It shouldnt bother me, but it does

th3 s1aught3r

I didnt have an interest in politics or politicians until recently when they started to give my money away to bailout the banks. Thats a failure on my part I admit
I honestly think the vast majority of people in the country are not interested in politics.
The problem with that is that they (politicians) are getting away with murder becasue of this general apathy , I think if people really cared they would be shouting louder than they are now
What do you think has to happen for the Irish people to say "enough" ??

El Weirdo

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

What do you think has to happen for the Irish people to say "enough" ??

Probably another AH thread or two on this very subject. That should do it.

mink_man

banks and the occasional funny or cruel death, will it ever change?

th3 s1aught3r

My father spent a night on a trolly in a corridor of a hospital A&E department the other night, no free beds
Not enough money in the HSE for new hospitals
30bn for banking bailout
explain ?

DHYNZY

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

My father spent a night on a trolly in a corridor of a hospital A&E department the other night, no free beds
Not enough money in the HSE for new hospitals
30bn for banking bailout
explain ?

its a sh*tcake. but basically banks fail, hospitals close their entirety.

OPENROAD

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

My father spent a night on a trolly in a corridor of a hospital A&E department the other night, no free beds
Not enough money in the HSE for new hospitals
30bn for banking bailout
explain ?

We don't support the banks = we have no economy

mink_man

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

My father spent a night on a trolly in a corridor of a hospital A&E department the other night, no free beds
Not enough money in the HSE for new hospitals
30bn for banking bailout
explain ?

some people don't have a clue do they! :mad:

ye want the economy to get moving, how is that gonna happen? It's gonna be the banks that are gonna make it grow again, by lending people money and them people spending money making business which in turn makes people employed which makes people buy their service which in turn makes the economy grow. no banks, no money.

It's like fellas on the news yesterday complaining that they want a job and it's the governments fault, yes they're idiots, but they can't make the jobs, people have to spend money.

MultiUmm

mink_man wrote: »

It's like fellas on the news yesterday complaining that they want a job and it's the governments fault, yes they're idiots, but they can't make the jobs, people have to spend money.

... But if people have no jobs, how do they spend money ???

mink_man

MultiUmm wrote: »

... But if people have no jobs, how do they spend money ???

this is exactly what people don't get. they lend form the bank and then spend the money, setting up a business, whatever it is they spend it on, which in turn gets the economy moving.

K-9

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

I didnt have an interest in politics or politicians until recently when they started to give my money away to bailout the banks. Thats a failure on my part I admit
I honestly think the vast majority of people in the country are not interested in politics.
The problem with that is that they (politicians) are getting away with murder becasue of this general apathy , I think if people really cared they would be shouting louder than they are now
What do you think has to happen for the Irish people to say "enough" ??

A bank to fail?

If they'd let Anglo fail 2 years ago, people would care, a bit like Iceland now.

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, but nobody wants to break the bad news.

galwayrush

mink_man wrote: »

this is exactly what people don't get. they lend form the bank and then spend the money, setting up a business, whatever it is they spend it on, which in turn gets the economy moving.

So, who exactly will the banks lend to, they use bail out money to buy our own Government Bonds. so where is the money left to lend, and who qualifies for a loan now days?

Rented Mule

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

I didnt have an interest in politics or politicians until recently when they started to give my money away to bailout the banks.

You'll vote next time hippie !!

mink_man

galwayrush wrote: »

So, who exactly will the banks lend to, they use bail out money to buy our own Government Bonds. so where is the money left to lend, and who qualifies for a loan now days?

many many people apply for loans...the money the government is pumping into the banks is to be lended....ye must think brian cowen is thick, he'd beat any of ye in a table quiz! :P

galwayrush

mink_man wrote: »

many many people apply for loans...the money the government is pumping into the banks is to be lended....ye must think brian cowen is thick, he'd beat any of ye in a table quiz! :P

Yes, Cowen isn't the brightest, going on his and his party's record on running the economy , as a result,i wouldn't expect him or any of his cronies to beat me in any table quiz. Many people apply for loans, but very few are getting them, and to pay for FF's ruining of our nation, very few will have any disposable income to service any borrowings.

