Budget to be tougher!

murphaph

snaps wrote: »

This country really seems to be on its knees now. Its getting worrying. 1st time in my life i have been worried about the future.

That's actually a good thing in many ways. The last decade has been a fantasy..people living like there was no tomorrow. Perhaps a dose of fiscal reality is no bad thing for a lot of people.

tunney

deise blue wrote: »

Fairest in that a progressive tax system will ensure that those who earn least will pay least tax whilst those who earn more pay more tax no matter what sector they work in.

Would you agree that this is what the Government are most likely to deliver in the budget ?

But your post was "fair" - as in "fair in that the PS will be left only in terms of pay"

Owen

Please please please let them lay off the motorist for one year. I've had enough for a while between fuel increases, motor tax increases, new tolls, etc. Just once make life for the average petrolhead a bit easier, or I will speed up my inevitable emigration.

deise blue

tunney wrote: »

But your post was "fair" - as in "fair in that the PS will be left only in terms of pay"

I'm sorry but I cannot make sense of your post.

jprender

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Please please please let them lay off the motorist for one year. I've had enough for a while between fuel increases, motor tax increases, new tolls, etc. Just once make life for the average petrolhead a bit easier, or I will speed up my inevitable emigration.

Yes, everybody should be hit except for the motorist this time around :rolleyes:

Don't worry, you'll be alright, Jack.

Max Power1

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Please please please let them lay off the motorist for one year. I've had enough for a while between fuel increases, motor tax increases, new tolls, etc. Just once make life for the average petrolhead a bit easier, or I will speed up my inevitable emigration.

I can definitly see the emmissions based system rates being increased. I would imagine that the older CC based system would be left untouched as the rates are higher on that system.

Max Power1

jprender wrote: »

Yes, everybody should be hit except for the motorist this time around :rolleyes:

Don't worry, you'll be alright, Jack.

Any further increases on motor taxes and duties (apart from the emmission based rates which will surely be increased) will render many people unable to afford to drive to work. It would not be a smart decision.

ei.sdraob

I think they will slap more taxes for EVERYONE public or private

of course it would hurt the public sector more since they earn more for most part

oh well be funny seeing the tax the rich backfire when this crowd realise that they are relatively richer and more secure

Owen

Well, here's hoping they do away with Motor Tax and add a small levy onto Fuel as proposed recently. That would mean the second car I have which does <1000 miles a year will be much more easy on the pocket, and my main car which does <6000 a year would be easy too.

changes

Increase motor tax on post 08 cars
Property tax of €500 per year on everyone who bought before 2005
Cut dole by 5%
Cut pensions by 5%
3rd Rate of tax

gurramok

RoverJames wrote: »

How are people on the dole then expected to have a roof over their head ?

Don't be silly. They will still have a roof over their heads. The poster said reduce the subsidy, not scrap it.

The govt control 50% of the private rental market, there will not be 50% evictions if they reduce the RA rates as LL's need the cash rather than leaving their places empty.

thebman

gurramok wrote: »

Don't be silly. They will still have a roof over their heads. The poster said reduce the subsidy, not scrap it.

The govt control 50% of the private rental market, there will not be 50% evictions if they reduce the RA rates as LL's need the cash rather than leaving their places empty.

Even if there are 50% eviction rates, they will be evicted onto a wide open property market as the houses with people evicted from go back on the market looking for more people to rent.

Its a renters market but not when the government is funding it and propping it up.

There are surplus rental properties around already so people could move already if evicted and many of the people with already empty rental properties would jump at the chance to get an empty room filled to help pay the mortgage.

Again there is no shortage of places to rent, there is only a government artificially propping up a market. Reduce it by 50 euro and watch rents and thus cost of living fall for everyone in the economy. Only people that are landlords for their jobs will be negatively effected and the government shouldn't be borrowing to keep them in the lives their accustomed to.

Godge

There are a few areas of the economy that have escaped relatively untouched so far. The public and civil service have seen temporary workers let go, pay cuts and the pension levy while private sector workers have seen pay cuts, redundancies and changes to their pension schems. Small business owners have seen their revenues collapse while for many their dreams of being property magnates go up in smoke. Self-employed tradesmen have also been hammered. So who has escaped relatively easily?

Commercial Semi-State Workers: No pension levy or pay cuts in ESB, CIE, An Post, Bord Gais, Bord Na Mona, Dublin Port Company etc. We really need to see a reduction in the prices charged by these semi-state companies and that means employees there need to share the pain the rest of us have suffered.

Pensioners: No cut in pension rates, no cut in civil service pensioners (even though those still at work were cut) meaning some civil servants are better off retired. No change in extra benefits (other than medical cards for those reaching 70). No change in favourable tax arrangements. At the very least taxation of pensioners should be brought in line with the rest of the population so that those pensioners (Fingleton, Neary etc) with gilt-edged pensions pay the same tax as everyone else.

