How's our driving? (Feedback for the forum)

Calhoun

Whispered wrote: »

If people can't post their opinion without being told to "answer the damn question" and that is not a "dick measuring competition" then the forum is damned to be honest. Nobody is going to want to post their opinion for fear of being labelled a bully - which is a really horrible thing to say and should not be allowed imo - surely if the post can be seen as bullying it should be reported instead of commented on?

There are people who rarely post except to comment on others posts - it really is ridiculous and is ruining every discussion on the forum just as much as the agressive "what do you know" type posting.

I have posted on this already but ill say it again, its all down to the delivery of your opinion. Anyone on this forum who wants to get their message across needs to think about how they are going to take the other posters with them.

If i responded to a post on any forum and was being condescending no matter how good my intentions i would get peoples back up and my message would be lost. In a forum like animal & pet issues the community needs to be really mindful of how it posts.

You may think well "why should i" these people asked for advice and i'm giving it my way. Well my logic is that anyone who posts in this forum regular and is an advocate of animal welfare really cares and wants to change opinion on how to treat and look after animals. You cannot do that if you dont soften your approach, saying all that there is a time and a place when you need a hard line but that seems to be the norm instead of the exception.

I don't think this forum is damned to be honest i think what the mods are doing is a more long term approach to make it more accessible to new people and to educate.

Whispered

Calhoun wrote: »

I have posted on this already but ill say it again, its all down to the delivery of your opinion. Anyone on this forum who wants to get their message across needs to think about how they are going to take the other posters with them.

If i responded to a post on any forum and was being condescending no matter how good my intentions i would get peoples back up and my message would be lost. In a forum like animal & pet issues the community needs to be really mindful of how it posts.

You may think well "why should i" these people asked for advice and i'm giving it my way. Well my logic is that anyone who posts in this forum regular and is an advocate of animal welfare really cares and wants to change opinion on how to treat and look after animals. You cannot do that if you dont soften your approach, saying all that there is a time and a place when you need a hard line but that seems to be the norm instead of the exception.

I don't think this forum is damned to be honest i think what the mods are doing is a more long term approach to make it more accessible to new people and to educate.

I absolutely agree - people need to be careful as to how their opinions are expressed. There is no need for agressive hateful posting from anybody. It's counterproductive and ruins many threads.

liah

Whispered wrote: »

Thats the thing Liah - in certain threads (not that particular one btw but in some) I can see your point - I just think your way of making a point is doing exactly what you are complaining about.

Really your negating your own argument.

You agree with the info given - that the op is unlikely to find a reputable breeder at christmas right? What you are complaining about is HOW people said it - am I still right? Well by your last line you're basicially saying the same thing about your own point?

You're not disagreeing with the info - your disagreeing with how it was said. I'm doing the same.

I feel that lately in the forum people cannot give an opinion on anything without one or two people derailing the thread to complain about the opinions given. It's getting to the point that less people will want to post to try help an OP for fear of being labelled a bully. I don't know how the mods can deal with it but something needs to be done.

Maybe have it so that you cannot comment on a posting style but must report the post if you feel it's bullying? Otherwise every thread will become a write off - just like the puppy for christmas one. Which would be a real shame.

I'm not arguing with you liah - I agree with you that something needs to be done about agressive posting - but in trying to do something about it you have become part of the problem. Like trying to fight fire with fire.

Im not going to comment on this again as I feel its going nowhere.

No, I'm making an example.

It is making you feel distanced and defensive, isn't it?

If the way I'm posting makes you feel distanced and defensive and doesn't make you want to read my content, then you get my point, you're just unwilling to recognize it.

What I'm doing to the people I'm talking about is exactly what the people I'm talking about are doing to people who have done absolutely nothing to deserve it.

I'm treating the condescending buggers with condescending buggery because it's the only way to communicate with them. I've tried being reasonable and measured and civil before, but frankly, just spitting it all out with no bull**** gets to the core an awful lot quicker so I'm going to use that method from now on.

The thing is, I'm being condescending and aggressive based on evidence and what I've seen from this forum time and time again.

