The door-to-door / commission-only jobs thread (super dooper mega merge)

Agent J

lala88 wrote: »

Im still waiting for you and the others to show us all the people who have lost money on that?

On this subject show us how theres companys are a scam? And all the money people lose?

You say its none of your business who the other poster worked with if so why are you posting then?

This thread is primarily directed at the MLM Commission only/ D2D jobs which have been given in the examples through out the thread.

I and others have set out my points and counter points to you repeatly.
I've provided links, data and sources back it up. I have just provided links to those posts in my previous ones and you have just ignored them all again.

On this subject if you actually read this thread and that Cobra link you would see exactly what I'm talking about.

You keep evading or ignoring anything you can't answer. Posing questions for further proof is not refuting anything. You provide no evidence or argument for your own position.

lala88

Agent J wrote: »

This thread is primarily directed at the MLM Commission only/ D2D jobs which have been given in the examples through out the thread.

I and others have set out my points and counter points to you repeatly.
I've provided links, data and sources back it up. I have just provided links to those posts in my previous ones and you have just ignored them all again.

On this subject if you actually read this thread and that Cobra link you would see exactly what I'm talking about.

You keep evading or ignoring anything you can't answer. Posing questions for further proof is not refuting anything. You provide no evidence or argument for your own position.

You and others make claims of it being a ''scam'' or ''falling into a trap'' do they force people to stay? are they locked up so they cant leave? You are making such claims. So show me a link where someone was forced into staying with one of theses compnays?

You've already said your bias on the subject so based on that why should you be listened to? Seeing as how you only give one said of the story and discount anyone who disagrees with you.

The good you ignore everything. You and others do plenty of it yourself. But of course its ok for you to do it, it just becomes a problem when you dont agree

Agent J

lala88 wrote: »

You and others make claims of it being a ''scam'' or ''falling into a trap'' do they force people to stay? are they locked up so they cant leave? You are making such claims. So show me a link where someone was forced into staying with one of theses compnays?

You are aware involuntary servitude is not a prerequisite for a scam right?

At this point I am convinced you are just strawmanning anything i say. (Look it up if you don't know the term).

I have already explained it at length. See previous posts. I even linked it in my other post. There are mutiple other links and posts through out this thread by other people worth reading.

lala88 wrote: »

You've already said your bias on the subject so based on that why should you be listened to? Seeing as how you only give one said of the story and discount anyone who disagrees with you.

Because i can admit when i'm wrong about something. It's called actually listening. The other poster made a point. I thought about it and amended my thinking on it. All D2D isn't nesscarily bad but the vast majority of jobs references on this thread have fallen into the scam terrority. Anything D2D and MLM is a scam and should be avoided.

lala88 wrote: »

The good you ignore everything. You and others do plenty of it yourself. But of course its ok for you to do it, it just becomes a problem when you dont agree

Now you just have a chip on your shoulder. You ask for evidence but nothing satisfies you. You then straw man or ignore anything which is said to you and then claim everyone is out to get you.

If you can't be bothered to at least read what is front of you then i really can't be bothered replying any more.

lala88

Agent J wrote: »

You are aware involuntary servitude is not a prerequisite for a scam right?

At this point I am convinced you are just strawmanning anything i say. (Look it up if you don't know the term).

I have already explained it at length. See previous posts. I even linked it in my other post. There are mutiple other links and posts through out this thread by other people worth reading.




Because i can admit when i'm wrong about something. It's called actually listening. The other poster made a point. I thought about it and amended my thinking on it. All D2D isn't nesscarily bad but the vast majority of jobs references on this thread have fallen into the scam terrority. Anything D2D and MLM is a scam and should be avoided.



Now you just have a chip on your shoulder. You ask for evidence but nothing satisfies you. You then straw man or ignore anything which is said to you and then claim everyone is out to get you.

If you can't be bothered to at least read what is front of you then i really can't be bothered replying any more.

How is it a scam? Explain? Do people have to pay money to get the job? You didn't answer if people are forced into the job, are they?

Its you that has the chip on there shoulder. Who are you to tell people what they should or shouldn't do? Plenty of sales jobs are commission only,

Nicker

Has anybody heard of Flawless Marketing in Limerick? I've an interview with them tomorrow. Not sure if I'd be willing towork on door to door sales especially if it is commission based?

Agent J

Nicker wrote: »

Has anybody heard of Flawless Marketing in Limerick? I've an interview with them tomorrow. Not sure if I'd be willing towork on door to door sales especially if it is commission based?

I thought i'd heard of them...

I'd be wary of them based on their own site

http://flawlessmarketing.ie/About/

There is nothing of substance there.

Another thread with minor experience of them

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76002777


A little bit of googling reveals this thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055623346

See the reference to Act Marketing?

This is their website. If you check the front page they say they are part of the Cobra group(This should be enough to raise massive red flags)

http://www.act-marketing-direct.com/contact.htm

The address is 39 Northumberland Avenue Dun Laoghaire, Co. Dublin
Ireland.

XR Marketing address is.... 39 Northumberland Avenue....

http://www.salesjobs.ie/companies/xr-marketing

And guess who is involved in XR Marketing ?

http://xrmarketing.com/Profile/View/4/Liam-Lawless/

Or in otherwords the MD of Flawless marketing

http://flawlessmarketing.ie/


My point is any company which ANY connection to the Cobra group should be treated with extreme caution.

