Tesco's denial of Christmas

mealone

Heard an advertisement last night and today from Tesco and during that advert they do not use the word Christmas but December 25 and "that time of the year" Well I have now stopped using Tesco and am urging all my friends to do likewise. Their attempt to play up to newcomers to Ireland who are non Christians is disgraceful. If I go to a Muslim country, I must obey their rules. So to Mr. Tesco, this is a Christian country and we celebrate Christmas, you know, the time of the year that Christians celebrate the birth of Christ and also where you make your fortunes . So Dunne's who are not afraid to use the word Christmas get all my business this year and every other year. I appeal to all to boycott Tesco and encourage others to do likewise and like I did to email them in protest.

Herbal Deity

Ireland is not a Christian country, it is a secular country with a majority of Christians.

Christianity does not make one any more or less Irish.

Tesco, as a private organisation are free to advertise as they wish.

philologos

OP: Ultimately that is going to be the way of the world. Everyone knows why Christmas is celebrated, it's because of Jesus. If people wish to deny that, that's their own prerogative, but we all know why it is.

Christmas, is still pretty much a Christian festival. You needn't worry. I'm not going to really kick a fuss with Tesco about it.

mealone

Who said Ireland is not Christian? Who changed it and when exactly?Always was and will be in to future hopefully. Teco are trying to follow the same path as some organizations in the UK who are afraid to use the word Christmas.Tesco staff should protest against this stupidity. If they are trying to deny Christmas, then let us cease the festival totally and see the Tescos of this Christian country suffer. The festival we celebrate is in honour of Jesus and is not a secularist festival and if it is pray tell me what it is then? Well I celebrate Christmas and Dunne's will get my business this year.

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Ireland is not a Christian country, it is a secular country with a majority of Christians.

Christianity does not make one any more or less Irish.

Tesco, as a private organisation are free to advertise as they wish.

alex73

I would call myself a Conservative Catholic. But if Tesco does not want to use the word "Christmas" that is their choice. Its a Shop.. and to be honest its better they don't get mixed up in religion.


For the Record.. they do recognise Christmas they are closed. Correct?

Herbal Deity

mealone wrote: »

Who said Ireland is not Christian? Who changed it and when exactly?Always was and will be in to future hopefully.

Ireland has always been a secular country.

Constitution of Ireland, Article 44 wrote:

2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Youth_Zone/About_the_Constitution,_Flag,_Anthem_Harp/Constitution_of_Ireland_Eng_Nov2004.htm

There exists a Christian slant in our Constitution, our Laws and in other aspects of public life, but we are still a secular country and companies are perfectly entitled to advertise in as secularly or as religiously inclined a manner as they wish.

Similarly, you are perfectly entitled to not buy Tesco's products if you do not want to. I don't see why you feel there should be a crusade against them.

Sardonicat

mealone wrote: »

Their attempt to play up to newcomers to Ireland who are non Christians is disgraceful. If I go to a Muslim country, I must obey their rules. So to Mr. Tesco, this is a Christian country and we celebrate Christmas, you know, the time of the year that Christians celebrate the birth of Christ and also where you make your fortunes.

I'd say the ad does not mention Christmas just yet because they're saving the C word til later before we reach saturation point too soon.

Interesting that you associate "newcomers" to the country as being largely Muslim, when in fact, the majority come from christian/catholic eastern european countries.

Muslims, I believe, also celebrate Christmas, as Christ is a regarded as a prophet in Islam. (if I've got that wrong, apologies to any muslims reading, perhaps you could clarify?)

"I don't know. They come over here, they take our women, our jobs, our ancient pagan festivals......:rolleyes:"

mikemac

As they say in America, "Happy holidays OP"

wmpdd3

They didn't say Christmas because they can't until 25th of Oct. Media rules!

mealone

alex73 wrote: »

I would call myself a Conservative Catholic. But if Tesco does not want to use the word "Christmas" that is their choice. Its a Shop.. and to be honest its better they don't get mixed up in religion.


