Ireland's best bjj players

Doug Cartel

SBG Ireland wrote: »

then can you show reasonable evidence of one athlete of a 'complicated' sport/activity who achieved elite status (maybe a tennis player winning a few grand slams) that had not completed approx 10,000hrs of purposeful/perfect practice but instead had 'innate talent'

Not off the top of my head, no. It's not what I'm arguing though, so I'm not sure why you're asking me this.

SBG Ireland

Doug Cartel wrote: »

What about all those washed up could-have-beens and burned out child prodigies that practised night and day under strict supervision and never ever made it? They just weren't practising enough? Weren't doing it right?

really, thats a question?

there's a clue in your answer....'burned out'....the ones who died in accidents didnt make it either....because they 'died'

you need to get the hours in
AND remain in the sport
thought that would be obvious....

SBG Ireland

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Not off the top of my head, no. It's not what I'm arguing though, so I'm not sure why you're asking me this.

lol

because you said

he just said that it would be possible to find reasonable evidence that some people have an innate talent

what is the evidence??

SBG Ireland

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I'm just saying that it would be possible to cherry pick a study or two on the importance of genetics at elite level sport and write a "counter" argument.

well in the book he shows example after example of athletes who are commonly referred to as 'talented' or 'genetically' disposed towards a certain sport (such as the Kenyan long distance runners) that it was nothing to do with 'talent' or 'genetics'

so for a 'counter' argument i'd like to see example after example of athletes who reached to top of their sport through 'talent' rather than 10,000hrs...

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Are you trying to say that things like more fast twitch fibres, greater lung capacity, longer femurs, larger feet, longer arms, greater hand-eye coordination and so on are irrelevant?

im not 'trying' to say it nor is the author...but why it doesnt matter is covered in depth in the book

funny anecdote from the book....britains greatest close table table player...ie standing close to the table once thought to be reliant on 'hand eye co-ordination' was shown to have the worse 'hand eye coordination of the entire team....how he became the greatest close table player was very interesting...

Doug Cartel

What you're actually asking for is evidence that practice doesn't count towards success. I'm not arguing that.

Pontificatus

I've just emailed Sir Steve Redgrave to ask if he practiced for 10,000 hours before winning his first gold medal at elite level. He was 22 when he won his first Olympic gold for the record. Hopefully i'll get a reply.

I dont think anyone is arguing that a significant amount of training practice is required to achieve elite level in any sport. However i dont think 10000 hours is that magic number. It could be significantly less for many people who are built the right way for their chosen sport AND some people, no matter how many hours of practice the do will ever reach an elite level.

BobbyOLeary

SBG Ireland wrote: »

can you show reasonable evidence of one athlete of a 'complicated' sport/activity who achieved elite status (maybe a tennis player winning a few grand slams) that had not completed approx 10,000hrs of purposeful/perfect practice but instead had 'innate talent'

I'm confused as to why you're still hammering on about this 10,000 hours. How do you know exactly how many hours any athlete has put into their work unless you follow them relentlessly. Talking to them afterwards isn't the most reliable source of information. Anywho, I don't think anyone is arguing over whether or not people need 10,000 hours to become elite at something. What is being argued is that while everyone who does become elite probably has 10,000 hours done not everyone who does 10,000 hours is elite.

If this was the case then my 100m example from a few pages ago wouldn't exist.

Look at the olympics nowadays. China is becoming the biggest medal winner, not because the Americans can't put in 10,000 hours but because the Chinese have a wider pool of people to pick from and logically, a wider gene pool to pick from too. Thus more talented people being given their chance at 10,000 hours and so, more medal winners.

SBG Ireland

Damn you making me come back on this thread Barry haha

Forget I brought it up guys , maybe it is all genetics and talent

prince vlad

Any of you guys competing on Saturday's BJJ Nationals?

Barry.Oglesby

SBG Ireland wrote: »

Damn you making me come back on this thread Barry haha

Forget I brought it up guys , maybe it is all genetics and talent

Ah that's only cos you're losing

My point has never been that 10,000 hours or whatever (let's just say lots of training, lots) is unneccesary, just that the canvas is broad and that a lot of things play a part. Off the top of my head:

-commitment
-genetic predisposition
-support network (be it family, friends, good public transport or whatever)
-coaching
-peers
-finances

would all play a significant part in reaching the top.