The people I'm complaining about do it with no provocation at all with no backing evidence and for no good reason.

Whispered

liah wrote: »

No, I'm making an example.

It is making you feel distanced and defensive, isn't it?

If the way I'm posting makes you feel distanced and defensive and doesn't make you want to read my content, then you get my point, you're just unwilling to recognize it.

What I'm doing to the people I'm talking about is exactly what the people I'm talking about are doing to people who have done absolutely nothing to deserve it.

I'm treating the condescending buggers with condescending buggery because it's the only way to communicate with them. I've tried being reasonable and measured and civil before, but frankly, just spitting it all out with no bull**** gets to the core an awful lot quicker so I'm going to use that method from now on.

The thing is, I'm being condescending and aggressive based on evidence and what I've seen from this forum time and time again.

The people I'm complaining about do it with no provocation at all with no backing evidence and for no good reason.

You just quoted me recognising your point - the accused me of not being willing to recognise it.

We will have to agree to disagree I think because you just seem to be reading negative into my posts when in fact at the core I agree with you to an extent. As I have said a few times.

I spend a lot of time in the forum, it has been a great help to me with my cats and my dog. I have made friends through the forum. I genuinely care about what direction it takes. While I agree that agressive off topic posting should not be allowed - I also completly disagree with not being able to give an opinion for fear of being called a bully.

I disagree that a poster feels the right to so belittle another poster - both with condescending posts and assumptions and with hateful language and tone, agressive posting styles and arguements - that posters feel the need to leave the forum.

It would be a shame. And to be honest at this stage both "sides" are as bad as each other and doing as much damage to threads.

Discodog

liah wrote: »

In "Do you know where I can find a reputable Pug breeder around Christmas?" there is nothing at all to indicate the pup will be mistreated or uncared for. Not a single iota of evidence.

Except that thousands of people do mistreat Christmas pups. That would be deemed a mass of circumstantial evidence. Again look through the thread & you will see that only one person mentioned this. The rest offered advice & are being condemned for doing so.

I freely admitted that with this topic & others there can be a natural reaction to assume the worst. That may not be "correct" but it is hard for people who have had to deal with the fallout not to err on the side of cynicism.

We simple cannot constantly treat posters as if they are hyper sensitive. The rule is comment on the post & not the poster. Looking at the thread most people have done this.

liah

Discodog wrote: »

Except that thousands of people do mistreat Christmas pups. That would be deemed a mass of circumstantial evidence. Again look through the thread & you will see that only one person mentioned this. The rest offered advice & are being condemned for doing so.

I freely admitted that with this topic & others there can be a natural reaction to assume the worst. That may not be "correct" but it is hard for people who have had to deal with the fallout not to err on the side of cynicism.

We simple cannot constantly treat posters as if they are hyper sensitive. The rule is comment on the post & not the poster. Looking at the thread most people have done this.

So you are agreeing that you operate on "guilty til proven innocent," yes?

Yeah, a lot of the homes Christmas pups go to aren't good ones. But those are also not likely to be the homes that go to an internet messageboard looking for advice on where to find reputable breeders.

I mean, come on! I could understand it if there was EVIDENCE to suggest the dog would be mistreated. But there was none. None at all. In fact, I'd be willing to bet a pup would be just as happy as Larry in that house overall.

But at least now I know for sure it's "guilty until proven innocent." Screw that tbh.

Discodog

liah wrote: »

So you are agreeing that you operate on "guilty til proven innocent," yes?

You keep doing the thing that you condemn me & others of doing - assuming !

I did not say that, I said

"I freely admitted that with this topic & others there can be a natural reaction to assume the worst."

I do not assume & did not in this thread. I just pointed as has been said time & time again to some deaf ears that no responsible breeder will have Christmas pups.

Take a look at the Spay thread. Lots of reasoned argument from the same people that you condemn here.

This forum does not just attract responsible owners - some of the recent posts would reveal that. I welcome all posts even if they oppose animal welfare as we achieve nothing without discussion.

The OP in this thread may of gone away or may still be reading. There are thousands of info sites or ask a question sites. Maybe this forum will become yet another.