SeaFields

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

What do you think has to happen for the Irish people to say "enough" ??

They need to get off their holes and vote in the next general election. And not vote for some fella that shook their hands a a funeral. or wished them a happy Christmas in the local. Get angry with them when they call to the door for a vote. Point at your children and ask them "what will voting for you do for them". Ask exactly what are the hoping to achieve in government. Ask to see there plan for these. Scrutinize. Analyse. Ask the about the bigger issues and forget about the fact that the boreen down the road is covered in potholes.

/too drunk right now to think of more stuff to say

johnmcdnl

most people don't understand the basics of how economics or the economy in general work - it just don't make any sense to us plebs why we have to give 30bn to the banks or else we're ****ed - this is what really annoys me more than anything else - if they'd just tell me why it is so necessary to prevent anglo from collapsing I might have some sympathy but there argument is that the economy needs them but I can't see how the economy needs anglo irish bank......

why can't some minister or someone who understand go on tv some night and explain it simply and clearly in simple talk basically for us all to understand why it's so important to save anglo.... none of the economy talk - just explain why the bank has to be saved and none of the spin ****e... just pure simple explanation would at least possibly give me reason to explain why FF are giving so much money to the banks and might give me some reason to have pity for the politicians....

high heels

I got a job in the UK...

I pay more taxes out of my pay packet but unlike Ireland I get free health care bins taken away every week cheap motor tax... Ireland have hidden taxes everywhere its like flying with ryanair!!

And the country is only 700billion in the red..

O ya the best thing the milkman delivers the milk in a glass bottle!!! its amazin!

SeaFields

johnmcdnl wrote: »

why can't some minister or someone who understand go on tv some night and explain it simply and clearly in simple talk basically for us all to understand why it's so important to save anglo....

Arrogance

southsiderosie

johnmcdnl wrote: »

most people don't understand the basics of how economics or the economy in general work - it just don't make any sense to us plebs why we have to give 30bn to the banks or else we're ****ed - this is what really annoys me more than anything else - if they'd just tell me why it is so necessary to prevent anglo from collapsing I might have some sympathy but there argument is that the economy needs them but I can't see how the economy needs anglo irish bank......

why can't some minister or someone who understand go on tv some night and explain it simply and clearly in simple talk basically for us all to understand why it's so important to save anglo.... none of the economy talk - just explain why the bank has to be saved and none of the spin ****e... just pure simple explanation would at least possibly give me reason to explain why FF are giving so much money to the banks and might give me some reason to have pity for the politicians....

Because from what I can tell, most of the ministers do not understand how banking or economics works either.

OPENROAD

johnmcdnl wrote: »

most people don't understand the basics of how economics or the economy in general work - it just don't make any sense to us plebs why we have to give 30bn to the banks or else we're ****ed - this is what really annoys me more than anything else - if they'd just tell me why it is so necessary to prevent anglo from collapsing I might have some sympathy but there argument is that the economy needs them but I can't see how the economy needs anglo irish bank......

why can't some minister or someone who understand go on tv some night and explain it simply and clearly in simple talk basically for us all to understand why it's so important to save anglo.... none of the economy talk - just explain why the bank has to be saved and none of the spin ****e... just pure simple explanation would at least possibly give me reason to explain why FF are giving so much money to the banks and might give me some reason to have pity for the politicians....

They have done, its not just Anglo they are pumping money into by the way.

If they let Anglo go, and they simply can't just let it go like that, it would have to be an orderly wind down which would have to be done over a number of years, it is still going to cost a shedload of money. I think the biggest mistake that has been made is that it has taken so long to actually find out the total cost of the bailout, which has seen our borrowing rate simply rise and rise.

There is no simple/cheap solution to this sadly

mink_man

banks have to be saved, just accept it. none of ye'r wining. yes its alot of money and all but it has to be done. no one was complaining during the boom that everyone had too good a time of it.

southsiderosie

mink_man wrote: »

banks have to be saved, just accept it. none of ye'r wining. yes its alot of money and all but it has to be done. no one was complaining during the boom that everyone had too good a time of it.

