Are Hodgson and Liverpool done?

Xavi6

Xavi6 wrote: »

I've watched pretty much every Pool game this year with a lot of curiosity more so than anything else and it's the backline that baffles me the most.

Roy hasn't settled on his best four. He's had injuries to deal with and a few comings and goings but there's still been too many changes.

The only constant is Johnson and, ropey and all as he is at times, he needs to be in the side.

At centre half both Carragher and Kyrgiakos are hopeless. Actually, worse than hopeless. Too slow and consequently go to ground too easy and too often (saw it today with Kyrgiakos and Varney). Skrtel looks like he should be solid but isn't, though he should be playing alongside Agger in the middle. Agger is the best defender at the club imo. Konchesky is a solid if unspectacular signing and will do a job at left back.

Carragher needs to be cut asap for me.

Johnson----Skrtel----Agger----Konchesky

Get a decent backline and you're halfway there.

Our fullbacks are more of a problem than Carra.

Johnson is hopeless. We have no fit LB atm

Mr.Nice Guy

BastardPrince wrote: »

great manager brings a club to 2nd, highest ever points finish for that club. The next season they come 7th and the manager is sacked, i dont remember you bounding into the liverpool thread to defend rafa and say lets look at the club and maybe he is keeping our heads above water...

The great manager who has not won a trophy since 2006 was it? I would say that fact, and going from 2nd to 7th, isn't much to write home about.

I was never a great fan of Benitez like others were, though I did feel Liverpool should keep him if it meant stability for the club, but Hodgson is here now and he should be given time.

NickDrake

nullzero wrote: »

I am a United fan, and it makes me worry about what might happen to my own club down the line. I'd prefer to have Liverpool in the Premier League than see them go down and watch similar things happen to United, which is very possible:(

Ah for god sake , will you get away or that Manu players are of a much better quality than Liverpool and we have a far superior squad. The League Cup showed this.

kilburn

YES

Chardee MacDennis

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The great manager who has not won a trophy since 2006 was it? I would say that fact, and going from 2nd to 7th, isn't much to write home about.

I was never a great fan of Benitez like others were, though I did feel Liverpool should keep him if it meant stability for the club, but Hodgson is here now and he should be given time.

so one rule for hodgson and another for rafa, typical...

Xavi6

rarnes1 wrote: »

Our fullbacks are more of a problem than Carra.

Johnson is hopeless. We have no fit LB atm

But who do you put at full back between now and January? Carra at right back?

I know there were no left backs available for today but prior to that there still has been no settled backline.

It's killing you.

everdead.ie

NickDrake wrote: »

One rule for the mods on here lads. I bet if one of us started the thread it would be locked and accused of trolling.

Speaking of mods where is the unthank button?

This thread is perfectly valid a club of Liverpools stature should not be struggling so badly imo

Mr.Nice Guy

BastardPrince wrote: »

so one rule for hodgson and another for rafa, typical...

Typical of what? Benitez had years and Hodgson has been there 5 minutes. Are you going to pine for Rafa for the duration of Hodgson's tenure or let the chap get on with it?

BTW, similar criticisms were made about Ferguson when he took over at United, who had plenty of problems on and off the field, and he turned it round.

nullzero

NickDrake wrote: »

Ah for god sake , will you get away or that Manu players are of a much better quality than Liverpool and we have a far superior squad. The League Cup showed this.

Take Scholes, Giggs, VDS and Fergie out of the equation in a year or two and fail to replace them and we're not going to be doing much better than Liverpool are right now.
We couldn't even string two passes together against a spirited but ultimately limited Sunderland side yesterday, not a good omen.

nullzero

BastardPrince wrote: »

so one rule for hodgson and another for rafa, typical...

Hang on, what has Rafa got to do with this anyway?
I'm sure there's an Inter thread somewhere for that discussion.

Dub13

NickDrake wrote: »

One rule for the mods on here lads. I bet if one of us started the thread it would be locked and accused of trolling.

Did you not see my post.

flahavaj

Xavi6 wrote: »

But who do you put at full back between now and January? Carra at right back?