These companies are like freaking wack a moles. They change names every few years when enough crud builds up on their reputation. There has been so many companies operating out of a certain capel St address for years.

Nicker

Agent J wrote: »

I thought i'd heard of them...

I'd be wary of them based on their own site

http://flawlessmarketing.ie/About/

There is nothing of substance there.

Another thread with minor experience of them

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76002777


A little bit of googling reveals this thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055623346

See the reference to Act Marketing?

This is their website. If you check the front page they say they are part of the Cobra group(This should be enough to raise massive red flags)

http://www.act-marketing-direct.com/contact.htm

The address is 39 Northumberland Avenue Dun Laoghaire, Co. Dublin
Ireland.

XR Marketing address is.... 39 Northumberland Avenue....

http://www.salesjobs.ie/companies/xr-marketing

And guess who is involved in XR Marketing ?

http://xrmarketing.com/Profile/View/4/Liam-Lawless/

Or in otherwords the MD of Flawless marketing

http://flawlessmarketing.ie/


My point is any company which ANY connection to the Cobra group should be treated with extreme caution.

These companies are like freaking wack a moles. They change names every few years when enough crud builds up on their reputation. There has been so many companies operating out of a certain capel St address for years.

Wow thanks for all the info, I'll take note and be wary in future. I'll be skipping on the interview anyway tomorrow.

Agent J

Nicker wrote: »

Wow thanks for all the info, I'll take note and be wary in future. I'll be skipping on the interview anyway tomorrow.

Your welcome

There is no point in even giving it a shot with these type of companies. They have no redeeming features and will just try to sucker you in. They feed on high staff turnover.

Unless you have nothing else to do for the day and want to see exactly how they operate.... *Ahem*

Not that I have ever done that. Really.

El Inho

I've made comments on this page before saying to give it a go etc.

I want to chance my opinion a little. Give it a go if you have no commitments/life/friends/food/desire to live.

The more I think back to my experience the more I realise that the job is horrendous and children in sweat shops possibly have a better time of it. I was one of the lucky ones who made quite a pretty penny. But nearly lost my missus over it and crashed my car (my own pocket paid this).

I still ended up in the plus, but I've seen people fired because they were so bad they owed the "company" money. Such is the system in operation.

Is there any petition available to ban door-to-door?

Some of the stuff we were trained to do bordered on harrasment and scare mongering.

If anyone wants to pm me for my personal experience, I would gladly endulge further

GazL0871117

Eoin wrote: »

Please be careful what terms you use, this thread has been a massive pain to moderate. Crap job does not necessarily mean a scam.

As an aside, plenty of sole traders have to work the hours they're told to.

Have worked in one of these 'Demon' companies for over 2 years. I have been promoted to owner or a company for six months. I would just like to clarify a couple of things, there is a lot of prejudice floating around.
1) Door to door sales:
There is nothing wrong with door to door sales, it is one of the most traditional ways of doing business and to this day is a multi-billion euro industry. It is NOT for everyone, there is clearly a massive risk taken in sacrificing a set wage but it does allow those who are good enough / dedicated enough to live an extremely comfortable life as long as they know that you'll have good days and bad, like any SME owner. I really don't think it is fair to knock something just because you think your too good being bored to death on a meager wage and don't really have what it takes to begin with!(Why comment on something you have no clue about/wouldn't be able for)

2)Clients:
Most of our companies our huge firms with a massive presence all over the country and some internationally from tech to charity.Ask yourself this, why do they use companies like ours? Because it works, they don't get a free service, they could do it themselves but they choose to because they know companies like Cobra and the subordinates generate results!They would not pay to have no return. These clients have been with us for more than a decade in a lot of cases!

3)Quality:
Products with little or no value to end user have no place in the business, it would mean no sales, low morale, angry clients and angry owners like myself. The services we provide include top end alarm systems, tv packages and energy usually at a massively reduced price for the customer, many people would have signed up for the exact same service for a significantly higher price the same day throughout the country.The reps are trained in terms of product just as highly as anyone else.That is why there are very high numbers of sales and why there is genuine value to be had if you just got the wax out of your ears, the padestal out from under you and actually gave them a chance to speak as opposed to slamming a door in a 'god-like/clown-like manner'. Customer service is key for us!

4)People:
Best people I ever met, looked down on all the time by some clowns but thankfully don't let the circus get to them. I entered this area after a 1:1 business degree and having worked as a business development manager for a fairly established computer, phone and tablet company based in hollyhill in County Cork. I can catagorically tell you there is no fraudulent activity involved whatsoever, our money is made through a quality of person, promotion and service, cancellations = no money. I can also tell you that even as a rep I regularly made four figures a week and my lowest earning week was over 400 eur. Now that's more money than a lot of other professions earn so I think a piece of humble pie is in order.

P.S.
I am expecting a flood of hopeless retaliations to this but I have laid out my experience in the market. If someone with a brain and some experience wishes to engage in a civilized debate, by all means... For those wanting a food fight go find your ringleader and tell him its time for bed, you've got an audience to perform for at tomorrow's circus!

;-)

El Inho

May I ask how much of a personal life you have enjoyed outside this job in the past two years? Not including being shipped to Portugal for a week to be filled with more nonsense, or to be promised far away trips to Dubai which never come. Also remember that it is only 'owners', and please do use that term in inverted commas, who get selected to go.

I'm sorry man/woman, but those who are in as deep as you upset me even more that the guys who fail week after week and eventually just drop out.