Professionals: Despite the wolf cries, there has been little or no reduction in the fees charged by accountants, solicitors, barristers, doctors, dentists, psychiatrists and psychologists (the latter two have probably seen a large increase in business) while the number of pharmacies has grown despite Harney's attempts to cut costs. Like the semi-states, if this country is to ever recover, we need to see the prices of these services come down sharply.

OK, some of these are not within Brian Lenihan's control on budget day but if you want a strategy for growth, go after some of these things.

Godge

thebman wrote: »

Even if there are 50% eviction rates, they will be evicted onto a wide open property market as the houses with people evicted from go back on the market looking for more people to rent.

Its a renters market but not when the government is funding it and propping it up.

There are surplus rental properties around already so people could move already if evicted and many of the people with already empty rental properties would jump at the chance to get an empty room filled to help pay the mortgage.

Again there is no shortage of places to rent, there is only a government artificially propping up a market. Reduce it by 50 euro and watch rents and thus cost of living fall for everyone in the economy. Only people that are landlords for their jobs will be negatively effected and the government shouldn't be borrowing to keep them in the lives their accustomed to.

This is a very good idea to save money. While there will be disruption to many people who would have to move house, now is one of the few times you could do it because of the large number of empty properties.

ninty9er

daltonm wrote: »

It simply cannot be the case that the private sector and the social welfare take cuts and the PS remain untouched.

As someone who sees the public sector as a cosily cosseted baby with plenty of toys in the pram, even I would have to disagree with that.

Any budgetary impact on the private sector has a de facto effect on civil and public servants as they pay the same taxes as everybody else.

The people calling for cuts to social welfare are indistinguishable by sector. I would say it's a fairly safe assessment that the majority of people in all sectors think a reduction in Jobseeker's Allowance is called for. Where I would disagree is in relation to Jobseeker's Benefit, as that's an accrued benefit that people have earned their entitlement to.

feicim

Budget to be tougher

I wonder will they remember to make it tough on themselves or just everybody else. I get the feeling the "pain" they rattle on about is an abstract notion in relation to themselves.

Off with their incompetent, greedy, well-fed heads:mad:

feicim

ninty9er wrote: »

it's a fairly safe assessment that the majority of people in all sectors think a reduction in Jobseeker's Allowance is called for. Where I would disagree is in relation to Jobseeker's Benefit, as that's an accrued benefit that people have earned their entitlement to.

Since when have the majority of people in this country been right about anything? Isn't that how we got so deep into this mess in the first place?

First time for everything I suppose.

_Kaiser_

The cuts so far haven't hit a large portion of the private sector workforce in any meaningful way. I know plenty of former colleagues of mine who are still going off on foreign holidays 2 times a year, buying expensive PC/electronic gear, heading out on the town every other week etc..

As I recall actually, one of these people posted here before confirming all this and he was even offering/willing to pay more as he and his girlfriend hadn't been hit badly yet.

Now, let's look at the other players here:


- Public sector: I am so sick and tired of hearing the "bloated overpaid lazy PS workers" line being trotted out.

I worked in the public sector for 4 years, and 12 in the private sector/multinationals before that. I was made redundant late last year because my contract (that's right.. not everyone is permanent!) couldn't be renewed because of the recruitment embargo. I worked damned hard too - just 3 of us to look after the IT needs of a 20 site, 5000 user organisation.

I wasn't on the "average" €50k salary either.. indeed it COST me money by means of having to run a car (I was the IT Manager for the organisation and only got a mileage rate of 25c per km, which was then slashed to 19c - and did anywhere from 600-1000km per month as part of the job).

I paid pension contributions, pension levies, income levies, even a "Widows and Orphans" charge.. I also only got the minimum statutory redundancy when I (and a lot of others) was let go so some people here really need to check the facts before spouting this nonsense!


- The Unemployed: My "salary" dropped in excess of 66% overnight when I was laid off. But my responsibilities didn't dissapear with it.. no one is offering to bail me out, or forgive my debts!

That's right.. not everyone on the dole is a "lazy waster" either! I still have to pay my gas bill, my rent (no mortgage thank god!), my ESB, my phone bills, internet, my personal loan (used for a car), car running costs (and before someone says "sell the car" - I live in Cavan.. there's no LUAS or DARTs here!
The fact is that if you live in the country, which I do as my last job was in Meath (and especially as the few jobs that there are in my sector are back in Dublin), I need a car!)

