Are Hodgson and Liverpool done?

jesus_thats_gre

The Muppet wrote: »

LOLZ There's a slight difference between Keeping them up and challenging for 8th or better which is PHB's point, They just about stayed up, it could be argued that they caused more damaged to the team than good.

One or two quality players in an otherwise mediocre team will get you nowhere.

Who would have though eh, a blindly ignorant United fan that doesn't realise quite what Carlos Tevez offered a team when he played for them.

I am not particularly confident that you will derive accurate conclusions from the below data but I will post it anyway:

[b]West Ham Matches			0 - 28		29 - 38[/b]

Points Collected			20		21

Points per match			0.7		2.1

Goals Scored				18		17

Goals per match				0.9		1.7


Tevev Starts				8		10

Tevez Goals				0		7

Tevez Assists				0		5

So to conclude, when a world class player was given a run of straight 10 games in a West Ham team that were, at that stage, favourites for relegation, the clubs fortunes improved in the following way.

• In the first 28 games of the season, West Ham got an average of 0.7 points per game (20 points in total) and scored an average of 0.9 goals per match (18 goals in total).
  
• In the last 10 games of the season, West Ham go an average of 2.1 points per game (21 in total) and scored on average 1.7 goals per match (17 in total).
  
• In the first 28 games of the season, Tevez started just 9 matches and was directly involved in 0 goals (0 goals and 0 assists), i.e. he contributed to 0% of their total goal tally.
  
• In the last 10 games of the season, Tevez started all 10 games and was directly involved in 12 goals (7 goals and 5 assists), i.e. he directly contributed to 70% of their total goal tally.

So there you have it Muppet, pretty clear evidence that adding just a top class striker to a team hotly tipped for relegation can dramatically improve the clubs point tally for the season.

Combine the above with a world class midfielder and god knows just how much a team might improve.

NickDrake

Ever think that your players arent good enough?? Would Kuty, Ngog, Poulsan and Johnson all start for Utd Arsenal Chelsea or city.

Not in a million years.

Torres will never excell at Liverpool as he need a side that plays creative football not ugly long ball football.

jesus_thats_gre

NickDrake wrote: »

Ever think that your players arent good enough?? Would Kuty, Ngog, Poulsan and Johnson all start for Utd Arsenal Chelsea or city.

Not in a million years.

Torres will never excell at Liverpool as he need a side that plays creative football not ugly long ball football.

Kuyt and Johnson (Liverpool offered him better terms than Chelsea did) might.

There is little to separate Kalou and N'Gog so you could argue that one. Poulsen woudn't as he seems to be pretty damn ****.

NickDrake

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Kuyt and Johnson (Liverpool offered him better terms than Chelsea did) might.

There is little to separate Kalou and N'Gog so you could argue that one. Poulsen woudn't as he seems to be pretty damn ****.

Don'y think Kuyt would. not creative enough. Good work horse player.

Boskowski

I think Liverpool made some very bad decisions over the last two years. They sold the wrong guys, they didn't give their younger players enough game time to develop, the overplayed Gerrard and Torres. Btw Gerrard while being a good player he isn't that world class player anyway. Then that ridiculous manager exchange. While it may have been time to go for Rafa but on paper they replaced a top guy with a midtable grinder to the coat of several million.

I've seen it before and it can easily happen to Liverpool too. What looks like a bad start becomes a bad spell and while no one is really concerned for a while - I mean were The Pool after all - players and team confidence is shattered and before people start to realize the seriousness of the situation you have an all out relegation battle at hand. Then that big buyout may not happen that everybody seems to wait for. Add a bit of bad luck - which usually happens when you're in a rut, an unforeseen unjury - your best player us injured half the time anyway - and all of a sudden you starting to pray again. I don't wish that to happen to pool, I quite like them. But it dies look rather ominous at the moment

kryogen

Kuyt is well worth his place in most squads tbh

Boskowski

kryogen wrote: »

Kuyt is well worth his place in most squads tbh

He is one of Liverpools best players forvsome time. He doesn't get half the credit he deserves. With me he'd play evert week.