I was good at this for 6 months, made good money, but then realised the whole thing just reeked and brain washing nonsense. The job could actually be done honestly, and I often wondered why people hated seeing me coming to their door. It's because they know we're trained to spout nonsense. I sold so many alarms to people who didn't need it or didn't realise it wasn't the system for them because i believed I was doing the right thing...

The whole system is dirty, and I wouldnt trust those at the top of the pile whom handle the money and wages one bit.

I honestly believe the government should step in and outlaw door to door...would bring a tear of joy to my eye to know people aren't doing this work anymore and that people won't be bothered anymore.

Plus the way you carry yourself is that of someone who has lost all grasp of the real world...you actually believe you're making it...that this is it...trips all around the world...funded by the poor shower of eejits on the low levels who dont even realise its being taken out of their pocket.

The whole thing sickens me looking back at it. Your last few sentences their are the reason I'm very close to public campaigns against these places of 'employment'. The whole thing is rotten.

GazL0871117

You could ask about my personal life which is just fine btw but this thread is about the marketing companies. The fact that you sold people misleadingly has nothing to do with anyone other than you. I know that misleading is actually a cause for termination in this business. You can play the brainwash card all you want but at the end of the day it was yourself who did those things, Company policy is to never sell to an OAP unless there is a family member that can come over and verify everything. Couples are to be talked to together there is no running it by the wife and not the husband we won't come in the door unless both are there. I never mentioned anything about trips anywhere so not sure where your getting your information from and I ensure all me reps act in an honest and transparent manner otherwise they won't get paid. You may have been good at it for 6 months using dirty tactics and just were not able doing it honestly. It's people like you I hope come under cyber legislation for airing crap all over the www

GazL0871117

You could ask about my personal life which is just fine btw but this thread is about the marketing companies. The fact that you sold people misleadingly has nothing to do with anyone other than you. I know that misleading is actually a cause for termination in this business. You can play the brainwash card all you want but at the end of the day it was yourself who did those things, Company policy is to never sell to an OAP unless there is a family member that can come over and verify everything. Couples are to be talked to together there is no running it by the wife and not the husband we won't come in the door unless both are there. I never mentioned anything about trips anywhere so not sure where your getting your information from and I ensure all my reps act in an honest and transparent manner otherwise they won't get paid. You may have been good at it for 6 months using dirty tactics and just were not able doing it honestly. It's people like you I hope come under cyber legislation for airing crap all over the www

Agent J

You're claiming to work for the type of company in this thread? Ok i'll bite.

Which company do you work for?

There is a very good reason I'm asking this. It is probably a subsidary of a previously referenced company on here. At the least it's probably newish.

If everyone is as upstanding as you say then what do you have to fear from revealing it?

GazL0871117 wrote: »

Have worked in one of these 'Demon' companies for over 2 years. I have been promoted to owner or a company for six months.

How does one get promoted to owner?

Techinicaly you aren't an employee of your firm so i don't see how you could get "promoted".

If you are an owner of something then you are the top level so there is no one to promote you.

Is it just a rank/title?

GazL0871117 wrote: »

I would just like to clarify a couple of things, there is a lot of prejudice floating around.

With very good reason as outlined at length in previous posts.

GazL0871117 wrote: »

1) Door to door sales:
There is nothing wrong with door to door sales

Granted. But that alone isn't the problem with it.

GazL0871117 wrote: »

2)Clients:
Most of our companies our huge firms with a massive presence all over the country and some internationally from tech to charity.Ask yourself this, why do they use companies like ours?

Simple outsourcing. They probably don't even know who is selling their crap.
From their point of view they don't care how they get sales or what methods are used to get them. Your type of companies are just cannon fodder. Hence why they end up changing their name so damn often. They also get to have "plausible denability" over any of your actions as you are just an outsource person and not their employee.

Now by your companies quoting larger companies is using what is known at the "Halo" effect. If XXXX are using us then we must be good. It's like Banners Broker using Mastercards. "It can't be a scam if mastercard are involved.... "

GazL0871117 wrote: »

3)Quality:
Products with little or no value to end user have no place in the business,

Total bollox. You'll sell whatever you are given.

GazL0871117 wrote: »

4)People:
Best people I ever met, looked down on all the time by some clowns but thankfully don't let the circus get to them. I entered this area after a 1:1 business degree and having worked as a business development manager for a fairly established computer, phone and tablet company based in hollyhill in County Cork.

If your business degree didn't teach you to spot this kinda scam then i'd be asking for your money back.

Seriously though. Lets go over what you missed. And here is from a post i prepared earlier....

Agent J wrote: »

They are all variants on a similar pyrimad-esque theme though.

Standard Pyrimad involves no product and has been made illegal.

MLM(Multilevel Marketing) involves a product which normally irrelevant. However there might be some legit product (say a well known new electicity company) which gives the impression that this is a real company.

It's still the same model however you cut it. Either the person higher up or the office gets a %, there is no staff protection, same marketing fluff, no real innovation/substance, social programming and... most "staff" don't make min wage.


Any "Business" not offering a basic salary or even the protection of employee status has no long term interest in their "staff". The idea is to replace the normal relationship of money/security with longer term hopes of higher reward & the social programming to build loyality. This is why it is important to have a constant supply of new staff because most people won't stick around long enough. They also do this to get around employement law & the responsabilities involved.

