How's our driving? (Feedback for the forum)

liah

Hellrazer wrote: »

Which posts Liah--Youre definately not on ignore.

My last I think three or four posts before the last two..

Discodog

Anyone who has doubts about this forum should look at the Help ASAP thread. Loads of excellent advice & a very happy OP who says

"I can't thank everyone enough for all their support. My boyfriend and I use this board as our crutch to keep us going - thank you;)"

Yes they are talking about their dog & not their relationship

Enough to melt even Hellrazer's heart

Calhoun

Discodog wrote: »

Anyone who has doubts about this forum should look at the Help ASAP thread. Loads of excellent advice & a very happy OP who says

"I can't thank everyone enough for all their support. My boyfriend and I use this board as our crutch to keep us going - thank you;)"

Yes they are talking about their dog & not their relationship

Enough to melt even Hellrazer's heart

Thats exactly the point i can't speak for everyone but the reason i have voiced my opinion is that i see how valuable this forum is and it can really make a difference . I would not like to see all that goodwork gone because of a few bad apples.

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

Anyone who has doubts about this forum should look at the Help ASAP thread. Loads of excellent advice & a very happy OP who says

Agreed that thread and the other one I mentioned earlier are prime examples of how the forum should operate.

Enough to melt even Hellrazer's heart

There you go again--assuming Im the bad guy.
Far from it.Im just trying to make the forum welcoming for new users.

At the minute the mods are reviewing this whole thread,deciding on the points that were made by everyone and are going to create a new thread for suggestions only on how to resolve these issues.

I have a few ideas in mind that should make all users happy.

IvySlayer

This thread has a few things which annoy me.

There's a lot of handbags being thrown because the guy admitted he hit his dog, which is understandable considering the dog just bit him. People just lose their cool and he knows he was wrong, but we have people all high and mighty and judgemental.

wopper10

The only thing I dislike is the fact that dog trainers can't be discussed. It is only fair that people get to give their opinion on particular ones good or bad. Its also fair that when people come on looking for peoples opinions on certain trainers that they should be able to get them so they can make an informed decision they can't always trust the trainer, their website or the references they give if any.

Cherry Blossom

IvySlayer wrote: »

This thread has a few things which annoy me.

There's a lot of handbags being thrown because the guy admitted he hit his dog, which is understandable considering the dog just bit him. People just lose their cool and he knows he was wrong, but we have people all high and mighty and judgemental.

I've reported most of that thread

Zapperzy

Well the dog bit me thread is a brilliant example of an out of control mess, thought the forum was having a little bit of a turn around lately but it seems not.

If there is a FAQ thread being made could it have a section on why dominance based training is generally wrong, seems to be a lot of posters lately recommending dominating dogs and people thinking their dogs are being dominant.

shinikins

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I've reported most of that thread

And well done too, i've only just read it myself, and i have to say its a crying shame that you have to wait 60 seconds between reporting posts as i would have most of them reported by now.

Having read the first post a few times i think the OP just used a colloquialism, but everyone is just too damn quick to jump on the keyboard to condemn. Just because he used the word "punch" doesn't mean he actually punched the dog!

So it's back to square one again. Mods, i know it's possible on vBulletin to force a user to read certain threads and announcements before proceeding to the rest of the forum, perhaps it may be wise to make a warning announcement warning all users to play nice and use this facility.

Cherry Blossom

shinikins wrote: »

And well done too, i've only just read it myself, and i have to say its a crying shame that you have to wait 60 seconds between reporting posts as i would have most of them reported by now.

I didn't report individual posts as I hadn't a clue where to start so I just picked one and said I wanted to report most of the thread. I think another problem that exists is that there seems to be no mods on here over the weekend for the most part. It seems to be over the weekends that all hell breaks loose!

Hellrazer

IvySlayer wrote: »

This thread has a few things which annoy me.

There's a lot of handbags being thrown because the guy admitted he hit his dog, which is understandable considering the dog just bit him. People just lose their cool and he knows he was wrong, but we have people all high and mighty and judgemental.

Agreed.I was away last night otherwise I would have acted sooner.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I've reported most of that thread

Thanks for that adrenalinejunkie.I should really say that if you lot report a post and cant see anything being done pop me a pm--Obviously at 4.00 am Im not going to repll though.

Zapperzy wrote: »

Well the dog bit me thread is a brilliant example of an out of control mess, thought the forum was having a little bit of a turn around lately but it seems not.