For the Record.. they do recognise Christmas they are closed. Correct?

Then we should stop celebrating Easter as that is aslo a Christian festival and Thursday as it is named after a Roman God. St. Patrick's day should be banned also? Anyway I find it very objectionable that these idiots are pandering to the demands of some to remove the name of our Christian festival celebrated towards to end of the year, from our calendar.

mealone

Sardonicat wrote: »

I'd say the ad does not mention Christmas just yet because they're saving the C word til later before we reach saturation point too soon.

Interesting that you associate "newcomers" to the country as being largely Muslim, when in fact, the majority come from christian/catholic eastern european countries.

Muslims, I believe, also celebrate Christmas, as Christ is a regarded as a prophet in Islam. (if I've got that wrong, apologies to any muslims reading, perhaps you could clarify?)

"I don't know. They come over here, they take our women, our jobs, our ancient pagan festivals......:rolleyes:"

I do not say that the wave of immigrants are Muslim. I gave an example of one country, where I said that "if I went to a muslim country" and I should have added "for example"
Pagan festival????? That is stretching it somewhat............

Sardonicat

mealone wrote: »

Then we should stop celebrating Easter as that is aslo a Christian festival and Thursday as it is named after a Roman God. St. Patrick's day should be banned also? Anyway I find it very objectionable that these idiots are pandering to the demands of some to remove the name of our Christian festival celebrated towards to end of the year, from our calendar.

Wow! The poster you responded do expresses a belief that business and relgion should not be mixed and you infer from that they would support a "ban" on all public expressions of religion. Some logic you've got going on there!

As a poster has already clarified for you, the ad does not mention Christmas 'cos they are not allowed til Oct 25. Does this not assuage your paranoia fears ?

monosharp

Jakkass wrote: »

OP: Ultimately that is going to be the way of the world. Everyone knows why Christmas is celebrated, it's because of Jesus.

No and I'd wager most people here even know that. But some people have a funny way of making themselves believe something even though they know it to be untrue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#History

It's celebrated because the Christians hijacked an ancient pagan festival.

Gift-giving is from Saturnalia, greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year and Yule logs and various foods from Germanic feasts.

Maybe Tesco should use a more historically accurate name for that time of year, dies Natalis Solis Invicti perhaps. The birthday of the unconquered sun.

philologos

It's not up to businesses to promote Jesus at the centre of Christmas. It's up to us to share the message with those around us. It is largely up to Christians as to how Christmas will be portrayed.

monosharp: I know well of its origins. Ultimately in its modern form it's a Christian festival, irrespective of how much people want to deny it.

alex73

mealone wrote: »

Then we should stop celebrating Easter as that is aslo a Christian festival and Thursday as it is named after a Roman God. St. Patrick's day should be banned also? Anyway I find it very objectionable that these idiots are pandering to the demands of some to remove the name of our Christian festival celebrated towards to end of the year, from our calendar.

Look I work for an American Company who operates all over the world. At Christmas we send "Seasons greetings cards" I even get them from Muslims.

The word Christmas is written on many of the Christmas products sold in Tesco. But I don't think Tesco should be drawn into a Religious war. If they do or Don't want to use the Word Christmas that is their Choice.

We all know its Christmas, The Day our lord was born.. Its not like ASDA or Dunnes Stores are any holier than Tesco.. They should stick to doing what they are good at.. Selling Food...

philologos

^^ More than likely it isn't the day when Jesus was born, but it is the day when it is typically celebrated. We don't know for certain when Jesus was born.

mealone

Sardonicat wrote: »

Wow! The poster you responded do expresses a belief that business and relgion should not be mixed and you infer from that they would support a "ban" on all public expressions of religion. Some logic you've got going on there!

As a poster has already clarified for you, the ad does not mention Christmas 'cos they are not allowed til Oct 25. Does this not assuage your paranoia fears ?