If you are the top of this company you get a cut of the people you hire. Or their sales office or whatever. The point is some % of the money goes up the line from an office to the person. The movitiation is to build more offices & more offices so that litte % from a lot of staff adds up for those at the top.
The idea is to get big quick(hence all the promises 6 months you'll earn X, 12 months you'll earn 2x). And of course after 6 months or so you won't have to do the door to door. And no one mentions of course that there is only so many housing estates you can go knocking on doors with the same product..

It's very easy to hide behind legitimate business tactics such as marketing,training,expansion,networking. This is what covers the social programming/brainwashing part. They won't offer what their salary plans are upfront or what the actual job involves. There is usually a claim of having some "big" name customers as well but its normally because they are a in "network" affiliate program so someone in other office(another country) might have once talked with someone at Disney(No implication meant on Disney whatsoever) this is what the claim is based on. Take a look at their website and you'll see some wishy-washy aspirational fluff written by someone who probably flunked 1st year marketing. There is very little susbstance to it.

Scratch the surface you'll find very little people make money from this. At a guess based on normal MLM i'd say you'd be lucky if 10% make any real money (Anything above min wage). A lot of these companies you really have to dig to get the information out of them.

Finally,

You're trying to defend Cobra group? Really?

http://www.ripoffreport.com/corrupt-companies/cobra-group/cobra-group-deceptive-liars-a-c85c6.htm

Take a read of that link and go have a good think about things.
Get now while you can.

irishjig69b

Interesting reading lots of fly bye night companies comming and going lots of them UPC/sky/Vodafone/Eircom/imagine etc etc etc alot of people fed up with answering the door to them I understand they are just trying to earn a living but the horror stories from some so called employes is just crazy, if any1 lasted more than 6 months in theses jobs fair play to them

El Inho

I did exactly what I was trained to do. I often pulled out of sales because it just felt wrong. One gentleman bought an alarm system from me and I tried my hardest not to sell him one for the simple reason he was elderly and I was concerned he didn't know what I was selling him. My boss sent me back out to him to close close close...its practically in the job description that you sell and ask questions later.

You know, I could argue till the cows come home about this, but I'm more than happy to be out of the business and working on my own progression.

If you are genuinely happy working for one of these companies goooooood luck to ya. You are very good at what you do...I can see that already by your ability to side step and 'turn' what ever i say to your advantage.

And what ever I say about these damned companies on here, I would publically say without any hiding of my identity. I would welcome the likes of yourself to try defend the idea that this crap should be outlawed.

You call to houses far too late. I do not care what the law states, 9pm is too late.
You pressure people into sales. (Oh no this offer leaves with me today. You can call up tomorrow and you can't get it - me hole)
The handling of wages and money is shady at the VERY least.
Noone pays taxes.
You take people in and spit them out as it suits.

The people doing door to door are not the lowest specimens on the planet...simply out trying to earn a buck. The real people who disgust me are the likes of yourself who abuse their position and manipulate people to their own benefit.

FIN.

El Inho

And Agent J, absolute top post. I'm too riled up to argue this, but your post is top notch on why this MLM style 'business' stinks.

GazL0871117

El spearo, could you please elaborate on my manipulation of people? I am not hiding anything this is simply the medium I came across online. If the people you worked for were forcing you to sell to vunerable people then they shouldn't have and that was wrong.

8:30pm is cut off time and anyone that does call after that should be reported.
If it is a promotional offer then its fully disclosed, this is not pressure this is how it works, if the individual likes the offer they can go for it and if they don't they don't. If you could give me an example of when people could call later and get the same deal then by all means be my guest.

Reps get paid on a fortnightly basis and all payments are above board, before signing up they are told how to register for tax and are told it is up to them to handle not exactly rocket science nor
shady plenty of self employed have the ability to do so.

We take people in, the leave as they choose to enter, get real.

Agent J

GazL0871117 wrote: »

El spearo, could you please elaborate on my manipulation of people? I am not hiding anything this is simply the medium I came across online. If the people you worked for were forcing you to sell to vunerable people then they shouldn't have and that was wrong.

Name of the company you work for please.

I've already laid out everything which is wrong with your company business model. Would you care to respond?

GazL0871117

Agent J wrote: »

You're claiming to work for the type of company in this thread? Ok i'll bite.

Which company do you work for?

There is a very good reason I'm asking this. It is probably a subsidary of a previously referenced company on here. At the least it's probably newish.

If everyone is as upstanding as you say then what do you have to fear from revealing it?



How does one get promoted to owner?

Techinicaly you aren't an employee of your firm so i don't see how you could get "promoted".

If you are an owner of something then you are the top level so there is no one to promote you.

Is it just a rank/title?



With very good reason as outlined at length in previous posts.



Granted. But that alone isn't the problem with it.



Simple outsourcing. They probably don't even know who is selling their crap.
From their point of view they don't care how they get sales or what methods are used to get them. Your type of companies are just cannon fodder. Hence why they end up changing their name so damn often. They also get to have "plausible denability" over any of your actions as you are just an outsource person and not their employee.

Now by your companies quoting larger companies is using what is known at the "Halo" effect. If XXXX are using us then we must be good. It's like Banners Broker using Mastercards. "It can't be a scam if mastercard are involved.... "



Total bollox. You'll sell whatever you are given.




If your business degree didn't teach you to spot this kinda scam then i'd be asking for your money back.

