How's our driving? (Feedback for the forum)

pokertalk

[QUOTE=


Oh yes I do think so - but I don't think everyone who disagrees should be labelled a bully. Obviously in some cases and there are some bad apples evidently. But I think it's bad to loose any poster unless they are consistently causing problems.[/QUOTE]
totally agree sure it would be very boring if we all agreed. agree?;)

homerhop

pokertalk wrote: »

dont get this probably me being slow but why would they go discuss it elsewhere

It shows the mindset of people like that.

I would love to post more in here, I have been around animals esp springers and cockers all my life but because I also shoot, anything i would have to say would get the usual what would you know you kill animals replys.

lrushe

liah wrote: »

Facebook and Formspring. The Formspring one is anonymous but it's pretty obvious the origins. I've not bothered replying to it so it's not public. Also not going to bother replying to the facebook one.

Absolutely childish behaviour. I may offend people but keep what happens here, here. I do. There's no reason to leak it beyond boards.

No wonder I was finding it hard to see the bullying if it is taking part on other sites aswell.
I am on Facebook but have never heard of Formspring. How do they know who you are on Facebook???
If this is the case it is beyond contemptible and I'd like to see a name and shame attitude taken to that sort of behaviour.

Whispered

homerhop wrote: »

It shows the mindset of people like that.

I would love to post more in here, I have been around animals esp springers and cockers all my life but because I also shoot, anything i would have to say would get the usual what would you know you kill animals replys.

There are a few hunters who post here with none of that. There are a good few people who have working dogs - I'm sure some of them are hunters too. As far as I know hunting is not usually discussed in the forum - so most people would not even know you hunt. I'd assume the discussion would be about the dog as opposed to what you do with him.

Whispered

lrushe wrote: »

. How do they know who you are on Facebook???
If this is the case it is beyond contemptible and I'd like to see a name and shame attitude taken to that sort of behaviour.

+1

lrushe

homerhop wrote: »

I would love to post more in here, I have been around animals esp springers and cockers all my life but because I also shoot, anything i would have to say would get the usual what would you know you kill animals replys.

I didn't know you shoot, nor would I have if you hadn't mentioned it. Alot of my animal care wouldn't be the same as others on this forum, I post none the less, some gets the thumbs up and some the thumbs down, such is life.
Don't know about anyone else but I would love to hear view points from people who actually work their dogs in the line of work they were bred for, it's very refreshing imo.

Cherry Blossom

Whispered wrote: »

There are a few hunters who post here with none of that. There are a good few people who have working dogs - I'm sure some of them are hunters too. As far as I know hunting is not usually discussed in the forum - so most people would not even know you hunt. I'd assume the discussion would be about the dog as opposed to what you do with him.

I drag hunt but no one would know that. My only input based on it would my input to a few threads on beagles;)

General question - is it not possible to edit posts more than 24hours old? - This is disrupting my self-moderating process.

adser53

I'm not gonna lie...I read this thread when it was first posted and kept tabs up to page 11 or 12 when it kinda went tit for tat so my apologies if my post seems out of context...

In my humble opinion, the word and term "bully" and "bullying" has been used all too freely of late. There are 2 sides to this.... first and foremost, there have been threads (that have been innocently) started by new members that straight away touch a nerve with more seasoned posters. These more experienced members might not all work in animal welfare but have been around here long enough that another generic thread on breeding, child eating rottweilers etc instantly gets their goat up.
For example, I'll stick to the topic of Restricted Breeds for the moment... Anyone who has posted on (or read) the A&P section for more than a few days knows that RB's get an unjustly hard time. We get new posters saying things like "Oh I saw a pitbull today and had to grab my child out of harms way, why would someone want to own such a dangerous animal etc" As a RB owner, this level of ignorance makes me see red straight away and I know I'm not the only one. So of course, I and many others reply in haste and slate the OP. But how long did it take for the RB issue to become so exhausting that the RB owners gave up being "bullies" and simply became autonomous and repetitive and therefore un-insulting? We did'nt become any less passionate about the issue but simply gave up arguing. Would it not be safe to assume the same for the increasing number of (repetitive) threads on here about designer breeds, breeding etc that seem to be the root of the bullying problems?