I've had to go practically begging to get help with the rent. Renegotiating terms with the banks and the ESB/Gas crowd isn't much fun either.
Yes I'm currently unemployed, but I'm doing my damnest to get something, but the way you're treated by these people, you might as well be one of the "lazy wasters" stereotype.

Oh and after all my (renegotiated) bills are paid and I've bought food, that doesn't leave me very much to play with. I can't remember the last time I bought some new clothes and I haven't seen the inside of a pub in months.
I'm constantly worrying about how I'm gonna pay the next bill, and juggling the limited "income" I do get to try and keep them off my back for another month!
As someone who's always (been lucky to) worked since I finished college, but who lived in a poorer working class family growing up, I can tell you I'm certainly not "better off" on the dole - financially OR emotionally!


Unfortunately this particular forum has a surplus of middle-class keyboard warriors/wannabe economists who are very quick to pass judgement on everyone else, but who aren't as quick to recognise that it was private enterprise that led us into this mess, and that private sector workers had no problem demanding/getting wage increases and bonuses and commissions in the "good times" as well.


The real tragedy though is that while all the finger-pointing and buck-passing goes on (something we as a people, and our government in particular excel at!), the artists of our country's (potential and ever more likely) demise get off scot-free while the rest of us pay for their mistakes, incompetence and corruption.

But by all means, keep looking for that scapegoat... but I think you'll find we're all (those of us who are left in this backwater cesspool) going down with the ship together.

ressem

Can anyone say why the government are insistent on the budget theatrics where no decisions are revealed until the minister has been photo'ed with the steel budget case?

If businesses are going to be forced into switching suppliers or increasing prices due to increased taxation costs making them uncompetitive, then they need this information as soon as possible.
It's just adding uncertainty, and will force adjustments to be sharper, possibly resulting in job losses. No room for discussion, no room for improving adjustments and estimates.

Joan Burton was pointing out these games regarding Cowan's proclamations of ignorance about the final figures yesterday, while the info was provided to the FT.
Ministers were denying that discussions on the budget had even started a month ago, which is either a lie or a hanging offense.

They're not playing poker anymore; politicians keeping cards close to the chest is hurting the country.

AnnyHallsal

thebman wrote: »

Even if there are 50% eviction rates, they will be evicted onto a wide open property market as the houses with people evicted from go back on the market looking for more people to rent.

Its a renters market but not when the government is funding it and propping it up.

There are surplus rental properties around already so people could move already if evicted and many of the people with already empty rental properties would jump at the chance to get an empty room filled to help pay the mortgage.

Again there is no shortage of places to rent, there is only a government artificially propping up a market. Reduce it by 50 euro and watch rents and thus cost of living fall for everyone in the economy. Only people that are landlords for their jobs will be negatively effected and the government shouldn't be borrowing to keep them in the lives their accustomed to.

Not to go off topic here, but it doesn't describe my experience. I receive rent allowance and found it quite difficult to find somewhere to live.

1) There wasn't much on the market .. about 90 properties for the whole of south dublin, about half of which were above the allowance threshold/had yet to be taken down.

2) When I did find a place, the landlord was EXTREMELY reluctant to reduce the rent by 20 euro a month to place it within the amount allowed. I found this very surprising as I had a deposit, a month's rent upfront, the place wouldn't be empty for a day, the rent was at the ceiling of the allowance so still really quite expensive yet they were quibbling about twenty euro a month?? So much for a renter's market! Also, they suggested I pay them the extra money on the sly, which I refused, as it's illegal. The landlord also said they'll review the situation in the new year and might evict me all for the sake of that twenty quid a month. I also know that the house has been in the family for generations so there is no mortgage problem.

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I paid pension contributions, pension levies, income levies, even a "Widows and Orphans" charge.. I also only got the minimum statutory redundancy when I (and a lot of others) was let go so some people here really need to check the facts before spouting this nonsense!

Contractors in the private sector don't get any redundancy payments at the end of their contract

Denerick

Something like 70% of public spending goes on the public sector payroll? I can't remember where I heard that figure but it seems a little excessive. Can anyone clarify where each euro goes? Anyway, just for the lols, here is my 'national plan for fiscal consolidation'

TAX

Super tax of 53% on all income + 150k per annum.
Vat +1%
Broaden the tax base to start from around 18k per annum at a 10% rate.
Clamp down on tax avoidance.

SPENDING

Benchmarking public sector wages with private sector equivilent = 10-20% pay cuts across the board. Over 5 years.
Means test all state benefits, far too many middle class people getting medical cards and child benefit.
Cut defence spending by 75%.
Reform HSE. Hopefully a billion will magically materialise out of somewhere.
Sack crap teachers, offer grants for teachers to get a masters degree in their specialised field. Generally raise educational standards in this country.
Cut capital spending by 1 billion per annum. Most of that money is spent on un-necessary bypasses and overspend. Bang for buck, and all that.