Seriously though. Lets go over what you missed. And here is from a post i prepared earlier....




Finally,

You're trying to defend Cobra group? Really?

http://www.ripoffreport.com/corrupt-companies/cobra-group/cobra-group-deceptive-liars-a-c85c6.htm

Take a read of that link and go have a good think about things.
Get now while you can.

Hi Agent J,
My company has not been mentioned in the thread however I am in the industry.
I don’t wish to give the name out of the pure fact that this thread is a slaughter house and unfairly so. To answer your questions:

I am basing my info on my experience both on the field and off it, one gets promoted to owner through sales consistency, good customer service, taking newcomers with them onto the field and getting them comfortable with the concept, as time goes on you become head of a crew of people and if you continue to maintain good and consistent sales levels along with good customer service to can be promoted to own your own firm.

It is a progression that is mapped out from the beginning, yes you are right in the sense that you are not directly an employee but because you are going out representing a client you are contractually bound to fulfill the clients wishes in terms of customer service, how you conduct yourself with people etc. There is clauses in these contracts for things such as scare-mongering tactics which are strictly prohibited and will always lead to termination should someone choose to resort to that. If promoted to owner you are given your own premises and are responsible for recruitment and sales in the territory.

Clients do indeed know very well who is selling their product, weekly conference calls with department heads and directors would indicate so, on top of the fact that they very much care how they get sales as I have said before cancellations etc have a direct effect on their bottom line.

Now in regard to this “Halo” effect you speak of, I haven’t quoted any larger companies but what I have said is that we do have contracts with big firms
In different sectors who would not use the likes of us if there was not an ROI.
This does not just stop at financials, but also in terms of positive/negative feedback.
Why would anyone pay for services that would directly impact adversely on a brand?!

Quality: You say total bollox, I say total bollox to you on that front. The services/products we offer have an intrinsic value associated with them in terms of price, this is an area in which I can guarantee you that. Being able to offer these services at a price cheaper than the firm itself brings tremendous value along with it. Don’t preach what you don’t practice.

My education/experience I can assure you would blow you out of the water so with respect lets stick to the topic at hand.

And in relation to the MLM products being irrelevant could not be further from the truth, our clients in the energy, security and entertainment industries are market leader, many of which I would be confident you already have in your own home.
The basis behind it is offering the products at a cheaper price gaining the company more customers over the long run in the form of subscriptions. Staff are made aware of the commission basis throughout and are free to leave from training week. What they are also made aware of it is not for everybody, some will be quite successful from it others won’t. Finally, in relation to the ripoffreport I could write something of similar lines about companies in the majority of sectors in the country, why not have a look at what some of the reps have to say for themselves at glassdoor.com

http://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Appco-Group-EI_IE407500.11,22.htm

Agent J

GazL0871117 wrote: »

Hi Agent J,
My company has not been mentioned in the thread however I am in the industry.
I don’t wish to give the name out of the pure fact that this thread is a slaughter house and unfairly so.

Quite deservably so.

GazL0871117 wrote: »

To answer your questions:

I am basing my info on my experience both on the field and off it, one gets promoted to owner through sales consistency, good customer service, taking newcomers with them onto the field and getting them comfortable with the concept, as time goes on you become head of a crew of people and if you continue to maintain good and consistent sales levels along with good customer service to can be promoted to own your own firm.

This actually isn't answering anything.

I ask again. How does one get promoted to own their own company?

It's doesnt make logical sense. Unless it's a rank within the company but...they aren't employed

GazL0871117 wrote: »

It is a progression that is mapped out from the beginning, yes you are right in the sense that you are not directly an employee but because you are going out representing a client you are contractually bound to fulfill the clients wishes in terms of customer service, how you conduct yourself with people etc.

See every single point i made about removing the normal working relationship and trying to replace it with social programming.

The "Staff" memeber has no protections in law from your company. You have no obligation and have a high rate of staff turnover as a result. You try to hide this by saying "Well not everyone is cut out for this..." or some such.
Truth is your business model only works with a high degree of staff turnover.

You need a lot of people at the bottom of the pyrimad to feed the % of sales up to the top people.

GazL0871117 wrote: »

Clients do indeed know very well who is selling their product, weekly conference calls with department heads and directors would indicate so, on top of the fact that they very much care how they get sales as I have said before cancellations etc have a direct effect on their bottom line.

They don't know and they don't care.

GazL0871117 wrote: »

Now in regard to this “Halo” effect you speak of, I haven’t quoted any larger companies but what I have said is that we do have contracts with big firms

You are either misunderstand or are trying to obfusticate.

Companies like yours try to give themselves an air of being legit by saying they are selling Sky, Airtricity or Eircom (Again not implying anything aganist those named companies. You use a well known brand to not only try to sell to the customer but to sell to the potential employees.

"If they are selling Sky etc then they have to be a real company"

GazL0871117 wrote: »

Quality: You say total bollox, I say total bollox to you on that front. The services/products we offer have an intrinsic value associated with them in terms of price, this is an area in which I can guarantee you that.

Well yeah. A penny sweet has an instrinsic value of... a penny.

My point is if you don't have Sky or whatever else it is you are trying to get people to sign up to. They will have you selling crap toys ,aftershave or makeup door to door. They will sell anything a la Del boy.

GazL0871117 wrote: »

My education/experience I can assure you would blow you out of the water so with respect lets stick to the topic at hand.

You haven't actually answered anything yet.