Now lets be realistic here, not everyone reads the charter. I personally posted here for months before I bothered reading it one day to kill time and I think 99% of people are the same. This is why I think it's a great idea to have FAQs in place for the more sensitive and common issues. But with these in place, you will always have posts/threads that others find offensive but we can't premoderate everything or please everyone.
I'm a member on other forums where warnings have been issued instantly to new members for posting a question that has been asked a thousand times before. I'm not saying that's right either but a promotion of the "search" function may get rid of a lot of the exhausted comments that new members receive on their threads that they then perceive to be bullying.

As for the other side of the fence, I can honestly see why new members are intimidated on here. Regardless of their posts, they do not deserve to be insulted, belittled etc. We all started somewhere...none of us were born with limitless animal knowledge so maybe, initially, PMs could be sent to the posters that the mods feel are the most reported, simply informing them that their manner of posting puts off new members? How else will they know they're doing wrong? Again I'll bring up the RB issue as it's close to my heart and I know that someone who posts innocently could be offended by a reply I make but surely the most appropriate response from the mods end would be a PM to me saying "listen man, cool it a bit, they're a new member" and if the OP reported me, then a PM to them saying "Look, I know you're new but this is an issue that's been covered before so a lively response is to be expected. Search the forum for similar threads for further info"

Sorry, this post is very conviluted but what I'm basically trying to say is that not everyone is a bully, they're just passionate and exhausted by the repetitive threads and the new members obviously don't know that they've opened a can of worms. If there was a bit of give and take and less people jumping on the bullying bandwagon (and I mean both sides) I think things would nearly run themselves. Its inevitable that there will be different opinions but this is natural and welcome but there are always some folks don't want to listen.

shinikins

Adser53 i agree with most of what you've written, people do become jaded reading the same thing over and over again, but it is still no excuse for jumping at the OP and belittling them. Funny thing is, they are sick of seeing these questions come up again and again, but yet they don't tire of ranting at the person posting, or lecturing repeatedly. In my daily life i'm asked the same questions over and over again, ad nauseum, but i still treat the person asking me the question in a civil manner. Its not that difficult.

Its about time everyone used a little courtesy and common sense when they post. Take a deep breath when you see something you don't like and read over what you have written before you submit your reply. Treat every new thread as exactly that, a new thread that requires a fresh perspective.

Cherry Blossom

shinikins wrote: »

Treat every new thread as exactly that, a new thread that requires a fresh perspective.

I do, or at least I thought I did, I find it entertaining that I post in the pre-moderated section in exactly the same style as the non pre-mod section and have never had a post there dis-approved by mods, now it appears I am causing offence in the non pre-mod section!

adser53

shinikins wrote: »

Adser53 i agree with most of what you've written, people do become jaded reading the same thing over and over again, but it is still no excuse for jumping at the OP and belittling them. Funny thing is, they are sick of seeing these questions come up again and again, but yet they don't tire of ranting at the person posting, or lecturing repeatedly. In my daily life i'm asked the same questions over and over again, ad nauseum, but i still treat the person asking me the question in a civil manner. Its not that difficult.

Its about time everyone used a little courtesy and common sense when they post. Take a deep breath when you see something you don't like and read over what you have written before you submit your reply. Treat every new thread as exactly that, a new thread that requires a fresh perspective.

Shinikins you're right and you'll get no arguement here I thought I'd written a very even and level headed post (took me feckin ages lol ) but straight away you raised the perfect point that it goes both ways. I for one can't help but respond (and I'll hold my hand up and say that my replies aren't overly friendly) when another RB thread comes up. Your closing paragraph should be added to the charter

lrushe

adser53 wrote: »

promotion of the "search" function may get rid of a lot of the exhausted comments that new members receive on their threads that they then perceive to be bullying.