OH YEAH

BEG THE EU FOR MONEY AND TIME.

_Kaiser_

RoverJames wrote: »

Contractors in the private sector don't get any redundancy payments at the end of their contract

Well for what it was (not much for 4 and a bit years of genuinely hard work and effort on my part) it didn't make much of a difference! But I take the point

Jane5

1)Pull the f**k out of the EU. Tell the German (and Irish) bondholders to p*ss off, sometimes gamblers lose too.

2)Introduce An Punt Nua.

3)Devalue like f**k. Watch the tourist dollars roll in as our exchange rate suddenly becomes very favourable.

4)Drop corporation tax to 8.5%. Watch as companies from all over flood in, thrilled at the combination of low tax and the option of paying people in An Punt Nua, which for the first little while until recovery starts to happen would cost them eff all. Many of the stuff we now import at huge cost could well end up being manufactured here.

5)Convert all existing mortgages from euros to An Punt Nua at the very start of the whole thing. Then when hyperinflation happens, and wages skyrocket, mortgages get paid off quickly and disposable income shoots upwards.

Yes, it's change, and it's oh so scary. It would take balls, and some brains, to manage the hyperinflation and juggle the economics of it all. It goes against what they want you to believe is the right decision, and against all the propaganda out there.

Jane5

Why the hell are we even IN the Eurozone? We have much much more in common with USA and Britain, socially, culturally, economically, linguistically, really geographically.

I mean, I never feel oh so European here. Until I fly outta here and hit the continent I never feel I'm in Europe.

If the USA, Britain and Ireland formed an economic alliance it would make vastly more sense to me. This trying to harmonise the economies of different countries in all parts of Europe that are in completely different states of development makes no sense.

In contrast, Ireland, Britain and the USA all have similar standards in a lot of areas, share a common language and Britain and the USA, at least, have their own currency which they are able to manipulate to their advantage when times get tough. We should look to emulate them, not Europe and the control freaky Germans who want our corporation tax and our sovereignty.

ressem

No 70% isn't correct.
http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/Documents/Estimates%20Book%202010.pdf

Page 22.
Predicted estimate 2010 17.2 billion Net pay and pensions.
Actual 2009 was 18.7 billion (340 million over the estimate)

Net current spending. page 20.
40.2 billion; net voted current spending estimate 2010.


Some of the reason for people giving out about the public sector wages is due to pages such as pg 17 on this document, which lists.

Exchequer pay and pensions included above (Gross)

2006 16,752
2007 18,157
2008 19,353
2009 20,113
2010 18,675 -7.2%

which suggests to the reader that pay and pensions haven't been reduced beyond the giveaway 2007 budget. Only the departments and individuals looking at pay slips know the actual breakdown.

_Kaiser_

Jane5 wrote: »

Why the hell are we even IN the Eurozone? We have much much more in common with USA and Britain, socially, culturally, economically, linguistically, really geographically.

I mean, I never feel oh so European here. Until I fly outta here and hit the continent I never feel I'm in Europe.

If the USA, Britain and Ireland formed an economic alliance it would make vastly more sense to me. This trying to harmonise the economies of different countries in all parts of Europe that are in completely different states of development makes no sense.

In contrast, Ireland, Britain and the USA all have similar standards in a lot of areas, share a common language and Britain and the USA, at least, have their own currency which they are able to manipulate to their advantage when times get tough. We should look to emulate them, not Europe and the control freaky Germans who want our corporation tax and our sovereignty.

We're in the EU because.. 20 years ago.. it made financial sense. All the money we got from them, and all the investment from US multinationals lured by low corporation tax, an English-speaking workforce and access to the emerging single-currency market was a no-brainer.

Of course it hasn't really worked out all that well has it? We thought we were the "chosen people", that the rules of economics didn't apply here and we would live like kings on credit forever more... now the money is gone, the multinationals are off to the East and what have we got to replace them... nothing!

You have a point though.. culturally we have a lot more in common with the UK and the US, and 20-odd years of EU membership hasn't changed that.

murphaph

Jane5 wrote: »

1)Pull the f**k out of the EU. Tell the German (and Irish) bondholders to p*ss off, sometimes gamblers lose too.

2)Introduce An Punt Nua.

3)Devalue like f**k. Watch the tourist dollars roll in as our exchange rate suddenly becomes very favourable.

4)Drop corporation tax to 8.5%. Watch as companies from all over flood in, thrilled at the combination of low tax and the option of paying people in An Punt Nua, which for the first little while until recovery starts to happen would cost them eff all. Many of the stuff we now import at huge cost could well end up being manufactured here.