Clearly you are picking. I am not paranoid matey. Drop it

mealone

Jakkass wrote: »

^^ More than likely it isn't the day when Jesus was born, but it is the day when it is typically celebrated. We don't know for certain when Jesus was born.

Very possibly we are wrong but that is the internationally accepted day that we celebrate Christ's birth.He may have been born in September or even June.

Fanny Cradock

I don't believe it is correct to state that Ireland is a Christian country. It is a country where the majority of the population self-identifies as Christian. In similar manner, Ireland is not a secular State. If people are confused about this they should look at the education system or read the preamble to the Constitution of Ireland.

The term Xmas is ubiquitous at this stage. It pervades the media and large parts of society. If you hang around Boards long enough and you'll see what I'm talking about. Tesco is out to make money. Generally the best way of doing this is not to cause ripples of discontent amongst your customers. The fact is that most people wont be annoyed by their decision to drop mention of Christ from the season but possibly some may be offended if they left it in.

I'm not sure that this shift away from the Christian roots of Christmas has much to do with Muslims. Indeed, in my experience it is normally not our co-religionists who are pushing for the removal of religious references from the public square.

alex73

In Tesco's Defence they do use the word Christmas on their own branded products.

Tesco Christmas Pudding 228G
Tesco Christmas Family Biscuit Selection 500G
Tesco Christmas Milk Chocolate Tree Decorations 100G
Tesco Christmas Festive Gummies 70G
Tesco Christmas White Chocolate Coins 75G

unlike

Mr Kipling 6 Festive Bakewell Tarts.

I think you are focusing wrongly in on them..

Sardonicat

I would also like to ad that, to many Christians, or indeed non-Christians, the over commercialisation of Christmas is also deeply offensive.

alex73

Sardonicat wrote: »

I would also like to ad that, to many Christians, or indeed non-Christians, the over commercialisation of Christmas is also deeply offensive.

You hit the nail on the head!!!.... Buy buy buy .. Crazy... Last year we spent the same in Dec as we did in nov. no Change. (just the Turkey) People go crazy at Christmas. Then you end up with tons of stuff you will never eat.

Herbal Deity

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't believe it is correct to state that Ireland is a Christian country. It is a country where the majority of the population self-identifies as Christian. In similar manner, Ireland is not a secular State. If people are confused about this they should look at the education system or read the preamble to the Constitution of Ireland.

Well, Article 44.2 of the constitution is admittedly a little contradictory given the huge bias towards Christianity throughout the document. But I would still view Ireland as secular with a few glaring non-secular aspects.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

The term Xmas is ubiquitous at this stage.

It's also not a secular term:

"Xmas" is a common abbreviation of the word "Christmas". It is sometimes pronounced /ˈɛksməs/, but it, and variants such as "Xtemass", originated as handwriting abbreviations for the typical pronunciation, /ˈkrɪsməs/. The "-mas" part is from the Latin-derived Old English word for "mass",[1] while the "X" comes from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of the Greek word Χριστός, translated as "Christ".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas

Fanny Cradock

Sardonicat wrote: »

I would also like to ad that, to many Christians, or indeed non-Christians, the over commercialisation of Christmas is also deeply offensive.

Indeed!

And I would take this a bit further and point out that there are Christian who don't celebrate Christmas at all. In fact, there is zero evidence that the earliest Christians were in anyway bothered with celebrating the birth date of Jesus.

drkpower

Jakkass wrote: »

Ultimately in its modern form it's a Christian festival, irrespective of how much people want to deny it.

Nah; ultimately its a family occasion, to be spent with one's family and friends. I would wager a guess that the vast majority of Irish people think more about their family & friends at Christmas, then they do of Baby Jebus & the Three Musketeers.

Fanny Cradock

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Well, Article 44.2 of the constitution is admittedly a little contradictory given the huge bias towards Christianity throughout the document. But I would still view Ireland as secular with a few glaring non-secular aspects.

