Liverpool v Blackpool match thread

niallo27

gleep wrote: »

OK let me pick this one apart for you.
I said the squad he left behind is mid-table. The squad he had previously obviously wasn't. But when you loose players and don't refresh the squad with the right players, it declines. This is why we are where we are.
El Zhar was commonly thrown on in the last 10 minutes when we needed a goal. He was never good enough to change a game like that. And what about Babel & Ngog? Mid table players I'd say.
I didn't say Johnson wasn't good, my point is he is never worth £17m. Not if you got 4 of him! It was top class striker money wasted on a decent(your words) right back.
Aah, the year we finished second. Torres and Gerrard only played so many games, if Rafa had played them when they were fit, instead of percevering with the flawed rotation, we would have won the league no sweat. Instead he put mid table players into a team looking to win the league.
And by the way, we are piss-poor to watch, have been since last season. Some people still have their heads up their arse about Rafa. He had a very good squad, and made huge transfer errors, now we are left with a below par squad.

Listen your entitled to your opinion, answer me this so,what has changed so much within the squad from last year, why were we a top 4 squad last year and this year we are a mid table one.

niallo27

Kess73 wrote: »

Yeah that's why I seperated the league games they played in from the cup games.

So 31 games in the league for Gerrard and 24 league games from Torres. Check their minutes played as well as games played and you will soon see that not many of their league game totals, especially in Gerrard's case, were made up of little five minute run outs.



It does not take away from the fact that the title challenge season was not based on those two players though.


Alonso was the best player at the club by some distance that season, showing exactly why he was the best CM that we have had in years, and also showing up how there was nobopdy at the club since he left that could come close to him in CM.

Masch, Pepe, Kuyt, and a number of others were excellent for most of the season, and Rafa was on form tactically for the majority of that season.

The title challenge was because of the team and manager as a unit, and not because of Torres and Gerrard. Anyone that thinks that the title challenge season was because Rafa "pegged" everything on Gerrard and Torres is just wrong. I will agree with you on that.

Its just pisses me off that rafa gets no credit for that season, all we hear is how he ****ed away the title, instead of how we got out best point total in 20 years, remember them days, team were terrified coming to anfield, im sure we only lost 1 league game in 2 years or so at anfield

gleep

niallo27 wrote: »

Listen your entitled to your opinion, answer me this so,what has changed so much within the squad from last year, why were we a top 4 squad last year and this year we are a mid table one.

No, we were a 7th place squad last year. If you're comparing this squad to the 08/09 squad then here are the differences.

Xabi Alonso. Our best player in 08/09 season, best player in the leage actually. Rafa's treatment of him during the G.Barry debacle lead to him leaving.
Aquilani - brought in to replace the above. Had a career blighted by injuries when we paid £20m won him - WHEN HE HAD A BROKEN LEG. Who did rafa think was going to fill in Xabi's role when Aquilani was recovering, oh yeah, Lucas:rolleyes:
Torres - Played plenty of games that season,on form. When he began picking up regular injuries and loosing form, the gaping hole in the squad is revealed.
Rafa's investment in players like Lucas, Deggen, Dossena, Babel, Ngog, El Zhar, Aquillani etc came back to haunt him. These guys were simply not good enough to step into the squad and do a job.

gleep

niallo27 wrote: »

Its just pisses me off that rafa gets no credit for that season, all we hear is how he ****ed away the title, instead of how we got out best point total in 20 years, remember them days, team were terrified coming to anfield, im sure we only lost 1 league game in 2 years or so at anfield

Rafa deserves credit for that season, to a point. You have to agree though that after the FACTS thing at Fergie, he lost it.
He also has to accept blame for resting Torres & Gerrard in the many games we drew that year.
And don't forget, Mun Utd were not at their best that year, they had a very slow start and dropped a lot of points. Chelsea were in dissary with Phil Scolari. If we'd played our best team at all times, we'd have won the league.

niallo27

gleep wrote: »

No, we were a 7th place squad last year. If you're comparing this squad to the 08/09 squad then here are the differences.