I know there were no left backs available for today but prior to that there still has been no settled backline.

It's killing you.

More than any personnel issue the thing thats killing Liverpool at the moment is their entire approach to the game - sitting off teams, letting them play and not pressing them hard enough on any part of the pitch. If you do that every game, like Liverpool have anytime I've seem them this, it doesn't matter if you have the great AC Milan backline as your defence - you're going to struggle against teams that can play a bit of ball, even the mediocre ones.

NickDrake

Dub13 wrote: »

Did you not see my post.

Saw it after I posted. Apologies

Dub13

nullzero wrote: »

Take Scholes, Giggs, VDS and Fergie out of the equation in a year or two and fail to replace them and we're not going to be doing much better than Liverpool are right now.
We couldn't even string two passes together against a spirited but ultimately limited Sunderland side yesterday, not a good omen.

Lads feel free to start a 'Are Utd done thread',this is going to be a hard thread to mod without it turning into a Liverpool V Utd dick off.

Chardee MacDennis

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Typical of what? Benitez had years and Hodgson has been there 5 minutes. Are you going to pine for Rafa for the duration of Hodgson's tenure or let the chap get on with it?

BTW, similar criticisms were made about Ferguson when he took over at United, who had plenty of problems on and off the field, and he turned it round.

i didnt realise i was obstructing roy getting on with it?

typical double standards. rafa was holding the club together and over achieving yet only now are people saying "oh but look at the job roy has to do, the club is a mess". it's no coincidence that rafa won all of his trophies in the days before H&G and nothing since...

fergie turned it round after 7 years, just a pity managers dont get chances like that anymore.

PHB

Worse things could happen for the club that them sitting at this level for a year or two. Why? It would force the owners out, and then they can start the real re-building. Everything between now and then is pretty much just stalling imo.

That said, if he doesnt get above 6 points from the next four games, I think it's quite likely that he'll be in a very serious position.

Xavi6

flahavaj wrote: »

More than any personnel issue the thing thats killing Liverpool at the moment is their entire approach to the game - sitting off teams, letting them play and not pressing them hard enough on any part of the pitch. If you do that every game, like Liverpool have anytime I've seem them this, it doesn't matter if you have the great AC Milan backline as your defence - you're going to struggle against teams that can play a bit of ball, even the mediocre ones.

Indeed but to do a full team press you need to play with a high enough backline. That's where the problems come in when Kyrgiakos and Carragher are playing in the defence. Too high a line leaves them over exposed and you get hit.

If you don't play a high line then there's too big a gap between defence and midfield when doing the pressing. Someone like Charlie Adam today for example would have a field day in that space between.

Personnel means they can't play the pressing game.

Handsome Bob

Are you genuinely asking if we are facing relegation Xavi? If so, the answer is now. Way too early to make such a suggestion.

All that being said, I'm starting to think Roy isn't up to the challenge, and that's coming from someone who gave him every chance and who didn't begin to judge him until the Northampton game. 4 games later and I'm pretty sure now that Roy doesn't know how to manage that team.

I don't think it's an over reaction to say Blackpool bossed us today. At Anfield. Even if you think Rafa left Roy with a team full of plebs, those plebs still should have been more than enough to beat Blackpool at Anfield.

The team are playing like a bunch of pussies right now, and ironically enough what they need is someone like Holloway who can get them playing without fear. Note I'm not suggesting Holloway for the job, I'm just saying we need someone who will make those players get back the mentality of "we're ****ing Liverpool".

flahavaj

Xavi6 wrote: »

Indeed but to do a full team press you need to play with a high enough backline. That's where the problems come in when Kyrgiakos and Carragher are playing in the defence. Too high a line leaves them over exposed and you get hit.

If you don't play a high line then there's too big a gap between defence and midfield when doing the pressing. Someone like Charlie Adam today for example would have a field day in that space between.

Personnel means they can't play the pressing game.

There has to be some kind of a compromise between not bothering at all to press for the ball and playing a high line as a back four though. Not pressing at all for the ball seems retarded to me, but its being done on a consistent basis.