I thought the same.Feel let down now after that thread.

If there is a FAQ thread being made could it have a section on why dominance based training is generally wrong, seems to be a lot of posters lately recommending dominating dogs and people thinking their dogs are being dominant.

Its coming.

shinikins wrote: »

Having read the first post a few times i think the OP just used a colloquialism, but everyone is just too damn quick to jump on the keyboard to condemn. Just because he used the word "punch" doesn't mean he actually punched the dog!

Thats the way I read it aswell.I dont think he kicked the dog up and down the road.All dog owners have been there including myself.Its very hard to control yourself when you have a dog latched on and blood pouring from you.

So it's back to square one again.

Yep unfortunately.

Mods, i know it's possible on vBulletin to force a user to read certain threads and announcements before proceeding to the rest of the forum, perhaps it may be wise to make a warning announcement warning all users to play nice and use this facility.

Nope.But I think from here on in Im going to start punishing every single breaking of the rules.Might be the only way some people will get the idea.
Maybe a week or two break for rulebreakers from the forum will fix the problem.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I didn't report individual posts as I hadn't a clue where to start so I just picked one and said I wanted to report most of the thread. I think another problem that exists is that there seems to be no mods on here over the weekend for the most part. It seems to be over the weekends that all hell breaks loose!

Hellrazer

Ok Im posting this idea up that came up from this thread.
Its one idea out of a few that came up from this thread.Can I have some feedback on this?Also the only way this will work is if posts are reported.

I suggest that we add the following to the rules.
1.No more condescending posts-we all try to play nice.
2.Because its a problem with the "tone" of posts or perception of being bullied that seems to frighten people away why dont we do the following.

If a post or user is reported we base our decision on whether to take action on the number of times its reported.
With the case of a post we go on the following.With the case of a user we base it on a specific time frame lets say 30 days.

Just once-No action.
Twice-A warning on thread or an edit of the post.
Three times--Yellow card
Four times-Red card
Five times--One week ban
Six times--Month long ban.
Any more than that and its a permanent ban.

So for example a users gets a single post reported 5 times its an instant week long ban.
If a user gets 5 individual posts reported over a 30 day period thats also a week long ban.

Im suggesting this because lets say one user replies to a post for example the pug for xmas one.Maybe only one person disagrees(maybe just the OP) with the post then it will go unpunished as its only one opinion under this method.If 2 or more people disagree its a higer punishment.B

Since a user can report a post more once then its the opinion of 2 or more individual people and so on that is the determining factor.

Its also a graded way of punishing repeat offenders and we cannot be seen as being too harsh or quick to judge.Also it shows that its not based solely on a mods opinion but on the rest of the forum users` opinion.

Now this might sound a bit rigid so obviously a mod can jump in and issue a punishment for a serious breach of the rules at any time.
Also this will be watched closely to stop users reporting someone just because they dont like that person and is deliberately trying to get them banned.In a case like this it will be at the mods discretion on whether to take action or not.

shinikins

"Because a user can only report a post once then its the opinion of 2 people and so on that is the determining factor"

Just wanted to make you aware that a post can be reported a second time by any user via their mobile fone. This may be abused by more unscrupulous types if the above quote is put into action.

Hellrazer

shinikins wrote: »

"Because a user can only report a post once then its the opinion of 2 people and so on that is the determining factor"

Just wanted to make you aware that a post can be reported a second time by any user via their mobile fone. This may be abused by more unscrupulous types if the above quote is put into action.

Thanks for that Shinikins.I see that a post can be reported more than once by the same person.

Quick edit time

Since a user can report a post more once then its the opinion of 2 or more individual people and so on that is the determining factor.

Does this make it fairer^^^
I think it does.

shinikins

"Quick edit time "

Lol I'm like a ninja!!

Definitely clearer thank you!

Discodog

I think that such a system could be very unfair & could easily end up with people maliciously reporting to get someone banned. The Mods would have to agree that each report is justified.

That thread included remarks like "an almighty slap" & "5 or 6 times".
The charter says: "No discussing illegal activities, animal cruelty"
Both of the above are cruelty & would be prosecuted if seen.

Maybe it needs to be stressed that this forum does not support or endorse cruelty & maybe cruelty needs to be defined. It means "unnecessary suffering" so that can include keeping your dog out on a freezing night, using a pinch/pronged collar, & repeatedly hitting a dog.

If people see or read of cruelty then it is likely that they will react in an emotional way - it's human nature. In the thread did posters report those who endorsed cruelty ?

