail.

I think you don't understand fully the situation. SubPrime refers to the way a mortgage was sold. Basically, without the lender following due diligience. No one bought into this per se, the bad debt was packaged up with the good and sold to other banks. No bank went out to buy this, but there was too much trust \ recklessness. This type of debt was sold all round the world. I'm not sure if you have pension, but if you do, chances are very high your pension fund managers bought this debt, does that mean you deserve to fail?

breanach

we should take to the streets like the french and stop sitting at home writing on this sites

F^^kers have done the hole country out money and they still give scumbags there golden hand shakes and golden paracutes.

we are the only country that lets a ministers past a present, rob us day in day out(ivor callely and that fat p***k( from kerry and the normal person cant owe a penny and he has a letter from some agency demanding it back.

All the politicians do is lie to us, so they can hang on to their jobs, and get their fat pensions.

ragg

stepbar wrote: »

Russia took the pain years ago and are now on a sound financial footing again. They took the pain and are now prospering.

Proof or GTFO

spockety

OPENROAD wrote: »

Ok We let it fail thereby letting the bondholders fail, there is still a HUGE cost, how do we pay the cost, cause nobody will lend to a country that does not pay its debts. You lend somebody 100 euro, he does not pay you back, he comes along to you later asking for another 100 Euro, are you seriously going to lend to him. I may have the situation wrong here, but that is my understanding of the situation.

Anglo Irish Bank is not Ireland.

Someone lends 100 quid to Anglo. Anglo don't pay it back. Person goes to Ireland and says "hey, I lent Anglo Irish Bank 100 quid and they never gave it back". Ireland says, "Er, Anglo Irish Bank are a private company and you have your own unique and special relationship with them which we are not going to get involved in".

Someone lends 100 quid to Ireland. Ireland can pay it back, because they're financially sound as they don't have the burden of a 50bn bank bailout. Person likes Ireland and is happy to loan more money to Ireland.

As I said, it's how it should be in principle. Unfortunately as I said in a previous post, the bondholders in Anglo are big Irish pension funds, and the other major Irish banks. So we are truly f****d either way.

OPENROAD

stepbar wrote: »

And why doesn't it 'work like that'? the Government shouldn't be responsible for poor investment decisions.

So how do we run the country then, who pays public sector wages? who will lend to us to run the country?