I agree with this, why is there a 'search' function available if not to search out threads already related to the issue you are having.
On another forum I am on the standard answer to a repetative question would be "this issue has been discussed many times before, please use the search function".

adser53

lrushe wrote: »

On another forum I am on the standard answer to a repetative question would be "this issue has been discussed many times before, please use the search function".

My point exactly. Now I can see the postitives to that attitude not being adopted here (i.e proper responses to threads rather than generic replies) BUT maybe a line should be drawn somewhere.

Looking at the first 3 pages of this forum alone...

1.Keeping animals warm and safe during this recession & At what temperature should a dog sleep inside & Another harsh winter & Heat pads for dogs

2.when to introduce second dog? & Two new dogs having problems settling in

3.Decision to breed Labrador & To Spay or not to Spay?

Now let me clarify first and foremost that I HAVE NOT read any of these threads so my apologies to the OP's if I have quoted their threads by mistake but based on titles alone, these are all very similar threads. It just so happens in this case that "controversial" threads aren't on my list but on any given day the above quote box could contain the likes of...

pitbulls/RB's in general are dangerous
dangerous dog list/dogs kept on a muzzle/dogs off leash
looking for a goldendoodle/cockapoo/maltipug/bull sh*t etc
breeding my yorkie/westie/malti/shi etc etc
want a dog for xmas/birthday/for the kids
I live in an apartment and want a dog
neighbours barking dog/my dog barks constantly
roaming cats
etc

The list goes on but surely my point can be seen that the same threads come up repeatedly?

shinikins

adser53 wrote: »

Looking at the first 3 pages of this forum alone...

......on any given day the above quote box could contain the likes of...

pitbulls/RB's in general are dangerous
dangerous dog list/dogs kept on a muzzle/dogs off leash
looking for a goldendoodle/cockapoo/maltipug/bull sh*t etc
breeding my yorkie/westie/malti/shi etc etc
want a dog for xmas/birthday/for the kids
I live in an apartment and want a dog
neighbours barking dog/my dog barks constantly
roaming cats
etc

The list goes on but surely my point can be seen that the same threads come up repeatedly?

There are similar threads that will crop up, and thats true for any fora, but you can't dismiss them all, each OP will have a different view and perspective, and each should be answered. I'm sure there are some subjects that could be stickied due to them being repeated, but you can't sticky everything. Also, each new OP can't just be adding to the last barking dog/dogs off leash/roaming cats thread, or we would have threads a mile long, and people would get bored and drift off.

If everyone takes their own lives as a for instance, how many times would you have a similar conversation? Some fecker cut me off at the lights/Mary down the road is pregnant/my mobile bill has skyrocketed? I'm sure they crop up over and over again, but do you cut off conversation because "its been done before"??

I agree that at times there is the need to point out to an OP that there is tons of information available in previous threads, but instead of cutting them off with downright rude and dismissive posts, would it not be wiser to spend that energy instead on doing a quick search and copy/pasting it and saying "Hi OP, this is a really interesting thread that might interest you/have information pertaining to your query"?

As my grandmother loved telling us as kids, its nice to be nice, and you catch more flys with honey than with vinegar.

adser53

Its true what your saying shinikins about the stickies and I agree that the forum would die a death if it was done to the extremes in your post. Say for every 5 threads that come up about designer breeds for example....3 or 4 of them will simply be "I'm looking for a (insert db here) any advice?" the standard reply is always "these arent a proper breed etc" so in that case a sticky would work. For the unique thread out of those 5 hypathetical ones, a discussion is warranted and welcome.
I personally dont bother reading any new threads with titles like I mentioned above because its just repetition. I'm sure im not the only one and in that case, the unique thread gets lost and ignored.

dan_d

I suppose, for all those people who say they are now reading their posts and wondering whether they are insulting....

