Armed Revolt, Coup d'état Would you support it?

southsiderosie

DHYNZY wrote: »

This isn't a history lesson where retrospect is valued, which Irish people sometimes seem to love to dwell on at the expense of progress. Ireland's reputation is not shattered, and its negative comments like that that will inevitably hurt our reputation on international markets. You only have to look at whats happening with the torys in England to know that EVERYWHERE in Europe will be slashed and burned this year. But in Ireland we love to make a circus of it. And I never once suggested that our future is best served by the current FF government.

I'm not Irish, I'm not currently living in Ireland, and I get most of my news from non-Irish media. The reputation of the Irish government internationally is in tatters, and pretty much every investor in the world is betting that it will tank further. Just because the government likes to engage in magical thinking doesn't mean the rest of the world does.

southsiderosie

Deleted User wrote: »

One that has a system of stability such as full reserve banking, it forces banks to only lend "real" money. It would need to be a global change not just an Irish one. Most countries in the world are screwed because of the current system and need rapid and consistant growth to repay the debts, that simply isn't going to happen, there arn't enough resources on the planet to allow such levels of growth.

I.e. you want to cut off access to credit. You do realize that this is what's killign a lot of small and medium-sized businesses today?

Jeboa Safari

Deleted User wrote: »

One that has a system of stability such as full reserve banking, it forces banks to only lend "real" money. It would need to be a global change not just an Irish one. Most countries in the world are screwed because of the current system and need rapid and consistant growth to repay the debts, that simply isn't going to happen, there arn't enough resources on the planet to allow such levels of growth.

You clearly have no idea how the modern economy works then, credit is what drives it

tomasocarthaigh

Whod do the uprising? The so called army that took our country to the cleaners, lest we forget for over 300 million euro for "deafness claims" and have their own role to play in our ecnomic hardship.

This army also didnt have the balls to face up to the British in 1969, and with a middle class upper ranks I cant see them turning on their own.

Then were left with the IRA... they take power, what happens?

Do you know the small print of the 1921 Treaty (which the British see as an agreement, by the way, NOT a Treaty)?

If the south fails to hold power from radical (ie IRA) elements, the United Kingdom reserves the right to take power in the south.

Now, whose up for revolution?

Well apart from the SWP, CPOI, etc...

Jeboa Safari

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

You clearly have no idea how the modern economy works then, credit is what drives it

Credit is what is causing it to crash!

Jeboa Safari

Deleted User wrote: »

Credit is what is causing it to crash!

And you think because some banks lended recklessly and beyond their means, the solution is to cut off credit completely for everyone? :rolleyes:

How would anyone do anything? You couldn't buy a house, or people couldn't start up businesses. You'd actually make the country unbelievably worse than it is now, and thats some feat

Jeboa Safari

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

And you think because some banks lended recklessly and beyond their means, the solution is to cut off credit completely for everyone? :rolleyes:

How would anyone do anything? You couldn't buy a house, or people couldn't start up businesses. You'd actually make the country unbelievably worse than it is now, and thats some feat

Can you explain how the current economic model is expected to work in a world of shrinking resources.

southsiderosie

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you explain how the current economic model is expected to work in a world of shrinking resources.

How are resources shrinking on a global scale? I'd argue they are shifting, not shrinking.

And can you please explain how businesses are supposed to function without credit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUmQbf1AyA8

Why we really don't want to see the IMF!

..."Austerity" is one of those Orwellian terms that has been injected into our political discourse precisely because it is a nice-sounding word for a very painful reality. "Austerity" implies discipline, self-restraint, even nobility. "Austerity" is prudent. "Austerity" is modest. "Austerity" is a virtue. It is an end in itself.

If the IMF or the European Central Bank come to the people of a collapsing European nation and tell them to sacrifice their pensions and their savings and their very standard of living all for a debt that their government has fraudulently racked up in their name, no one would go for it, and rightly so.

But tell those same people that they need to implement "austerity measures" in order to "get back on their feet" economically, and many will be willing to live in the harshest of conditions, content to put up with the dismantling of their nation itself in the vain hope that by giving more power to the international financial institutions they can somehow avoid economic collapse...

southsiderosie

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUmQbf1AyA8

Care to summarize or even give us an inkling of what this video is about of why we should care?

southsiderosie

southsiderosie wrote: »

How are resources shrinking on a global scale? I'd argue they are shifting, not shrinking.

