The Rules [Christian responses only]

Zombrex

The eternal punishment thread made me ponder something.

God has a standard of holiness, and punishes those who fall short of this standard due to a sense of justice.

This was communicated to the chosen people the Hebrews through the Mosaic laws. The Hebrews fell short of this covenant and then this was replaced by the New covenant.

My question is what are the rules now? How do we know what is or isn't a sin? Is it still the Mosaic laws? Some of them are contextual and have been replaced?

Say for example I wanted to know exactly what is or isn't a sin? Is that possible to know?

There are things Christians shouldn't do (homosexual acts say) but avoid all of these are not enough to avoid sinning are the?

Are we supposed to actually know what is or isn't the complete list of sins?

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

The eternal punishment thread made me ponder something.

God has a standard of holiness, and punishes those who fall short of this standard due to a sense of justice.

This was communicated to the chosen people the Hebrews through the Mosaic laws. The Hebrews fell short of this covenant and then this was replaced by the New covenant.

My question is what are the rules now? How do we know what is or isn't a sin? Is it still the Mosaic laws? Some of them are contextual and have been replaced?

Say for example I wanted to know exactly what is or isn't a sin? Is that possible to know?

There are things Christians shouldn't do (homosexual acts say) but avoid all of these are not enough to avoid sinning are the?

Are we supposed to actually know what is or isn't the complete list of sins?

Sin is anything that transgresses against the will of God. It cannot just be reduced to keeping a set of rules. There are sins of omission (eg knowing that there is a famine in Mali and choosing to ignore charitable appeals for it) as well as sins of commission (eg choosing to defraud social welfare). All of us, no matter how intentioned, are guilty of sin at one point or another.

The prominent biblical scholar NT Wright, Anglican Bishop of Durham, makes the point that the Law of Moses was not some kind of list that, if anyone were able to keep all of it, would therefore earn them salvation. Instead, trying to live by the Law was a mark, or sign, of the Covenant that the Israelites had agreed to enter into with God. But part of that Covenant involved the offering up of sacrifices, which were a gesture of their faith that God would, in the future, send a perfect Lamb as a sacrifice (the Messiah).

So the Law, for the Israelites, served two purposes. Firstly to make them aware of their sinfulness, in that they regularly failed to live up to even the limited examples of sin that the Law provided. Secondly, by seeking to obey the Law they demonstrated their desire to remain in God's Covenant with them.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Sin is anything that transgresses against the will of God. It cannot just be reduced to keeping a set of rules. There are sins of omission (eg knowing that there is a famine in Mali and choosing to ignore charitable appeals for it) as well as sins of commission (eg choosing to defraud social welfare). All of us, no matter how intentioned, are guilty of sin at one point or another.

Granted, but is it possible for us to know what is or isn't a sin in a complete sense? Or are there things that are sins that we would have no idea they are, something we haven't even thought of.

Could I be doing something that is against the will of God but which has never been communicated to us so I, and no one else, would know it is? Or have all sins communicated to us at some point?

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Granted, but is it possible for us to know what is or isn't a sin in a complete sense? Or are there things that are sins that we would have no idea they are, something we haven't even thought of.

Could I be doing something that is against the will of God but which has never been communicated to us so I, and no one else, would know it is? Or have all sins communicated to us at some point?

To be honest, I think that question is still missing the point somewhat.

Sin and righteousness, for the Christian, are primarily matters of the heart rather than of behaviour. Jesus said that the Law can be summed up in the two commands to love God with all our heart, and to love our neighbours as ourselves. I don't think any of us live by that standard 24 hours a day.

So, as a Christian, the teachings of the Bible help me to live my life in relationship with God, and to try to avoid anything that would grieve Him or damage His cause. The fact that I don't always live up to those teachings is a reminder to me that my relationship with Him is based on undeserved grace rather than a reward for my performance in avoiding sin. However, this is not a blank cheque for me to go and sin as much as I like, because this would displease someone I love (God, not to mention my wife) and also because my attempts to follow Him better and more obediently are a mark or sign of the Covenant relationship I have with Him.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

To be honest, I think that question is still missing the point somewhat.

There is not a point per say, I'm just curious.