Le King

kryogen wrote: »

Kuyt is well worth his place in most squads tbh

Boskowski wrote: »

He is one of Liverpools best players forvsome time. He doesn't get half the credit he deserves. With me he'd play evert week.

He might not be as talented as other players who have their place in that team but he is well worth his place. His effort is second to none and he certainly makes up his spot in the team, a very under-rated player.

PHB

Torres and Gerrard up front as a partnership were as effective imo as Rooney Ronaldo for the period when Liverpool went 2nd. The difference was that United have significantly more in other parts of the pitch, while Liverpool had weaknesses elsewhere.

One truly world class player can make a team so much better. It's hard to see that because it's so rare that any top top class players play outside the top 4 anymore, even rarer that two of them play in the same team close to each other at the same time.

Mascherano and Tevez as a partnership aren't close to Rooney and Ronaldo or Gerrard-Torres at their peaks, not least because they weren't partnerships. But as you've seen above, one top player playing to his abilities got West Ham a very impressive points tally over 10 games, a points tally that would easily have put them into the top 8.
Players make a big difference, and Torres is one of the best strikers in the world.

flahavaj

Having a world class striker means the difference between playing badly and still winning and playing badly and getting nothing. It can cover over the cracks in an otherwise pretty mediocre team, like Torres has done for Liverpool for quite some time, or dare I say it Roonet did for United on many occasions last year.

Having top class quality up front is absoutley massive for any team at any level.

aidan24326

Le King wrote: »

He might not be as talented as other players who have their place in that team but he is well worth his place. His effort is second to none and he certainly makes up his spot in the team, a very under-rated player.

Kuyt isn't so much under-rated anymore, I think most Liverpool supporters realise the contribution he makes, even if it took a while for him to win them over.

Le King

aidan24326 wrote: »

Kuyt isn't so much under-rated anymore, I think most Liverpool supporters realise the contribution he makes, even if it took a while for him to win them over.

In fairness I don't agree with that. Liverpool isn't the football world. Generally Kuyt is under-rated by the average football fan.

K-9

Le King wrote: »

In fairness I don't agree with that. Liverpool isn't the football world. Generally Kuyt is under-rated by the average football fan.

The World Cup should have wakened people up about him, playing outside the club environment.

First name on the team sheet for me if playing a top 6 side. Playing Kuyt on the wing also gives Johnson some protection and my God, he needs it.

GuanYin

K-9 wrote: »

Playing Kuyt on the wing also gives Johnson some protection and my God, he needs it.

One of the more sensible assessments I've seen on this thread regarding Liverpool.

They're finished this season, mediocrity all the way. I wouldn't judge too harshly though, the problem with Liverpool wasn't the manager, or at least, just the manager, the problem was that there were and are too many average players and over-rated players with no heart.

Hodgson came in (much to my sadness, unless he brinks all the US players to Liverpool ) but the roster is much the same. He'll need a season to get his own 11 players on the field. Then I think Liverpool may move forward.

I expect this season to be very painful for Liverpool fans.

Mr Alan

well look who it is....

johnnyjb

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

facepalm.jpg

Im sorry peoples views are distorted ,maybe its cause their pool fans but Liverpool had a great rep but now their f-ed.

Thats my opinion. Im happy i dont follow that poisoned chalice of a team. Benitez will most likely dismantle Inter and bring them to their knees.

whatawaster

GuanYin wrote: »

He'll need a season to get his own 11 players on the field.

His own eleven will probably include Poulsen and Konchesky. It will also include an international central midfielder (who cost us pretty much all our transfer budget) playing on the right wing.

No. Thank. You.

ShiverinEskimo

whatawaster wrote: »

His own eleven will probably include Poulsen and Konchesky. It will also include an international central midfielder (who cost us pretty much all our transfer budget) playing on the right wing.

No. Thank. You.

Benitez was a master of playing players out of position so not much has changed in that regard.

Cyrus

NickDrake wrote: »

Torres will never excell at Liverpool as he need a side that plays creative football not ugly long ball football.

wtf

is it not at liverpool he became one of the best strikers in the world

BrookieD

johnnyjb wrote: »

Im sorry peoples views are distorted ,maybe its cause their pool fans but Liverpool had a great rep but now their f-ed.