I agree with Calhoun except for the Mod bit & that is only because we seem to be getting some conflicting messages. Take a look at the other Pet forums & you will see that none are this bad despite a lot of quite aggressive posting.

When someone has just come in from clearing kennel loads of dog pooh & dealing with mindless people who leave dogs on their doorstep - I think that we should be able to cut them a bit of slack if they appear offhand. Especially when they take the time to try & help.

Cherry Blossom

Liah I just have to say that having just read all your posts on both threads, I remember agreeing with some points you have made but I can't for the life of me remember much of them. All I remember is you repeating yourself and swear words. You have a problem with how some people are contributing in the wording of their posts. I appologise and correct me if I am wrong but I don't recall you posting in this forum other than to criticise how other people are posting. If you have a problem with how people are answering threads, why not start contributing something to some of the threads on here and answer the questions how you feel is correct. It would be more constructive than lurking waiting on people to post something so you can jump on the vigilante band-wagon of non-contributors. I have on occasion become exhasperated by posters not listenening or bothering to read the answers given to them, eg. a recent dog food thread where a few posters recommended hypoallergenic dog-food for a dog with digestive upset. A few people gave some examples and the OP continued with what about this brand or that brand (none of which where hypoallergenic) and finished with their last post of 'what would you recommend then?' :rolleyes:

liah

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Liah I just have to say that having just read all your posts on both threads, I remember agreeing with some points you have made but I can't for the life of me remember much of them. All I remember is you repeating yourself and swear words. You have a problem with how some people are contributing in the wording of their posts. I appologise and correct me if I am wrong but I don't recall you posting in this forum other than to criticise how other people are posting. If you have a problem with how people are answering threads, why not start contributing something to some of the threads on here and answer the questions how you feel is correct. It would be more constructive than lurking waiting on people to post something so you can jump on the vigilante band-wagon of non-contributors. I have on occasion become exhasperated by posters not listenening or bothering to read the answers given to them, eg. a recent dog food thread where a few posters recommended hypoallergenic dog-food for a dog with digestive upset. A few people gave some examples and the OP continued with what about this brand or that brand (none of which where hypoallergenic) and finished with their last post of 'what would you recommend then?' :rolleyes:

I used to post and contribute on this forum, but the attitude got to me and I just couldn't be bothered anymore. I stopped posting but continued to follow because I love animals and like reading some of the topics that come up. The problem was even that wasn't enjoyable anymore because it was just watching people getting talked down to.

I've already explained why I'm being aggressive-- I've been passive for so long, I've tried to be polite about it in the past but it got nowhere, and the frustration has reached a breaking point. If all you choose to see are swear words, fine, that's your problem, not mine. My point stands the way it stands regardless of the language it's dressed up in.

Whispered

I don't see why you've taken it on yourself to try "fix" the forum. This thread was created so that we can discuss, like adults, the problems of the forum. We don't need someone who has decided it is up to them to put everyone in their place.

I've been passive for too long.

Everybody recognises that improvements need to be made - that is why this thread is here.

Zapperzy

This 'anti-hate' brigade is getting ridiculous, people are saying thats posters are scared to post questions for fear of getting bullied, well other posters are scared to post answers for fear of being called a bully. I have even noticed that there are people who rarely post advice and answer questions themselves yet seem to hang around and wait to pounce on the regular posters accusing them of bullying. I have also noticed that a number of our regular posters who are a gold mine for advice and have years and years of experience are no longer posting anything because they themselves are being bullied.

I think the reason for this is our regular posters have spent enough time on forums and in real life working in something animal welfare related that they are sick and tired of the same issues cropping up and go on to point out what may or may not be an issue (like the christmas puppy thread, people who have worked in or with a rescue will know just how bad the christmas puppy issue actually is). Some of the less regular posters are just pet owners (Do not take offense by this as none is intended, I just couldn't firgure out another way to word it ) who just don't understand or realise how some issues are a major problem.

liah- you keep saying that the OP of that thread was looking for a reputable breeder. Everyone's idea of a reputable or un-reputable breeder is very very different, to some a reputable breeder is one who health tests, shows their dogs and rarely breeds a litter and has a waiting list as long as their arm when they do, to others it's just someone who keeps their dogs inside the house and treats them like a pet, they may not realise that there is such a thing as health tests and thinks that show dogs are just for people who want to prance around a ring. So I see it as no harm if people point out what exactly what a reputable breeder is (not having litters around christmas, health testing parents because pugs are so prone to health problems etc.)