Instead of thinking to yourself "I know that's a bit rude but if someone has a problem they can PM me", try looking at it and seeing if there is anything in your post that you could be PM'd about, and take it out.

You can still make your point by simply changing the language. As many people have said, what's written on a forum can be taken up wrong, as you don't have all the indicators you would get talking to someone in person - facial expression, body language, tone of voice etc. It's all very well to say I am what I am, but it's difficult to be what you are and not be insulting, when to others around here, all you are is typed words on a screen. People see you for what you are from what you have typed. It might sound totally innocuous to you, and if you were to say it to their faces, it might be just that - completely harmless. But when typed, some things come across as aggressive, rude and belittling. Honestly, some things I've read here have me wondering what the poster is like in real life, are they actually that rude and how on earth do they get through daily life if they are.

It's not walking on eggshells, or agreeing with everybody. It's (unfortunately!!) having to spend a bit more time on your posts, put in some more qualifications around what you're saying - stupid stuff like "okay, I see your point, but...", "I'm not being rude, but I don't agree with you because...", whatever. It's having to tone down your language, rather than instantly attacking someone....while making your point, you are omitting to say the things your body says for you when you have a conversation. Things that would be taken for granted through your tone of voice and your facial expressions if it was a face to face conversation.

I'm a pretty direct person, but when talking on boards I do think a lot about what I'm typing, as it can easily be taken up wrong. I make my point but in as measured a way as possible. People frequently disagree with me (I haunt the politics forum!!), but I can think of only maybe one or two examples of somebody outright saying "your post is completely rude and wrong" - and usually they are someone who posts in that manner themselves. I favour conversation/debate, rather than fighting and slagging.

I'm rambling now . Maybe in the stickies we could put a "ten/fifteen commandments of the animal forum"? If it's not there already?:o

liah

@Hellrazer: Are you sure that's wise? On Facebook it's their real name-- is it legal to share that kind of stuff? I don't feel comfortable crossing one area of the 'net with another, though I suppose it was their move first..

For whoever it was who asked: they found my facebook/formspring via my sig, which is fine, I accept that having that stuff there may bring abuse, I'm just kinda weirded out that someone actually took the time to take it off boards.

Whispered

dan_d wrote: »

I favour conversation/debate, rather than fighting and slagging.

This. Abuse should not be tolerated. But it's up to us, as posters, to report the posts we feel border on fighting and slagging. Then I suppose up to the mods to act on it in a manner they feel appropiate. I would worry about censorship though. I mean if a post offends but gives advice in equal measures - how is that dealt with - delete the post or edit out the offensive material? Surely editing posts is way too much for the mods to do.

Also should that happen - is it a mods role to keep the peace by editing posters?

Is there a way to keep tabs on a poster? Say for instance; 5 of my posts are reported in a day - do the mods be aware of that? Could you maybe send a PM to the poster in question letting them know they have caused offence in different posts and maybe they should adjust their tone. Further reports like that will lead to a week out or something?

@Liah - it was me who asked. Are these people actually posting on your wall? I'm so shocked.

EDIT: Just had a look at formspring (didn't know it existed - looks fun - might sign up) I can see how they anon post. Did you delete the posts?

liah

They haven't posted on my wall (not on my friends' list), but I've got an angry message.

On formspring, they don't show up unless I reply to them. I haven't deleted them but I haven't replied, either. They're in my inbox. Kind of annoying though as they're anonymous so there's no real way of proving who it was who wrote it, guess that was the point.

Cherry Blossom

liah wrote: »

@Hellrazer: Are you sure that's wise? On Facebook it's their real name-- is it legal to share that kind of stuff? I don't feel comfortable crossing one area of the 'net with another, though I suppose it was their move first..

For whoever it was who asked: they found my facebook/formspring via my sig, which is fine, I accept that having that stuff there may bring abuse, I'm just kinda weirded out that someone actually took the time to take it off boards.