Like most problems its a multifactorial thing - the players seem to be not pressing enough, there are several individuals (especially defenders) who are in shocking form and more than one player is being played out of position.

I do agree that starting from the back is probably wise and that Skertl/Agger is by far the best pair of CB's they have atm, though.

Chucky the tree

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yeah because both were in the exact same boat, right?

Baffling to me how a guy like Hodgson, who was showered with praise from other great managers, as well as the media and fans alike, has suddently become a 'bad manager'.

Let's sum this up - great manager takes over a club in decline. The team subsequently struggles. Is it because:

a) The great manager became sh*t in a few months.

b) The club are in deeper trouble than was initally thought.

I would say option B is the most likely explanation.

It's actually option C.

C) Was never a great manager in the first place and was hugely over-rated because he's English and well liked.

Xavi6

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Are you genuinely asking if we are facing relegation Xavi?

No not at all as that was never really on the agenda for Liverpool when Roy took over.

What was on the agenda (I presume) was qualification for Europe through the league. Is that done? Of course not mathematically but I don't think it is likely.

Basically is the relationship between Hodgson and Liverpool done?

Mister men

Mr Alan wrote: »

sacking Benitez & replacing him with Hodgson at the cost of £10m is being shown as being one of the most comical actions taken by a football club in the modern era.

This

Mr.Nice Guy

BastardPrince wrote: »

i didnt realise i was obstructing roy getting on with it?

typical double standards. rafa was holding the club together and over achieving yet only now are people saying "oh but look at the job roy has to do, the club is a mess". it's no coincidence that rafa won all of his trophies in the days before H&G and nothing since...

fergie turned it round after 7 years, just a pity managers dont get chances like that anymore.

Rafa won nothing for years. He took over a club in decent nick, had success in the early stages and then won nothing during the end of his tenure. That's called taking a club backwards in my book, especially since they were outside the top 4 by the end with a better squad than Hodgson has now.

I suppose selling Alonso and buying Aquilani was Hodgson's fault too?

Handsome Bob

Xavi6 wrote: »

What was on the agenda (I presume) was qualification for Europe through the league. Is that done? Of course not mathematically but I don't think it is likely.

Europe is still a possibility. Even though it's been a disastrous start we are, in reality, only 7 games into the season. There's still plenty of time to get our **** together.

Basically is the relationship between Hodgson and Liverpool done?

To me, it is. He's just not right for Liverpool.

Chardee MacDennis

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Rafa won nothing for years. He took over a club in decent nick, had success in the early stages and then won nothing during the end of his tenure. That's called taking a club backwards in my book, especially since they were outside the top 4 by the end with a better squad than Hodgson has now.

I suppose selling Alonso and buying Aquilani was Hodgson's fault too?

league finishes iirc 5 - 4 - 4 - 2 - 7 so you take a one year sample of rafas reign and say he took the club backwards, fair enough...

Mr Alan

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Rafa won nothing for years. He took over a club in decent nick, had success in the early stages and then won nothing during the end of his tenure. That's called taking a club backwards in my book, especially since they were outside the top 4 by the end with a better squad than Hodgson has now.

I suppose selling Alonso and buying Aquilani was Hodgson's fault too?

in Rafas second last season he had his best performance in the PL.

we regressed backwards big time last year when a lack of investment over the previous couple of years came home to roost, a huge powerstruggle within the club boardroom broke out & a barbaric injury list hit us, all these things left us figting for our lives to get into the top 4 until May.

then we sacked the manager cause it was all his fault supposedly & he was incompetent, sold a few good players, replaced them as cheaply as possible & now we're looking like relegation canditates.

there is no justification for the managerial switch we made in the summer. none at all.

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Rafa won nothing for years. He took over a club in decent nick, had success in the early stages and then won nothing during the end of his tenure. That's called taking a club backwards in my book, especially since they were outside the top 4 by the end with a better squad than Hodgson has now.

I suppose selling Alonso and buying Aquilani was Hodgson's fault too?

