Londonderry car bomb

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Then why would they phone in a warning with a code word detailing where the bomb is and when it will go off?

I can see them giving up giving warnings sooner or later. They are going nowhere. Seems they won't be happy until they have killed more police officers.

Wolfe Tone

Einhard wrote: »

So that the RIRA refrain from targetting civilians out of a touching humanitarian concern is "a current political reality" is it?

That the shooting of two pizza delvery men is "not a black and white" issue is a current political reality now?

I don't think Mussolini actively supports the likes of the RIRA, and I never said that that was the case. I do think that he is far too ambivalent to their actions, and far too ready to obfuscate what are, in essence, black and white issues.

Why has this thread become about my good self?

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

I can see them giving up giving warnings sooner or later. They are going nowhere. Seems they won't be happy until they have killed more police officers.

I can see a warning being held back by the PSNI. I think giving the warnings to the PSNI gives the police too much power.

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Why has this thread become about my good self?

Its you in the abstract, really. What you stand for, the political camp you hail from. Most people in this country will unequivocally condemn the dissidents. Some others will say 'yeah but, no but', as Einhard put it. It isn't a coincidince that these people are of the Republican persuasion.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

Its you in the abstract, really. What you stand for, the political camp you hail from. Most people in this country will unequivocally condemn the dissidents. Some others will say 'yeah but, no but', as Einhard put it. It isn't a coincidince that these people are of the Republican persuasion.

But I have condemned them.

amacachi

eamo12 wrote: »

Chickens have come home to roost. There is no difference between this campaign and the 30 year IRA murderous campaign. Both want a 32 county 'socialist' republic and are prepared to murder and butcher to get their way. hopefully this (R)IRA will be brought to it's knees as well.

Sorry but I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing this. The IRA's original campaign had sweet **** all to do with setting up a republic, people joined as they were desperate because they saw little other option when their families and neighbours were being burned out of their houses. Many hadn't got a vote and protesting peacefully about it, well, we know how that turned out. Over time it morphed into something completely different and irrelevant, but it didn't start like the crap that's going on now.

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I can see a warning being held back by the PSNI. I think giving the warnings to the PSNI gives the police too much power.

They didn't give a warning to poor stephen carrol. Or those two soldiers.

ILA

KeithAFC wrote: »

They have families. They do their job to earn a living, to put food on the plate. They are no different from a person who works in a pub. Working for the state or not. They have no right at all to plant bombs.

What utter tripe.

While I abhor these attacks and am opposed to this type of pointless violence when there's no political planning behind it: servants in the coercive Arm of the State are not the same as ordinary people.

No way. Their primary function in either State is to prop up two illegitimate States, to keep ordinary people under control enforce so-called "Law and Order". There's no pussyfooting around that, regardless of what your position on things is.

ILA

KeithAFC wrote: »

They didn't give a warning to poor stephen carrol. Or those two soldiers.

What warning was needed? Maybe they should start outlining the risks on the Contract of Employment if they need a warning.

KeithAFC

ILA wrote: »

What utter tripe.

While I abhor these attacks and am opposed to this type of pointless violence when there's no political planning behind it: servants in the coercive Arm of the State are not the same as ordinary people.

No way. Their primary function in either State is to prop up two illegitimate States, to keep ordinary people under control enforce so-called "Law and Order". There's no pussyfooting around that, regardless of what your position on things is.

People are trying to live in peace, Northern Ireland is a state, matter if you like it or not and every state needs a police force. People join the PSNI as a way of making a living. No different than working in a pub.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I'm being entirely reasonable, and I have no wish to have a go at anyone. However, as I mentioned, there is a tendency amongst some posters here to condemn certain actions and groups, and then rationalise them to the point of explaining them away, That, in my opinion, is what Mussolini was engaging in. And to be honest, it is a common ploy amongst a certain category of Republicans (that's not meant in a pejorative way). They issue a condemnation of something, and then turn on the Vivky Pollard and "yeah but, no but..." in the name of "undertsanding. So, we get a situation where a poster attempts to state that there are shades of grey in the shooting of unarmed civilians, and ascribes "humanitarian" concerns to men who detonate bombs on our streets, murder police officers, and are responsible for the murder of over 30 civilians in Omagh. That and more is what I'm basing my assessment on. If you don't agree with it, fine. But it's not an unreasonable conclusion to reach.