The problem with all the snipping is we do not get to see what was snipped. We also do not know what aspects were reported & what action was taken in reprimanding the offensive posters.

In the interests of fairness, openness, & to provide an example it would be good to see the procedure in operation. No matter what rules you put in place you have to take into account the provocative nature of any post. If the discussion of cruelty is banned then some of the "I hit my dog" comments are flaming. Personally I would like such posts to continue as good advice might prevent the dog being hit again but perhaps a poster should be warned that they may get adverse replies.

Hellrazer: I do not think that you are the bad guy which is why I added the wink. But it does sometimes appear that we are using sledgehammers to crack nuts. If someone posts something wrong then leave it on thread, highlight it & state the punishment. That's what happens on most forums & it works. If someone disagrees with your action then allow them to initially come here to discuss it along with other members.

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

I think that such a system could be very unfair & could easily end up with people maliciously reporting to get someone banned. The Mods would have to agree that each report is justified.

Explain this.It is based solely on individual reports by individual users.So if someone wants to get somone banned then they`d have to get a minimum of 5 other users involved with trying to get the person banned.

That thread included remarks like "an almighty slap" & "5 or 6 times".
The charter says: "No discussing illegal activities, animal cruelty"
Both of the above are cruelty & would be prosecuted if seen.

Agreed-thats why I deleted the stuff about slapping.

Maybe it needs to be stressed that this forum does not support or endorse cruelty & maybe cruelty needs to be defined. It means "unnecessary suffering" so that can include keeping your dog out on a freezing night, using a pinch/pronged collar, & repeatedly hitting a dog.

The forum doesnt support or endorse cruelty-In the context of that thread I understand where the OP was coming from.

If people see or read of cruelty then it is likely that they will react in an emotional way - it's human nature. In the thread did posters report those who endorsed cruelty ?

Yep.

The problem with all the snipping is we do not get to see what was snipped. We also do not know what aspects were reported & what action was taken in reprimanding the offensive posters.

The choice was to delete the thread as a whole or edit it.I choose to edit it.

In the interests of fairness, openness, & to provide an example it would be good to see the procedure in operation. No matter what rules you put in place you have to take into account the provocative nature of any post.

No it wont but something has to be done to stop these threads descending into chaos.

If the discussion of cruelty is banned then some of the "I hit my dog" comments are flaming. Personally I would like such posts to continue as good advice might prevent the dog being hit again but perhaps a poster should be warned that they may get adverse replies.

So youre saying leave the "hitting" comments on thread??I`d have no problem in doing that if some users were mature enough to discuss the issue without resorting to what happened in that thread last night.
See again Im on the same hymn sheet as you but until users can be mature enough to act that way then we as mods have to remove/delete/edit threads so as to stop this ridiculous behaviour

Hellrazer: I do not think that you are the bad guy which is why I added the wink. But it does sometimes appear that we are using sledgehammers to crack nuts.

Ok you tell me how you would deal with.
You try mod here for a week and I guarantee you,you`ll be pulling your hair out in no time.

If someone posts something wrong then leave it on thread, highlight it & state the punishment. That's what happens on most forums & it works.

See thats the way its supposed to work but for some reason even after a warning on thread there are always a couple of people that just keep going.

Im willing to give it a go though.From today for one week I wont remove anything that starts to bring a thread into chaos.What I will do is issue a warning on thread or a yellow/red card/ban.Im going to base this solely on what other users report.

If someone disagrees with your action then allow them to initially come here to discuss it along with other members.

Ok fair enough.But just remember Im basing this on what other users report and not on my opinion.So if a thread starts lets say like the one last night--Im going to punish every single reported post.

For off-topic posting,back seat modding,sniping comments,personal abuse,percieved bullying.How does that sound?

Cherry Blossom

Hellrazer wrote: »

Im willing to give it a go though.From today for one week I wont remove anything that starts to bring a thread into chaos.What I will do is issue a warning on thread or a yellow/red card/ban.Im going to base this solely on what other users report.

Ok fair enough.But just remember Im basing this on what other users report and not on my opinion.So if a thread starts lets say like the one last night--Im going to punish every single reported post.

For off-topic posting,back seat modding,sniping comments,personal abuse,percieved bullying.How does that sound?