PDN wrote: »

Sin and righteousness, for the Christian, are primarily matters of the heart rather than of behaviour. Jesus said that the Law can be summed up in the two commands to love God with all our heart, and to love our neighbours as ourselves. I don't think any of us live by that standard 24 hours a day.

Would that imply that if you truly loved God you wouldn't need to consciously know what is his or isn't his will, you would just follow it because through loving God you yourself would be on the same level so it was as to what is good or bad.

So, hypothetically imagine that it is against God will to have sex outside of marriage but for some reason this was never communicated to humans.

So if you truly loved God you would know that this is wrong and wouldn't do it, you wouldn't have to be told by God.

PDN wrote: »

So, as a Christian, the teachings of the Bible help me to live my life in relationship with God, and to try to avoid anything that would grieve Him or damage His cause. The fact that I don't always live up to those teachings is a reminder to me that my relationship with Him is based on undeserved grace rather than a reward for my performance in avoiding sin. However, this is not a blank cheque for me to go and sin as much as I like, because this would displease someone I love (God, not to mention my wife) and also because my attempts to follow Him better and more obediently are a mark or sign of the Covenant relationship I have with Him.

That isn't really what my question is about. It is about knowledge more than anything else.

antiskeptic

Wicknight wrote: »

Say for example I wanted to know exactly what is or isn't a sin? Is that possible to know?

There are things Christians shouldn't do (homosexual acts say) but avoid all of these are not enough to avoid sinning are the?

Are we supposed to actually know what is or isn't the complete list of sins?

As has been pointed out, the infinite range of potential sin renders formulating a list impossible. The Christian is instead guided by some pointers which should allow him to evaluate for himself.

1) The Holy Spirit within. The Holy Spirit has an unerring nose for sin and will recoile in the face of it. Because He resides withing, the Christian will become aware that there is a problem in his behaviour. The Christian is free to suppress the 'still, small voice' that raises objection so as to continue to engage with sin. The result however, will be a distancing in the relationship between God and Christan. Tangiblity in a couple of senses w.r.t. 'actually knowing what is and isn't sin' thus

- the Spirit wars with sin
- the Christian knows he is denying the hint
- the Christian will sense distance between him and God.


2) Self-centredness.

The so-called Golden Rule (love God & neighbour as self) sums up the upsidedown nature of the Kingdom of God. In this world, the promotion of self is lauded. Because your worth it. And very much of the misery in this world is caused by peoples pursuit of wealth, health and happiness (both their own misery and the misery of others that need to be brushed aside in said pursuit). If a Christian analyses his behavior he can easily see where the heart lies: whether his motivations are self-gratification or whether his motivation is to glorify God and love his neighbour. Does this mean a person can't aspire to become 100m champion? No ... God gives gifts and it's good to use them - but the Christian can examine his attitude to his expressing his gifts: whether there is jealously over anothers abilities, whether to bend the rules on performance enhancing drugs, whether he excludes God from his pursuit of Gold rather than including God and perhaps missing out on the medals altogether.

It's not hard to see self-centredness in one's own motivations. You've only got to honestly ask yourself the question.

Overature

When there are rules, its easy to follow them and thats all you have to do to be right with God. It then gets to the point that the rules are all you need and God gets kicked out of the equation

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

Granted, but is it possible for us to know what is or isn't a sin in a complete sense?

Yes. By using your common sense tbh


Can you think of any examples of something which may/may not be a sin and which was never been even touched upon in some way in the Bible? There's no explicit mention of pyramid schemes that I'm aware of, but I'm pretty sure it's a sin to knowingly get involved in one.

georgieporgy

Pyramid schemes are not mentioned in the bible so they are ok. No, wait- that's condoms!:D

philologos

Wicknight (OP): I personally don't share the understanding that Christianity is about a list of rules. I believe that I have been saved by grace, by Christ's crucifixion, and that I am called to live the risen life, growing in holiness by Christ's grace, becoming more and more adherent as each living day goes on. This happens because He dwells in me, not because of my own work, or my own strength. Christ's grace does not give me the freedom to use Him as an excuse to sin, but as forgiveness enough to allow me to grow in holiness gradually.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

The prominent biblical scholar NT Wright, Anglican Bishop of Durham, makes the point that the Law of Moses was not some kind of list that, if anyone were able to keep all of it, would therefore earn them salvation. Instead, trying to live by the Law was a mark, or sign, of the Covenant that the Israelites had agreed to enter into with God. But part of that Covenant involved the offering up of sacrifices, which were a gesture of their faith that God would, in the future, send a perfect Lamb as a sacrifice (the Messiah).