Banks do not inherently need to be saved. There are plenty of banks that have gone under historically, and yet they still exist today. Anglo was a builders bank that did not present a systemic threat to the rest of the economy.It would have been much better for the government's finances if they had let Anglo go under two years ago.

Frankly the 'just accept it' attitude is why Ireland is so ****ed today; your comment reeks of Bertie Ahern's arrogant "they can all commit suicide" speech.

douglashyde

I think it’s when people that know nothing about government and how economic systems work start to have an opinion that we have an even bigger problem.

I've seen socialists on Henry St protest at bailing out Anglo and that it was wrong and that we could have spent the money on hospitals when they dont understand how letting a bank go under would affect Irish Bonds and blah blah blah.

I've seen people think that the problem with our Health system is because of cut backs and not because of the massive inefficiencies
I’ve seen people throw around the lines "We should never have bailed out the banks" with no idea of the repercussions of not bailing them out and blah blah blah

I’ve seen our public sector defend their massive wage bill and say “it’s not our fault” and blah blah blah

I’ve heard people talk about the expensive account and wages of our ministers and then think they are qualified to understand why this country is going under and blah blah blah.

Certain people shouldn’t be allowed vote!

K-9

johnmcdnl wrote: »

most people don't understand the basics of how economics or the economy in general work - it just don't make any sense to us plebs why we have to give 30bn to the banks or else we're ****ed - this is what really annoys me more than anything else - if they'd just tell me why it is so necessary to prevent anglo from collapsing I might have some sympathy but there argument is that the economy needs them but I can't see how the economy needs anglo irish bank......

why can't some minister or someone who understand go on tv some night and explain it simply and clearly in simple talk basically for us all to understand why it's so important to save anglo.... none of the economy talk - just explain why the bank has to be saved and none of the spin ****e... just pure simple explanation would at least possibly give me reason to explain why FF are giving so much money to the banks and might give me some reason to have pity for the politicians....

Because Anglo owes a shed load of money to other Irish banks, including the Irish Central Bank.

Basically it is a fancy pyramid scheme, but, ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell anybody, especially the meerkats!

high heels wrote: »

I got a job in the UK...

I pay more taxes out of my pay packet but unlike Ireland I get free health care bins taken away every week cheap motor tax... Ireland have hidden taxes everywhere its like flying with ryanair!!

And the country is only 700billion in the red..

O ya the best thing the milkman delivers the milk in a glass bottle!!! its amazin!

That's what happens when you don't fall for the low tax, high services agenda that FF/FG/Labour all espoused in the last General Election. Somehow Ireland could keep cutting taxes and get better services.

Hell, everybody pays 0% taxes and we'll have the best Health Service in the world!

On a serious note, Social partnership was based on reducing income taxes and PRSI. In the UK, people pay high NIC but get a free NHS for that. We seemed to want low PRSI AND a free Health system.

Social Partnership also meant reduced Income Taxes. Government agreed to this because it meant more spending money. More spending money meant more spending on LCD TV's, 4*4's and iPhones meaning more VAT. Increased credit meant more spending on Credit Cards and more importantly houses, meaning increased Stamp Duties.

In short, we wanted to pay less tax but wanted perfect Public Services at the same time. That was all grand as long as people spent, spent, spent. Now, we don't have the money to spend and are doubly fecked!

th3 s1aught3r

mink_man wrote: »

banks have to be saved, just accept it. none of ye'r wining.

You really dont have a clue do you ?
Banks do not HAVE TO BE SAVED. We, or should I say the government, choose to save them, big difference

OPENROAD

K-9 wrote: »

Because Anglo owes a shed load of money to other Irish banks, including the Irish Central Bank.

Basically it is a fancy pyramid scheme, but, ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell anybody, especially the meerkats!



That's what happens when you don't fall for the low tax, high services agenda that FF/FG/Labour all espoused in the last General Election. Somehow Ireland could keep cutting taxes and get better services.

Hell, everybody pays 0% taxes and we'll have the best Health Service in the world!