5)Convert all existing mortgages from euros to An Punt Nua at the very start of the whole thing. Then when hyperinflation happens, and wages skyrocket, mortgages get paid off quickly and disposable income shoots upwards.

Yes, it's change, and it's oh so scary. It would take balls, and some brains, to manage the hyperinflation and juggle the economics of it all. It goes against what they want you to believe is the right decision, and against all the propaganda out there.

Basically you want to act like the past decade of over exuberance never happened. But it DID happen. Irish people couldn't get enough of the "property buzz" and it is the Irish attitude towards property ownership which is at the heart of the matter.

You now want to tell the people who lent money to the Irish in good faith, to "p!ss off". It is not a gamble to lend money to someone. It is a contract into which BOTH parties enter freely. The German people don't enter into such onerous contracts so easily, so perhaps we should learn something from them rather than just b!tching about them, eh?

Oh, switching to a Punt Nua (even if you refuse to pay your sovereign debt) and devaluing like hell means our "Punt Nua" will be worthless and we will be unable to import vast quantities of things we cannot produce in Ireland but which we need desperately to survive...oil and coal being the most obvious. The lights would literally go out on Ireland as they have gone out in Zimbabwe and North Korea.

ardmacha

2006 16,752
2007 18,157
2008 19,353
2009 20,113
2010 18,675 -7.2%

which suggests to the reader that pay and pensions haven't been reduced beyond the giveaway 2007 budget

Of course, pensions have not been reduced at all. Pay has been reduced more than shown as this does not include the pension levy.

Spudmonkey

Jane5 wrote: »

5)Convert all existing mortgages from euros to An Punt Nua at the very start of the whole thing. Then when hyperinflation happens, and wages skyrocket, mortgages get paid off quickly and disposable income shoots upwards.

Just a minor problem before you print your trillion punt note to pay off your mortgage. This remains in euro, even if we don't

amen

My take on some ways to balance the books.

Property tax is a non runner

why ?

(Nearly) Every house in the country has electricity.

Get the house addresses and charge a property tax.
Could start at 500e for every house in the country for a standard size house say 1,500sq ft .

increase by a percentage for every foot about this so if you have a 3000sql ft house you pay 1000e.

Then look at each county/constituency and determine average income for that area and compare to the national average.

Use that to further increase/decrease the property tax.

Transparent and could be done very quickly.

Cap all PS wages to 3 times the average national wage. This is for everyone tds, senators, doctors, nurses etc. If anyone wants to leave the country then let them. If you receive extensive and expensive training from the state i.e Doctors you have to sign a contact when you start that you work as public doctor for 5 years post qualification or you pay the state the cost of your training.

By caping the wages we are encourage the PS/State to help the private sector to grow and increase wages. PS wages will then go up as they follow the private sector average.

Stop all automatic increments immediately in the PS.
Stop linking of PS pensions to current salary scales.
PS to fund/pay their own pensions like the private sector.

Special wealth tax on all those who earn over 150,000 a year.

New efficency teams to root out inefficencies and reduce waste.

I know of one HSE area that is renting offices while they have 3 empty buildings that they own that they are not using.

Stop the use of Temp staff in the PS. Hire full time if required (can be cheaper in the long run)

Stop the use of recruiters in the PS.

Move motor tax to be included in fuel purchase.

Have a proper national drug purchase scheme. Compare prices to the rest of europe and negotiate aggressively. Get professional managers/negotiators if required.

changes

dan_d wrote: »

To be honest, I just don't see how they are going to do this without raising taxes and hitting the public sector. I'm not sure how they'll do it exactly, but I'm guessing the Croke Park agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on right now.

That would be a very tough one, the PS are unlikely to respond well to another attack on their income.

Low paid workers should be brought into the tax net, medical card holders should not be exempt from health levy and income levy and the dole should be cut also unsuring that it is not more benificial to remain unemployed.

A 3rd rate of tax should be introduced on all income over 50K, this would take money of the better paid public servants and more importantly the untouched professional classes like doctors, dentists and other top earners.

Jane5

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Just a minor problem before you print your trillion punt note to pay off your mortgage. This remains in euro, even if we don't

This is why you convert the mortgage to An Punt Nua at the start of it all. The very start. The devaluing and subsequent hyperinflation happens afterward. This is how you pay off your mortgage.

Property tax is not the answer. Aside from the immorality of taxing the roof over peoples' heads that they purchased out of their NET income, there is no more scope to tax anybody anymore. The majority of people in this country are squeezed to the max and can't make ends meet. An extra tax would finish them, and lead to increased demands for social housing, welfare etc.