If you are interested in understanding this a little better you might want to pick up Simply Christian by the good Bishop. Alternatively, if you don't want to splash out the cash you can watch the below video (one of four) where he broadly discusses the book. Presumably he outlines in further detail what PDN has discussed above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWn-vt7SeNo

georgieporgy

Jakkass wrote: »

Wicknight (OP): I personally don't share the understanding that Christianity is about a list of rules. I believe that I have been saved by grace, by Christ's crucifixion, and that I am called to live the risen life, growing in holiness by Christ's grace, becoming more and more adherent as each living day goes on. This happens because He dwells in me, not because of my own work, or my own strength. Christ's grace does not give me the freedom to use Him as an excuse to sin, but as forgiveness enough to allow me to grow in holiness gradually.

That's admirable and I agree with it. But I want to add; what about Christ's instruction to the woman caught in adultery? He saved her from being stoned , forgave her , and then said "go and sin no more!" He expected her to make a decision not to sin anymore and carry out that decision by her future actions. It is true that Jesus' grace is working in you, but you have to continually correspond with it. Hence the daily struggle against the old man /old self.

philologos

Agreed. New life in Christ is about gradually putting the old life to death. It is Christ who has prepared in us good works in advance (Ephesians 2:8-10), nonetheless we are saved by His grace so that we might not boast. As for making a decision not to sin any more, this pretty much corresponds with accepting Jesus as Lord. Generally, one will commit oneself by God's help to turn away from sin. Even if one commits ones self to turn from sin, one certainly will not do it alone. We are assured that if we are to continue trusting in Christ, His work might come to fruition in us (Philippians 1:6).

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

1) The Holy Spirit within. The Holy Spirit has an unerring nose for sin and will recoile in the face of it. Because He resides withing, the Christian will become aware that there is a problem in his behaviour. The Christian is free to suppress the 'still, small voice' that raises objection so as to continue to engage with sin.

So basically a Christian will know what is or isn't a sin without having to be specifically told because the "still, small voice" in his head is basically the Holy Spirit?

I'm curious what would you see the purpose of the Bible? As a supplement to this?

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

Wicknight (OP): I personally don't share the understanding that Christianity is about a list of rules. I believe that I have been saved by grace, by Christ's crucifixion, and that I am called to live the risen life, growing in holiness by Christ's grace, becoming more and more adherent as each living day goes on. This happens because He dwells in me, not because of my own work, or my own strength. Christ's grace does not give me the freedom to use Him as an excuse to sin, but as forgiveness enough to allow me to grow in holiness gradually.

Thats nice, but it isn't really anything to do with my question :P

My question is about knowledge, and how we know something is or isn't a sin. Antiskeptic came closest to properly answering it with his idea that (if I'm following) the little voice in our head is God and that we will recognize sin without having to be told because this voice will start screaming.

An example I already used but which I think is a good one is homosexual acts, since I think most of you have said that you see nothing wrong with homosexual acts except that they go against God plan.

So my question can be summarized as basically if the Bible hadn't informed humans that God disapproves of homosexual acts would we know this anyway?

Antiskeptics response seems to imply we would, that our conscience would start kicking up a fuss at the idea of homosexual acts.

Would you agree with this assessment?

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

Yes. By using your common sense tbh

Sorry, just to clarify. Do you feel common sense reflects God's will (ie close to Antiskeptics idea that our conscience is basically God's morality), or that by using common sense we can extrapolate from the examples in the Bible how to behave in circumstances not mentioned in the Bible (ie we would still need the Bible in the first place)?

antiskeptic

Wicknight wrote: »

So basically a Christian will know what is or isn't a sin without having to be specifically told because the "still, small voice" in his head is basically the Holy Spirit?

I'm curious what would you see the purpose of the Bible? As a supplement to this?