On a serious note, Social partnership was based on reducing income taxes and PRSI. In the UK, people pay high NIC but get a free NHS for that. We seemed to want low PRSI AND a free Health system.

Social Partnership also meant reduced Income Taxes. Government agreed to this because it meant more spending money. More spending money meant more spending on LCD TV's, 4*4's and iPhones meaning more VAT. Increased credit meant more spending on Credit Cards and more importantly houses, meaning increased Stamp Duties.

In short, we wanted to pay less tax but wanted perfect Public Services at the same time. That was all grand as long as people spent, spent, spent. Now, we don't have the money to spend and are doubly fecked!

All very well saying this, but maybe when we had a truckload of money coming in, and boy did we have a surplus of funds, it should have been spent more prudently and efficiently.

douglashyde

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

You really dont have a clue do you ?
Banks do not HAVE TO BE SAVED. We, or should I say the government, choose to save them, big difference

How do you think the markets would react to a bank going under? Where do you think Ireland borrows all of its money? and how do you think the interest rates are are set for those borrowings?

OPENROAD

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

You really dont have a clue do you ?
Banks do not HAVE TO BE SAVED. We, or should I say the government, choose to save them, big difference

So we let the banks fail what happens next?? We let the Bondholders fail, the very people that are lending to us at the moment and keeping the country afloat, so what do we do?

johnmcdnl

douglashyde wrote: »

How do you think the markets would react to a bank going under? Where do you think Ireland borrows all of its money? and how do you think the interest rates are are set for those borrowings?

if a privately owned bank fails why should that make a difference to the bond markets - what's the difference between a privately owned bank failing and a 99p corner shop going out of business - bigger sums of money involved i know but surely the principal should be somewhat the same...

so basically if you open a bank because of the rules of economics you can't fail basically because if you fail the whole country is ****ed so the government will always have to save you....

it's not the governments fault directly that the banks screwed up and got into the ****e there in today - indirectly with bad policies and crap regulation yes it was there fault but surely they can't be held responsible if the managers of a privately owned company make an absolute cock up - there not the ones running the show

why would a bank failing make such a difference to the bond market - yes i know it probably would but it shouldn't is the point

OPENROAD

johnmcdnl wrote: »

why would a bank failing make such a difference to the bond market - yes i know it probably would but it shouldn't is the point

But it does and that is the point, Yes a private bank fails, but in doing so the very people who are currently lending to us lose out as a result, the banking system, the very heart of the economy is unstable, why would you then lend to the Irish govt??. Well that is my understanding of it

southsiderosie

OPENROAD wrote: »

But it does and that is the point, Yes a private bank fails, but in doing so the very people who are currently lending to us lose out as a result, the banking system, the very heart of the economy is unstable, why would you then lend to the Irish govt??. Well that is my understanding of it

Anglo did not lend to the general public; it was a builders bank. THe reluctance to lend to the IRish government now (as exhibited by high interest rates) is in no small part because the government assumed the private debt and liabilities of Anglo - not to save regular depositors and keep credit flowing through healthy industries, but to prop up developers and friends in an industry which was undergoing a much needed, albeit painful adjustment anyway.

I don't think that anyone is saying (on this thread anyway) that the government should have let all of the banks fail. But clearly they could have cut some of the dead wood before committing significant public resources, and they didn't.

bodice ripper

dammit, I came in here looking for a bit of Faith No More. drat

OPENROAD

southsiderosie wrote: »

Anglo did not lend to the general public; it was a builders bank. THe reluctance to lend to the IRish government now (as exhibited by high interest rates) is in no small part because the government assumed the private debt and liabilities of Anglo - not to save regular depositors and keep credit flowing through healthy industries, but to prop up developers and friends in an industry which was undergoing a much needed, albeit painful adjustment anyway.

I don't think that anyone is saying (on this thread anyway) that the government should have let all of the banks fail. But clearly they could have cut some of the dead wood before committing significant public resources, and they didn't.

