Budget to be tougher!

johnboy_123

Well Mickey its going to be an interresting budget...I mean the tax take is coming close to the point of diminishing returns, the p.s have been promised no more cuts till 2014 so that 70% of the current expenditure off the table for cuts... So where are they going to get the money from....I never thought I would be doomsdayer but if the current gov dont get the next budget right we are all fu(ked

whatawaster

Surely no matter what we do in terms of cutting or taxing, we are going to produce the same deflationary effects. People are going to suffer losses of incomes.

So i think, as far as possible, we should do the following:

- Yearly decreases for Public Sector Pay, Social Welfare and the minimum wage until they are at acceptable levels.

- Re-working of the tax system. Make it much simpler by abolishing PRSI/Income levy and introducing one single tax, with different rates and bands. Absolutely no tax credits, and all income is taxable. So no more PRSI paid by businesses, which will encourage employment.

- Move towards lower levels of VAT. Ideally, i'd like a lower % of tax take to be from VAT, and more from Income tax.

- Cut Corporation Tax from 12.5% to 10%.



At least by going down this route, once we eventually come out the other side of this crisis, we'll have a low-cost workforce and a low cost of living.

It's going to be fairly brutal on a lot of people, but there's no way out of this without everyone taking large hits to their real income.

I think this can be done. There is huge scope for cuts in Public Wages and Social Welfare which will save billions every year.

The_Honeybadger

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Well Mickey its going to be an interresting budget...I mean the tax take is coming close to the point of diminishing returns, the p.s have been promised no more cuts till 2014 so that 70% of the current expenditure off the table for cuts... So where are they going to get the money from....I never thought I would be doomsdayer but if the current gov dont get the next budget right we are all fu(ked

That is exactly the point I was trying to make

Every sensible move seems to be off the table, if they cut the health, welfare & education budgets too much the government will fall as their spineless backbenchers and independents desert the sinking ship in order that they might retain some hope of re-election, so it really is a conundrum where to drop the axe.

daltonm

mickeyk wrote: »

I don't need to get real Johnboy, I know they won't introduce a PT, they have even said so, my point is everywhere that there is scope to save money, or generate income seems to be off the table to please some vested interest or the other. I do agree a PT would be unfair on those who have paid stamp duty, but do remember that most houses in this country have no mortgage on them and are fully paid for, and most FTB's paid little or no stamp duty on their houses. There is the poitential to generate alot of money there even if you exclude people who have paid stamp duty in the past 10 years. If we exclude all these ways of saving or generating money all that is left is cutting services, which is the last thing that should be done, there is no easy or even correct answer, but unless B. Lenihan pulls one hell of a rabbit from his hat in December, health and other key services are going to be dramatically affected, but at least our consultants can hang onto the beemers and merc's, so it's not all bad news .

He also said that the bank bailout was the cheapest in the world - it would cost 4 billion.

Everything is back on the table and it will not be pretty.

It is not about fair or who should be paid what - it is simply a matter of what this country can afford.

whatawaster

daltonm wrote: »

Everything is back on the table and it will not be pretty.

I would be amazed if they touch Social Welfare/Public Pay too much.

They'll simply lower the budgets for health/education etc and call them necessary reductions in service, which is a complete and utter lie.

seamus

mickeyk wrote: »

There is the poitential to generate alot of money there even if you exclude people who have paid stamp duty in the past 10 years.

There are roughly 1.8 million dwellings in the state. A property tax of €1,000/year would yield close to 2 billion. That will be further reduced when you take into account those in state/social housing and unsold properties belongong to developers.

You could make a significant dent in the public deficit by imposing a €5,000 property tax, but since this would represent (effectively) a 16% income tax increase across the board, it would likely result in economic collapse since most people would be unable to afford it and the state would be incapable of enforcing it.

Propery tax is not a silver bullet. It would/will be a helpful contribution, but that's about it. Compared to the monolith of public sector spending and social welfare spending, it's a drop in the ocean.

johnboy_123

seamus wrote: »

There are roughly 1.8 million dwellings in the state. A property tax of €1,000/year would yield close to 2 billion. That will be further reduced when you take into account those in state/social housing and unsold properties belongong to developers.

You could make a significant dent in the public deficit by imposing a €5,000 property tax, but since this would represent (effectively) a 16% income tax increase across the board, it would likely result in economic collapse since most people would be unable to afford it and the state would be incapable of enforcing it.

Propery tax is not a silver bullet. It would/will be a helpful contribution, but that's about it. Compared to the monolith of public sector spending and social welfare spending, it's a drop in the ocean.

Property tax is a non runner

Firstly it would be too hard to implement . ie how do you charge, location sq foot,

Secondly as someone who has a property I have already paid out about 40k in stamp duty theres your f()cking property tax...

If I hear of a property tax being imposed I will be the first to rent a truck to go for leinster house

Riskymove

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Property tax is a non runner

Firstly it would be too hard to implement . ie how do you charge, location sq foot,

Secondly as someone who has a property I have already paid out about 40k in stamp duty theres your f()cking property tax...