Ok I think this all started over this post:

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Anyway, I would say that this attack shows a willingness of the dissidents to actually back up their words with actions. We all remember a few weeks ago when they said they would target banks? Well now they have.

Seems to be a clear attempt to gather support from the growing number of disillusioned socialist republicans. And it can easily be seen that many members of the public would either support an attack on the banks, or at least not shed any tears over a banks destruction.

Clearly the dissidents in question did not intend to kill anyone, ample warning was given, everyone was evacuated. This lends further weight to my theory that the dissidents have absolutely no aim under any circumstances to either harm or kill innocent civilians. Seemingly the dissidents have embarked on a campaign to gather public support. This attack coupled with the increase in "policing" and the dealing with of drug dealers clearly illustrates that.

Now I disagree with some of the conclusions, for one I don't think they were targeting the bank - think they were prob targeting the PSNI station but were wary of checkpoints or some other last minute problem. Bombing police stations in one small city wice in such a short space of time would be hugely embarrassing for PSNI/MI5 etc

However I like to discuss these things. I do agree they are looking to get public support and that they are not targeting civilians. I think that notion irks some people because it takes away from the image of senseless monsters killing for fun, therefore they think 'you're not participating in the popular view that they're all lunatics, you might as well be a supporter'

I do still have nothing but contempt for the actions of militant republicans, and I am well aware they are content putting innocent people at huge risk given the history of bombs in guerilla warfare.

If that makes you think I'm a supporter there is no point discussing this further.

This is an online bulletin board but the politics forum has special status so to speak. If you're going to post a reply to someone you should carefully read what they've said first and not just have a kneekerk reaction

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

People are trying to live in peace, Northern Ireland is a state, matter if you like it or not and every state needs a police force. People join the PSNI as a way of making a living. No different than working in a pub.

Ehh, what sort of pub do you go to? lol

KeithAFC

ILA wrote: »

What warning was needed? Maybe they should start outlining the risks on the Contract of Employment if they need a warning.

To say there is dissidents in the area and ready to attack. Something like that.

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Ehh, what sort of pub do you go to? lol

Its a job, its job is to keep law and order. What is so hard to understand about that?

Wolfe Tone

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ok I think this all started over this post:



Now I disagree with some of the conclusions, for one I don't think they were targeting the bank - think they were prob targeting the PSNI station but were wary of checkpoints or some other last minute problem. Bombing police stations in one small city wice in such a short space of time would be hugely embarrassing for PSNI/MI5 etc

Was it the RIRA that issued a statement a whie ago saying they would take on the banks?

However I like to discuss these things. I do agree they are looking to get public support and that they are not targeting civilians. I think that notion irks some people because it takes away from the image of senseless monsters killing for fun, therefore they think 'you're not participating in the popular view that they're all lunatics, you might as well be a supporter'

+1

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its a job, its job is to keep law and order. What is so hard to understand about that?

I wouldnt consider being a cop "just a job"

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I wouldnt consider being a cop "just a job"

But it is, regardless of the danger.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Einhard wrote: »

So that the RIRA refrain from targetting civilians out of a touching humanitarian concern is "a current political reality" is it?

That the shooting of two pizza delvery men is "not a black and white" issue is a current political reality now?

In that post I neither condemned or supported the actions - I was making a point about discussions here. My view is they don't target civilians but couldn't give a f*ck if they get caught up in the crossfire.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

But it is, regardless of the danger.

A cop is not the same as your average Joe. Much more power etc, responsibility. I would not consider them civilians, they are an arm of the state, in any country.

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

A cop is not the same as your average Joe. Much more power etc, responsibility. I would not consider them civilians, they are an arm of the state, in any country.

Being a police officer is a job because they get paid for what they do. Every state needs law and order.

Bottle_of_Smoke

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Was it the RIRA that issued a statement a whie ago saying they would take on the banks?