Jane5

murphaph wrote: »

Basically you want to act like the past decade of over exuberance never happened. But it DID happen. Irish people couldn't get enough of the "property buzz" and it is the Irish attitude towards property ownership which is at the heart of the matter.

You now want to tell the people who lent money to the Irish in good faith, to "p!ss off". It is not a gamble to lend money to someone. It is a contract into which BOTH parties enter freely. The German people don't enter into such onerous contracts so easily, so perhaps we should learn something from them rather than just b!tching about them, eh?

Oh, switching to a Punt Nua (even if you refuse to pay your sovereign debt) and devaluing like hell means our "Punt Nua" will be worthless and we will be unable to import vast quantities of things we cannot produce in Ireland but which we need desperately to survive...oil and coal being the most obvious. The lights would literally go out on Ireland as they have gone out in Zimbabwe and North Korea.

France had devaluation and hyperinflation of the franc when they needed it. It worked. Their economy is in fairly good shape.

Ummm, where to being. The bondholders in Anglo didn't "lend to the Irish in good faith"! They were speculators, pure and simple. I know you know this. And the truth in the real world is: sometimes gamblers get burned.

The austerity, cuts, taxes will not work. You know this. Anyone who understands even rudimentary economics knows this. One way, or another, we will have to leave the euro, whether by choice or by force, or become so cripplingly dirt-poor for generations to come that we join the real thrid world. Which is it to be? I would rather leave the euro.

johnnyskeleton

seamus wrote: »

If my tax goes up by 1%, then that's 1% that I can no longer spend on groceries and fuel. That's 1% that businesses are no longer taking in, which means a 1% drop in tax take somewhere else for the government.

It also increases the cost of employing someone, thus discouraging investment in jobs, which all the parties are saying is priority number 1.

SkepticOne

murphaph wrote: »

Oh, switching to a Punt Nua (even if you refuse to pay your sovereign debt) and devaluing like hell means our "Punt Nua" will be worthless and we will be unable to import vast quantities of things we cannot produce in Ireland but which we need desperately to survive...oil and coal being the most obvious. The lights would literally go out on Ireland as they have gone out in Zimbabwe and North Korea.

The problem is we have "the euro" but we don't have euros. Coal and gas are bought with euros (or indeed any currency) but not with "the euro".

ardmacha

Property tax is not the answer. Aside from the immorality of taxing the roof over peoples' heads that they purchased out of their NET income, there is no more scope to tax anybody anymore.

Property taxes are absolutely the answer. We simply cannot continue to rule out sources of revenue that are used in almost every other jurisdiction in the world. People will have to be taxed more, the disincentive effects of a property tax is much less than more income tax. With some mitigation for people who bought houses in the last 8 years or so.

Denerick

Jane5 wrote: »

France had devaluation and hyperinflation of the franc when they needed it. It worked. Their economy is in fairly good shape.

What? France which is in the Euro? France hasn't had a 'fairly good' economy since the early 60s.

Ummm, where to being. The bondholders in Anglo didn't "lend to the Irish in good faith"! They were speculators, pure and simple. I know you know this. And the truth in the real world is: sometimes gamblers get burned.

The austerity, cuts, taxes will not work. You know this. Anyone who understands even rudimentary economics knows this. One way, or another, we will have to leave the euro, whether by choice or by force, or become so cripplingly dirt-poor for generations to come that we join the real thrid world. Which is it to be? I would rather leave the euro.

None of that is going to happen.

Alarmism...

flutered

every one to be taxed on their income, from social welfare up, a property and water tax intwined, we are about the only country that does not do this, we need to try the u.s. system for a period of 10 years ie state and federal taxes, the best and the brightest to be hired by the state, if you are not up to it you leave, get rid of the president, let the t shock do both, cut the tds and their ilks wages by 60%, all tds etc get the same wage, no car, no driver, no exes, they dont need them they have a subsusided bar and canteen, then we can have as many ministers as they wish to appoint, slash the number of public repesentives, have only one council in each county, no city co or borough councils, bring in overseas management for the first five years, not only are they better, they work for less as well, when they have things straightened ease in our own, get tough with the bankers, its all their fault anyway, cut their wages and no bouneses, cie, esb b na m etc, again a 60% cut for the top brass, with a pro rata cut for every one else, all pensions etc for them guys to be taxed at 65%, let them leave if they want, just make sure that the pensions are taxed at scource, bring in high powered hr people into the ps, let them slash, implement the mc carthy report as well, have all rubbish charges the same all over the country, ditch the last esb increase, cut the minimun wage, cut vat, cut the 10 euro exit charge, offer ml o leary 5 million a year cash to run all things transport.

snaps

Whats the difference between a property tax and stamp duty? Surely its the same thing?