GazL0871117 wrote: »

And in relation to the MLM products being irrelevant could not be further from the truth, our clients in the energy, security and entertainment industries are market leader, many of which I would be confident you already have in your own home.

And again you aren't answering anything. This is just poor marketing speak.

You are just trying to use the Halo effect again.

"We work with market leaders so therefore we are a Market leader"

GazL0871117 wrote: »

The basis behind it is offering the products at a cheaper price gaining the company more customers over the long run in the form of subscriptions. Staff are made aware of the commission basis throughout and are free to leave from training week. What they are also made aware of it is not for everybody, some will be quite successful from it others won’t.

No what you want is as many staff at the lower levels as possible. A lot of people cop on pretty fast that it is a scam and leave so you have a high staff turn over. You need to cover this fact of course.

GazL0871117 wrote: »

Finally, in relation to the ripoffreport I could write something of similar lines about companies in the majority of sectors in the country,

Ah yes. The old "Well Anyone can say anything" defence. Then do so. But this is about D2D MLM.

Why is there such bad press out there about Cobra Group?

GazL0871117 wrote: »

why not have a look at what some of the reps have to say for themselves at glassdoor.com

http://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Appco-Group-EI_IE407500.11,22.htm

22 "Reviews" world wide with a 55% approval rating on a site.. Uh Huh.
That's the best you have?

Oh Excellent! You work for an Appco group company. Answers my question thank you.

Otherwise known as the company Cobra had to set up because their name has gotten such a bad reputation.


Alright. Now we have something to work with.

http://www.appcogroupireland.ie/network.php

Take a look at what is down in Co Tipperary ( By accident i'm sure since the address given is Sligo)

It's Flawless Marketing... The very company i spoke about only a few pages back.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83736929&postcount=759

And i see a few other familar names and addresses on that list.


Why do such reputable companies have to change their name so often?

Freaking Whackamoles.

Now, lets go right back to the stuff you missed.... again

MLM - Multi Level Marketing.
Commission Only
Door to Door

This is a good and detailed explainer of MLM and whats wrong with it. It was written over 20 years ago and is still pretty bang on the money. Also there are further good links at the bottom for it.

http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html

These companies operate a pyrimad structure in which the higher up you are the more of a cut you get from the downline.

MLM is used to cover the fact that this is a straight up pyrimad scheme. The product itself here is a distraction for the "staff" because it actually doesn't matter to the model. All that matters is you have as many people selling X as possible.

Now, you can't afford to pay them min wage to do it. It would cost too much and leave you open to those pesky labour laws. So you move the risk for tax etc from your company to the "staff" by calling them "Independent Contractors" . However you try to get around this by saying its "Commission Only". Which actually sounds pretty poor but you sell that by saying people will earn 4 figures a week and be running their own company in 6 months /1 year. Not only that but they will get a % from all the sales their team makes.

Free money for other peoples work. Great! All you have to do is work hard now and it will pay off later. That's the carrot you hold out in front of people.

In order to reinforce that you hold nothing but meetings and staff nights out all the time so their lives begin to revolve around the company. They don't have time to think outside of it & ask questions. They work 6/7 days a week for 12 hours and then socialise with the same people so any undue influence can be kept at bay.

Hence why the other poster was asking you about your personal life.


Similar to the paying staff min wage it would make no sense to have any sort of large premises to do business. A small office will suffice. So you send your "staff" out going door to door to people. You don't even cover their costs It's more cost effective from your companies point of view to use people as cannon fodder.

You prey on desperate people looking for honest work and feed them a bunch of lies. As soon as they cop on and leave you pretend that they never existed and to anyone who asks in the company you just make up a reason along the lines of "They couldnt cut it", "They were too negative" etc etc.

Basically you remove all the risks to the company such as payroll, HR, Laws,tax etc and put it on the poor "staff" and then try to tell them that this is actually a good thing.

It's not a case that most people aren't cut out for it. It's that most people can see through it and won't bother.


It's basically a 3 card monte with the new "staff" being the patsy and their Team leader being the shill.

Now, with your 1:1 in business. Is that a sustainable business model?

Here's a few stories from the Mirror in the UK on Appco

http://blogadmin.mirror.co.uk/cgi-bin/mt522/mt-search.cgi?blog_id=49&tag=Cobra/Appco&limit=20

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2005/08/just-6-for-eight-days-work-for.html

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2010/08/cobra-group-makes-a-mint-while.html

BBC did a radio investigation a while back

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00vhdk2

Hell the Parliment in the UK is looking at banning D2D selling for energy companies because you are doing such a piss poor job

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmberr/32/3206.htm

Hell, go put Cobra (Or Appco) & Scam into google and knock yourself out.

GazL0871117

Agent J wrote: »

Quite deservably so.




This actually isn't answering anything.

I ask again. How does one get promoted to own their own company?

It's doesnt make logical sense. Unless it's a rank within the company but...they aren't employed




See every single point i made about removing the normal working relationship and trying to replace it with social programming.

The "Staff" memeber has no protections in law from your company. You have no obligation and have a high rate of staff turnover as a result. You try to hide this by saying "Well not everyone is cut out for this..." or some such.
Truth is your business model only works with a high degree of staff turnover.

You need a lot of people at the bottom of the pyrimad to feed the % of sales up to the top people.




They don't know and they don't care.




You are either misunderstand or are trying to obfusticate.