Rafa made mistakes MNG, lots of them, but if Liverpool went backwards under him over time, it had as much to do with off the field matters than his prowess as a manager. He did a remarkable job working with what he had, all things considered IMO. Th more this season progress, the more it will become apparent that his finishing 7th ( and within a whisker of the CL places when you look at the table) was actually a decent enough effort.

Obviously its only 7 games in, but all the evidence that I've seen so far would point to Hodgson not being anywhere near as good as him at holding things together in the face of all the off field crap. If he gets 7th he'll have done brilliantly.

Kiwi_knock

Hodgson wants Liverpool to play like most other middle to low level Premiership teams. That they should sit back and cope with less possession. They should rely on a strong defence and really have no width, and have an all action forward to chase the ball down. Unfortunately Liverpool do not have the players for this style of play. Their defence is one of the weak points and they should not be relying upon it. Torres is not an all action forward, he is a predator not someone that will run himself ragged for 90 mins. Hodgson came in with his trusted formation but with a formation that did not suit the players he had at his disposal. What is surprising is that the players he brought in did not fit the formation either. Now he is stubbornly sticking with a formation that he knows, the players know, and the fans knows is incorrect. Hodgson could still turn it around if he changes his tactics to suit the players that he has, if he does I can see Liverpool moving back up the table. But if he persists with the wrong tactics Liverpool face a long season ahead.

Mr.Nice Guy

I take the point about the problems Rafa faced in the boardroom. I do however feel that the Aquilani transfer was a big moment. He forked out significant cash on a guy that was supposed to lessen the absence of Alonso and he spent most of the start of the season injured. Let's not forget Liverpool fans were fuming about this. I think this played a big role in Liverpool's poor finish last season.

In hindsight people are praising Rafa's finishes in the league but prior to those seasons the hope was to actually win the title. Just because Liverpool subsequently declined should not make those league finishes seem more respectable.

I just feel Hodgson is a great guy and warrants a chance. I feel he has major problems at the club and that he ought to have a go at implementing his philosophy on the club. I genuinely feel sorry for the flak he is going to get in the coming weeks.

Raskolnikov

The only thing comical here is that 7 games in and you want the manager sacked.

Mr Alan

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I do however feel that the Aquilani transfer was a big moment. He forked out significant cash on a guy that was supposed to lessen the absence of Alonso and he spent most of the start of the season injured. Let's not forget Liverpool fans were fuming about this. I think this played a big role in Liverpool's poor finish last season.

It was clear when Aquilani played his possessed serious quality-the transfer proved to be a poor one cause of injuries & we've inexplicably loaned him out this season. Personally I think replacing Mascherano with Poulsen is as bad a transfer.

Mr. Nice Guy wrote:

I just feel Hodgson is a great guy and warrants a chance. I feel he has major problems at the club and that he ought to have a go at implementing his philosophy on the club. I genuinely feel sorry for the flak he is going to get in the coming weeks.

He does seem a great guy, thats fine if he wants to be your mate, but it doesn't mean he is also a great manager.

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I take the point about the problems Rafa faced in the boardroom. I do however feel that the Aquilani transfer was a big moment. He forked out significant cash on a guy that was supposed to lessen the absence of Alonso and he spent most of the start of the season injured. Let's not forget Liverpool fans were fuming about this. I think this played a big role in Liverpool's poor finish last season.

In hindsight people are praising Rafa's finishes in the league but prior to those seasons the hope was to actually win the title. Just because Liverpool subsequently declined should not make those league finishes seem more respectable.

I just feel Hodgson is a great guy and warrants a chance. I feel he has major problems at the club and that he ought to have a go at implementing his philosophy on the club. I genuinely feel sorry for the flak he is going to get in the coming weeks.

I like Roy a lot but for me he's a mid table manager and Fulham and he were a match made in heaven. The tactics he employs and always has - defending in numbers - are suited perfectly to the likes of Fulham who's ambitions are pretty moderate, not a club like Liverpool where they should really be trying to win every game. Even his post match comments so far are suggestive of a guy who's bringing a small club mentality with him to what should be one of the giants of Europe. They players aren't even working hard for him, I think he may very well have lost them already.