You are, of course, entitled to hold to the opinion that Ireland is a secular State in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Herbal Deity wrote: »

It's also not a secular term:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas

Who said it was a secular term? The point is that while you and I might be aware of the origins of the X in Xmas not everybody who uses it is aware of the etymology. For that matter, even if they are aware of the historical usage I would be surprised if they use the X in line with the Greek origins of the abbreviation. Anyway, I'm not really interested in discussing the rights and wrongs of the term "Xmas".

drkpower

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't believe it is correct to state that Ireland is a Christian country. It is a country where the majority of the population self-identifies as Christian. In similar manner, Ireland is not a secular State. If people are confused about this they should look at the education system or read the preamble to the Constitution of Ireland.

The preamble is legally non-binding. Of course, we are not a secular country but there is nothing in the Constitution that stops us from being one.

Edit: with the exception, perhaps, of the blasphemy provision. And up until Ahern's intervention, that provision was of no relevence whatsoever.

philologos

drkpower wrote: »

Nah; ultimately its a family occasion, to be spent with one's family and friends. I would wager a guess that the vast majority of Irish people think more about their family & friends at Christmas, then they do of Baby Jebus & the Three Musketeers.

As I say, people can dismiss that Christ is the reason for Christmas, but nonetheless people still know that He is. It's a tiresome argument that happens each year. If people wish to think of other reasons, they can be my guest, but we all know why it happens.

Fanny Cradock

drkpower wrote: »

Of course, we are not a secular country but there is nothing in the Constitution that stops us from being one.

And funnily enough you will probably find that quite a few Christians (I'm just going on personal experience here so I can't speak for other religions) would like to see Ireland move towards becoming a secular State. Problems arise when those desiring a secular State can't quite agree on where the limits of secularisation lie.

Herbal Deity

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You are, of course, entitled to hold to the opinion that Ireland is a secular State in the face of evidence to the contrary.

It depends on what you mean by secular. We're not completely secular, but I think that Ireland does purport to be a secular state in many ways.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Who said it was a secular term?

Who said this was an argument? It's an interesting fact, nothing more.

Fanny Cradock

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Who said this was an argument?

Not me! I never used the word.

drkpower

Jakkass wrote: »

As I say, people can dismiss that Christ is the reason for Christmas, but nonetheless people still know that He is. It's a tiresome argument that happens each year. If people wish to think of other reasons, they can be my guest, but we all know why it happens.

I dont dismiss that JC is the reason for Christmas becoming a popular festival; there is no doubt about that. But if you ask what Christmas now means to most people; it means family & friends. That is equally clear.

philologos

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Problems arise when those desiring a secular State can't quite agree on where the limits of secularisation lie.

Too true. It's one of the key reasons why I've toned down any real support I have for a secular State, because I'm becoming more and more skeptical as to what people are using it to describe. I have a feeling that what I think of a secular State, and what some of the more ardent atheists on the "other forum" might think of a secular State is actually wildly different.

A similar discussion came up amongst friends of mine at university who are Christians. Largely the consensus was that any particular church should not dominate politics, but that churches need to have a voice in respect to political affairs. Not a dominating voice, but a contributing voice certainly. The State does need to take moral contributions from numerous branches in life, and the churches are one of those branches.

I think that this is a reasonable take, but I doubt that there would be much agreement that this is what the people on the "other forum" would like. Primarily because they don't desire any input from any church for the most part. (Correct me if I am wrong).

drkpower: I'm not sure if it is quite so true. Over the last while I've been surprised at how many people (even around my age) still have a strong interest in Christianity in its numerous forms in this country.

drkpower

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

And funnily enough you will probably find that quite a few Christians (I'm just going on personal experience here so I can't speak for other religions) would like to see Ireland move towards becoming a secular State. Problems arise when those desiring a secular State can't quite agree on where the limits of secularisation lie.