If I hear of a property tax being imposed I will be the first to rent a truck to go for leinster house

they are good points but on the other hand many other countries have them so it cant be impossible!!

The_Honeybadger

seamus wrote: »

There are roughly 1.8 million dwellings in the state. A property tax of €1,000/year would yield close to 2 billion. That will be further reduced when you take into account those in state/social housing and unsold properties belongong to developers.

You could make a significant dent in the public deficit by imposing a €5,000 property tax, but since this would represent (effectively) a 16% income tax increase across the board, it would likely result in economic collapse since most people would be unable to afford it and the state would be incapable of enforcing it.

Propery tax is not a silver bullet. It would/will be a helpful contribution, but that's about it. Compared to the monolith of public sector spending and social welfare spending, it's a drop in the ocean.

Never said it was the answer to all our problems, I'm merely using it as an example of the incredible way in which we have ruled out every sensible option to make or save income. On public sector spending, waste and the extorsion racket otherwise known as PS pay and pensions need to be looked at again and the CPD torn up, as well as welfare and quangos. As you say if everything is back on the table then good, because it should be. And I hope you are not trying to suggest I was advocating a 5000 euro property tax, I wasn't.

daithicarr

a property tax could not only fill some (not all or close to it) of the budget deficit encourage more energy efficent buildings and would dicourage sprawl if implemented properly.
from what i could see something around the value of 2% tax on the value of the property seems to be a international norm, i could be wrong. but that could produce a lot of extra revenue. and a lot of countrys including the USA (which have up to 5% in some state) have some form of property tax, which is far more sustainable than a tax on property transaction. maybe people who paid stamp duty over the last 10 years could pay a reduced amount until 10 -15 years has passed on the purchase of the property?

thebman

Increasing taxes and savage cuts are both on the way TBH.

We are at the point were we are eating ourselves to try to stay alive financially.

We cut pay for public sector and increase taxes hitting them both sides and hitting the private sector which is going to tank the economy further and we will end up in the same place next year with more debt interest to pay.

The goverment has to cut its subsidies to the property markets in terms of rent allowances and social housing massively in the next budget or we are doomed!

Similarly they need to dismantle and reduce the size of as many of the quangos as possible.

Realsitically at this point, it would be a miracle if we didn't need a bailout as the government have not taken the appropriate action to cut the deficeit in a sensible amount of time.

Will folk in their 60s and 70s and 80s be expected to pay this property tax, will folks already struggling to pay their mortgage have to pay it. Property tax unless it's a figure of €300 / €400 per annum for those not retired would be a looney introduction. And at that level it won't bring in huge money.

The_Honeybadger

Look no matter what cut or tax is proposed there will be somebody screaming blue murder about how unfair it is, and that they should get the money off the bankers instead. We have a structural deficit of at least 12bn that needs to be taken out of government spending, through either cuts or taxes or most likely both, we can't please everybody, Bertie tried to do that and look where we are. No matter how it is done somebody, somewhere will suffer for it, jobs will be lost and standards of living will suffer, but it has to be done. Propert tax is unavoidable, water rates are unavoidable, further cuts to ps pay and numbers are unavoidable, cuts to welfare are unavoidable, it is now about finding the least painful and damaging way of doing it.

thebman

thebman wrote: »

The goverment has to cut its subsidies to the property markets in terms of rent allowances and social housing massively in the next budget or we are doomed!

How are people on the dole then expected to have a roof over their head ?

johnboy_123

RoverJames wrote: »

Will folk in their 60s and 70s and 80s be expected to pay this property tax, will folks already struggling to pay their mortgage have to pay it. Property tax unless it's a figure of €300 / €400 per annum for those not retired would be a looney introduction. And at that level it won't bring in huge money.

As well as people who have paid umteen tousands in stamp duty

mickeyk

mickeyk wrote: »

it is now about finding the least painful and damaging way of doing it.

Any confidence that the numpties in government at the moment are capable or even inclined to do that ? Serious question by the way, I reckon they are neither capable or inclined to be honest.

The_Honeybadger

RoverJames wrote: »

Any confidence that the numpties in government at the moment are capable or even inclined to do that ? Serious question by the way, I reckon they are neither capable or inclined to be honest.

Yes I agree, they know what needs to be done but they are too afraid to upset the vested interests. A labour / FG coalition would certainly be no better, and our debt repayments are going to make life very difficult in any case. It is hard to see this ending without some sort of outside intervention.

Triangla

The public sector bill must come down, not good news for public service employees. Private sector employees are told their pay is being reduced and it's done. Not a race to the bottom, this is reality.

Main thing should be savings, job losses are never good.

Medicine is more expensive for Ireland than UK - do a deal with NHS in the North to order our meds with theirs.