Them or OnE. Either way I'd put it down to either coincidence or they chose it as the best spot after the initial plan went wrong

Wolfe Tone

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Them or OnE. Either way I'd put it down to either coincidence or they chose it as the best spot after the initial plan went wrong

Fair enough. I would disagree though, because they had the warning set up a good while in advance, was no Omagh style panicked warnings.

Einhard

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ok I think this all started over this post:

No, it really started when I was informed that the RIRA don't target civilians out of humanitarian concerns. I accept they don't deliberately target them (although that only makes their actions only slightly less reprehensible), but I believe they do so out of a concern that such actions would damage their cause than anything else. Damage limitation as it were.

Further, Mussolini the stated that the shooting of two civilians was not a black and white issue. That type of obfuscation is dangerously close to defence of their actions. Unless someone can illuminate these shades of grey for me?

However I like to discuss these things. I do agree they are looking to get public support and that they are not targeting civilians. I think that notion irks some people because it takes away from the image of senseless monsters killing for fun, therefore they think 'you're not participating in the popular view that they're all lunatics, you might as well be a supporter'

I never said I think they're targetting civilians deliberately. i actually stated the opposite. Where I differ from Mussolini is in the reasons for them not doing so. he ascribes it to "humanitarian" reasons; in the light of other RIRA actions, you'' forgive me if I'm a tad more cynical.

I do still have nothing but contempt for the actions of militant republicans, and I am well aware they are content putting innocent people at huge risk given the history of bombs in guerilla warfare.

Amen. I don't think we differ all that much on any of this.

If that makes you think I'm a supporter there is no point discussing this further.

I don't know where you would get this from. i have issues with Mussolini said, but that doesn't mean I have similar issues with every person with a Republican mentality (again, not meant pejoratovely).

This is an online bulletin board but the politics forum has special status so to speak. If you're going to post a reply to someone you should carefully read what they've said first and not just have a kneekerk reaction

There's nothing knee jerk in what I wrote. I based it entirely on Mussolini's own words. And I have explained my reasoning entirely. please don;t accuse me of reflexive, non thinking respoonse just because I happen to hold a different opinion to you (and indeed, it doesn't appear that i do for the most part).

Einhard

ILA wrote: »

No way. Their primary function in either State is to prop up two illegitimate States, to keep ordinary people under control enforce so-called "Law and Order".

Get over yourself, and learn some respect for the democratic process while you're at it. The legitimacy of the Irish Republic is bestowed by opinion of the vast majority of her citizens, not by a disaffected rump.

Wolfe Tone

I do not think that the dissies should be looked at as if they are inhuman monsters. We should strive to understand them and their actions. Only by doing that can we hope to reach a solution.

amacachi

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Fair enough. I would disagree though, because they had the warning set up a good while in advance, was no Omagh style panicked warnings.

Aye, how many more bombs will they plant before one of them forgets to charge his phone or can't remember his pin?

Wolfe Tone

amacachi wrote: »

Aye, how many more bombs will they plant before one of them forgets to charge his phone or can't remember his pin?

They would want to be mega retards to use their own mobiles.

junder

ILA wrote: »

What utter tripe.

While I abhor these attacks and am opposed to this type of pointless violence when there's no political planning behind it: servants in the coercive Arm of the State are not the same as ordinary people.

No way. Their primary function in either State is to prop up two illegitimate States, to keep ordinary people under control enforce so-called "Law and Order". There's no pussyfooting around that, regardless of what your position on things is.

Utter crap those soldiers were only garrisoned, they have nothing to do with policing, they don't patrol the streets they simply. Ordered a pizza while killing time before heading to afghan the next morning for what they and their families thought would be their most dangerous part if their army career. Instead they were murdered outside the base that is thier home

Einhard

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I do not think that the dissies should be looked at as if they are inhuman monsters. We should strive to understand them and their actions. Only by doing that can we hope to reach a solution.

Sometimes there's a fine line between understanding and excusing. That's my point. I think labelling the shooting of pizza delivery men as "not black and white" crosses that line somewhat.