You cant bring in all these taxes in one go, imagine a family where the breadwinner has lost his/her job, now on social welfare, finding it hard to pay the bills etc, then all of a sudden, even more cash is needed to pay water/property tax?

Its all a receipe for country suicide. A property tax will kill the housing industry even more, who in their right mind is going to buy a property now, to be hit with all these new stealth taxes?

Government needs to plug the leaks, all the stupid spending.

Plus another point, ive made this point in the tv satellite section, SKY Ireland is taking aprox 70m€ a year from the irish tax pot and putting it in the UK tax pot, this has to be stopped? How can a company do this, pure madness.

More cuts in the PS is needed, you cant keep hitting the general public as the pot is about to boil over here, we cant take much more.

All these Green taxes are a joke, carbon tax on heating oil is a joke. The single mother next door to me this year said that she cannot afford to buy oil this year, she's a 4 year old girl living with her, luckily a farmer has given her a load of timber for the fire. Thats another example of what Green taxes have done this year, made wood and timber popular this year for heat (So the Greens are to blame for the cutting down of more trees)

amen

brightest to be hired by the state

well thats part of the problem who are the brighest ?

I left graduated from college in 1994. There was a civil service recruitment driver for AOs/EOs. Approx 10,000+ people applied and were called to appitude (including me).

Approx 2.5 years later I got a letter that I was approx number 400 out of 10,000 in order of ranking and would I like to come to interview. Of course at that stage I had a job in the private sector that I liked and enjoyed so I didn't go to interview.

I would take a bet that of the odd 400 hundred before me very few took up the offer as most had jobs. So the interviews keep going down the food chain until they manage to offer the job to someone.

The other problem is lack of outside recruitment to high level jobs in the Civil Service. There was an article in the Irish times a few months ago that all of the publicly advertised senior public services went to public servants bar one which went to someone who used to work in the public service.

Perhaps if we had more people in senior positions who have worked in the private sector we might have a more focuses and responsive ps.

daltonm

ninty9er wrote: »

As someone who sees the public sector as a cosily cosseted baby with plenty of toys in the pram, even I would have to disagree with that.

Any budgetary impact on the private sector has a de facto effect on civil and public servants as they pay the same taxes as everybody else.

The people calling for cuts to social welfare are indistinguishable by sector. I would say it's a fairly safe assessment that the majority of people in all sectors think a reduction in Jobseeker's Allowance is called for. Where I would disagree is in relation to Jobseeker's Benefit, as that's an accrued benefit that people have earned their entitlement to.

Let me expand on that point. I believe that the PS pay is on average around 900 pw ( €46K) and private sector is running at around 32k then this is not only unsustainable but unfair. We cannot pay one section of society at one rate and another at a far higher one.

Both private and public sector have the same commitments, the same issues and the same worries. The irony is that the PS will fight tooth and nail to preserve their income - to pay off their mortgages to the banks we are bailing out.

When I say we need to scale down as a nation then the PS cannot be excluded.

Godge

AnnyHallsal wrote: »

Not to go off topic here, but it doesn't describe my experience. I receive rent allowance and found it quite difficult to find somewhere to live.

1) There wasn't much on the market .. about 90 properties for the whole of south dublin, about half of which were above the allowance threshold/had yet to be taken down.

2) When I did find a place, the landlord was EXTREMELY reluctant to reduce the rent by 20 euro a month to place it within the amount allowed. I found this very surprising as I had a deposit, a month's rent upfront, the place wouldn't be empty for a day, the rent was at the ceiling of the allowance so still really quite expensive yet they were quibbling about twenty euro a month?? So much for a renter's market! Also, they suggested I pay them the extra money on the sly, which I refused, as it's illegal. The landlord also said they'll review the situation in the new year and might evict me all for the sake of that twenty quid a month. I also know that the house has been in the family for generations so there is no mortgage problem.

South Dublin is your problem. Most of the working population can't afford to live in South Dublin. Many people originally from there have had to leave and move outside of Dublin. Not surprising therefore to find that you have problems finding a place on rent allowance there.

You would have no problem in Clonee, Adamstown or Balbriggan. Not saying that they are worse places to live but there is a surplus of accommodation.

Godge

daltonm wrote: »

Let me expand on that point. I believe that the PS pay is on average around 900 pw ( €46K) and private sector is running at around 32k then this is not only unsustainable but unfair. We cannot pay one section of society at one rate and another at a far higher one.

Both private and public sector have the same commitments, the same issues and the same worries. The irony is that the PS will fight tooth and nail to preserve their income - to pay off their mortgages to the banks we are bailing out.

When I say we need to scale down as a nation then the PS cannot be excluded.