I really don't know what the answer to all this is, but it's certainly not de-railing every thread and calling everyone who is giving good honest advice a bully. Maybe some people are a bit aggressive with their posts but in my opinion some people are too sensitive, the world of animal welfare is not a pretty place where it smells of roses and puppys it is a cruel and dark world where nothing is ideal and I think it's asking too much to expect this forum not to reflect that.

Cherry Blossom

liah wrote: »

If all you choose to see are swear words, fine, that's your problem, not mine. My point stands the way it stands regardless of the language it's dressed up in.

No, I did see valid points but the swear words make them less memorable. I understand how you became exasperated, this is also the case with many of the posters whose posts you see as being clouded by being condescending. I get exasperated myself with some threads on here, sometimes it feels that once you have contributed and your post is dismissed or ignored because it's not what people want to hear whether it be good or bad advice or otherwise it is extrememely infuriating especially in cases where people come on wanting to be told they are right and continue on in hope of 1 person agreeing with them so they can justify whatever mad thing it is they plan to do. I also find it difficult to restrain myself, sometimes I have to leave it and come back later and at a guess I would say the chances are that I fail at remaining restrained on occasion :rolleyes:. Nothing is going to be solved here though without finiding some middle ground.

liah

I haven't taken it upon myself to try and fix the forum. I'm entitled to my opinion the same as you're entitled to yours. I'm also not the only one who's brought this up, either.

builttospill

liah wrote: »

I used to post and contribute on this forum, but the attitude got to me and I just couldn't be bothered anymore. I stopped posting but continued to follow because I love animals and like reading some of the topics that come up. The problem was even that wasn't enjoyable anymore because it was just watching people getting talked down to.

I've already explained why I'm being aggressive-- I've been passive for so long, I've tried to be polite about it in the past but it got nowhere, and the frustration has reached a breaking point. If all you choose to see are swear words, fine, that's your problem, not mine. My point stands the way it stands regardless of the language it's dressed up in.

Again I would agree with this and it mirrors sentiments from one of my previous posts in this thread. I'll repeat what I said albeit a watered down version cos I'm sick of repeating myself,

I am also an avid reader of this forum but I rarely post cos of the moral piracy that ruins it for me. In fact the only time I have posted in the past is to stand up against this kind of behaviour. I have two amazing cats, a maine coon and a norwegian forest cat but I would never stick them up in the pet pictures thread cos I just don't belong and I don't feel like contributing because of said issues.

Now, someone can tell me that it's my perogative to do this but at the end of the day there are loads of people like me who are turned off by the constant chastising that takes place in this forum. I have talked to these people in person while others I have never met have pm'd me in agreement following my last few posts in this thread.

Whispered

liah wrote: »

I haven't taken it upon myself to try and fix the forum. I'm entitled to my opinion the same as you're entitled to yours. I'm also not the only one who's brought this up, either.

Of course you're not the only one- there is a whole discussion thread here about the forum. Discussion being the operative word.

Calhoun

Zapperzy wrote: »

This 'anti-hate' brigade is getting ridiculous, people are saying thats posters are scared to post questions for fear of getting bullied, well other posters are scared to post answers for fear of being called a bully. I have even noticed that there are people who rarely post advice and answer questions themselves yet seem to hang around and wait to pounce on the regular posters accusing them of bullying. I have also noticed that a number of our regular posters who are a gold mine for advice and have years and years of experience are no longer posting anything because they themselves are being bullied.

