Armed Revolt, Coup d'état Would you support it?

sligopark

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

We gorged ourselves on cheap credit (that if used wisely could have been the making of this country) and now that the party is over and we're expected to make good on the bill we whinge about the very people who let us in.

not we - them - this is the point - thank you - good night

southsiderosie

buzzdroid wrote: »

i just pointed out that they were private transactions between private banks.

in a free market this is allowed to happen. what is becoming increasingly clear is that these bad loans are being bailed out by the Irish taxpayer , in order to save German banks. In other words - WE are going to pay for reckless lending from the Germans. Because we're a bunch of paddies who are thick and dont matter to the Germans.

Yes, but the BANKS are not the ones who decided that the Irish taxpayers would pay them back, the IRISH GOVERNMENT made this commitment. German investors should have to take a haircut and cut their losses just like any other investors who make unwise decisions. But YOUR GOVERNMENT prevented this from happening.

Also, you have to keep in mind who is actually investing in Irish sovereign debt - it isn't just private debt at issue here. The Irish government is borrowing millions on international capital markets in order to function, and many of those investors are Germans as well. So even if the government gives the finger to private investors over private borrowing, it would affect their public borrowing.

southsiderosie

buzzdroid wrote: »

i stand by my "withdraw from the EU" idea. it is utterly corrupt and incapable of imposing any sort of good governance on our country.

Well, I agree with the good governance in Ireland part, but I don't think that the lack of good governance in Ireland is the fault of the EU...

Super-Rush

sligopark wrote: »

this is this country's only salvation only the EU are intent on stealing our farming and fishing and condemning us to enslavement and poverty.



Micky why ask me not to post again?

Because you are trolling.

Post again and i will ban you.

I can be contacted by pm anytime.

sligopark

southsiderosie wrote: »

The Germans are heavily invested all over Europe because they save a lot and their economy is export-oriented.

no its not because they are savers or cheap pricks - its because aftet the war they were not forced to repay war debt and were allowed start anew because of the realisation if they were forced to be so debt ridden it would destroy their economy and with it France, and the European Union vision.

buzzdroid

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes, but the BANKS are not the ones who decided that the Irish taxpayers would pay them back, the IRISH GOVERNMENT made this commitment. German investors should have to take a haircut and cut their losses just like any other investors who make unwise decisions. But YOUR GOVERNMENT prevented this from happening.

Also, you have to keep in mind who is actually investing in Irish sovereign debt - it isn't just private debt at issue here. The Irish government is borrowing millions on international capital markets in order to function, and many of those investors are Germans as well. So even if the government gives the finger to private investors over private borrowing, it would affect their public borrowing.

yes, but you are saying that the Irish government made that guarantee decision entirely independently.

thats not how the EU works.


my guess is that they were TOLD to do it.

Voodoomelon

buzzdroid wrote: »

army on the streets? you can vouch for that? are your contacts credible?

Word in the barracks in Dundalk. Not martial law as such, but riot prevention (all the lads are trained in riot control).

buzzdroid

southsiderosie wrote: »

Well, I agree with the good governance in Ireland part, but I don't think that the lack of good governance in Ireland is the fault of the EU...

cheap money without good governance = corruption. and the cheap money without good governance was coming from? The ECB


i'm sorry - you cannot escape that fact. it happened. just deal with it. and wake up to it.

Sticky_Fingers

buzzdroid wrote: »

so in summary, your view is that the Irish Republic , as an independent nation, is OVER. and we'd better get used to it.


yes - i concur. to paraphrase David McWilliams, your stance is "facing up to reality". i just ask - is this a reality that we want? or do we need to create a new reality.

if you are happy with the Germans ruling Ireland for the next 100 years, then fine. but are you truely happy about this? that is the question.

We lost our true independence long ago, we got our 30 pieces of silver for it. I'm not saying it was a good deal but that is reality as I see it and wishing otherwise will not make it so.
As for Germany ruling Ireland, do you for one second think that the Germans want anything to do with us. They would be more then happy if we sank into the Atlantic because we are just another runt of a country (I make no apologies for using this term) that they are obliged to support. No one is happy with the situation, not the Germans, who are pissed off, the Irish, who are usually pissed or the rest of the Eurozone who are pissing their pants.

I lived with a German and he told me that the West Germans are unhappy with having to support the East German economy, so unhappy that many wish that reunification never occurred. If they feel that way about their own people how do you think they feel about us.

buzzdroid

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Word in the barracks in Dundalk. Not martial law as such, but riot prevention (all the lads are trained in riot control).

jaysus.. sounds like they'll deploy army guys rather than garda. folks would be far less willing to attack army folks. i mean, why the hell would you hurl a rock at your neighbours son who only joined the FCA last year? doesnt make any sense whatsoever.


good move on the government's part - folks wont be violent because of this. which gets back to my earlier point - in Romania, it wasnt the civilians that did the revolt - it was the army , that turned.

Voodoomelon

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

No one is happy with the situation, not the Germans, who are pissed off, the Irish, who are usually pissed or the rest of the Eurozone who are pissing their pants.

Quote of the week!