The Bible reveals the detail of the character of God. He shows himself to be eg: meek and gracious and self-sacrificing (as well as your preferred view: furious wrath against sin). He also shows that/how he is working against our sinful tendencies to make us be like him. Such knowledge is something that the Holy Spirit can leverage in the day-to-day practicality of lifes sin-inducing circumstances

The Bible also helps us to calibrate ourselves correctly - it's not as if you've to stand there turning the cheek when some yobbo decides to smack you one. Consider this paired proverb:

Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

You can well stand up to a 'fool' at a dinner party who ranting on (perhaps) on the subject of religious idiots and their ability to place blind faith in a toothfairy god (says the first proverb). The second proverb says not to be like him in the way you respond - your goal is to love him, not ridicule him in return.


The Bible is about a tonne of other things but those are two ways in which it helps in the not-sinning stakes.

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

The Bible also helps us to calibrate ourselves correctly - it's not as if you've to stand there turning the cheek when some yobbo decides to smack you one.

But don't we already know that?

I guess I'm not quite following what the purpose of a book, that invokes rational thought, is when you say that we already know what is sin or isn't sin sub-consciously without requiring to be told.

philologos

Wicknight: The title is perhaps the issue. It isn't about a list of rules, but about trying to walk in holiness with God, which is a different thing than Pharasaic legalism.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

Wicknight: The title is perhaps the issue. It isn't about a list of rules, but about trying to walk in holiness with God, which is a different thing than Pharasaic legalism.

What is "it" in that sentence? My question is about knowledge, the rest of you seem to be talking about salvation or what it means to be a Christian. Which is rather irrelevant to the question I'm asking since Christians don't gain salvation through not sinning. They sin yet are given the gift of salvation. Whether they know what they are doing is a sin or not is therefore irrelevant, it doesn't matter since not sinning isn't a realistic goal.

philologos

I think from what I've read is that Christians become more and more like the one who called them as their lives go on. It is an incramental process. Although people will never conceivably 100% stop sinning, we should recognise that it is a continual process that will be completed when we are resurrected and are with Christ.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

I think from what I've read is that Christians become more and more like the one who called them as their lives go on. It is an incramental process. Although people will never conceivably 100% stop sinning, we should recognise that it is a continual process that will be completed when we are resurrected and are with Christ.

That is sort of what I mean. All of that, while interesting, is not relevant to my question.

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

The eternal punishment thread made me ponder something.

God has a standard of holiness, and punishes those who fall short of this standard due to a sense of justice.

This was communicated to the chosen people the Hebrews through the Mosaic laws. The Hebrews fell short of this covenant and then this was replaced by the New covenant.

My question is what are the rules now? How do we know what is or isn't a sin? Is it still the Mosaic laws? Some of them are contextual and have been replaced?

First off, the scripture declares that "...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23 and "...whatsoever is not of faith is sin," Romans 14:23. The all in Romans 3:23 applies to everyone past, present and future and therefore it applies before the giving of the law to Moses, after the giving of it and even now that the law has passed away through the death of Christ.

So with that in mind we must define what faith is. Faith is trusting God, trusting His Word of promise. It is not just believing in God, it is believing in God and trusting what He says will come to pass

God is a God of covenants i.e. Testaments or one way contracts like our last will and testaments that we have today, i.e. one person writes all the terms. God gave Adam and Eve a covenant in the garden. Right relationship with Him was based on the keeping of that covenant. Subdue the earth, fill it and don't touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They failed and consequently brought sin on all of us.

Not happy with just sinning mankind tried to justify his fallen condition and rationalized to himself that what was thought to be sin is not really sin after all. God then entered the scene and picked a people to be His oracle i.e. His mouth piece. So he chose a people and used their history to teach to the world what He was like. This included the giving of the perfect standard of perfection i.e. The Law. A standard which served as a mirror to those who thought they could just do as they pleased.

The law itself specifically states that those who do these things (i.e. keep the law) will live in them - Leviticus 18:5. And this is picked up by Paul in Romans 10: 5 "...that the man which doeth those things shall live by them."

So when God gave the law He was laying down a new covenant relationship with His people. But nobody could ever keep this standard which is why God gave them remission of sins through the vicarious sacrificing of animals. Which means that God never intended that this standard be kept by anyone except the One who could keep it, namely His Son, and having thus kept it and lived the perfect life, lay that perfect life down as a ransom price paid in order to redeem those who could not keep it, i.e. us.