Xabi Alonso. Our best player in 08/09 season, best player in the leage actually. Rafa's treatment of him during the G.Barry debacle lead to him leaving.
Aquilani - brought in to replace the above. Had a career blighted by injuries when we paid £20m won him - WHEN HE HAD A BROKEN LEG. Who did rafa think was going to fill in Xabi's role when Aquilani was recovering, oh yeah, Lucas:rolleyes:
Torres - Played plenty of games that season,on form. When he began picking up regular injuries and loosing form, the gaping hole in the squad is revealed.
Rafa's investment in players like Lucas, Deggen, Dossena, Babel, Ngog, El Zhar, Aquillani etc came back to haunt him. These guys were simply not good enough to step into the squad and do a job.

Well if they were a 7th placed squad last year then why was there so much pressure on rafa do get into the top 4, why was he sacked for coming 7th, i though he was sacked because 7th was not good enough.

The alonso thing has being done to death so ill leave that, the other players you mention, i think lucas is a fine squad player, deggen was free, dossena ill give you that one, babel was very highly rated, he could be a great player if he coped the **** on, Ngog cost 1 and half million FFS, did he even buy el zhar, and aqua well he started and played well for juve last night

The Muppet

niallo27 wrote: »

Well isnt Rafa a ****en genius for getting a mid table squad into the cl 5 years out of 6, how many games did el zhar play, thats a poor example, johnson looked decent after a shakey start last year, the year we got 2nd torres only played 18 games and gerrard was in the 20s so he hardly pegged everything on them two.

That squad was supposes to be good enough to challenge last year and at least get CL qualification, rafa was sacked because he didnt get it, but now we hear that the squad is ****e, its a mid table squad, I love the opposition fans are so bitter towards Rafa, they ****en hated him and i ****en loved it

It wasn't a mid table team when he arrived, if it is now he is the man responsible for making it so, No ?

niallo27

gleep wrote: »

Rafa deserves credit for that season, to a point. You have to agree though that after the FACTS thing at Fergie, he lost it.
He also has to accept blame for resting Torres & Gerrard in the many games we drew that year.
And don't forget, Mun Utd were not at their best that year, they had a very slow start and dropped a lot of points. Chelsea were in dissary with Phil Scolari. If we'd played our best team at all times, we'd have won the league.

Utd had their highest or second highest point total that year it must be added, i would have though the games that were drawn before the facts speech were just as damaging, can you tell me which games he rested either torres or gerrard for that we didnt win that year, i cant remember any

Mental Mickey

gleep wrote: »

Rafa deserves credit for that season, to a point. You have to agree though that after the FACTS thing at Fergie, he lost it.
He also has to accept blame for resting Torres & Gerrard in the many games we drew that year.
And don't forget, Mun Utd were not at their best that year, they had a very slow start and dropped a lot of points. Chelsea were in dissary with Phil Scolari. If we'd played our best team at all times, we'd have won the league.

He did. Totally. I got ridiculed endlessly for pointing out the exact same thing.

niallo27

The Muppet wrote: »

It wasn't a mid table team when he arrived, if it is now he is the man responsible for making it so, No ?

When does Roy come into it so

niallo27

Mental Mickey wrote: »

He did. Totally. I got ridiculed endlessly for saying the same thing.

We also beat utd 4-1, madrid 5-0 after the facts speech and 34 out of 36 pts to finish the season, bit harsh to say he lost it

gleep

Niallo, when I say "players he invested in" I'm not just talking about money. He invested trust in them, he trusted his judgement of them, that they were good enough to win games.
And some of the matches I think we dropped points in when Torres and/or Gerrard were rested - - Hull, Middlesboro, Stoke, Blackburn. Could be wrong here, but there were plenty.

Mr Alan

gleep wrote: »

And some of the matches I think we dropped points in when Torres and/or Gerrard were rested - - Hull, Middlesboro, Stoke, Blackburn. Could be wrong here, but there were plenty.