Thats my opinion. Im happy i dont follow that poisoned chalice of a team. Benitez will most likely dismantle Inter and bring them to their knees.

Kinda glad you dont follow Liverpool tbh. :rolleyes:

whatawaster

This is not a debate about Benitez.

Whether you were a fan of him or not, Rafa is gone, and he’s not coming back any time soon.

It’s a question of whether or not Hodgson is the best man to lead us forward. He clearly isn’t.

Mr Alan

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Benitez was a master of playing players out of position so not much has changed in that regard.

Kuyt.....and.......?

(worth noting that he changed Kuyts position as player, which has now become Kuyts primary position, with him being one of the Dutch's best players, playing in a wide position, on their way to this years world cup final)

Xavi6

Cyrus wrote: »

wtf

is it not at liverpool he became one of the best strikers in the world

No he became that at Athletico.

Liverpool just bought one of the best strikers in the world.

Mr Alan

Xavi6 wrote: »

No he became that at Athletico.

Liverpool just bought one of the best strikers in the world.

Its fair to say his performances & his reputation increased 10 fold when he made the move to Liverpool.

ShiverinEskimo

Mr Alan wrote: »

Its fair to say his performances & his reputation increased 10 fold when he made the move to Liverpool.

Probably more likely is that you just became more aware of them. He was phenomenal and extremely reputable in Spain.

Cyrus

Xavi6 wrote: »

No he became that at Athletico.

Liverpool just bought one of the best strikers in the world.

disagree, he wasnt considered one of the best in the world until after his first season at anfield

we bought a player with incredible potential, rafa brought it out

if he was widely considered one of the best in the world at athletico why was he not bought when the big teams were spending far in excess of his price tag on strikers

ferguson has admitted that be pulled out of making a bid for him

Dub13

Xavi6 wrote: »

No he became that at Athletico.

Liverpool just bought one of the best strikers in the world.

As pointed out a couple of managers and loads in the media taught we paid over the odds for a player with potential,I remember loads of people saying stuff like 'He is good,but will not get you 20 a season in the PL'.

Xavi6

Dub13 wrote: »

As pointed out a couple of managers and loads in the media taught we paid over the odds for a player wth potential,I remember loads of people saying stuff like 'He is good,but will not get you 20 a season in the PL'.

English media? Usual 'Premier League is the bestest league eva!' bollox. Basically a player isn't proven til he does it in England.

He proved himself in what is a great league while playing for a lesser team.

Mr Alan

Torres has spoken at length about how his game improved when he came to Liverpool.

His goal tallies both internationally & at club level as well as his reputation worldwide increased dramatically too as a result of this.

RasTa

Yeah but Paul Scholes scores goals.

Mr Alan

RasTa wrote: »

Yeah but Paul Scholes scores goals.

Can't tackle for **** though.

mike65

Is this where all the stupid posts are going?

Goodo.

ShiverinEskimo

Mr Alan wrote: »

Torres has spoken at length about how his game improved when he came to Liverpool.

His goal tallies both internationally & at club level as well as his reputation worldwide increased dramatically too as a result of this.

Well naturally his game has improved - he's getting older and getting more experience. That would have happened at any club he might have gone to and would have happened had he stayed.

You're suggesting he was some kind of diamond in the rough. He was an incredible young player when ye bought him. Now he's an incredible crocked experienced player.

Fuhrer

Mr Alan wrote: »

His goal tallies both internationally & at club level as well as his reputation worldwide increased dramatically too as a result of this.

His international goal tally hasnt got any better

Mr. Presentable

Mr Alan wrote: »

Its fair to say his performances & his reputation increased 10 fold when he made the move to Liverpool.

Only in the solar system whose sun is BSKYB. In the footballing hinterland that is the rest of Europe he was acknowledged and lauded.

iregk

Mr Alan wrote: »

His goal tallies both internationally & at club level as well as his reputation worldwide increased dramatically too as a result of this.