When Christ came on the scene He kept this standard and laid down His life and by doing so opened a new covenant relationship with Him. One that is based on faith and not on performance under the old law which died in Him. So now God takes us on the basis of our faith and as already explained, faith is trusting God's Word of promises, one of which is that He will give eternal life to those who accept that Christ is their Lord and Saviour, that He died so that we don't have to die and that God raised Him from the dead immortalizing the God man relationship in Himself forever.

So the only rule that applies now is the rule of faith. Do you have any? Jesus said when I return will I find faith on the earth? Nobody can keep God's perfect standard of righteousness under the law, but we can all be righteous in His sight by practicing faith. As it is written; "The Just shall live by faith." Habakkuk 2:4, Roman 1;17, Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38. When we practice faith God sees us as though we are just like Jesus, deserving of life even though we do not, in the same way that He seen Jesus as just like us on the cross, deserving of death even though He did not. But not only that, He also promises that for faith He will also put in us a deposit of the same spirit of life that raised up Jesus from the dead.

"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you." Romans 8:11

So more than anything else our attention should be focused on keeping the rule of maintaining the faith connection everyday.

"That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3:14

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" 2 Corinthians 13:5

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9

So no matter what you do, if you are not found in Christ then you are still in your sins. And if in you are still in your sins then you will be judged according to the law. All that is required to be delivered from your sins is a simple act of faith in God, but refusal to do this simple little thing will eventually result in eternal separation from the source of life, and you really don't want that, or maybe you do, I don't know.

Wicknight wrote: »

Say for example I wanted to know exactly what is or isn't a sin? Is that possible to know?

Yes. Read Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Then the sayings of Jesus in the New Testament, who says that if you even think the thought then you're as guilty as the one who commits the deed.

Wicknight wrote: »

There are things Christians shouldn't do (homosexual acts say) but avoid all of these are not enough to avoid sinning are the?

No, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Rom 3:23, and "...there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Rom 3:12 Even people who we would consider good who don't do anything wrong, God knows the heart and knows that dwells therein.

Wicknight wrote: »

Are we supposed to actually know what is or isn't the complete list of sins?

In order to what? Gain eternal life? Nope. Even if you could gain the knowledge of all the possible sins in the universe you would still have already fallen short of perfection somewhere along the line in your own performance under the law and thus are as much a sinner (one who falls short of the mark by either a miss or a mile) as anyone else.

In Christ God has dealt with sin. This is good news to some and nothing that important to others. When the time comes to be judged all will depend on where you stand. If you are in Christ by faith then your sins are covered, but if you are found to be still in your sins i.e. having no faith in Him, i.e. uncovered by the death of Christ, then you will take the brunt of the punishment because you reject the covering from that punishment provided in Christ.

santing

Sin is

• Failing to do right.
  So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. (Jas 4:17 ESV)
• Doubt.
  But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Rom 14:23 ESV)
• Lawlessness
  Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (1Jn 3:4 ESV)

Soul Winner

santing wrote: »

Sin is

• Failing to do right.
  So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. (Jas 4:17 ESV)

Right, but where is the good news that should come after this? In James' Epistle there is none. Not so with Paul - see below:

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? (Cue Good News)Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." St Paul to the Romans 7:21-25

antiskeptic

Wicknight wrote: »

But don't we already know that?

I guess I'm not quite following what the purpose of a book, that invokes rational thought, is when you say that we already know what is sin or isn't sin sub-consciously without requiring to be told.

Firstly let me stress that my comments refer to the situation for Christians only. The issue of a (currently) lost person being equipped with a knowledge of good and evil is a separate one.

The place of faith in all this needs illuminating.

It may help if you were to picture faith as the bible views it - rather than in the way an atheist would typically view it. The bible views faith as a substantial thing (albeit immaterial). Faith, says Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) is 'the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen'. A simple analogy would be to suppose faith a kind of petrol, the fuel that powers our engine so as to enable us to walk the Christian walk. If 'full of faith' I can resist sin more determinedly, I can withstand great persecution without hatred and bitterness building up. I could, like Nelson Mandela, truly forgive cruel captors after a half a lifetime of persecution (and so inspire others to forgive that cruelty too). And faith comes (as the bible tells us and as I experience it) from hearing the word of God.

Rather than get into the technicalities of how our fuel tank is filled by mere words on a page (suffice to say it's a supernatural occurance), just hold that thought in your head. The word of God produces faith in the believer.