Stinicker

The Government are already planning for Civil unrest and this year changed the firearm licensing procedures in a subtle bid to disarm the populace. A shotgun went from €6/year to €80 for 3 years. They vaguely attempted to disguise it as a crime prevention measure when infact it is aimed at forcing people to disarm as they knew for a long time exactly what was going to happen, but made sure they covered themselves and their bankers and developer friends.

In the United States the private Militia would never ever allow the destruction of their country to the same level as Fianna Fail have done here and freedom of guns in the US Constitution is part of the system of checks and balances to protect a country from itself.

If Bertie Ahern, Cowen and Lenihan were Americans and did this they would tried for treason.

As a pacifist I am against violence but these guys deserve the long drop tbh, I would gladly give the peaceful option a try first and put thousands on the streets outside Leinster House until the Dail is dissolved and a General Election called. However if the Taoiseach refuses to go then armed revolt is then only option and storm the Dail and overthrow them by force.

Considering that boards.ie is quite liberal is various issues I am of the opinion that if this question was asked to the general populace by the media it would return over a two thirds majority in favour of armed Intervention against Fianna Fail now.

The first step by any new Government must be the outlawing and banning of the Fianna Fail parliamentary party for Treason.

buzzdroid

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

I lived with a German and he told me that the West Germans are unhappy with having to support the East German economy, so unhappy that many wish that reunification never occurred. If they feel that way about their own people how do you think they feel about us.

bang on.

the wessie v ossie split.


they dont give a crap about ireland. they just want their money back.

buzzdroid

Stinicker wrote: »

The first step by any new Government must be the outlawing and banning of the Fianna Fail parliamentary party for Treason.

agree 100 per cent.

Voodoomelon

Stinicker wrote: »

The Government are already planning for Civil unrest and this year changed the firearm licensing procedures in a subtle bid to disarm the populace. A shotgun went from €6/year to €80 for 3 years. They vaguely attempted to disguise it as a crime prevention measure when infact it is aimed at forcing people to disarm as they knew for a long time exactly what was going to happen, but made sure they covered themselves and their bankers and developer friends.

Whilst this does sound plausible, not even they could have foreseen how bad things would get, and several firearms laws were changed a fair while ago.

The whole non-issuing of new handgun licences and clamping down on re-issuing them was a knee jerk reaction to the troubles in Limerick. Ahern had to be seen to do something and so banned legally held pistols which had absolutely zero to do with any crimes committed in over a decade.

The new forms and fees for licencing of shotguns and rifles is certainly a headache, but hardly steps towards disarming the population, €2.20 a month to own a shotgun is hardly breaking the bank.

southsiderosie

buzzdroid wrote: »

yes, but you are saying that the Irish government made that guarantee decision entirely independently.

thats not how the EU works.


my guess is that they were TOLD to do it.

If I remember correctly (and this RTE article seems to suggest it), the ECB and other EU countries were not pleased with the bank guarantee when it happened. Perhaps if there had actually been some kind of public debate or disclosure about the process, the details would be less murky.

Look, nobody made the Irish, Greek, or Spanish governments go on spending sprees. Nobody told the Irish government to try and manipulate the government books to underplay liabilities from Anglo. And nobody says that EU member state HAVE to follow the directives of the EU; the Spaniards have certainly resisted making deep Irish-style cuts, and just got a huge exemption from the EU for their mining industry. Now why would the Spanish government push back against neoliberal economic orthodoxy and the Irish government basically roll over? I'd argue a significant difference is the fact that Spanish citizens PUSH BACK AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENT. The fact that the unions called a general strike against a socialist government was a HUGE deal, and you regularly see street protests in Madrid.

tl; dr: the fact that the streets of Dublin are quiet and will likely remain so probably explains the high-handed murky process in which the government has "handled" the economic crisis, and to blame it on Germans, or the ECB, or the man in the moon will not change the basic fact that the Irish people have the democratic institutions to get rid of this government, or at least change the direction of its policies, but are choosing not to do so.

buzzdroid

i dont count union strikes.. they're in the pocket of the EU anyway.

concretegate truck man is more valid. and based on the headlines he got , it certainly shocked folks. and theres more to come.

Mr Benevolent

NO. Armed force would never work and the economy would lslide down the drain completely if that happened. Anyway, we don't need an armed revolt, the EFSF will be here soon.

And I for one will welcome them.

mickydoomsux

buzzdroid wrote: »

concretegate truck man is more valid.

Oh you mean the headcase that thought driving a truck into a public building would get rid of his €3M debt?

Another one of the "anyones fault but mine" brigade.

southsiderosie

buzzdroid wrote: »

cheap money without good governance = corruption. and the cheap money without good governance was coming from? The ECB


i'm sorry - you cannot escape that fact. it happened. just deal with it. and wake up to it.

What? The ECB only sets interest rates; it is not responsible for how governments spend their money, nor how they regulate their banks. You cannot complain about Irish sovereignty and then complain that the ECB didn't do enough to constrain Irish politicians and bankers.