And can you please explain how businesses are supposed to function without credit?

Peak oil for one the very lifeblood of the modern world has reached it's limits of maxumum extraction and is only going one way from now on, south!

I mentioned full reserve banking further up! the currency is backed by a commodity of value and it's supply is strictly limited relative to that commodity (gold, silver or oil for example) such a move would make "casino economics" impossible. It brings stability to the economy, if it can't boom it wont bust.

seawolf145

Stinicker wrote: »

The time has long since passed for action against Fianna Fail which has taken one of the best performing economies in the World and put us on a par with a debt ridden 3rd world country.

For 800 long years we fought British Rule, this government has overseen the greatest robbery of wealth from the working and middle classes since the Plantations of Ireland under the British Crown.

Fianna Fail has committed Treason against the people and must be removed from office and punished harshly. They cannot be allowed to get away with this. If Ireland was under British rule today and this was happening we would more than happy to rebel and fight for our rights. We must fight these Traitors and get them out when the system of checks and balances in our democracy and constitution have failed to protect the country from the level of economic pillage.

My family before me fought for our freedom and died in the process and seeing what is happening now I would be prepared to put my life on the line and fight to remove these treasonous criminals from office. I can't emigrate and any hopes of becoming successful in life have been destroyed by these criminals and Ireland is now in the same place as we were under British occupation.

Ireland needs you,

Are you man enough?

Are you supplying the guns?

southsiderosie

southsiderosie wrote: »

Care to summarize or even give us an inkling of what this video is about of why we should care?

Summary added to original post.

southsiderosie

Deleted User wrote: »

Peak oil for one the very lifeblood of the modern world has reached it's limits of maxumum extraction and is only going one way from now on, south!

I mentioned full reserve banking further up! the currency is backed by a commodity of value and it's supply is strictly limited relative to that commodity (gold, silver or oil for example) such a move would make "casino economics" impossible. It brings stability to the economy, if it can't boom it wont bust.

I don't see how you can be a critic of the IMF/austerity measures and then be a proponent of the gold standard or some other kind of pegged/fixed currency system at the same time.

Pegged currencies are exactly the kind of thing that the IMF likes to see spendthrift countries engage in. If a country has an open economy and a currency peg, then they cannot run a budget deficit, it's true. But it also means that if there is a global econonic downturn, or domestic economic conditions change, the only way to equalize the economy again is to forcibly bring down prices through both asset and wage deflation (i.e. austerity). In the worst-case scenario, this may lead to rioting, which in turn can lead to state repression; in fact some scholars see the enforcement of the gold standard as contributing to the rise of fascism in Europe in the early 20th century.

Moral of the story: If you are against severe austerity measures, then really the other option is making it easier for countries to run short-term deficits in order to restablize the economy. But by imposing a fixed currency, you would make this very difficult. So, sorry, you have to pick your poison here.

Doublin

19 pages of some going off with side arguments about micro things like credit and our image, global image, future potential etc..What Of These Do We Have Now?
Does anyone who writes this stuff know what the markets(and other owners of what we are paying for, read another post I made earlier re this) would like to do to our economy. Read it up.
I can't read this stuff anymore. It's a joke, rubbish fed by our/EU politicians trying to placate people. I will not have my children/grandchildren be ****ed from birth carrying debts from now. I would not like like to think our generation went down as the most wasteful/indulgent/ignorant/foolish/apathetic (add as want) in Irish history.

I could not write what I would like to do to FF & buddies here but source the facts before you try to defend where this originated, who propelled it to grow, who pushed it to grow when alot of outsiders said this can't last, who kept saying things it was only a blip, who said it wasn't Ireland it was because of foreigners and their sneaky banking dealings:), NAMA is the best thing it won't cost much, Bank Guarantee is only for a short while, we'll be alright in a couple of years, Ok maybe it's going to cost us a few more bob now & the Germans/France(EU) are probably going to ensure we don't have any of the attractive features we used to have for multinational companies who are here.

This is the future we want to hand off?

Jeboa Safari

Doublin wrote: »

19 pages of some going off with side arguments about micro things like credit and our image, global image, future potential etc..What Of These Do We Have Now?
Does anyone who writes this stuff know what the markets(and other owners of what we are paying for, read another post I made earlier re this) would like to do to our economy. Read it up.
I can't read this stuff anymore. It's a joke, rubbish fed by our/EU politicians trying to placate people. I will not have my children/grandchildren be ****ed from birth carrying debts from now. I would not like like to think our generation went down as the most wasteful/indulgent/ignorant/foolish/apathetic (add as want) in Irish history.