I think the reason for this is our regular posters have spent enough time on forums and in real life working in something animal welfare related that they are sick and tired of the same issues cropping up and go on to point out what may or may not be an issue (like the christmas puppy thread, people who have worked in or with a rescue will know just how bad the christmas puppy issue actually is). Some of the less regular posters are just pet owners (Do not take offense by this as none is intended, I just couldn't firgure out another way to word it ) who just don't understand or realise how some issues are a major problem.

These two paragraph's of your posts really have stuck out, first i agree that there is a risk of people being branded a bully which need to be kept under wraps but at the same time if there is smoke 9/10 there is fire, i would hope people would not just brand someone a bully for no reason.

If the regular animal welfare folk post in non confrontational way then there should be no issues or branding of bully. Which brings me on to your second point of these seasoned welfare folk that are "sick" of the same issues popping up again and again. It is commendable the work that these guys do but it doesn't elevate them above anyone or give any right for some of the posts that have been seen on boards, if they are sick of seeing the repeat issues ignore them or post when they are in a better mood.

Finally your last point on "regular" pet owners voicing an opinion on discussion items as has been repeatedly pointed out this is a discussion forum and everyone gets an opinion, how can we tell the experience of anyone on this forum? Do we only allow card carrying rescue folk post? Surely they can provide enough advice that would overshadow the lowly pet owners?

I think people of the forum need to remove the pedestals and start treating each other with respect, if they to quote the general rule of boards "don't be a dick" to each other we should have no problems

Miss Lockhart

It seems there's agreement from most people that the forum has some issues, but little agreement on how the issues can be resolved as well as some disagreement about what exactly those issues are.

I'm another person who rarely posts here - I probably have less than 30 posts here, despite being an animal lover, a pet owner and someone who works in animal welfare. Again, I am put off by the style, tone and content of many posts and threads. A few posters seem to be unable to keep their frustrations (undoubtedly entirely legitimate frustrations based on their difficult experiences in dealing with animal issues in this country) out of their posts.

It’s a pity, because there is lots of great information and discussion, but it just seems like too much hassle to get involved in a lot of stuff that goes on here. As a result I have tended to just post if I could give factual answers to a question, and have mostly avoided opinion-based discussion.

I wish I could offer more helpful suggestions on how things could be changed. Like others I am reluctant to report posts, so I’m basically guilty of letting things carry on the same way, unfortunately. For example, I remember a thread where a well respected, experienced, valuable poster discussed a named vet in very negative way, while other posters are regularly advised not to put boards at risk by doing this. I didn’t report this because I figured that I might be told that it was ok, considering who the poster was.

Some posters have pointed out that knowledgeable posters, with experience in dealing with animal issues, are put off the forum as their opinions and advice have been seen by some “ordinary” users as being preaching or patronising. This is a pity. I am also aware of equally experienced and knowledgeable people who avoid boards more so because of their reluctance be grouped with some of the preaching/aggressive welfare/rescue/general animal “industry” posters, or to get into public disagreements with them. This is also a pity.

Discodog

When you look at the Pug thread the first three posts were fine then Chris went off topic to say that the OP was inviting flaming. Then Saaron made the "not only for christmas bit" & used some capitals. Then, with respect, Liah leapt in like a Mod. The thread still carried on OK until Builtospill commented.

Personally I think that Hellrazers point that "The thread should have really ended with "a reputable breeder will not have pups over the xmas period" is too simplistic because the issue was raised early in the post regarding what constitutes a reputable breeder & the vulnerability of pugs to genetic disorders.

There must be a point where a partially off topic post, that raises a valid issue, becomes a topical part of the thread. Threads change all the time & evolve. I don't think that one can post a question & just expect a specific answer. Animal issues are rarely black or white & there will always be a difference of opinion. Surely that's why people come here to hear opinion from all sides.

Right now it seems like we all feel bullied. Maybe it would help if the helpers try to avoid being condescending & the others try to be a bit understanding before leaping down their throats. I made a post a while ago that another poster said "sounded a bit condescending " I agreed & apologised.

Just as there are ways of giving advice without lecturing there are also ways to point out possible offence without resorting to expletives & rants.

Seamus has been modding this forum really well. It would be good to hear his thoughts.