Now we return to me faced with a decision about some or other act. I've the knowledge of good and evil which tells me that to carry out this act is a sinful thing. My desire is to pull away from performing this act but I've also got temptation pulling me into doing it. What will make the difference to the outcome if not the fuel available to power my will unto godliness? If I have no faith I'll fold under the pressure. If I'm faith-filled, I'll tell satan where to get off.

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

In order to what? Gain eternal life? Nope. Even if you could gain the knowledge of all the possible sins in the universe you would still have already fallen short of perfection somewhere along the line in your own performance under the law and thus are as much a sinner (one who falls short of the mark by either a miss or a mile) as anyone else.

My question doesn't concern a follow on "in order to what". As I've explained it is a question about knowledge. You guys seem to be more interested in discussing how you find salvation, which I guess is understandable, you are Christians but it isn't actually the point of this thread

But you seem to be saying no, it is not possible to know everything that could be a sin, if I'm reading correctly.

This would seem to contrast antiskeptic's view that you know what is or isn't a sin through your conscience.

Any overlap between your two views?

Soul Winner

antiskeptic wrote: »

Firstly let me stress that my comments refer to the situation for Christians only. The issue of a (currently) lost person being equipped with a knowledge of good and evil is a separate one.

The place of faith in all this needs illuminating.

It may help if you were to picture faith as the bible views it - rather than in the way an atheist would typically view it. The bible views faith as a substantial thing (albeit immaterial). Faith, says Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) is 'the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen'. A simple analogy would be to suppose faith a kind of petrol, the fuel that powers our engine so as to enable us to walk the Christian walk. If 'full of faith' I can resist sin more determinedly, I can withstand great persecution without hatred and bitterness building up. I could, like Nelson Mandela, truly forgive cruel captors after a half a lifetime of persecution (and so inspire others to forgive that cruelty too). And faith comes (as the bible tells us and as I experience it) from hearing the word of God.

Rather than get into the technicalities of how our fuel tank is filled by mere words on a page (suffice to say it's a supernatural occurance), just hold that thought in your head. The word of God produces faith in the believer.

Now we return to me faced with a decision about some or other act. I've the knowledge of good and evil which tells me that to carry out this act is a sinful thing. My desire is to pull away from performing this act but I've also got temptation pulling me into doing it. What will make the difference to the outcome if not the fuel available to power my will unto godliness? If I have no faith I'll fold under the pressure. If I'm faith-filled, I'll tell satan where to get off.

Good stuff. May I fine tune a little?

Faith is more like the key that starts the engine rather than the fuel that keeps it going. The ensuing power that drives the engine once it has been started by faith is the power of the Holy Spirit at work in the believer, the fuel if you like. There is a never ending supply of this fuel, and all we have to do to tap into it is make sure to keep the engine running, that is, maintain the faith action, and the faith action in our case is grabbing a promise of God that fits our earthly circumstances. If you need provision then the promise is that God will provide, one of God's names is Jehovah-Jirah (The LORD will provide). If your circumstance is one where you need healing (like mine at the moment) then one of His other names is Jehovah-Rapha. There are many such names and promises that people in all kinds of circumstances can grab in faith, they are always there awaiting the faith connection to be made. As soon as it is made the power starts flowing, when it is broken, the power ceases to flow, just like taking the key out of the ignition will stop the engine.

How do we appropriate these promises? Romans 10:10 says: "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

We claim the promises by believing in our hearts that God will bring them to pass and then verbally profess them with our mouths daily until He does. This is acting in faith on a promise of God. It is this kind of faith action that saves, and as long as we maintain this kind of action on a daily basis then the spirit will keep working in us and literally change our desires and deliver us from the power of sin. Last year's or last week's or even yesterday's faith is no use to us today.

The Word says: "Today if you will hear is voice harden not you heart as in the days pf provocation in the wilderness." Psalm 95:7-8 and Hebrews 3:15.

So as long as it is called 'Today' this is what we must do in order to stay saved. And as long as we do this we are not viewed from God's perspective as sinners. We are seen as just like Jesus even though we still have warring within us our old sinful natures. Only when we lay down the garment of this sinning flesh at death will the New man that has been built up in faith be raised to new life totally free of sin to be with Him forever. But we must keep the faith on a daily basis until that day arrives. That's why we must run as if to win the prize. No runner of any athletics race ever got a gold medal for nearly finishing the race.