I could not write what I would like to do to FF & buddies here but source the facts before you try to defend where this originated, who propelled it to grow, who pushed it to grow when alot of outsiders said this can't last, who kept saying things it was only a blip, who said it wasn't Ireland it was because of foreigners and their sneaky banking dealings:), NAMA is the best thing it won't cost much, Bank Guarantee is only for a short while, we'll be alright in a couple of years, Ok maybe it's going to cost us a few more bob now & the Germans/France(EU) are probably going to ensure we don't have any of the attractive features we used to have for multinational companies who are here.

This is the future we want to hand off?

And what do you suggest?

DHYNZY

southsiderosie wrote: »

I'm not Irish, I'm not currently living in Ireland, and I get most of my news from non-Irish media. The reputation of the Irish government internationally is in tatters , and pretty much every investor in the world is betting that it will tank further. Just because the government likes to engage in magical thinking doesn't mean the rest of the world does.

The Irish government yes, but the Irish nation no. I think this will be an age of austerity globally, and Ireland is no different. We are going to struggle to pull ourselves out of this mess. We are going to suffer for past mistakes by questionable administration, but to say that our reputation as a nation is in tatters globally is inaccurate and damaging. I'm not a 'magical thinker', I'm a realist, but I can see that along with the long slog we have ahead of us we have an immense workforce, both hard-working and educated. And any such well-equipped nation should make a relatively speedy recovery when all the doom&gloomers get tired of their own negative attitude.

southsiderosie

southsiderosie wrote: »

I don't see how you can be a critic of the IMF/austerity measures and then be a proponent of the gold standard or some other kind of pegged/fixed currency system at the same time.

Pegged currencies are exactly the kind of thing that the IMF likes to see spendthrift countries engage in. If a country has an open economy and a currency peg, then they cannot run a budget deficit, it's true. But it also means that if there is a global econonic downturn, or domestic economic conditions change, the only way to equalize the economy again is to forcibly bring down prices through both asset and wage deflation (i.e. austerity). In the worst-case scenario, this may lead to rioting, which in turn can lead to state repression; in fact some scholars see the enforcement of the gold standard as contributing to the rise of fascism in Europe in the early 20th century.

Moral of the story: If you are against severe austerity measures, then really the other option is making it easier for countries to run short-term deficits in order to restablize the economy. But by imposing a fixed currency, you would make this very difficult. So, sorry, you have to pick your poison here.

As for fixed currencies, the Bank of England ran for a several centuries with a stick as the base for the Pound.

The quickest way to stabalise the economy would be to move the banks down the pecking order, they are currently treated like gods by many!

Keep the money in the general economy and only repay the banks when it is prudant to do so, governments can issue currency without banks you know.

round tower huntsman

anger will boil over at the budget. when the 99% are being hurt to pay for the crimes of 1% then a revolt of sorts could happen. hopefully the irish workers will finally say enough, en masse.

Doublin

Hardball. We have no choice imo.

I was going to write alot of things but it all boils down to the above. We owe nothing to intl funds really if you look at it objectively. They live on situations like ours, these are big players who yes get hurt individually by a couple of million now, but thats the game they play. But, they know that, thats what happens, they can adjust easily. Hell, I've done it on a smaller scale with investments before.

I haven't looked into this too closely(because it just annoys me such now) but I would play hardball with the EU to make funds available with a lower int rate, leaving our corp int rate intact, giving support for our SME's, should they would be worried if we left then let them prove it.

Otherwise if there are bully boy tactics from Europe, I would leave and let them show the world how they didn't support their own. I believe the Eurozone would not last too long after that.. I would either join the Scandinavians, or as another post, I'd hook up with North Korea, get nuclear weapons, then get the US to buy us off to get rid of them, feck it. when nobody else gives you a break, you take it.

paky

Stinicker wrote: »

The time has long since passed for action against Fianna Fail which has taken one of the best performing economies in the World and put us on a par with a debt ridden 3rd world country.

For 800 long years we fought British Rule, this government has overseen the greatest robbery of wealth from the working and middle classes since the Plantations of Ireland under the British Crown.