KeithAFC

James Barker was a 12 year old schoolboy from Ballintrae, Buncrana in county Donegal. His mother, who is Irish, is married to an English man. They moved to Buncrana in 1997 in order to get a better quality of life. The family has since moved back to England. James was a goalkeeper for his local school and was due to go to secondary school in September. James suffered severe head injuries in the bomb, and died shortly afterwards in hospital. His family waited 3 hours for confirmation of the news. He was buried in a joint service with his friends, Oran Doherty and Sean McLaughlin, in Buncrana. Thousands of people lined the streets of the town to pay their respects. His mother said "To see him lying there with half of his head gone and those beautiful green eyes looking out at me as if he was waiting for me was devastating. I never realised how green his eyes were. That image will stay with me for the rest of my life".

RIP james. This is what bombs do.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

RIP james. This is what bombs do.

FFS, should I pull up quotes about what has happened at the hands of the British state?

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

FFS, should I pull up quotes about what has happened at the hands of the British state?

No excuses for the RIRA.

Wolfe Tone

Einhard wrote: »

Sometimes there's a fine line between understanding and excusing. That's my point. I think labelling the shooting of pizza delivery men as "not black and white" crosses that line somewhat.

Yet again you are accusing me of supporting dissident activity?



Nothing is as black and white as it seems is it?

ILA

junder wrote: »

Utter crap those soldiers were only garrisoned, they have nothing to do with policing, they don't patrol the streets they simply. Ordered a pizza while killing time before heading to afghan the next morning for what they and their families thought would be their most dangerous part if their army career. Instead they were murdered outside the base that is thier home

I was actually only referring to the Police Service in that previous post, as I fully accept that currently serving soldiers are absolute and utterly permissible legitimate targets, whether in Ireland, Afghanistan or Iraq, it's no different.

As has been said, the respective illegitimate British and Irish regimes have been behind their fair share of State sanctioned massacres, which were part of officially sanctioned strategy using the works of Kitson and others. So I'm not going to condemn those who feel they should use force against force, even though I think it's the wrong strategy.

junder

KeithAFC wrote: »

Being a police officer is a job because they get paid for what they do. Every state needs law and order.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

But PSNI are not civilians though are they? Same as Guardaí are not either, servants of the state etc...


Not saying I support them being attacked either though, just to be clear.

Police are civilians

Denerick

ILA wrote: »

I was actually only referring to the Police Service in that previous post, as I fully accept that currently serving soldiers are absolute and utterly permissible legitimate targets, whether in Ireland, Afghanistan or Iraq, it's no different.

As has been said, the respective illegitimate British and Irish regimes have been behind their fair share of State sanctioned massacres, which were part of officially sanctioned strategy using the works of Kitson and others. So I'm not going to condemn those who feel they should use force against force, even though I think it's the wrong strategy.

Here we go again. Murder is not wrong in the abstract, its wrong because it doesn't make tactical sense.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

Here we go again. Murder is not wrong in the abstract, its wrong because it doesn't make tactical sense.

You can think of no situation in which killing may be necessary?

amacachi

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They would want to be mega retards to use their own mobiles.

For the time in which "he" would be using a phone it would be "his". Also I'm guessing you haven't heard of a few cases in the last year or two where people were caught doing just this, on a phone they'd had long enough for the Gardaí to be keeping up with, and then walked out of the Garda startion using the same phone the Gardaí has confiscated and handed back to them? Of course it happened that it was only "criminal" rather than "terrorist" charges they were being brought up on so it wouldn't have been too widely reported.

sligopark

London-Derry it is not. It is Derry City in County Derry.

Bomb left not by the IRA nor Provisionals but by the CIRA - Criminal IRA.

Bomb placement was off due to security - thankfully.

The laugh is the location Martin McGuinness gave out to those bombers and the inference of failure from an IRA commander who failed to bring anything to nationalists nor the poorer social classes of N. Ireland - calling them failures from the Tory Conference in Birmingham

A looser, liar and failure.

The Derry Dick.

Unfortunately many of those he lied to believed him and continue his fight and criminality today.

It seems they didn't share in his £26million pay off via the Ulster Bank robbery.

oscarBravo

This thread has a short shelf life if it's just going to spiral into the usual trench warfare.

Less personalisation of the debate would be no harm either.