Companies like yours try to give themselves an air of being legit by saying they are selling Sky, Airtricity or Eircom (Again not implying anything aganist those named companies. You use a well known brand to not only try to sell to the customer but to sell to the potential employees.

"If they are selling Sky etc then they have to be a real company"



Well yeah. A penny sweet has an instrinsic value of... a penny.

My point is if you don't have Sky or whatever else it is you are trying to get people to sign up to. They will have you selling crap toys ,aftershave or makeup door to door. They will sell anything a la Del boy.



You haven't actually answered anything yet.



And again you aren't answering anything. This is just poor marketing speak.

You are just trying to use the Halo effect again.

"We work with market leaders so therefore we are a Market leader"




No what you want is as many staff at the lower levels as possible. A lot of people cop on pretty fast that it is a scam and leave so you have a high staff turn over. You need to cover this fact of course.





Ah yes. The old "Well Anyone can say anything" defence. Then do so. But this is about D2D MLM.

Why is there such bad press out there about Cobra Group?




22 "Reviews" world wide with a 55% approval rating on a site.. Uh Huh.
That's the best you have?

Oh Excellent! You work for an Appco group company. Answers my question thank you.

Otherwise known as the company Cobra had to set up because their name has gotten such a bad reputation.


Alright. Now we have something to work with.

http://www.appcogroupireland.ie/network.php

Take a look at what is down in Co Tipperary ( By accident i'm sure since the address given is Sligo)

It's Flawless Marketing... The very company i spoke about only a few pages back.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83736929&postcount=759

And i see a few other familar names and addresses on that list.


Why do such reputable companies have to change their name so often?

Freaking Whackamoles.

Now, lets go right back to the stuff you missed.... again

MLM - Multi Level Marketing.
Commission Only
Door to Door

This is a good and detailed explainer of MLM and whats wrong with it. It was written over 20 years ago and is still pretty bang on the money. Also there are further good links at the bottom for it.

http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html

These companies operate a pyrimad structure in which the higher up you are the more of a cut you get from the downline.

MLM is used to cover the fact that this is a straight up pyrimad scheme. The product itself here is a distraction for the "staff" because it actually doesn't matter to the model. All that matters is you have as many people selling X as possible.

Now, you can't afford to pay them min wage to do it. It would cost too much and leave you open to those pesky labour laws. So you move the risk for tax etc from your company to the "staff" by calling them "Independent Contractors" . However you try to get around this by saying its "Commission Only". Which actually sounds pretty poor but you sell that by saying people will earn 4 figures a week and be running their own company in 6 months /1 year. Not only that but they will get a % from all the sales their team makes.

Free money for other peoples work. Great! All you have to do is work hard now and it will pay off later. That's the carrot you hold out in front of people.

In order to reinforce that you hold nothing but meetings and staff nights out all the time so their lives begin to revolve around the company. They don't have time to think outside of it & ask questions. They work 6/7 days a week for 12 hours and then socialise with the same people so any undue influence can be kept at bay.

Hence why the other poster was asking you about your personal life.


Similar to the paying staff min wage it would make no sense to have any sort of large premises to do business. A small office will suffice. So you send your "staff" out going door to door to people. You don't even cover their costs It's more cost effective from your companies point of view to use people as cannon fodder.

You prey on desperate people looking for honest work and feed them a bunch of lies. As soon as they cop on and leave you pretend that they never existed and to anyone who asks in the company you just make up a reason along the lines of "They couldnt cut it", "They were too negative" etc etc.

Basically you remove all the risks to the company such as payroll, HR, Laws,tax etc and put it on the poor "staff" and then try to tell them that this is actually a good thing.

It's not a case that most people aren't cut out for it. It's that most people can see through it and won't bother.


It's basically a 3 card monte with the new "staff" being the patsy and their Team leader being the shill.

Now, with your 1:1 in business. Is that a sustainable business model?

Here's a few stories from the Mirror in the UK on Appco

http://blogadmin.mirror.co.uk/cgi-bin/mt522/mt-search.cgi?blog_id=49&tag=Cobra/Appco&limit=20

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2005/08/just-6-for-eight-days-work-for.html

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2010/08/cobra-group-makes-a-mint-while.html

BBC did a radio investigation a while back

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00vhdk2

Hell the Parliment in the UK is looking at banning D2D selling for energy companies because you are doing such a piss poor job

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmberr/32/3206.htm

Hell, go put Cobra (Or Appco) & Scam into google and knock yourself out.

Agent J, I have answered your questions yet you continue to say I am not answering them. At the end of the day if the products sold didn't have a value it wouldn't be a business as nobody would buy. There is nothing wrong with what we do, we don't operate in the UK, that parliament minute was in relation to savings for the consumer nothing else.What difference does a size of an office make to a company come on talk about clinching at straws. Rest of your links refer to senior staff and founders of companies earning more than people on the field.The people on the field are made aware of whats involved both financially and legally so there is nothing to see through. I can clearly see your mind is made up on the matter and I'm not going to go on a roundabout discussion with you. That glassdoor information comes from people that have something you don't on this issue, experience.
That data is from the people we "prey" on apparently and why am I not surprised that the only thing you saw on that page was 55%...