Fianna Fail has committed Treason against the people and must be removed from office and punished harshly. They cannot be allowed to get away with this. If Ireland was under British rule today and this was happening we would more than happy to rebel and fight for our rights. We must fight these Traitors and get them out when the system of checks and balances in our democracy and constitution have failed to protect the country from the level of economic pillage.

My family before me fought for our freedom and died in the process and seeing what is happening now I would be prepared to put my life on the line and fight to remove these treasonous criminals from office. I can't emigrate and any hopes of becoming successful in life have been destroyed by these criminals and Ireland is now in the same place as we were under British occupation.

Ireland needs you,

Are you man enough?

Op if I was going to revolt against the government in an insurgency way this is what I would do: i would single out members of Fianna Fail and target them, i think this would be very effective. I would burn their offices and disrupt all their events too. Public casualties would be kept to a minimum and safer than all out armed conflict i think.
I think like minded people would follow suit. It would be very ruthless.

DHYNZY

paky wrote: »

Op if I was going to revolt against the government in an insurgency way this is what I would do: i would single out members of Fianna Fail and target them, i think this would be very effective. I would burn their offices and disrupt all their events too. Public casualties would be kept to a minimum and safer than all out armed conflict i think.
I think like minded people would follow suit. It would be very ruthless.

and now the topic has officially gotten out of hand.

La_Gordy

I don't understand why a revolt has not happened. I truly wish it would but between fear and apathy Irish people seem paralysed.

round tower huntsman

tbh if there isnt some sort of revolt then im sure this will happen again to my kids or grandkids. we've bailed the banks before bout 20 yrs ago,still paying for that,and here we are again. until the political class are too afraid to fcuk with the workers they'll keep fcuking us. true they might take it easy for a few yrs but soon enough they'll be ramming it in dry.

southsiderosie

DHYNZY wrote: »

The Irish government yes, but the Irish nation no. I think this will be an age of austerity globally, and Ireland is no different. We are going to struggle to pull ourselves out of this mess. We are going to suffer for past mistakes by questionable administration, but to say that our reputation as a nation is in tatters globally is inaccurate and damaging. I'm not a 'magical thinker', I'm a realist, but I can see that along with the long slog we have ahead of us we have an immense workforce, both hard-working and educated. And any such well-equipped nation should make a relatively speedy recovery when all the doom&gloomers get tired of their own negative attitude.

What?!?! Ireland has a workforce of less than 2 million people, and according to a recent CSO report which I have linked multiple times and am too lazy to link again, employment levels are back to their 1998 levels; i.e. a decade of employment gains have been lost. Smaller workforce = less government revenue. And the budget deficit is expected to hit 32% of GDP - in a country that cannot inflate its way out of debt, that is astounding.

Deleted User wrote: »

As for fixed currencies, the Bank of England ran for a several centuries with a stick as the base for the Pound.

The quickest way to stabalise the economy would be to move the banks down the pecking order, they are currently treated like gods by many!

Keep the money in the general economy and only repay the banks when it is prudant to do so, governments can issue currency without banks you know.

The tally stick you linked to seems to be an accounting method due to a shortage of notes, not a method for managing the actual value of a currency. You either fix your currency or let it float; that has nothing to do with whether you use a stick or a bank ledger. As as a member of the eurozone, Ireland cannot issue its own currency.

I agree that banks are being treated too kindly by the government, but that was a political decision by Fianna Fail, not something inherent to banking itself.

Doublin wrote: »

I haven't looked into this too closely(because it just annoys me such now) but I would play hardball with the EU to make funds available with a lower int rate, leaving our corp int rate intact, giving support for our SME's, should they would be worried if we left then let them prove it.

Otherwise if there are bully boy tactics from Europe, I would leave and let them show the world how they didn't support their own. I believe the Eurozone would not last too long after that.. I would either join the Scandinavians, or as another post, I'd hook up with North Korea, get nuclear weapons, then get the US to buy us off to get rid of them, feck it. when nobody else gives you a break, you take it.

Um, the ECB has essentially done this by buying Irish debt. If they had not intervened in the market, the interest rate would likely be higher right now. Maybe you should look into it more closely.

Also, please explain to me why the non-economic basketcase countries of the euro zone would be sorry to see Ireland leave? The Germans would be thrilled, especially if you took Greece with you. And why in the world would the well-organized Scandinavians want anything to do with the Irish government?