SBG Ireland

im so disappointed in myself right now....

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

My point has never been that 10,000 hours or whatever (let's just say lots of training, lots) is unneccesary, just that the canvas is broad and that a lot of things play a part.

which is why i wrote...

there are a number of factors that do have to come together at the right time...the perfect storm...to produce a champion

Coaching - the athlete must have access to a coach who is an expert in the technical aspects of the chosen sport - without the knowledge the practice or length of time training is irrelevant. beginners coaching beginners actually slows down their progress.


time - the athlete must be able to practice. it takes about 4-5hrs a day for 10 years to log 10,000hrs....if you have a wife, 2 girlfriends, 3 jobs and 5 kids this may not be achievable.

love/addiction - you must absolutely LOVE the activity. 'will power' 'work ethic' 'hard work'...all bull****....if you do not LOVE doing it you will not put in those type of hours.

the only thing i am arguing against (because the book completely disproves it) is the idea that some people are born with an innate 'talent' or 'natural ability' or 'gift' to play bjj or any complicated sport/activity for that matter

Barry.Oglesby

SBG Ireland wrote: »

im so disappointed in myself right now....

Don't be. You're invested in it. It has you. This is how boards makes advertising money.

the only thing i am arguing against (because the book completely disproves it) is the idea that some people are born with an innate 'talent' or 'natural ability' or 'gift' to play bjj or any complicated sport/activity for that matter

As I've said, I don't think it does or can, nor can any book since there's a preponderance of evidence to suggest that genetic predisposition plays a massive part in which sport chooses you. I've read the study on which this (and actually about 5 books) are based.

To be honest I think we're going in circles now and we're probably mostly in agreement. (practise more and practise smarter). I also think we're dealing with a sport that has multiple planes in which different "types" of players can find their niche. So the genetic argument may well be void.

1) weight classes mean all sizes can compete
2) the nature of the game means different body types can be accomodated (ie. long lean guard players, shorter takedown and top specialists)
3) gi can slow down a more athletic player

and a number of other things. What I mean is that it's not a power sport like sprinting, nor a specialist endurance sport like running, or even a tall man game like basketball or rowing.

cowzerp

SBG Ireland wrote: »

the only thing i am arguing against (because the book completely disproves it) is the idea that some people are born with an innate 'talent' or 'natural ability' or 'gift' to play bjj or any complicated sport/activity for that matter

I'm confused, now it looks like your either half agreeing with the majority or back tracking or else just on a totally different page to most in the debate and there/we're not getting you!

I don't think anyone is claiming that someone can just walk into BJJ and be lethal over night but some people have obvious abilities that you can tell with practise they will be special, 4 examples of this from the football world would be Robbie Fowler, Michael Owen, Wayne Rooney and Joe Cole who from an early age (well before 10000 hrs) where known that they had that special something from all the other kids and where destined to reach the top and did, there are numerous others who would have trained as much as them and simply did not have the extra gifts that cant always be learned, vision, killer instinct, chin or whatever else needed depending on the sport!

I'm taking from this that your taking people saying natural talent as been that they dont need to practise etc and if thats what you mean then i agree with you, talent has to be nurtured to reach it's potential.

ps, Bj Penn won the BJJ world title in under 4 years, based on him training every day for 4 full years he would have had to train almost 7 hours a day to make up the 10000 hour magic number, they don't call him the prodigy for nothing.

Jason McCabe

I tend to side with John's point of view here.

I've seen people start at the same time. One who appears to have more athletism or natural potential and the other with less.

The one with less trains more often and after only a short period starts to best the other person.

I've seen this on multiple occasions.

Now of course natural ability plus work ethic is what we really want to see.

But I for sure would rather have a hard worker than a Natural who half commits in my class.