Maybe the Mods would of preferred if the thread had ended at the second post & then a new thread was started regarding the other Pug & Christmas issues but that seems unnecessary.

lrushe

Maybe I'm just blind here but I just don't see the bullying at all. I replied to the Christmas Puppy thread this morning, then left for a few hour and when I came back it had descended into chaos. Up until I left I thought the poster had gotten some really good information, not one did I find agressive or condesending. It was the kind of info I would have liked to have gotten if I were looking for a pup, straightforward, not frills information.
As I've said before I have had a lot of people disagree with my posts, in fact alot of what people here would find the norm in animal care ie. expensive dog foods, dogs sleeping indoors, early spaying etc. I either don't do or don't believe in. But you know what, I have valid reasons for my opinions and am up for discussing them with whoever wants to debate them.
In life you're not going to get everyone to agree, how boring would that be?
I do agree that posters shouldn't be attacked but disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't the same as attacking them, sometimes I think people mistake the two.

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

Seamus has been modding this forum really well. It would be good to hear his thoughts.

Heres my thoughts.
Ive already said this before and Im saying it again.

I agree 100 % with the animal welfare users whose main issue is the health and welfare of the animal in question.But what I dont agree with is the whole opinion ramming/lecturing that goes on in this forum.

Im not responding anymore to this thread until I have opinions from the other mods because I would like some of them to respond here and give their opinon on this issue.

Ive left a message in the mods forum asking the other moderators to respond on this thread.

Discodog

Could the other Mods comment here but also refer to the Pug thread as it is good to see an example rather than speaking in generalities. Thanks

Cherry Blossom

lrushe wrote: »

<snip
In life you're not going to get everyone to agree, how boring would that be?
I do agree that posters shouldn't be attacked but disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't the same as attacking them, sometimes I think people mistake the two.

Just today I got a lecture from my aunt who while in my house, announced that it's stupid buying expensive dog food and if my dog is getting sick on cheap stuff I should be feeding her more of it to 'make her get used to it'. I said that was nonsence and Westies are know to have food intollerances that can lead to liver disease, bloat, and tumors. I was told that was my problem and I should have got a mongral like her because they don't have health problems. To which I just said 'or they could inherit the problems of all breeds involved'. Her dog is a F1 lab/standard poodle cross crossed with a lab and looks like a wolfhound so both her and the 'breeder' came to the conclusion that the wrong dog somehow got to the bitch even though she was kept perfectly secure :rolleyes:. Again she told me I was talking rubbish when I told her that my dog would eat 3 times the amount of food if she was eating cheap food.I wouldn't mind but the reason she was in my house is because she'd ran out of dog food and wanted to rob some from me, clearly the cheap stuff is still too expensive :rolleyes:

So basically (without going any further off topic), yes it is real life and this forum reflects that. I suppose the other moral of the story is that some people are just going to make things up off the top of their head and no-one is going to convince them otherwise. I doubt very much I will find my aunt posting in a forum like this though and I think the people who do are at least somewhat open to the replies they get and it is therefore a chance to educate. It just needs to be done in the right way and its very hard not to get frustrated on occasion that you have a new poster with little knowledge giving them information which is completely off the mark because they are hanging around waiting for replys on a question they have posted themselves. I can certainly see why people feel they need to put that extra little bit of emphasis on factual information in cases like this.

Whispered

Calhoun wrote: »

These two paragraph's of your posts really have stuck out, first i agree that there is a risk of people being branded a bully which need to be kept under wraps but at the same time if there is smoke 9/10 there is fire, i would hope people would not just brand someone a bully for no reason.

I agree, I think it's a term that should not be used lightly. I think that if a post feels bullying you should report it as opposed to starting a fight. People arguing over whether a post is appropiate or not is just about as helpful as the innapropiate post was in the first place.

I would also like to see the mods deal with agression. Such behaviour should not be excused because it's put down to "frustration". Whether thats frustration due to dealing with the fall out of unwanted christmas pressies or the frustration of reading condescending posts. Abusing another poster should never be tolerated.