From what I have read German, French and British assets and pension funds lose out as a result for starters.The people who lent to Anglo would lose out.Now I know you could say who cares? But the impact that this might have on our ability to borrow. I do accept that this alone MAY not have an impact. Secondly, there is the possible ripple effect and the argument is that this unknown.

As I said though even if they let it fail, there is a significant cost

southsiderosie

OPENROAD wrote: »

From what I have read German, French and British assets and pension funds lose out as a result for starters.Now I know you could say who cares? But the impact that this might have on our ability to borrow. Secondly, there is the possible ripple effect and the argument is that this unknown.

As I said though even if they let it fail, there is a significant cost

When investors buy assets they are taking a calculated risk. If they win, they make money. If they lose, they don't. For those banks that took a risk in Ireland, well, this time they lost. Tough ****; that's how capitalism is supposed to work.

Oh, BTW, there are currently plenty of banks and institutional investors who are making a killing from betting on Ireland's economy tanking. If things shoudl turn around, should the government bail them out too? :rolleyes:

OPENROAD

southsiderosie wrote: »

When investors buy assets they are taking a calculated risk. If they win, they make money. If they lose, they don't. For those banks that took a risk in Ireland, well, this time they lost. Tough ****; that's how capitalism is supposed to work.

Oh, BTW, there are currently plenty of banks and institutional investors who are making a killing from betting on Ireland's economy tanking. If things shoudl turn around, should the government bail them out too? :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong I do see your point, it may well be the case that if we let the Bondholders lose out it may have no impact on us as possibly there position on Anglo was quite small relative to the there overall position. As I said I fully see where you are coming from, but really we are a small country and so are not really holding the cards.

Sticky_Fingers

mink_man wrote: »

many many people apply for loans...the money the government is pumping into the banks is to be lended....ye must think brian cowen is thick, he'd beat any of ye in a table quiz! :P

More than likely you'll find our glorious leader slumped comatose over a table in the corner of the pub.

Cavehill Red

OPENROAD wrote: »

We don't support the banks = we have no economy

Best summation yet of the horseturd we've been fed.
You may not have noticed, but we already effectively don't have an economy, since there are half a million on the dole, a hundred thousands beggared in negative equity, and we're borrowing just to pay the public sector wage bill each month.
Adding a 50 billion banking bailout to pay the losing bets of the banksters, Fianna Fail funders and shady bondholders like Roman Abramovich is not a solution to any of the above.
Forgive me for stating what should be BLINDLY FVCKING OBVIOUS, but a further 50 billion debt on top of the current situation is endgame for this nation.
We have to default on that debt or we'll default on our sovereign debt. At this point, I'd be inclined to do both, actually.

flynnlives

If ye want to know why we are in the **** read this.
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/10/economics-21010-brian-luceys-comment-on.html

You would do well to follow Constantin Gurdgeiv and Brian Lucey on twitter as well.
The major reason we are in the **** is not the banks, its our incompetent government that has gotten us to this stage.

YouTalkinToMe

hey i went to an atm it said insuffient funds i said is that me or the bank....

Bonito

high heels wrote: »

I got a job in the UK...

I pay more taxes out of my pay packet but unlike Ireland I get free health care bins taken away every week cheap motor tax... Ireland have hidden taxes everywhere its like flying with ryanair!!

We're far from Ryanair. I think they're one of the only airlines who are making profits. Massive ones at that. I'd gladly hand the country over to O'Leary for a year or two.

O ya the best thing the milkman delivers the milk in a glass bottle!!! its amazin!

Did you go to the UK in a DeLorean?

YouTalkinToMe wrote: »

hey i went to an atm it said insuffient funds i said is that me or the bank....

I went to an ATM. It gave me money and my card.


P.s. We have your money. The ransom is the equivalent of the money we have. Your move.

MagicMarker

They should stop teaching Irish in Schools and make Political Science & Economics mandatory.

whadabouchasir

MagicMarker wrote: »

They should stop teaching Irish in Schools and make Political Science & Economics mandatory.

How many economists do we need?

Bonito

whadabouchasir wrote: »

How many economists do we need?

About 3 fiddy.

MagicMarker

whadabouchasir wrote: »

How many economists do we need?