SBG Ireland

My point/position has not changed, just most still don't get it

If anybody actually reads the book and has a counter argument I'd love to hear it

wetdogsmell

ignorance is great, i can completely disagree with anything scientificly proven with years of reserch, and still be 100% sure i'm right

Doug Cartel

wetdogsmell wrote: »

ignorance is great, i can completely disagree with anything scientificly proven with years of reserch, and still be 100% sure i'm right

So what did you think of the data collection methods for the analysis of violinists used in the Ericcsson study? In particular the differences they found between the "good" violinists and the "best" violinists?

pablohoney87

"Talent" counts for nothing.
Practice counts for nothing.
All that matters is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3qncy5Qfk&feature=related

Sid_Justice

What characteristics make the best coaches? Is there a coaching gene ? Or is it the guy who spent 10000 hours at the top of the class telling ppl their horse stance isn't deep enough.

wetdogsmell

Doug Cartel wrote: »

So what did you think of the data collection methods for the analysis of violinists used in the Ericcsson study? In particular the differences they found between the "good" violinists and the "best" violinists?

i was against it

yomchi

Sid_Justice wrote: »

What characteristics make the best coaches? Is there a coaching gene ? Or is it the guy who spent 10000 hours at the top of the class telling ppl their horse stance isn't deep enough.

That's instructing not coaching

Finian123

bjj-fighter wrote: »

Fantastic! I don't recall ever seeing him compete or place in a competition so
I'm just wondering what he has been in or won? But maybe some of the more experienced lads have seen him.

Michael devlin I have heard of though and have seen him perform well.

he has competited in irish opens british opens donegal open and other abroad places. he was jkshin jiu-jistiu champion 2003.

BJJBJ90

first of all i think this whole argument (albeit a very interesting one) has strayed from the original qustion and shud be in a forum of its own. in my opinion i like to watch tom king and darragh o'connoil to compete the most as well as paddy houllahan(dunno how to spell his last name) i find them very technical but also very exciting... as part of the whole natural talent argument i didnt read all the post so sum1 mite hav sed this but is it not a natural talent to push urself mentally to train 10000 hours or watever? there are very few ppl who can do purposeful training for that length of time and as such i deem that a natural talent to committ and dedicate urself to that much purposefull training ...i think to say that there is no such thing as natural talent in a mental or physical way is wrong but thats my own opinion

yomchi

first of all i think this whole argument (albeit a very interesting one) has strayed from the original qustion and shud be in a forum of its own. in my opinion i like to watch tom king and darragh o'connoil to compete the most as well as paddy houllahan(dunno how to spell his last name) i find them very technical but also very exciting... as part of the whole natural talent argument i didnt read all the post so sum1 mite hav sed this but is it not a natural talent to push urself mentally to train 10000 hours or watever? there are very few ppl who can do purposeful training for that length of time and as such i deem that a natural talent to committ and dedicate urself to that much purposefull training ...i think to say that there is no such thing as natural talent in a mental or physical way is wrong but thats my own opinion

Welcome to the forum, please don't use text speak it's a pet hate of mine but more importantly it's in the charter which you should give a read first.

k tnx

Johnick

fergal_q wrote: »

Francis Galvin and Chris Bowe are both awesome too

Chris got his Purple belt a while ago, long overdue, but when your a blue belt and you beat a Fabricio Werdum black belt in the open ... you kinda earn it ;-).

NG-DOC

Johnick wrote: »

Chris got his Purple belt a while ago, long overdue, but when your a blue belt and you beat a Fabricio Werdum black belt in the open ... you kinda earn it ;-).

this sounds like a pretty interesting story.

what tournament was this in? gi or nogi? why was a black belt competing against a blue belt?

details

paganist

I hear Marcelo Garcia has an Irish lad training in his gym in New york.
He's from monaghan a blue belt I think.
Anyone know him?

Johnick

NG-DOC wrote: »

this sounds like a pretty interesting story.

what tournament was this in? gi or nogi? why was a black belt competing against a blue belt?

details

It was no gi, cant remember what the tournament was but It was one of the smaller ones. Chris won the Blue belt open so Braullio asked him to enter the purple belt, he won that to so then he asked him to enter the black belt open, thats how he wound up fighting that black belt. He got his Purple belt straight after.

bjj-fighter

Ah it'd need a lot more information for me to not be skeptical about that. Its Werdum like, ADCC 09 Hw Champ.

fergal_q

It was the British open nogi 2010. Chris won the advanced division in his weight category and was allowed to enter the elite division. In the elite absolute division he was matched with and beat one of Werdums black belts not Werdum himself. the results are up on www.nogibritishopen.com. He got bronze in the nogi absolute elite division.

bjj-fighter

Now thats a great result, more realistic too! ha. Well done to him!