Sorry, but the idea that a small island nation with billions of euros of debt and a population of just over 4 million people can play hardball with anyone is laughable. You can play hardball with your own government however, which nobody seems to be willing to do (well except for the usual suspects).

DHYNZY

southsiderosie wrote: »

What?!?! Ireland has a workforce of less than 2 million people, and according to a recent CSO report which I have linked multiple times and am too lazy to link again, employment levels are back to their 1998 levels; i.e. a decade of employment gains have been lost. Smaller workforce = less government revenue. And the budget deficit is expected to hit 32% of GDP - in a country that cannot inflate its way out of debt, that is astounding.

I imagine we are doing much WORSE than 1998. That statistic in this climate is meaningless. Highlighting the budget deficit is similarly pointless. Smaller government = less revenue, but I'm not asking for a seat on the nato security council. I'm saying we have a fantastic workforce to be taken advantage of, as many pharma companies are already doing, and we have none of the burdens of the bigger nations (enormous defence budgets). At the minute we have droves of graduates having to leave the country instead of joining the workforce, which is a travesty, but not irreversible. Hard to believe you are belittling the enormous skill and work ethic of the Irish workforce that has always stood above economics. A small nation we are, but a proud one of outstanding people, and I guarantee we as a nation will bounce back in good time.

YOP1992

would never happen or work if it did, BOOM

southsiderosie

DHYNZY wrote: »

I imagine we are doing much WORSE than 1998. That statistic in this climate is meaningless. Highlighting the budget deficit is similarly pointless. Smaller government = less revenue, but I'm not asking for a seat on the nato security council. I'm saying we have a fantastic workforce to be taken advantage of, as many pharma companies are already doing, and we have none of the burdens of the bigger nations (enormous defence budgets). At the minute we have droves of graduates having to leave the country instead of joining the workforce, which is a travesty, but not irreversible. Hard to believe you are belittling the enormous skill and work ethic of the Irish workforce that has always stood above economics. A small nation we are, but a proud one of outstanding people.

None of the burdens? You have a BIGGER deficit than most of the larger European nations - and that's without a massive army! And you simply cannot ignore the budget figures - they impact the willingness of MNCs to invest (they are already revolting over the proposed corporate tax hike), the ability of the Irish government to invest in human capital (the cuts in university funding have already affected their international ranking), and the ability to add jobs to the economy that could soak up some of the excess labor force.

And stop with the cheap patriotism. Nowhere on this thread have I belittled Irish workers. I have kept my belittling to Irish policymakers.

DHYNZY

southsiderosie wrote: »

None of the burdens? You have a BIGGER deficit than most of the larger European nations - and that's without a massive army! And you simply cannot ignore the budget figures - they impact the willingness of MNCs to invest (they are already revolting over the proposed corporate tax hike), the ability of the Irish government to invest in human capital (the cuts in university funding have already affected their international ranking), and the ability to add jobs to the economy that could soak up some of the excess labor force.

And stop with the cheap patriotism. Nowhere on this thread have I belittled Irish workers. I have kept my belittling to Irish policymakers.

Maybe I'm wrong, but has a member of the Irish government proposed the tax hike.. or was it a tag line quote from an MEP? I'm not suggesting to ignore the figures, I'm suggesting that as part of a long-term strategy the figures aren't overwhelming, and in particular with the assets that we have as a nation we shouldn't find it difficult in the long run to encourage investment as long as we keep a calm head. The cuts in University funding was required, we still pay less than most countries, and the monetary abuses of most third level institutions was as criminal as the banks (trinity is still paying three provosts an enormous 6 figure sum). And Enterprise are already attracting foreign based companies, as I have already said, with newly adjusted wage levels. This has already happened. Its a long road back up, but not insurmountable.


And its not cheap patriotism to reassert the historical brilliance of the Irish work ethic. We have a long history of economic turbulence and every time we have risen above it. And yes you did belittle the Irish workforce when you made them out to be a paltry sum in the face of such a magnitude of rising debt.


We're a stubborn little nation, and won't be going anywhere any time soon

th3 s1aught3r

DHYNZY wrote: »

And its not cheap patriotism to reassert the historical brilliance of the Irish work ethic. We have a long history of economic turbulence and every time we have risen above it. And yes you did belittle the Irish workforce when you made them out to be a paltry sum in the face of such a magnitude of rising debt.


We're a stubborn little nation, and won't be going anywhere any time soon

The Irish workforce usually emigrated when times got bad