The 55% you saw was who would recommend the company to a friend.
The actual figure was 3.5/5 satisfaction rate = 70%

“Great opportunity!”
Current Employee in Singapore (Singapore) – Reviewed Mar 8, 2013
Pros – A place with great opportunity if you believe hard work pays. Great travelling opportunities. Promotion by merit not by seniority. Pay comes in weekly. Fun and dynamic working environment. Minimal politics. Good company culture.
Cons – Hard work. Full commissions basis. Face to face direct interactions with customers. You need to have a strong mental strength to endure the rejections.
Advice to Senior Management – NA

“An awesome place to learn sales & marketing especially BTL Marketing”
Former Assistant Branch Manager in Jakarta (Indonesia) – Reviewed Dec 22, 2012
Pros – Fabulous sales techniques that can be learn from here
Opportunity to travel around the world
Open wide career advancement
Great place for self development
Cons – Need more balancing between office hour and personal social life
Need to more clear on salary

“self motivation, inspiration and leadership in true terms is what u learn without fail”
Former Employee – Reviewed Oct 12, 2012
Pros – experiences is amazing, u learn to talk to strangers, crack deals in 2 mins, meet all kind of people whom you wouldn't even dream of meeting, life changing experience.
Cons – appco is not for lazy, employee mentality and job seeking kind of people, it requires ur best efforts n hard working nature everyday without fail, u cant get complacent
Advice to Senior Management – there are no advice as such, but u can hav more internal monitoring.

Sounds like they are really being molewhacked doesn't it?

El Inho

my favourite of them all....the brain washing regardin - this isnt for the lazy..its for those who want success...yeah...id rather be working down maccy d's on a reasonable hourly wage.

most people who do these jobs work out their wages to be below minimum wage...

Agent J

GazL0871117 wrote: »

Sounds like they are really being molewhacked doesn't it?

You have answered nothing about the MLM/Pyrimad aspect of it.
You have answered nothing about the "Staff" high turnover/policy
You have answered nothing about the Business model.
You have answered nothing about the constant changing of companies & names.
You have answered nothing or attempted to defend Cobra.

Appco is part of Cobra which is UK based. Are you trying to tell me that Appco Ireland is a completely seperate company which just happens to have the same business model?

All you have done is attempt in poor marketing speak to pretend that you have a legitmate business and suppliers really do value you.

I have provided evidence, links & well reasoned response & you have replied with nothing.

You have provided a single piss poor website which only has questionable reviews at best.

You are providing primary evidence of the complete brainwashing which goes on in those companies so please keep it up.

Agent J

El Spearo wrote: »

my favourite of them all....the brain washing regardin - this isnt for the lazy..its for those who want success...yeah...id rather be working down maccy d's on a reasonable hourly wage.

most people who do these jobs work out their wages to be below minimum wage...

Actually... Companies like AMway only 10% of their "staff" make enough to live off. Other companies can be even lower.

Here is a handy short list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing#Income_levels

(Before anyone complains about a wiki link.. Follow the sources on that section)

El Inho

Agent J wrote: »

Actually... Companies like AMway only 10% of their "staff" make enough to live off. Other companies can be even lower.

Here is a handy short list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing#Income_levels

(Before anyone complains about a wiki link.. Follow the sources on that section)

"Roland Whitsell, a former business professor who spent 40 years researching and teaching the pitfalls of multilevel marketing": "You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone making over $1.50 an hour, (t)he primary product is opportunity. The strongest, most powerful motivational force today is false hope."

that just sums it up for me. applies to the job in Ireland big time.

In the morning if it were outlawed, I would feel sorry for the few people I know still doing the job...as they genuinely think this is the way forward in their lives...but I would have to go to the old office and laugh at the guys who peddle the bull to new recruits etc.

Agent J

El Spearo wrote: »

In the morning if it were outlawed, I would feel sorry for the few people I know still doing the job...as they genuinely think this is the way forward in their lives...but I would have to go to the old office and laugh at the guys who peddle the bull to new recruits etc.

I would love to have it outlawed but it's a very tricky beast. There is nothing legally wrong with most of what is done. Scams are always way ahead of the law.

By making the "staff" independant contractors you remove any responsability on the company. Any legal, tax or customer issues can be blamed on disposal staff with no legal liability to the company.

By using a product(any product) you can defend the charge of it being a pyrimad scheme by muddying the waters. It is by any reasonable standard a pyrimad model but proving that in a court of law is very tricky because of the structure of the company.

And when a company does eventually fall foul of the law or just gets too much of a bad name to attract any new recruits then you just shut down and reopen a new company. However changing physical address is harder than changing the company name so you can nail them that way at least.

The best thing we can do is to highlight exactly what is wrong with it and why. I don't mind engaging with people who have reasonable points (ie Commission only isn't always bad) but shills will come on sites like these and try to defend what is indefensable. They need to be shown up for the brainwashed drone that they are.

Thankfully they do a really good job all on their own with just a little bit of prodding.

irishjig69b

You 2 should just get a room :-)

GazL0871117

You've provided evidence, half of it is from the blog on the mirror... COME ON!
Come back to me when you can engage in a debate and not a shout louder than you forum... Idiots

Agent J

GazL0871117 wrote: »

You've provided evidence, half of it is from the blog on the mirror... COME ON!
Come back to me when you can engage in a debate and not a shout louder than you forum... Idiots

Resorting to name calling? Did they teach that in your Business degree?

You're going to sniff at links from the Mirror with that garbage website you provided?

There are other links & points which you have conviently ignored.

You still haven't tried to argue the MLM/Pyrimad aspect or constant need for the companies to change their identies.

Any particular reason why?