I'm not one for knee jerk reactions usually, but this really really isn't working. Any Liverpool manager who wants to cosy up to Fergie shouldn't be in the job to be perfectly honest with you, amusing and all as it is from my POV.

Mr Alan

Raskolnikov wrote: »

The only thing comical here is that 7 games in and you want the manager sacked.

i'm not actually sure if he should be sacked, no one of the quality we had up until this season would want to touch the club with a barge pole in the state its currently in off the field. but it has become blindingly obvious that he never should have gotten the job in the first place.

orourkeda

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Hodgson wants Liverpool to play like most other middle to low level Premiership teams. That they should sit back and cope with less possession. They should rely on a strong defence and really have no width, and have an all action forward to chase the ball down. Unfortunately Liverpool do not have the players for this style of play. Their defence is one of the weak points and they should not be relying upon it. Torres is not an all action forward, he is a predator not someone that will run himself ragged for 90 mins. Hodgson came in with his trusted formation but with a formation that did not suit the players he had at his disposal. What is surprising is that the players he brought in did not fit the formation either. Now he is stubbornly sticking with a formation that he knows, the players know, and the fans knows is incorrect. Hodgson could still turn it around if he changes his tactics to suit the players that he has, if he does I can see Liverpool moving back up the table. But if he persists with the wrong tactics Liverpool face a long season ahead.

From the outside looking in, it appears that the teams tactics are (or at least should be) the least of the concerns of those that work for and support the club. Admittedly the first team and their results are the main focus for any club but the tactics alone arent the cause for the current malaise and it would appear to be far more deep rooted than this. I just wonder if a change of tactics will have that great an impact on a team low on confidence.

The playing personnel are simply not good enough and the accusation that Liverpool are a two man team has never been more appropriate. In fact even Fernando Torres isnt contributing for a variety of reasons.

Secondly the clubs finances appear to be a cause for concern and dont look like improving especially given the teams form and the present economic climate.

Raskolnikov

Mr Alan wrote: »

It was clear when Aquilani played his possessed serious quality

I suppose we shouldn't expect any less from a chap who thinks Babel is as good as Cristiano Ronaldo :P

empirix

a blind leper could see this is a disaster, the squad is nowhere near as bad as our league position indicates, Hodgson is more suited to the underdog battling for survival teams, his clearly out of his depth, ruthlessness must be adopted by the club, i would still hang onto him until Xmas, hopefully the yanks are gone by then!!

Chucky the tree

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I take the point about the problems Rafa faced in the boardroom. I do however feel that the Aquilani transfer was a big moment. He forked out significant cash on a guy that was supposed to lessen the absence of Alonso and he spent most of the start of the season injured. Let's not forget Liverpool fans were fuming about this. I think this played a big role in Liverpool's poor finish last season.

In hindsight people are praising Rafa's finishes in the league but prior to those seasons the hope was to actually win the title. Just because Liverpool subsequently declined should not make those league finishes seem more respectable.

I just feel Hodgson is a great guy and warrants a chance. I feel he has major problems at the club and that he ought to have a go at implementing his philosophy on the club. I genuinely feel sorry for the flak he is going to get in the coming weeks.

Would you want him managing United?

ShamoBuc

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm not actually sure if he should be sacked, no one of the quality we had up until this season would want to touch the club with a barge pole in the state its currently in off the field. but it has become blindingly obvious that he never should have gotten the job in the first place.

doesn't the second bit contradict the first?

Raskolnikov

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Would you want him managing United?

Spurious question.

United is a bigger job than Liverpool.

Mr Alan

Raskolnikov wrote: »

I suppose we shouldn't expect any less from a chap who thinks Babel is as good as Cristiano Ronaldo :P

i DEFINATELY never said anything like that! :P

Mr Alan

ShamoBuc wrote: »

doesn't the second bit contradict the first?

not really.

any managerial change should only be made if the current manager can be improved upon. i'm not sure if we can do that at the moment.

whats clear is that we should've been doing all we could in the summer to keep Benitez instead of paying 10m to get rid of him.