Sounds great to me!

homerhop

Might be worth your while putting up a notice in the main forum that you are going to do this. Some folks may not be reading this thread

ISDW

The problem with this that I can see is that if people are willing to go onto other sites, as has been mentioned on this thread, and talk about posters from here, and be very nasty about them, then I can very easily see them all reporting a post or posts to get that poster banned.

Discodog

Hellrazer wrote: »

Im willing to give it a go though.From today for one week I wont remove anything that starts to bring a thread into chaos.What I will do is issue a warning on thread or a yellow/red card/ban.Im going to base this solely on what other users report.
Ok fair enough.But just remember Im basing this on what other users report and not on my opinion.So if a thread starts lets say like the one last night--Im going to punish every single reported post.

For off-topic posting,back seat modding,sniping comments,personal abuse,percieved bullying.How does that sound?

Sounds fine to me. Just use discretion. Issue a warning to the offending poster first, if they repeat then yellow, red or ban. By issuing a warning you get around the problem of people not knowing about the changes.

Don't base it solely on reports but use your discretion as to whether the report is justified & comment on thread in either case. This way the reporter & the reported know what is going on & we can all learn from the example.

Yes modding here can be difficult so spread the load which will also help the Mods in striking the right balance. Don't try to influence other Mods, no I am not saying that you are, but allow each one to interpret posts as they see fit. This way we all learn.

liger

I always found it strange that Animals & pets are listed under Rec rather than Soc. For most people their pets are part of life and not just a hobby.

liah

ISDW wrote: »

The problem with this that I can see is that if people are willing to go onto other sites, as has been mentioned on this thread, and talk about posters from here, and be very nasty about them, then I can very easily see them all reporting a post or posts to get that poster banned.

In fairness though the Mods should be able to pick up on that after the first one or two goes. It may work once, or even twice, but once they realize it's the same group of people consistently doing it they should be able to take action.

Discodog

ISDW wrote: »

The problem with this that I can see is that if people are willing to go onto other sites, as has been mentioned on this thread, and talk about posters from here, and be very nasty about them, then I can very easily see them all reporting a post or posts to get that poster banned.

Exactly especially with issues that condense opinion into groups like the Hunting Ban, Dog Breeding etc.

Hellrazer is trying to be democratic which is good but Mods are here for a reason - someone has to be the Judge. If I were modding, which I have done & would not do here, then I would only intervene if I felt that it was absolutely necessary. If a post was reported I would put next to it the number of reports received & a short reason. I would add the words agree or disagree & a warning if appropriate. If the offender re-offended they would see the words "final warning". I would then welcome the offender coming here for a more detailed explanation.

I would also pick a time when another Mod was available & hand over to them totally, including reported posts, for a period of time to see if they handled the situation differently & whether the result was better or not.

I don't think that Modding can be democratic but it should be perceived by the majority as open & fair.

Discodog

liger wrote: »

I always found it strange that Animals & pets are listed under Rec rather than Soc. For most people their pets are part of life and not just a hobby.

For many of us our Pets are our lives

shinikins

Back on the laptop, Android is win, but you can't beat the keyboard!


In fairness i think a lot of the suggestions that Hellrazer has made are already in place in regards to modding, and he's just clarifying them for us lowly plebs! Its always been at the Mods discretion as to how to interpret a reported post, i think what has been suggested will just educate all of us as to how they come to their decisions. He's just making the whole process more transparent in an attempt to educate(correct me if i'm wrong!!)

If the discussion of cruelty is banned then some of the "I hit my dog" comments are flaming. Personally I would like such posts to continue as good advice might prevent the dog being hit again but perhaps a poster should be warned that they may get adverse replies.

Although i can see where your coming from with this Discodog, i think in the wider scheme, it may not work. There are always those who will persist in goading and trolling, so leaving posts intact with a warning attached may not work, we will see either way by the end of the week

..it does sometimes appear that we are using sledgehammers to crack nuts.

Sometimes they're hard nuts to crack!!

scudzilla

Hellrazer wrote: »

Ok Im posting this idea up that came up from this thread.
Its one idea out of a few that came up from this thread.Can I have some feedback on this?Also the only way this will work is if posts are reported.

I suggest that we add the following to the rules.
1.No more condescending posts-we all try to play nice.
2.Because its a problem with the "tone" of posts or perception of being bullied that seems to frighten people away why dont we do the following.

If a post or user is reported we base our decision on whether to take action on the number of times its reported.
With the case of a post we go on the following.With the case of a user we base it on a specific time frame lets say 30 days.