Pretty sure you're wrong.

niallo27

gleep wrote: »

Niallo, when I say "players he invested in" I'm not just talking about money. He invested trust in them, he trusted his judgement of them, that they were good enough to win games.
And some of the matches I think we dropped points in when Torres and/or Gerrard were rested - - Hull, Middlesboro, Stoke, Blackburn. Could be wrong here, but there were plenty.

Not being smart but i think you'll find you are wrong with them teams, yes but when you want to win the league and you have to buy players on free transfers or 5 or 6 million, you are gonna make mistakes

SlickRic

event wrote: »

Were ye all up in arms when Rafa moved Kuyt out to RW. he was an out and out striker when he joined ye.

how did that work out in the end?

it worked out great.

but Mereiles, probably our potentially best CM, playing as a RW?

it literally makes no sense.

i've no problem with some of the others playing slightly out of position, but Mereiles as a RW just seems like a numpty-ish thing to do when we're desperate for a bit of composure in the middle.

in terms of the whole debate, again, over whether any of this is Rafa's fault...

of course it is. it'd be foolish and naive to believe that he had nothing to do with what is happening now. but the % of blame that lays at his feet is significantly lower than a few others IMO.

he thought he would get bankrolled, he didn't get what he was promised. ok, so he was given a certain amount, and had to sell to buy, and tinker with the squad a bit over the last 3 years. he failed at that by and large. when he had to deal a bit, and work on less of a budget, he didn't do as well as we maybe should've expected.

but this new budget was thrust upon him, through the whole Barry saga. and that is the point at which, even though that produced Alonso's best season, and we came a strong 2nd in the league, we started to decline. Rafa lost Alonso, he prioritised big money on a RB which has kind of gone wrong, and an injured Aquilani, and boom, things went bad.

in terms of Rafa...those are the things I will happily hold him to account for -

buying an injured Aquilani; and
overpaying for Glen Johnson, when that money could've probably been better spent.

up until that point, Rafa had been doing a perfectly fine, and in hindsight, a brilliant job.

remember this is also a man who wanted to buy the likes of Jovetic, and Vidic before Ferguson ever went in for him, but was told that he couldn't have the money.

last year, the reality of everything unravelled, and Rafa, even though he'd created some of the mess, was still, i believe one of the things holding a lot of it together, despite what many will claim about him 'losing dressing rooms' and sh*t like that.

it can all be summed up like this IMO;

Rafa did well, was promised stadiums and a budget, they were not given to him, and he then didn't perform to quite the standard he needed to on a reduced net budget to keep us where we were. But i believe, wholeheartedly, that he'd be doing an awful lot better than what we're seeing now.

Roy has not inherited a bad bunch of players though. they didn't just become sh*t. He is not even close to getting even 50% out of them, and it has to be asked why? he's as negative in his tactics as the day is long. he is just plain out of his depth. with all due respect to him, he is no more than a journeyman, plain and simple. he should have never been the replacement. and doing it to the tune of £10m (taking into account what it cost to get rid of Rafa), was plain retarded.

sorry, that's all a bit of a mess, but i think that illustrates that nothing in this whole God-damned saga is black and white. Rafa made mistakes, as he's admitted. Roy's making mistakes. And our owners peddled lies to Rafa and our fans.

whose to blame? it's for you to decide. i know who the majority of it goes to though...

The Muppet

niallo27 wrote: »

When does Roy come into it so

When he has spent £250 million on players and won nothing for 4 seasons.

niallo27

The Muppet wrote: »

When he has spent £250 million on players and won nothing for 4 seasons.

Who manages the side until then, is roy allowed to come mid table or below for the 4 years

PiE

SlickRic wrote: »

overpaying for Glen Johnson, when that money could've probably been better spent.

Just on this point, a point a lot of people choose to ignore - we effectively paid £10m for Johnson, with the other £7m coming from what Portsmouth owed us for Crouch.