Hebrews 11 states that many have gone before us not having obtained the promise down here. But they all went out hanging onto to the promise and are guaranteed to obtain it over there on that day.

I'll end with what the writer of the Hebrews letter says in chapter 12:

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart." Hebrews 12:1-2

antiskeptic

Wicknight wrote: »

But you seem to be saying no, it is not possible to know everything that could be a sin, if I'm reading correctly.

I'd note that I don't think it's possible to know in each and every circumstance whether something is a sin or not. I'm pointing out the general working of things but am not suggesting that the mechanism operates like a machine: churning out a yes/no answer to everything


I understand God's focus to be on our sanctification (our movement towards Christ-likeness and the use he can make of that in this/next world), not ensuring we avoid sin at every turn. Indeed, given the utter sinfulness of the world in which we live and the scars and distorted thinking that have crippled (and still cripple) us* it would make no sense to aim to ensure we avoid all sin. I would go further in suggesting that God leverages a Christians sin in the goal of further sanctification in much the same way as he leverages sin in the lost person to bring them to salvation in the first place.

If you picture sin as fire and doorways as avenues to further sancification then permitting fires to rage is an effective way to get people to go through doors


*Christians

This would seem to contrast antiskeptic's view that you know what is or isn't a sin through your conscience.

An example to the contrary. The bible isn't clear on whether sexual activity between a bethroth couple (before marriage) of a non-intercourse type is sinful. Did my struggle with that stem from God-given conscience or did it stem from church-tradition on the subject? I don't know. And so I plumped for working towards playing safe.

This to underline the non-mechanistic, non-linear nature of the Christian walk. The emphasis not so much being whether sin or not sin but on heart attitude to God. My tending towards abstaining from sexual activity before I was married was part driven by my desire to honour God. That would be something he'd cherish quite aside from the activity perhaps not being sinful.

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

My question doesn't concern a follow on "in order to what". As I've explained it is a question about knowledge. You guys seem to be more interested in discussing how you find salvation, which I guess is understandable, you are Christians

But you seem to be saying no, it is not possible to know everything that could be a sin, if I'm reading correctly.

This would seem to contrast antiskeptic's view that you know what is or isn't a sin through your conscience.

Any overlap between your two views?

Not really. We all have our own internal ideas of what we regard as being sinful. But there is no universal definition of sin, however, there is a universal sense of oughtness that we all have. We all posses an ought side to our natures, well all the sane among us anyway. Paul in the New Testament says that all things are lawful for him to do but all things are not expedient. In other words he has freedom do all things but he will not come into bondage to any of them. Not everyone has this level of freedom in spirit. Some people think that there are certain foods which are sinful to eat, but Paul didn't. Paul could eat anything he wanted and his conscience would not condemn him for it because he has been freed from the mental bondage to it through the power of the indwelt spirit in him by faith.

No so for others. Some people will not eat certain foods because they think it is sinful in Gods sight, even though God has already declared that He is not against the eating of such foods anymore. So for people who perceive eating such foods to be sinful (even though they are not from God's point of view), for them to eat it is sin for them. Because from their limited knowledge the thing is sinful, so for them to do it is presuppose a spirit of rebellion and disobedience to God. To be delivered from that mental bondage they must just keep close to God in faith and eventually through the inner workings of the Holy Spirit be delivered from the desires to do such things (like Paul) and find out that they are lawful to do after all. But by the time that happens they will no longer desire to do the things that they used to perceive to be wrong even though they never were wrong from God's perspective.

So there is a difference between knowing all the things which God considers sinful and the things which we internally consider to be sinful from our limited exposure to God's Word. All sin now is summed up as not having faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin! Which to answer another posters question in this thread about the woman Jesus told to go and sin no more. What He was telling her was to keep faith. Keeping faith will ensure that sin will no longer reign (it will still wage war though) in our mortal bodies. Loosing faith will result in the sinful nature regaining its stronghold over the sinner and will eventually result in death, but every new day that we find ourselves alive is a new opportunity to reach up in faith and grab hold of a promise of God in faith. It is the war of centuries, and tragically the enemy has and still is very successful in his sifting, because he is the God of this world and makes it much easier for us to doubt than to believe.