Calhoun wrote: »

If the regular animal welfare folk post in non confrontational way then there should be no issues or branding of bully. Which brings me on to your second point of these seasoned welfare folk that are "sick" of the same issues popping up again and again. It is commendable the work that these guys do but it doesn't elevate them above anyone or give any right for some of the posts that have been seen on boards, if they are sick of seeing the repeat issues ignore them or post when they are in a better mood.

I think that a FAQ section would help. Giving posters somewhere to have a glance over without having to ask the question unless your problem is specific. It would also help weed out the repetitive questions.

However you're focusing on the "animal welfare" group posting things which you don't agree with when in fairness today the problematic posts came from the other side and in the case of that particular thread was not warranted. There are absolutely some threads such a reaction would be justified but not the puppy one today.

Calhoun wrote: »

Finally your last point on "regular" pet owners voicing an opinion on discussion items as has been repeatedly pointed out this is a discussion forum and everyone gets an opinion, how can we tell the experience of anyone on this forum? Do we only allow card carrying rescue folk post? Surely they can provide enough advice that would overshadow the lowly pet owners?

+1 we can't start valuing some posters over others and we need to respect everybody who posts (until they prove otherwise ). However I do think that there are a few posters who make regular contributions and who I would consider an authority on certain topics. To loose their posts would be a shame. The simple fact it that some people know more about some subjects than other people.

Calhoun wrote: »

I think people of the forum need to remove the pedestals and start treating each other with respect, if they to quote the general rule of boards "don't be a dick" to each other we should have no problems

+ 100000

Zapperzy

Calhoun wrote: »

These two paragraph's of your posts really have stuck out, first i agree that there is a risk of people being branded a bully which need to be kept under wraps but at the same time if there is smoke 9/10 there is fire, i would hope people would not just brand someone a bully for no reason.

If the regular animal welfare folk post in non confrontational way then there should be no issues or branding of bully. Which brings me on to your second point of these seasoned welfare folk that are "sick" of the same issues popping up again and again. It is commendable the work that these guys do but it doesn't elevate them above anyone or give any right for some of the posts that have been seen on boards, if they are sick of seeing the repeat issues ignore them or post when they are in a better mood.

Finally your last point on "regular" pet owners voicing an opinion on discussion items as has been repeatedly pointed out this is a discussion forum and everyone gets an opinion, how can we tell the experience of anyone on this forum? Do we only allow card carrying rescue folk post? Surely they can provide enough advice that would overshadow the lowly pet owners?

I think people of the forum need to remove the pedestals and start treating each other with respect, if they to quote the general rule of boards "don't be a dick" to each other we should have no problems

I did not mean to come across as saying that rescue or animal welfare folk should be put on a pedestal, I for one do not put any of them up on a pedestal, I have had my fallings out with a few of them so I don't automatically put someone up on a pedestal just because their rescues. And I believe everyone should have their say here even us regular 'lowly pet-owners'.

What I was trying to say was that I can understand how some people can be a little impolite sometimes when they are the people picking up the pieces afterwards whether it be the issue of christmas puppys, shock collars, not spaying/neutering etc.
This goes for people like me as well, Im just a pet owner, I volunteered for a while with a shelter some time ago and I have spent a few years on different animal-related forums so I am by all means what I described earlier as a 'pet owner', but I have spent so many christmas's looking through the likes of buy & sell and donedeal both before christmas at people looking for pups and after christmas at people re-homing pups (and even more sadly the older dogs that have been replaced) that I too am sick of it. And I think it's the same with a lot of people here, so after all of these people like me have done as you described and ignored it what does actually get posted?

I have never come across this issue before on other forums, possibly because most other forums I am on are pet exclusive so nearly everyone is on the same level, to someone from say for example the parenting forum, (taken at random, it's the first forum that came to my head), came on here and looked at some of these threads they would probably be horrified because they may not be pet owners and understand the dedication and passion that some people here feel, on an exclusively pet forum it is presumed that nearly everyone on it has the same passion for improving animal welfare standards so sees nothing wrong with what is being said. That is my take on it anyways.