FlutterinBantam

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I do not think that the dissies should be looked at as if they are inhuman monsters. We should strive to understand them and their actions. Only by doing that can we hope to reach a solution.

So you are asking me to understand why people with no mandate drive a car loaded with unstable explosives through a built up and try to destroy the peoples places of employment and wreck the economy of the area?


And this is the only way we can reach 'a solution'??

I think if most reasonable people read that they would have grave difficulty understanding that 'logic'

Police Chief Wiggum

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

You can think of no situation in which killing may be necessary?

in ireland, from antrim to annascaul, we live killing to God, there is no death penalty. Are these people inhuman? A policeman has had one of his legs blown off by a bomb they left under his seat in recent years. Another policeman is no longer playing with his children. he is dead. the cira/rira killed him. You mention reaching a solution? The solution reached some years back was the good friday agreement - endorsed by all voters from antrim to annascaul

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

You can think of no situation in which killing may be necessary?

Killing is occasionally necessary when we are left with no other choice with regards to our or our group self defence. These demented nutters seek murder as a moral virtue, they have no just case on which to base this campaign of terrorism. I just wish people like you would stop indulging them, if they had any scraping of intellectual vitality they wouldn't be doing what they are doing. I've said it before, these men want a busload of dead children because only that would bring back the troubles in all its gruesomeness, that is the end goal here, they want to provoke such an atrocity. They are like something out of the book of apocolypse.

Cú Giobach

Einhard wrote: »

Sometimes there's a fine line between understanding and excusing.

The difference between understanding something and excusing something is enormous. They are two utterly different concepts.
Stating the reason someone did something does not imply agreement with said action.

Wolfe Tone

The dissidents will not be stopped thrugh any other means than dialogue, or another Omagh. Those are the only ways imo.

They tried everything possible against the PIRA, internment etc etc, and none of it worked.

oscarBravo

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The dissidents will not be stopped thrugh any other means than dialogue...

...assuming the dissidents want to talk. So far, they only seem interested in killing or threatening to kill.

...or another Omagh.

Oh, great. We sit back and wait for them to "accidentally" massacre enough people to lose support. For a while. Because Omagh put paid to the dissident threat once and for all, didn't it?

Wolfe Tone

oscarBravo wrote: »

...assuming the dissidents want to talk. So far, they only seem interested in killing or threatening to kill.

Only one way to find out isn't there?

How do you propose in dealing with them then? Talking and negotiation worked before didn't it?

Oh, great. We sit back and wait for them to "accidentally" massacre enough people to lose support. For a while. Because Omagh put paid to the dissident threat once and for all, didn't it?

I never said to do that. Dialogue.

It has irreparably damaged it imo.

LordSutch

sligopark wrote: »

London-Derry it is not. It is Derry City in County Derry.

To many people its Londonderry, and to many others its Derry, same with Dingle/ An Daingean . . . .

sligopark wrote: »

Bomb left not by the IRA nor Provisionals but by the CIRA - Criminal IRA.

I always thought the C stood for Continuity?

RDM_83 again

Its opinions and views like those that are expressed on this thread that kept Northern Ireland from peace till 98, the conflict could have been resolved by Sunningdale in 74. However the unionist (and a large section of the British security forces) felt that this would undermine the legitimacy of the state.
And apart from this another dimension of failure was added in that the British state could not hold talks with the IRA without being branded with the old sympathisers and too-soft jibes that the posters above so enjoy.

Obviously the situation is very different as the C/R IRA is not the group like the PIRA was but it still has potential to rumble on for years, like the various IRA campaigns of the 40's through 60's

OhNoYouDidn't

The fundamental problem with the narrative created by some posters on here is that normal rules of debate for some reason are not allowed to apply.

Imagine their logic was expanded across the board.... Would make for a fairly poor medium and standard of debate.

Any debate on the economy - FF are 'scum' and if you try and go deeper, you are a lover of Anglo.

Israelis. Palestinians, Gardaí, the Yanks, the Brits, the EU, Greens, the left, the right, the centre, anyone, can be labelled scum and no further debate allowed or you are x or y. Its fundamentally fascistic at its core to try and shout down opposing views with smears and in this case, the views aren't actually opposing.