But we do. We pay accountants, solicitors, dentists, doctors, pharmacists etc. more than the rest of us. There was a dentist on here on another thread complaining that his high fees meant he could only earn €86k. That is twice the public sector average, nearly three times the private sector average. But who is cutting his wage???

Welease

snaps wrote: »

Whats the difference between a property tax and stamp duty? Surely its the same thing?

Not generally.. Stamp duty would be when you purchase the house, Property tax would be a yearly tax on owning that house

snaps wrote: »

You cant bring in all these taxes in one go, imagine a family where the breadwinner has lost his/her job, now on social welfare, finding it hard to pay the bills etc, then all of a sudden, even more cash is needed to pay water/property tax?

Well thats what happens when you bankrupt a country.. taxes rise..
On the other hand.. we do (or will) own the banks there is no reason why they could not be forced to allow mortgage extensions i.e. change a 25 year mortgage into a 50 year mortgage (the Germans have 100 year mortgages available).

snaps wrote: »

Its all a receipe for country suicide. A property tax will kill the housing industry even more, who in their right mind is going to buy a property now, to be hit with all these new stealth taxes?

That wouldn't be a property tax, that would be stamp duty. The property tax will apply to owners, its not a purchase tax.

Godge

How to cut public sector pay while honouring the Croke Park Agreement? Two possibilities.

1. Tax relief on pensions is at the higher rate - 41%. Public servants pay pension contributions (6.5%) and also the pension levy (up to 9%). All of this is tax deductible at 41%. If you cut the tax relief to 20%, that is an effective pay cut for public servants. While it will also affect those private sector workers in pension schemes, only 30% of the private sector workforce is in a pension scheme. Also it will only affect those on the higher rate - the better paid.

2. Public servants recruited prior to 1995 pay a lower rate of PRSI - only about 1.5%. Abolish PRSI as suggested and introduce a flat rate social insurance contribution in or around the current level of Class A PRSI. Public servants recruited after 1995 are not affected while those in the private sector who pay PRSI are not affected.

Both of these ideas affect the public sector more than the private sector but are also compatible with the Croke Park agreement as they do not reduce the absolute level of pay. Watch this space.

ardmacha

1. Tax relief on pensions is at the higher rate - 41%. Public servants pay pension contributions (6.5%) and also the pension levy (up to 9%). All of this is tax deductible at 41%. If you cut the tax relief to 20%, that is an effective pay cut for public servants. While it will also affect those private sector workers in pension schemes, only 30% of the private sector workforce is in a pension scheme. Also it will only affect those on the higher rate - the better paid.

Discouraging pension contributions is not a particularly wise strategy, better perhaps to allow a substantial level of contribution but limit tax relief on these multimillion pension funds. It wouldn't raise much, but would help the optics. In terms of pensions the obvious measure is to reduce PS pensions by the amount that a person working on the same income has been cut.

2. Public servants recruited prior to 1995 pay a lower rate of PRSI - only about 1.5%. Abolish PRSI as suggested and introduce a flat rate social insurance contribution in or around the current level of Class A PRSI. Public servants recruited after 1995 are not affected while those in the private sector who pay PRSI are not affected.

Since all such people receive lower salaries than post 95 people (and the higher post 95 salaries are the ones always quoted) if they were required to pay the same contribution they would have to get the same salary so you wouldn't save anything much. It might be worth changing thing to harmonise everyone, presently pre 95 people could not be laid off as they are not eligble for welfare not having paid contributions.

Godge

ardmacha wrote: »

Since all such people receive lower salaries than post 95 people (and the higher post 95 salaries are the ones always quoted) if they were required to pay the same contribution they would have to get the same salary so you wouldn't save anything much. It might be worth changing thing to harmonise everyone, presently pre 95 people could not be laid off as they are not eligble for welfare not having paid contributions.

You have fallen for a common misconception.

The higher salaries were to compensate for higher pension contributions not for higher PRSI rates (both changes happended at the same time). The Department of Finance circulars gave the wrong impression for years.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/circulars/circular2009/circ282009.pdf

Look at Appendix 2A of the above circular. You have to have both the superannuation contribution and the Class A PRSI for the higher salary.

Teachers have only one salary rate because they have always contributed to their pensions but they have different PRSI rates for pre and post-1995.

Godge

ardmacha wrote: »

Discouraging pension contributions is not a particularly wise strategy, better perhaps to allow a substantial level of contribution but limit tax relief on these multimillion pension funds. It wouldn't raise much, but would help the optics. In terms of pensions the obvious measure is to reduce PS pensions by the amount that a person working on the same income has been cut.


.

They have already standard-rated a number of different tax reliefs. Pension contribution may only be one of a number that are changed in this budget. It is amazing how much revenue you can raise without touching basic rates.