Look, Ireland has three choices. It can behave as grown-up nations do, and learn how to balance its fiscal policies and growth rates against its monetary policies (which Ireland has no control over). It can wed itself to a bigger country that has relatively responsible leaders and just let them handle everything - let's call this the "kid" option (or perhaps more accurately, the British option - the German's don't want you). Or it can go back to autarky, and pretend like a small speck of rock in the North Atlantic can go it alone (the Dev option). Ireland has now been through all three of these "life" phases, and none of them were particularly successful. What would you suggest moving forward?

buzzdroid

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Oh you mean the headcase that thought driving a truck into a public building would get rid of his €3M debt?

Another one of the "anyones fault but mine" brigade.

Like Brian Lenihan. Or Cowen.

How much are FF paying you to post on here?

Scarinae

Stinicker wrote: »

As a pacifist I am against violence...

Are you serious? You started a thread suggesting an armed revolt against the government, that hardly makes you a pacifist

southsiderosie

buzzdroid wrote: »

i dont count union strikes.. they're in the pocket of the EU anyway.

concretegate truck man is more valid. and based on the headlines he got , it certainly shocked folks. and theres more to come.

Yes, one person blocking a driveway is more important that thousands of people across dozens of cities protesting. And all of those people were in the pocket of the EU, which loves industrial action. Right.

At this point, I think you are just posting whatever is the opposite of what the person before you said.

buzzdroid

southsiderosie wrote: »

What? The ECB only sets interest rates; it is not responsible for how governments spend their money, nor how they regulate their banks. You cannot complain about Irish sovereignty and then complain that the ECB didn't do enough to constrain Irish politicians and bankers.

dont you think that the ECB should have given out money with at least SOME oversight?


if they did not do that , then what is the point of the ECB?

Stinicker

Fishie wrote: »

Are you serious? You started a thread suggesting an armed revolt against the government, that hardly makes you a pacifist

Today was the straw that broke the camels back. If they won't go then they will have to be forced out by any means necessary.

ascanbe

southsiderosie wrote: »

If I remember correctly (and this RTE article seems to suggest it), the ECB and other EU countries were not pleased with the bank guarantee when it happened. Perhaps if there had actually been some kind of public debate or disclosure about the process, the details would be less murky.

Look, nobody made the Irish, Greek, or Spanish governments go on spending sprees. Nobody told the Irish government to try and manipulate the government books to underplay liabilities from Anglo. And nobody says that EU member state HAVE to follow the directives of the EU; the Spaniards have certainly resisted making deep Irish-style cuts, and just got a huge exemption from the EU for their mining industry. Now why would the Spanish government push back against neoliberal economic orthodoxy and the Irish government basically roll over? I'd argue a significant difference is the fact that Spanish citizens PUSH BACK AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENT. The fact that the unions called a general strike against a socialist government was a HUGE deal, and you regularly see street protests in Madrid.

tl; dr: the fact that the streets of Dublin are quiet and will likely remain so probably explains the high-handed murky process in which the government has "handled" the economic crisis, and to blame it on Germans, or the ECB, or the man in the moon will not change the basic fact that the Irish people have the democratic institutions to get rid of this government, or at least change the direction of its policies, but are choosing not to do so.

You're right; it's up to the Irish people to bring this government down and insist upon the change needed to save the country.
That they/we haven't so far is not due to apathy, though; as many here and elsewhere proclaim.
It is due to fact that people are, quite frankly, terrified.

This govt. has been able to continue along this path and cow the public by convincing people that any show of resistance will frighten the markets and sink us, yadda, yadda, yadda.
It's symptomatic of what has been, to all intents and purposes, a one-party state since the the time of independence; in a way, it's the same combination of ignorance and fear that stops people in, say, North Korea from rising up.
'As long as they don't completely sink us, they're better than any alternative that might', is the thinking that has kept FF in power so long.
Unfortunately, it's this very default mode that, unless it changes soon, will seal our fate.

southsiderosie

buzzdroid wrote: »

dont you think that the ECB should have given out money with at least SOME oversight?


if they did not do that , then what is the point of the ECB?

The ECB sets interest rates. They do not tell governments how to spend their money. The EU stability and growth pact calls for euro zone countries to keep their budget deficits under 3% of GDP, but that's it.

I'd also add that other EU countries had been warning about Ireland's lax banking and financial regulatory institutions (or lack thereof) for years; it didn't earn the nickname "Liechtenstein on the Liffey" for nothing.

Stinicker

The Dole has kept people pretty quite up until now, however come Decembers Budget and its slashing to €150/week and further IMF slashing to between €80 to €100/week will awaken the general populace and I can guarantee that this Government will be gone by May day 2011.

buzzdroid

southsiderosie wrote: »

The ECB sets interest rates. They do not tell governments how to spend their money. The EU stability and growth pact calls for euro zone countries to keep their budget deficits under 3% of GDP, but that's it.

I'd also add that other EU countries had been warning about Ireland's lax banking and financial regulatory institutions (or lack thereof) for years; it didn't earn the nickname "Liechtenstein on the Liffey" for nothing.

so the EU project has failed. and failed utterly.

Cuchulain2010

Yes, the time has come, how are we letting these fools destroy our future, our kids future even our grandkids future!!