Just once-No action.
Twice-A warning on thread or an edit of the post.
Three times--Yellow card
Four times-Red card
Five times--One week ban
Six times--Month long ban.
Any more than that and its a permanent ban.

So for example a users gets a single post reported 5 times its an instant week long ban.
If a user gets 5 individual posts reported over a 30 day period thats also a week long ban.

Im suggesting this because lets say one user replies to a post for example the pug for xmas one.Maybe only one person disagrees(maybe just the OP) with the post then it will go unpunished as its only one opinion under this method.If 2 or more people disagree its a higer punishment.B

Since a user can report a post more once then its the opinion of 2 or more individual people and so on that is the determining factor.

Its also a graded way of punishing repeat offenders and we cannot be seen as being too harsh or quick to judge.Also it shows that its not based solely on a mods opinion but on the rest of the forum users` opinion.

Now this might sound a bit rigid so obviously a mod can jump in and issue a punishment for a serious breach of the rules at any time.
Also this will be watched closely to stop users reporting someone just because they dont like that person and is deliberately trying to get them banned.In a case like this it will be at the mods discretion on whether to take action or not.

Are you seriously considering doing this??

So if i make a post like i did yesterday, my dog bit me 10 yrs aho and i gave it an almighty slap, it never did it again, that's NOT animal cruelty, that is the way i and many others would act in such a situation. So if 6 people get on there high horse and report that post then i am banned for a month??

That's what we have moderators for, to run the forum, not leave it in the hands of everybody else.

IMO, from what you're saying here, and what you're suggesting, it seems that the Moderators are incapable of doing the job and are passing the buck onto forum users, if that's the case then they should report the problem to Admin, step aside and let others take over.

The soccer forum is well modded and probably one of the most dificult forums to mod here, yet they seem to be doing fine and haven't resorted to this

Cherry Blossom

scudzilla wrote: »

Are you seriously considering doing this??

So if i make a post like i did yesterday, my dog bit me 10 yrs aho and i gave it an almighty slap, it never did it again, that's NOT animal cruelty, that is the way i and many others would act in such a situation. So if 6 people get on there high horse and report that post then i am banned for a month??

I'm not going to get into a debate about whether it is animal cruelty or not, I will point out that animal welfare legislation has changed since 10 years ago. Whether it is cruelty or not, it promotes animal cruelty. Some idiot who likes to knock 7 bells out of his dog for kicks comes along and reads that and uses it to justify what he does as it appears to him that it's perfectly normal to do so.

If a dog bites you, you have done something wrong somewhere along the line to start with. It is now widely accepted that it is wrong to use corporal punishent on children, pets or anything else. OP comes on looking for help with his dog and is told that he was right in what he did, clearly if he was he wouldn't need to come on to a public forum asking for help. The other issue is the fact that the handful of posts that were anyway relevent or helpful at all were completely lost amongst the 5 pages of bickering and absolute drivel that ensued. Of course all who contributed to it should be made accountable for it!

scudzilla wrote: »

The soccer forum is well modded and probably one of the most dificult forums to mod here, yet they seem to be doing fine and haven't resorted to this

Your comparing animal welfare to soccer?! The lives of living creatures does not compare to a bunch of people kicking around a leather ball for recreational purposes in my book.

Hellrazer

scudzilla wrote: »

Are you seriously considering doing this??

No its an idea.What Ive agreed to do is take Discdog idea on board and not delete bad posts so to speak.Rather warn/yellow card/red card and give my reasons on thread.But I will be using the reported posts to help me.So Im asking that users report anything they feel should be reported.

So if i make a post like i did yesterday, my dog bit me 10 yrs aho and i gave it an almighty slap, it never did it again, that's NOT animal cruelty, that is the way i and many others would act in such a situation. So if 6 people get on there high horse and report that post then i am banned for a month??

No because the mods still make the decision at the end of the day.And I agreed with you that we`ve all done it.

That's what we have moderators for, to run the forum, not leave it in the hands of everybody else.

IMO, from what you're saying here, and what you're suggesting, it seems that the Moderators are incapable of doing the job and are passing the buck onto forum users, if that's the case then they should report the problem to Admin, step aside and let others take over.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

What Im trying to achieve is a way thats fair to all and Im all in favour of trying anything at this stage.

The soccer forum is well modded and probably one of the most dificult forums to mod here, yet they seem to be doing fine and haven't resorted to this

I dont post there but what I do notice is that there are 6 mods there.Maybe thats all we need-more mods.

portgirl123

Where is the report button?