Procurement is €15 billion a year - have one procurement agency for everything. Eliminate waste and get better purchasing power. Surely 10% can be shaved off this.

Overtime costs - employ/redeploy more staff in busy areas across the public sector. Much cheaper than paying multiples of basic rate and great variety and cross training for staff.

Allowances for politicians - expenses should be legitimate and vouched for, only approved hotels (cheaper ones) should be allowed for overnight stays and mileage just scrapped. Loads of people commute to work, that's their call. You make your decision when you take a job as to the pros and cons.


Pensions - Public sector pension bill needs to be reduced. The reasons why need to be explained slowly and properly and a solution phsed in over time - not just thrown at the people affected.

Looking at the private sector, unemployment is massive at the moment, not sure what can be done to get more out of this sector by way of taxes and cuts. Main thing is to get them spending and encourage growth.

Stop this stupid carbon tax and reduce or at least freeze taxes on fuel. I use petrol because I have to. I have no other choice as no consumer electric car exists for my purpose. From a green perspective we have come on leaps and bounds in the last few years. It's a recession so give us a break.

Reduce cost of rates to businesses - are these funding actual services or paying bonuses and wages?

Split up the DAA and eliminate €10 passenger tax to encourage some real competition in getting more tourists in.

moceri

How can Chief executive Officers of Semi-State bodies justify their Huge inflated salaries. Padraig McManus head of ESB, enjoyed a package of €750,000 in 2009.
Electricity in this day and age is a basic necessity. We have the highest standing charges in Europe and the most expensive Connection fees.
The ESB operates as a virtual Monopoly. What EXTRAORDINARY work does Mc Manus do to Justify his €3220 per day. This is sick and obscene in the light of 900 Homes being disconnected each month.

nadir

I reckon following on from the course of action the government is taking, this will be a very long drawn out affair, public sector wages will need to come down to lower than those of the private sector as we can't continuously borrow to foot the bill.
Reductions are inevitable, Public sector wages will fall I'm guessing by about 30%, but the length of time required for that to happen is unknown, if it's fixed for 4 years, then we can assume that they will steadily fall for the foreseeable future.
Taxes will increase to help with the deficit, and pay the bank bailout again for the foreseeable future, and more stealth taxes will be introduced.
What I'm thinking is that these austerity measures will be continuous for over 10 years, which will probably be followed by another 5 to 10 years of economic stagnation.

murphaph

snaps wrote: »

This country really seems to be on its knees now. Its getting worrying. 1st time in my life i have been worried about the future.

That's actually a good thing in many ways. The last decade has been a fantasy..people living like there was no tomorrow. Perhaps a dose of fiscal reality is no bad thing for a lot of people.

tunney

deise blue wrote: »

Fairest in that a progressive tax system will ensure that those who earn least will pay least tax whilst those who earn more pay more tax no matter what sector they work in.

Would you agree that this is what the Government are most likely to deliver in the budget ?

But your post was "fair" - as in "fair in that the PS will be left only in terms of pay"

Owen

Please please please let them lay off the motorist for one year. I've had enough for a while between fuel increases, motor tax increases, new tolls, etc. Just once make life for the average petrolhead a bit easier, or I will speed up my inevitable emigration.

deise blue

tunney wrote: »

But your post was "fair" - as in "fair in that the PS will be left only in terms of pay"

I'm sorry but I cannot make sense of your post.

jprender

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Please please please let them lay off the motorist for one year. I've had enough for a while between fuel increases, motor tax increases, new tolls, etc. Just once make life for the average petrolhead a bit easier, or I will speed up my inevitable emigration.

Yes, everybody should be hit except for the motorist this time around :rolleyes:

Don't worry, you'll be alright, Jack.

Max Power1

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Please please please let them lay off the motorist for one year. I've had enough for a while between fuel increases, motor tax increases, new tolls, etc. Just once make life for the average petrolhead a bit easier, or I will speed up my inevitable emigration.

I can definitly see the emmissions based system rates being increased. I would imagine that the older CC based system would be left untouched as the rates are higher on that system.

Max Power1

jprender wrote: »

Yes, everybody should be hit except for the motorist this time around :rolleyes:

Don't worry, you'll be alright, Jack.

Any further increases on motor taxes and duties (apart from the emmission based rates which will surely be increased) will render many people unable to afford to drive to work. It would not be a smart decision.

ei.sdraob

I think they will slap more taxes for EVERYONE public or private

of course it would hurt the public sector more since they earn more for most part

oh well be funny seeing the tax the rich backfire when this crowd realise that they are relatively richer and more secure

Owen

Well, here's hoping they do away with Motor Tax and add a small levy onto Fuel as proposed recently. That would mean the second car I have which does <1000 miles a year will be much more easy on the pocket, and my main car which does <6000 a year would be easy too.

changes

Increase motor tax on post 08 cars
Property tax of €500 per year on everyone who bought before 2005
Cut dole by 5%
Cut pensions by 5%
3rd Rate of tax