We probably would never have got that £7m with the state that the club was in.

£10m at the time (just after being included in the PL team of the season) for Johnson wasn't bad business - though on current form even that seems too much.

The Muppet

niallo27 wrote: »

Who manages the side until then, is roy allowed to come mid table or below for the 4 years

I'd give the guy a chance TBH if I were a liverpool supporter, Maybe he's not up to the job I don't know for sure but to date he is working under extremly difficult circumstance with all the problems Rafa had plus a large section of the fanbase against him.


Not getting a CL place will not be good enough IMO but I also believe that no manager will get that squad to 4th or better. Rafa couldn't do it with a better squad last season and lets be honest Tottenham and Villa and City did their best to make it possible.

everdead.ie

PiE wrote: »

Just on this point, a point a lot of people choose to ignore - we effectively paid £10m for Johnson, with the other £7m coming from what Portsmouth owed us for Crouch.

We probably would never have got that £7m with the state that the club was in.

£10m at the time (just after being included in the PL team of the season) for Johnson wasn't bad business - though on current form even that seems too much.

Surely then you should have only paid 3 million for him to make the 10m anyway you look at it Liverpool paid 17 million

The Muppet

everdead.ie wrote: »

Surely then you should have only paid 3 million for him to make the 10m anyway you look at it Liverpool paid 17 million

Not to mention the astronomical wages he is reported to be earning. He was a major waste of money.

Liam O

SlickRic wrote: »

it worked out great.

but Mereiles, probably our potentially best CM, playing as a RW?

it literally makes no sense.

i've no problem with some of the others playing slightly out of position, but Mereiles as a RW just seems like a numpty-ish thing to do when we're desperate for a bit of composure in the middle.

I think the problem is that Gerrard may have too much of a sway with Roy and he's afraid to play him what Gerrard would consider 'out of position' because whatever way you look at it Gerrard is the leader of that team and I don't think himself and Meireles would work as a CM pairing at all.

Le King

The Liverpool team didn't become shíte overnight. They still have the majority of players from the team that finished 2nd, but they lost their best player that year Xavi Alonso and then they lost Mascherano. That's going to be a huge change for any team to cope with.

The whole squad just looks terrible because of the rubbish, negative tactics that Hodgson is employing, players under performing and Fernando Torres hitting blanks.

A few injuries last year was no excuse for Liverpool's finish, fact is Rafa didn't have a replacement striker for Torres. Gerrard didn't perform for large parts of the season. The new manager coming in was always going to come in and try and put his stamp on the team, yet, I had to laugh when Roy bought Poulson. He hasn't played well for years and continues to play badly in the Premier League, yet Roy is still keeping faith in him.

Rafa buying an injured player was a mistake, but at least Alberto Aquilani played very well the season before Liverpool bought him.

Liverpool, I'd say have 3 excellent players, two of which have performed sporadically over the past year and a bit. That's not enough for where Liverpool want to be.

But the worst part about it all is that this isn't the worst problem for LFC. The 15th of October is, all thanks to H+G.


Is it time for Hodgson to go? Yes. Are Liverpool done? I'm not sure yet. The 15 th of October will be massive for LFC. But who will effectively replace the manager while Hicks is trying to sell the club for a profit?

We'll have to wait and see.

SlickRic

Liam O wrote: »

I think the problem is that Gerrard may have too much of a sway with Roy and he's afraid to play him what Gerrard would consider 'out of position' because whatever way you look at it Gerrard is the leader of that team and I don't think himself and Meireles would work as a CM pairing at all.

i actually agree.

Rafa had the balls to tell Gerrard that he's not the centre of the team.

i don't foresee Hodgson having the same size set.

he, like the rest of England, has bought into the idea that he's this world class CM, when the reality is he hasn't been close to that since his early days.

Le King

SlickRic wrote: »

i actually agree.