I don't see any reason why people shouldn't be named if they are going to abuse and slander people openly here or elsewhere on the internet.

homerhop

They are cowards plain and simple, if they havent the courage to come on and say it here it really shows them for what they are. I wouldnt bother wasting anymore time with these "pillars of the animal welfare community"

liah

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I don't see any reason why people shouldn't be named if they are going to abuse and slander people openly here or elsewhere on the internet.

Well yeah, but that's the thing-- it isn't really "openly," it's a private message on FB and an anonymous one on Formspring. Since they're (the websites, not the comments) unrelated to boards, I don't think the mods can take action, as far as I'm aware they can only take action against what's said/done on boards itself.

I would like this clarified before I give the name.

adser53

Am I understanding this right?! People are messaging you insults on facebook and formspring because of posts here?! Thats just pathetic!

Whispered

homerhop wrote: »

I wouldnt bother wasting anymore time with these "pillars of the animal welfare community"

I'd just like to point out that we don't know who is sending these messages and until we do we should probably avoid assuming who it is or indeed associating them with anybody else. They may have nothing to do with animal welfare at all. Some people just go around looking for fights.

EDIT: To clarify - I am not in any way defending the person who is doing this - I think it's disgusting - but I would hate to see people loose respect for our animal welfare posters due to one or two people.

@ Liah - the person who messaged you on FB used their real name? Do you know who they are on board? Can you get onto their profile FB?

I wonder how many times this has happened before without it coming to light on the forum.

To be honest I am considering taking a break from the forum until these people (or is it one person?) are ID'd. About 2 years ago I had a spate of abusive phonecalls due to something which happened on this forum. I'm certainly not putting myself in a position where something like that can happen again.

dan_d

Reading your posts guys, that's incredible.

Are there really people out there with that little to do and who get that annoyed by stuff on an internet forum? That's terrible.

adser53

Whispered wrote: »

About 2 years ago I had a spate of abusive phonecalls due to something which happened on this forum.

You have got to be ****ting me? I certainly hope that user was banned at the very least! Thats horrific!

Whispered

adser53 wrote: »

You have got to be ****ting me? I certainly hope that user was banned at the very least! Thats horrific!

Yes the user was banned. But it was for something else. I reported the user for illegal activity and they somehow found out who reported them.

There was a huge thing about it at the time. At least to me it felt like a huge thing. Others suggested I just "deal with it". But sure it's over and done with now.

I'm just a bit nervous now that another poster has been contacted outside boards. It's not right. And I wonder how often it happens that we don't know about.

Whispered

Quick question - there is currently a thread regarding a GS pup which raised a question for me about prey drive and breeding.

I couldn't help the op, but asked my question on thread. Is that allowed?

DBCyc

Wow. Reading this thread over the last few days has been interesting to say the least.

If there are members here that are going on other websites etc. and abusing people, well then they are pathetic. Abusive phone calls are an absolute disgrace.

I only really read dog related posts on this forum, but there does seem to be a bit of repetitive bickering going on. I'll admit to getting riled up about some comments regarding restricted breeds as I am sure others can do in relation to various other topics. Still though, the best approach is education and friendly advice and if this is not taken on board, then so be it.

Would it be an idea to put up a sticky entitled "So you want to get a dog - read this for advice" or similar? This might stop some of the threads turning into arguments over designer breeds, ethical breeding, restricted breeds, rescues etc. It could include some advice on things like why you might choose to rescue rather than buy a pup (and vice versa!), a checklist of things to check for from a breeder advertising pups for sale, a guide to determining what breeds are suitable for you (with links) etc. If it is all written as genuine, objective advice it may be taken on board by someone with a query/opinion rather than start a new thread with an innocent question that may anger others

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

They are cowards plain and simple, if they havent the courage to come on and say it here it really shows them for what they are. I wouldnt bother wasting anymore time with these "pillars of the animal welfare community"

Where did your quoted phrase come from ?. It is from the Facebook comments ?.

Abusive phone calls are nothing new. I know someone who runs a respected rescue who gets them & loads of abuse on other sites.