Agreed; when it comes to achieving a secular state, the most important people are moderate Christians. Groups like AI contiunually fail to appreciate that.

drkpower

Jakkass wrote: »

drkpower: I'm not sure if it is quite so true. Over the last while I've been surprised at how many people (even around my age) still have a strong interest in Christianity in its numerous forms in this country.

Im sure there are; but Christmas to most people means children, family, friends, togetherness. Even to most Christians, Jesus's ranking is quite a bit lower.

Fanny Cradock

Jakkass wrote: »

A similar discussion came up amongst friends of mine at university who are Christians. Largely the consensus was that any particular church should not dominate politics, but that churches need to have a voice in respect to political affairs. Not a dominating voice, but a contributing voice certainly. The State does need to take moral contributions from numerous branches in life, and the churches are one of those branches.

I think that this is a reasonable take, but I doubt that there would be much agreement that this is what the people on the "other forum" would like. Primarily because they don't desire any input from any church for the most part. (Correct me if I am wrong).

Well said! It seems safe to say that someone like Sam Harris, for example, would desire a different set of goals from secularisation than would we. I pick Harris as an example because he seems to lie in and around the incompatible extremes.

philologos

I wouldn't necessarily agree drkpower - it's a pointless argument really. People will still automatically associate Christmas, with Christ, even if they don't take religion too seriously. It's a fallacious argument to suggest that the connection is outdated, or that there is no substance to it in reality. It's an argument churned out every year, and every year Christmas continues in its Christian form.

wolfsbane

drkpower wrote: »

I dont dismiss that JC is the reason for Christmas becoming a popular festival; there is no doubt about that. But if you ask what Christmas now means to most people; it means family & friends. That is equally clear.

"Aren't we forgetting the true meaning of Christmas? You know, the birth of Santa."
Bart Simpson

Herbal Deity

The connection isn't outdated, it just doesn't necessarily apply to everyone.

Ghost Buster

mealone wrote: »

Then we should stop celebrating Easter as that is aslo a Christian festival and Thursday as it is named after a Roman God. St. Patrick's day should be banned also? Anyway I find it very objectionable that these idiots are pandering to the demands of some to remove the name of our Christian festival celebrated towards to end of the year, from our calendar.

Hey. Dont read any of the posts prior to the one quoted above. It might ruin this rant you have decided to indulge in!

Ghost Buster

mealone wrote: »

Then we should stop celebrating Easter as that is aslo a Christian festival and Thursday as it is named after a Roman God. St. Patrick's day should be banned also? Anyway I find it very objectionable that these idiots are pandering to the demands of some to remove the name of our Christian festival celebrated towards to end of the year, from our calendar.

So Tescos, by not mentioning Christmas due to media rules have banned Christmas hey. Thats one powerful shop!!!

alex73

Tesco's DO mention Christmas.. I think the Guy/Girl who started the thread must have it out for them.

Edgedinblue

If Tesco were really denying christmas wouldnt that mean they wouldnt stock ANY christmas stuff at all?

Zombrex

How dare Tesco Corporation not continue the commercialization of the holiday of Christmas in order to sell their products!

This utterly outrageous, everyone knows that Christmas is about buying stuff

And if Tescos refuse to accept that, if they refuse to acknowledge this and instead like to pretend that actually Christmas is a religious holiday about celebrating the birth of Jesus and the message he brought to Earth rather than spending ridiculous amounts of money on materialism and over consumption then I think we should all rise up and boycott them completely.

How dare they not try to make money by associating themselves with the birth of the Lord? The cheek of them!

If this is allowed to continue, if we end up with a Christmas holiday that doesn't involve large faceless corporations trying to flog us tons of crap we don't need by associating themselves with Christmas then I fear that the commercial and materialistic aspects of Christmas will be lost for ever and we will have to return to the depressing sight of Christmas being a time of personal and family celebration, a time where materialism is forgotten and people focus on spirituality, peace, community and love for each other. Rather than buying crap.