Handsome Bob

Mr Alan wrote: »

It was clear when Aquilani played his possessed serious quality

IMO he was very careless on the ball, he lost possession easily and tried alot of impossible passes. A mix of Luis Garcia and Stevie G so.

He definitely had talent but serious quality? Not to me I'm afraid. Him and Johnson were just poor signings by Rafa. He could have gotten better than Aqua, and could of had that player playing from the very first game of the season. And that ain't hindsight, I said that even before the 09/10 season started.

Mr Alan

i agree we could have done better, but its kinda beside the point, the aquilani transfer should not have resulted in Benitez losing his job.

Mr.Nice Guy

Perhaps Roy is not the right man for where Liverpool desire to be long-term, but for where they are at the minute I feel he is suitable. In other words, he might not be what Liverpool fans want but what they need. It's a transitional period for the club with Rafa and big characters leaving and surely stability is the main thing now. I think ditching Hodgson, especially if it's costly, could backfire big time, although he might walk if he feels it's the honourable thing.

As for would I want him at United, no I wouldn't. But I wouldn't want Rafa either. As I said earlier, there was a time when United fans wanted Fergie out when United were in a transitional phase yet the club persisted with him and good thing they did.

It's still early days in the season so there's time for Liverpool to move up the table. I am quite confident by the end of the season they will be in the top half.

orourkeda

Mr Alan wrote: »

i agree we could have done better, but its kinda beside the point, the aquilani transfer should not have resulted in Benitez losing his job.

It shouldnt have resulted in him losing his job on its own. It must have been at least a contributing factor though.

LuckyLloyd

He's not up to it. He should do the decent thing and walk. We're so much worse than last year it's shocking.

rossie1977

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

there was a time when United fans wanted Fergie out when United were in a transitional phase yet the club persisted with him and good thing they did.

difference there was that the utd fans wanted fergie out because he hadn't won them the league in his first 4 years, they were never in the relegation zone

hodgson had blackburn in the same position during his reign, the blackburn board didn't wait, they sacked him when they reached the bottom of the table, the only place liverpool are going under hodgson is relegation if you are losing to northampton and blackpool

opr

Incidentally according to gazzetta Aquilani starts tonight for Juve against Rafa's new club.

Opr

Wolfe Tone

I expected liverpool to be sh!t this season but not this sh!t. They are so bad I am (nearly) beginning to feel sorry for them.

Lads at this rate you will be lucky to get top half!


Basically I see liverpool becoming the new leeds. Doom.

If I was in charge I would do a whole sale clear out next summer. Torres has got to go, get a solid striker who doesnt break every few games. You should get good money for him, and get 2/3 good players. I would chop everyone except for Gerrard and Reina. A complete rebuild is what is needed.

Iago

mirwillbeback wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056040476

Just out of interest I'd love to know why mine was closed. Iago obviously didn't read the reasons I gave. I also posted the original " are Liverpool and rafa done " thread last year and the amount of stick I got from Liverpool fans was ridiculous, and yet I was proven right.

In this case, I think hodgson is wrong man for the job, and that Liverpool are done.

The original thread was closed because I felt it was a knee-jerk thread, you'll note that the "Are Liverpool & Rafa" done thread wasn't closed because after 5/6 years it's a debate that's worth having.

Your thread on Hodgson however was premature in my opinion hence why I locked it. If not for the below post I would have also locked this one (in fact I did, but then saw this post while I was going back through the thread)

If people genuinely want to debate if a manager is done when the season is only a few games old then so be it. Personally I think it's way too early to have the discussion but I'm not here to stifle debate just make sure that it's civil and relevant.

Dub13 wrote: »

I am going to let this thread roll and see what happens as its a genuine question that needs to be debated.No trolling/gloating whatsoever will be tolerated so don't say you have not been warned.




I can only speak for myself but here is my thinking on this,your thread was posted up on the 22 Sep after a league cup defeat.Before that game we had lost only to Utd and City and a few bad draws.

Since you made your thread we have gone on to have 3 bad results,this changes things IMO hence the change in decision.Don't get me wrong as a Liverpool fan I would love to lock this thread and run away and hide,but that would be the wrong call.