Sid_Justice

bjj-fighter wrote: »

Ah it'd need a lot more information for me to not be skeptical about that. Its Werdum like, ADCC 09 Hw Champ.

yeah he says werdum black belt not werdum

paddyzipper

Francis Galvin GB Tralee!!Awsome

r_obric

why not have a tournament to solve it?

open weight, all fighters purple and above that are either irish or living in ireland.......

EnjoyChoke

r_obric wrote: »

why not have a tournament to solve it?

open weight, all fighters purple and above that are either irish or living in ireland.......

This would obviously have to be held on a craggy mountain top, during a thunderstorm, in the heart of Brazil, so there may be some safety issues.

r_obric

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

This would obviously have to be held on a craggy mountain top, during a thunderstorm, in the heart of Brazil, so there may be some safety issues.

or in a sports hall.....

tj_penn

r_obric wrote: »

why not have a tournament to solve it?

open weight, all fighters purple and above that are either irish or living in ireland.......

That would be class

EnjoyChoke

r_obric wrote: »

or in a sports hall.....

Thought you were joking Ruairi

120KG purple belt player beats 78KG purple belt player by a single advantage, who is the better player?
Or a 100kg competitive Adult purple belt beats 70kg non competitive older brown belt?

In any case, who cares? Just roll.

r_obric

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Thought you were joking Ruairi

120KG purple belt player beats 78KG purple belt player by a single advantage, who is the better player?
Or a 100kg competitive Adult purple belt beats 70kg non competitive older brown belt?

In any case, who cares? Just roll.

nope, maybe do two weights, it would be class to see the best grapplers in ireland on the mat competing.....

cowzerp

As much as i'd like to see the top lads competing i dont think it would prove who is the best as 2 equally good opponents with a weigh difference you would expect the bigger stonger opponent to win, Lb for lb best another words would be hard to prove unless the little man did beat the big men!!

Still it would be a great event if it ever happened.

EnjoyChoke

r_obric wrote: »

nope, maybe do two weights, it would be class to see the best grapplers in ireland on the mat competing.....

The Irish, Munster and Dublin opens are there for any player who wants to compete.

The European, British, English opens etc. are there for any Irish player who wants to compete abroad.

Some of the senior belts in Ireland have left their competition days behind them. This in no way effect their status as BJJ players. They don't need to compete in an Irish superfight to prove themselves.

Sid_Justice

r_obric wrote: »

why not have a tournament to solve it?

open weight, all fighters purple and above that are either irish or living in ireland.......

sponsor it a grand or two and you might get some takers

David Jones

sponsor it a grand or two and you might get some takers

Or possibly 6 weeks of free physio!:D

NG-DOC

Sid_Justice wrote: »

sponsor it a grand or two and you might get some takers

i in no way believe that a tournament would solve the question at hand.

but, in the unlikely event that there is a grand or two up for grabs, count me in!

Finian123

give me 5-6 yrs to get my purple and ill have no problem competitinng for the title of best bjj player in ireland :L

Barry.Oglesby

Get a sponsor...

a 1k prize

Ireland's best grappler

Submission only

no time limits

elimination tournament

oh yeah

NG-DOC

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Get a sponsor...

a 1k prize

Ireland's best grappler

Submission only

no time limits

elimination tournament

oh yeah

this would be unbelievable.

gi or nogi?

open to literally anyone or only people of a certain grade?

Sid_Justice

no darraghs

Barry.Oglesby

We're allowed to have 1 Darragh then?

I reckon a nogi, open tournament with a limit of 16 people. €50 entrance fee that's €800 I'll raise the rest. I know a perfect venue with tiered seating for spectators.

I reckon 1k for the winner and €100 for the beaten finalist.

I'm deadly serious now. If I put it on who'd enter? Who'd spectate?

cowzerp

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

We're allowed to have 1 Darragh then?

I reckon a nogi, open tournament with a limit of 16 people. €50 entrance fee that's €800 I'll raise the rest. I know a perfect venue with tiered seating for spectators.

I reckon 1k for the winner and €100 for the beaten finalist.

I'm deadly serious now. If I put it on who'd enter? Who'd spectate?

I'd come to spectate at such an event, would love to see the top lads compete..

plus on 1 daragh been allowed, Sid justice is owned!!