Goals scored for Spain pre Liverpool move - 14
Goals scored for Spain since Liverpool move - 13

Stunning improvement there Mr A.

ShiverinEskimo

I'm not sure Al but I think the lads are trying to tell you that his International goals tally hasn't improved all that much since his move.

I might be wrong though.

SlickRic

i hope people aren't trying to say Torres hasn't improved since joining Liverpool; or that part of his improvement hasn't been because of Liverpool Football Club.

improvement was not guaranteed to happen wherever he went, just because he got older and mature. i could name dozens of players off the top of my head who didn't get better as they got older.

and he was never touted in Spain as a goalscoring extraordinaire before he moved, in fact, not being clinical was one of the things that people held against him.

he was most certainly a great young player, and we most certainly didn't get anything as raw as a diamond in the rough, but he was also not close to the all-round striker you see today (when he's fit).

missingtime

SlickRic wrote: »

i hope people aren't trying to say Torres hasn't improved since joining Liverpool; or that part of his improvement hasn't been because of Liverpool Football Club.

improvement was not guaranteed to happen wherever he went, just because he got older and mature. i could name dozens of players off the top of my head who didn't get better as they got older.

and he was never touted in Spain as a goalscoring extraordinaire before he moved, in fact, not being clinical was one of the things that people held against him.

he was most certainly a great young player, and we most certainly didn't get anything as raw as a diamond in the rough, but he was also not close to the all-round striker you see today (when he's fit).

Agreed. In fact a lot of people thought he was a risk for the amount spent.

Didn't he play on the left for Athletico as well?

ShiverinEskimo

I think the fact he hit the ground running and had his best season in his first season shows he was closer to the finished article upon his arrival than a lot of Liverpool fans would have you believe.

Smegball

I actually thought Torres would have been alot worse than he actually is, I always got the impression his finishing was terribly inconsistent at Atletico.

Mr Alan

Smegball wrote: »

I actually thought Torres would have been alot worse than he actually is, I always got the impression his finishing was terribly inconsistent at Atletico.

It was he'd never clocked up a total of more than 20 in a season before his move. In less appearances for Liverpool his games/game ratio has gone through to the roof.

Apologies about the international stats, the ones i was looking at (espn) were not including loads of his international goals for some reason? Espn shows him having 6 goals in internationals until his move to Liverpool?!

Cyrus

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

I think the fact he hit the ground running and had his best season in his first season shows he was closer to the finished article upon his arrival than a lot of Liverpool fans would have you believe.

no, he was fit all season and his strengths were played to and he improved

your rationale would mean berbatov was bound to be a success in his first season at united, yet he hasnt rediscovered his spurs form until this season

i dont remember any united or chelsea fans shouting for their clubs to sign torres before he went to liverpool, now he was world class all along and liverpool had nothing to do with it, mind boggles

i suppose ye all secretly knew of alonso and reina too

The Muppet

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Who would have though eh, a blindly ignorant United fan that doesn't realise quite what Carlos Tevez offered a team when he played for them.

I am not particularly confident that you will derive accurate conclusions from the below data but I will post it anyway:

[B]West Ham Matches            0 - 28        29 - 38[/B]
 
Points Collected            20        21
 
Points per match            0.7        2.1
 
Goals Scored                18        17
 
Goals per match                0.9        1.7
 
 
Tevev Starts                8        10
 
Tevez Goals                0        7
 
Tevez Assists                0        5

So to conclude, when a world class player was given a run of straight 10 games in a West Ham team that were, at that stage, favourites for relegation, the clubs fortunes improved in the following way.

• In the first 28 games of the season, West Ham got an average of 0.7 points per game (20 points in total) and scored an average of 0.9 goals per match (18 goals in total).
  
• In the last 10 games of the season, West Ham go an average of 2.1 points per game (21 in total) and scored on average 1.7 goals per match (17 in total).
  
• In the first 28 games of the season, Tevez started just 9 matches and was directly involved in 0 goals (0 goals and 0 assists), i.e. he contributed to 0% of their total goal tally.
  