I for one never want to return to such a time. I do not want to live in a world where children are brought up learning that Christmas is a religious holiday celebrating Jesus, they should learn about Christmas as we did, through the advertisements of toy companies who inform them that they are to nag the crap out their parents for presents on Christmas just because its Christmas. They deserve presents, they require presents and if the toy companies don't inform them of this then they risk confusing Christmas with some wishy washy religious nonsense about being nice to each other and not desiring Earthly goods.

Rise up people, rise up, we cannot allow this to happen!

Now, who wants to buy a Jesus Brand Waffle Iron!

alex73

Edgedinblue wrote: »

If Tesco were really denying christmas wouldnt that mean they wouldnt stock ANY christmas stuff at all?

Exactly!!., Pointless thread in my opinion. They own brand Christmas Pudding says "Christmas Pudding" and they have other own branded products with the word Christmas on them.

Time to close this thread. Tesco is not denying anything.

Tomtata

mealone wrote: »

Heard an advertisement last night and today from Tesco and during that advert they do not use the word Christmas but December 25 and "that time of the year" Well I have now stopped using Tesco and am urging all my friends to do likewise. Their attempt to play up to newcomers to Ireland who are non Christians is disgraceful. If I go to a Muslim country, I must obey their rules. So to Mr. Tesco, this is a Christian country and we celebrate Christmas, you know, the time of the year that Christians celebrate the birth of Christ and also where you make your fortunes . So Dunne's who are not afraid to use the word Christmas get all my business this year and every other year. I appeal to all to boycott Tesco and encourage others to do likewise and like I did to email them in protest.

What a total nonsensical argument,

"If I go to a Muslim country, I must obey their rules"

What rules are there in Ireland to call a Holiday by its name?

Ireland is a secular state not a Christian one.

If Tesco decides to advertise their products without using a Holiday name more power to them - How people get offended by this is beyond me.

I can’t stand Tesco’s at the best of times but playing the religion card to boycott them is rather low.

wolfsbane

Ghost Buster wrote: »

So Tescos, by not mentioning Christmas due to media rules have banned Christmas hey. Thats one powerful shop!!!

Here's how to do it:
Christmas abolished!
http://www.olivercromwell.org/faqs4.htm

Fanny Cradock

Tomtata wrote: »

Ireland is a secular state not a Christian one.

We have been over this already. It's not a secular State.

Onesimus

Let me guess, Tescos dont mind advertising Santa claus a false made up gimmick that parents brainwash their children with and then watch them sprawl the ground with anger and tears when they are old enough to be told he isnt real?

Its all marketing nonsense, tescos just wanna make money and they will use any fictional character or override any obstacle they feel gets in their greedy way of making it!!! I wont be taking my business there anymore. Besides I never actually do, their trolleys are horrendously wobbly and out of control, I think they are still the trolleys from the 80's and have never been changed. :eek:

Zombrex

Onesimus wrote: »

they will use any fictional character

No not in this case, they aren't using Jesus to sell stuff


Sorry, couldn't resist :pac:

Edgedinblue

Onesimus wrote: »

Let me guess, Tescos dont mind advertising Santa claus a false made up gimmick that parents brainwash their children with and then watch them sprawl the ground with anger and tears when they are old enough to be told he isnt real?

Its all marketing nonsense, tescos just wanna make money and they will use any fictional character or override any obstacle they feel gets in their greedy way of making it!!! I wont be taking my business there anymore. Besides I never actually do, their trolleys are horrendously wobbly and out of control, I think they are still the trolleys from the 80's and have never been changed. :eek:

Firstly Santa isnt actually made up. http://powertochange.com/culture/stnick/

Secondly, does that little rant on marketing nonsense mean you'll never be shopping ever again, in any shop?! because EVERY shop in this country uses the same marketing stuff as Tesco! :rolleyes: theres a santa in every shop window!