How many Irish speakers do we need?

Bonito

MagicMarker wrote: »

How many Irish speakers do we need?

Irish speaking economists. Boom.

orourkeda

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

I didnt have an interest in politics or politicians until recently when they started to give my money away to bailout the banks. Thats a failure on my part I admit
I honestly think the vast majority of people in the country are not interested in politics.
The problem with that is that they (politicians) are getting away with murder becasue of this general apathy , I think if people really cared they would be shouting louder than they are now
What do you think has to happen for the Irish people to say "enough" ??

I think Irish people have been metaphorically bum raped and skull f*cked by the whole scenario.

I think if they were physically bum raped and skull f*Cked they still wouldnt do anything to change it.

My apathy in the irish people has only been intensified by this whole banker bailout thing and nothing i've seen has forced me to change my opinion. The simple fact that the FF party still command about a quarter of the vote in a recent opinion poll sickens me.

Mr Benevolent

I'm preparing an article on this, but it boils down to a few words:

Ireland needs a Swiss-style pure democracy.

The Guardian's point about Ireland being a one-party system is eerily accurate.

Oh yeah, and this

we believe unemployment has peaked at 8.3%," he said.

Haheehohohoha. And Iceland calls themselves in trouble.

Several countries have massive strikes. We park a truck outside the Dail. What kind of gutless moronic sheep are we? And yes, I'm including myself in that.

Herb Powell

OPENROAD wrote: »

We don't support the banks = we have no economy

I agree but
underfunded hospitals=even ****tier health system

douglashyde wrote: »

I think it’s when people that know nothing about government and how economic systems work start to have an opinion that we have an even bigger problem.

I've seen socialists on Henry St protest at bailing out Anglo and that it was wrong and that we could have spent the money on hospitals when they dont understand how letting a bank go under would affect Irish Bonds and blah blah blah.

I've seen people think that the problem with our Health system is because of cut backs and not because of the massive inefficiencies
I’ve seen people throw around the lines "We should never have bailed out the banks" with no idea of the repercussions of not bailing them out and blah blah blah

I’ve seen our public sector defend their massive wage bill and say “it’s not our fault” and blah blah blah

I’ve heard people talk about the expensive account and wages of our ministers and then think they are qualified to understand why this country is going under and blah blah blah.

Certain people shouldn’t be allowed vote!

you have to say their wages and expenses are ****ing ridiculous, especially when they are telling people to take cuts

Amhran Nua

mink_man wrote: »

ye want the economy to get moving, how is that gonna happen? It's gonna be the banks that are gonna make it grow again, by lending people money and them people spending money making business which in turn makes people employed which makes people buy their service which in turn makes the economy grow. no banks, no money.

Thats the theory. The reality over the last ten years was that the banks lent mostly to property developers and mortgagees, which is economically eating your own tail.

We need to protect the deposits of Irish citizens and businesses, balance the books on spending (thats reducing it to 2004 levels, not a massive leap), and look at alternate means to encourage real entrepreneurship.

Confab wrote: »

Ireland needs a Swiss-style pure democracy.

At the local level maybe, not at the national level. Some cantons in Switzerland didn't even give women the vote until the 1990s. California is another example of the disaster that can come from direct democracy, you can hit google for the ongoing train crash that represents.

At the local level you expect and encourage people to look after the interests of their local area, so direct democracy isn't a bad fit. Trying to extend that enlightened self interest to national decisions doesn't work.

th3 s1aught3r

orourkeda wrote: »

. The simple fact that the FF party still command about a quarter of the vote in a recent opinion poll sickens me.

In a week of crazy stats, this is probably the most worrying

SkepticOne

OPENROAD wrote: »

So we let the banks fail what happens next?? We let the Bondholders fail, the very people that are lending to us at the moment and keeping the country afloat, so what do we do?

Bailing out Anglo has had the opposite effect, unfortunately. Lenders don't want to lend to a government that can't face up to reality.

I think this is why people are starting to get angry now. Initially they trusted the governments actions and believed they would result in greater lending and an economic recovery, but none of that has happened and people are wondering where it is going to end.