Cherry Blossom

The last thing I have to add to this for the minute is that I saw no reason whatsoever for the outburst that happened on the 'Pug' thread. Compare how it was going to the 'Monkey' thread for example and you will find stronger opinions and more strongly worded posts than 'a puppy is not just for christmas', and a few of them were posted by me. No one claimed any of those were condecending. Would anyone (Liah, builttospit, Vai, Convert, CerealRapist) like to clarify why they think there is a difference there?

Discodog

The other interesting thing to me is that a lot is made of Animal welfare extremism in the media, especially during the debate over the DBE Bill, but I see little evidence of it here. Even the more "extreme" posters are no way near animal right levels. Compared to many other forums we are a pretty moderate lot.

I have to agree with Adrenalin's last post. It did seem to kick off for very little reason. In the Monkey thread, irrespective of the OP's views, she is defending them which is her right.

It would be good if the Pug OP came here to give us their thoughts. EDIT As the OP is new here I have PM'd them to advise of this thread in case they would like to comment.

Calhoun

Zapperzy wrote: »

I did not mean to come across as saying that rescue or animal welfare folk should be put on a pedestal, I for one do not put any of them up on a pedestal, I have had my fallings out with a few of them so I don't automatically put someone up on a pedestal just because their rescues. And I believe everyone should have their say here even us regular 'lowly pet-owners'.

What I was trying to say was that I can understand how some people can be a little impolite sometimes when they are the people picking up the pieces afterwards whether it be the issue of christmas puppys, shock collars, not spaying/neutering etc.
This goes for people like me as well, Im just a pet owner, I volunteered for a while with a shelter some time ago and I have spent a few years on different animal-related forums so I am by all means what I described earlier as a 'pet owner', but I have spent so many christmas's looking through the likes of buy & sell and donedeal both before christmas at people looking for pups and after christmas at people re-homing pups (and even more sadly the older dogs that have been replaced) that I too am sick of it. And I think it's the same with a lot of people here, so after all of these people like me have done as you described and ignored it what does actually get posted?

I have never come across this issue before on other forums, possibly because most other forums I am on are pet exclusive so nearly everyone is on the same level, to someone from say for example the parenting forum, (taken at random, it's the first forum that came to my head), came on here and looked at some of these threads they would probably be horrified because they may not be pet owners and understand the dedication and passion that some people here feel, on an exclusively pet forum it is presumed that nearly everyone on it has the same passion for improving animal welfare standards so sees nothing wrong with what is being said. That is my take on it anyways.

I got what you meant about the pet owners and i can understand the frustration but i still don't condone the attitude that comes across in some of the posts because i believe they don't do the thread poster justice.

With a slight review of how people post they can still get the same point across and maybe the message will be taken on board, unlike todays approach which gets people to tune out and not listen. You won't reach everyone of course but changing some peoples mind is better than none.

To your last point i would say that it would be naive to make an assumption that this forum would be pets exclusives. Look where boards came from, a quake forum to what it is now the amount of passing traffic alone would be huge.

My viewing of this forum started off when i wandered away from a gaming forum but since then i have come to rely on it allot for information and for pure entertainment (picture thread, i check it daily ).

I do not like the direction the forum was going and think its a positive thing that the way people post is being challenged because if this forum becomes faction'd then the wandering stranger will never become a regular poster and the forum will die off.

WIZE

i just wanna say thanks for approving the Aquariums/ Terrariums / Vivariums forum . seems alot of people getting great advise and some amazing aquarium ideas floating about.:)

liah

Personally I only posted in the Pug thread because it happened to pop up on the Recent Threads thing.

I use subbed forums with a feed instead of browsing the forum itself, I don't see all posts, just click them when they show up. The pug one was the first one I saw that day and it tipped me over the edge.

Not sure why it matters at all, the sentiment remains the same.

Whispered

Calhoun wrote: »

think its a positive thing that the way people post is being challenged .

Absolutely agree. But you can't challenge every post in every thread. The place to do it is here, in this thread. Surely anywhere else could be seen as back seat modding and should not be accepted. It's ruining the forum imo and causing as many people to turn away from the forum as the self righteous and condescending posting.