Rafa had the balls to tell Gerrard that he's not the centre of the team.

i don't foresee Hodgson having the same size set.

he, like the rest of England, has bought into the idea that he's this world class CM, when the reality is he hasn't been close to that since his early days.

Antoher difference between the two is do you actually see Hodgson building a team that will actually push for the title?

Rafa made a lot of fantastic signings. I just can't see Hodgson bringing the same success to Liverpool as Rafa did.

Dont be at yourself

Interesting analysis from Guardian chalkboards on Roy's tactical masterclass:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/oct/04/premier-league-chalkboard-analysis

SlickRic

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Interesting analysis from Guardian chalkboards on Roy's tactical masterclass:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/oct/04/premier-league-chalkboard-analysis

this all makes the decision to sell Insua even more galling.

everdead.ie

SlickRic wrote: »

this all makes the decision to sell Insua even more galling.

I'm guessing he had to be sold to get in konceski(sorry my spelling is appaling)

Mental Mickey

Le King wrote: »

Antoher difference between the two is do you actually see Hodgson building a team that will actually push for the title?

Rafa made a lot of fantastic signings. I just can't see Hodgson bringing the same success to Liverpool as Rafa did.

He also made a hell of a lot of s***e signings too.

JP Liz V1

Well done Blackpool shock win :eek:

Kess73

SlickRic wrote: »

this all makes the decision to sell Insua even more galling.

No it makes the fact that Insua was loaned out for a year when he had only 12 months left on his contract all the more galling.

So come next summer Insua becomes a free agent and LFC get jack for him..

niallo27

Mental Mickey wrote: »

He also made a hell of a lot of s***e signings too.

Did you catch rafa in bed with your missus or something, you hate the man do ya

Mr Alan

SlickRic wrote: »

this all makes the decision to sell Insua even more galling.

We haven't sold Insua.

We've loaned him out until the end of his contract.

*oops Kess beat me to it, but its worth highlighting again how retarded a move that was.

Mental Mickey

niallo27 wrote: »

Did you catch rafa in bed with your missus or something, you hate the man do ya

No I don't. And the first part of your remark was uncalled for.

K-9

gleep wrote: »

No, we were a 7th place squad last year. If you're comparing this squad to the 08/09 squad then here are the differences.

Xabi Alonso. Our best player in 08/09 season, best player in the leage actually. Rafa's treatment of him during the G.Barry debacle lead to him leaving.
Aquilani - brought in to replace the above. Had a career blighted by injuries when we paid £20m won him - WHEN HE HAD A BROKEN LEG. Who did rafa think was going to fill in Xabi's role when Aquilani was recovering, oh yeah, Lucas:rolleyes:
Torres - Played plenty of games that season,on form. When he began picking up regular injuries and loosing form, the gaping hole in the squad is revealed.
Rafa's investment in players like Lucas, Deggen, Dossena, Babel, Ngog, El Zhar, Aquillani etc came back to haunt him. These guys were simply not good enough to step into the squad and do a job.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Slickric gives a more balanced view of the situation.
With hindsight the decision to get rid of Alonso was a bad move, at that time he had 2 poor seasons behind him, plus Rafa was never given the money for Barry anyway. He wasn't in control of transfers then and it appears he was misled on the funds available.

On Acquilani and Johnson he definitely was misled. The full money from Alonso wasn't made available to him.

The signings by Roy hardly inspire confidence either!

Mental Mickey

K-9 wrote: »

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Slickric gives a more balanced view of the situation.
With hindsight the decision to get rid of Alonso was a bad move, at that time he had 2 poor seasons behind him, plus Rafa was never given the money for Barry anyway. He wasn't in control of transfers then and it appears he was misled on the funds available.

On Acquilani and Johnson he definitely was misled. The full money from Alonso wasn't made available to him.

The signings by Roy hardly inspire confidence either!

Miereles is ok, Poulsen is rubbish. Too old.

K-9

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Miereles is ok, Poulsen is rubbish. Too old.

Maybe he might start playing him in CM, not on the wing or, as he ended up, f*cking LB!