• In the last 10 games of the season, Tevez started all 10 games and was directly involved in 12 goals (7 goals and 5 assists), i.e. he directly contributed to 70% of their total goal tally.

So there you have it Muppet, pretty clear evidence that adding just a top class striker to a team hotly tipped for relegation can dramatically improve the clubs point tally for the season.

Combine the above with a world class midfielder and god knows just how much a team might improve.

Blindly ignorant is it or is it that you live in a black and white world?

All you table proves to me is that Tervez scored more goals in the seond half of the season than he did the first,To stretch that to any other conclusion is impossible.

Tell me in this black and white world how do you account for West Ham finishing 9th the season previous to Tevez and Macheranos arrival ? Which is the basis for my comment that it could be argued that their arrival was actually detrimental to the team. Using you logic I assume you now agree with me.

Obviously better individual players should lead to better team but to say having two quality players in an otherwise mediocre team should guarantee 8th or better is a stupid argument to make imo.

Nuri Sahin

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Only in the solar system whose sun is BSKYB. In the footballing hinterland that is the rest of Europe he was acknowledged and lauded.

Yet according to many La Liga fans, he wasn't lauded in his own country!

I'm on another forum where many supporters from all over Europe(and the world) post. Many of which are from Spain and support teams like Barca, Valencia, Celta Vigo, Real Madrid, Bilbao and Atletico supporters. So it's a nice spread.

Anyway. Most of them are extremely clued up on Spanish football and they will tell you he wasn't lauded in Spain by the time he left for Liverpool and even sometime before that. A few even considered him a bit of a joke.

He was regarded as nothing more than a pace merchant who couldn't finish by many in the media too.

Not many managers were willing to stump up the money we did because there was doubts over him and again, have been sometime before that too.

ShiverinEskimo

Cyrus wrote: »

no, he was fit all season and his strengths were played to and he improved

your rationale would mean berbatov was bound to be a success in his first season at united, yet he hasnt rediscovered his spurs form until this season

i dont remember any united or chelsea fans shouting for their clubs to sign torres before he went to liverpool, now he was world class all along and liverpool had nothing to do with it, mind boggles

i suppose ye all secretly knew of alonso and reina too

No my rationale would suggest berbatov underperformed in his first season. Going by your rationale Torres over-performed on his first season since according to you he was a young raw player in need of learning and guidance.

The fact is Torres had a phenomenal first season from the word go - so just how much development and nuturing did Liverpool do in the pre-season of that year that brought him on the leaps and bounds you're claiming?

LuckyLloyd

johnnyjb wrote: »

Im sorry peoples views are distorted ,maybe its cause their pool fans but Liverpool had a great rep but now their f-ed.

Thats my opinion. Im happy i dont follow that poisoned chalice of a team. Benitez will most likely dismantle Inter and bring them to their knees.

Pretty clear you have little idea what you're talking about. Benitez will have little say in what transfers Inter make / don't make - similar to Mourinho, and the vast majority of Inter managers before them.

Mr Alan

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

The fact is Torres had a phenomenal first season from the word go - so just how much development and nuturing did Liverpool do in the pre-season of that year that brought him on the leaps and bounds you're claiming?

A massive amount, according to Torres.

Everyone from Gerrard to Benitez to our goalkeeping coach played a role in Torres improving massively as a player, its not really up for dispute, unless you think you know more than the man himself on the matter?

ShiverinEskimo

Mr Alan wrote: »

A massive amount, according to Torres.

Everyone from Gerrard to Benitez to our goalkeeping coach played a role in Torres improving massively as a player, its not really up for dispute, unless you think you know more than the man himself on the matter?

Fair enough. Fair enough. I just find it amazing that in one summer he turned from a potential player to a lethal striker. If only Liverpool could have performed similar miracles with some of the other raw, potential-filled players.

The Muppet

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Fair enough. Fair enough. I just find it amazing that in one summer he turned from a potential player to a lethal striker. If only Liverpool could have performed similar miracles with some of the other raw, potential-filled players.

In Al's world thats what happens when a player signs for Liverpool. Insua, Johnson, Kuyt, lucas all became world class in that manner .:)