More Tolls on the M50 coming soon

knird evol

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I dont know is france attractive?

more importantly is france a female?


If the answer to those questions is yes then i would certainly jump in the liffey after an attractive female who is now wet!

She's in a wet t-shirt. shes got lots of wine. and you already owe her loads of money. yep. you gotta go for this one

enda1

elviscostello wrote: »

We are lucky in comparison to the French. I was with a friend who drove in France a few years ago. One of the tolls he paid was something like €11 :eek:

Pff

I regularly pay €31.90 each direction when visiting my girlfriend's family!

Have paid over €45 when going skiing once.

A right bastard that is, but a very good idea from the French perspective too as it collects a tax from the numerous Belgian, Dutch, German cars and foreign road hauliers from whom they wouldn't otherwise gather the money to use their fantastic roads.

RobbieTheRobber

enda1 wrote: »

Pff

I regularly pay €31.90 each direction when visiting my girlfriend's family!

Have paid over €45 when going skiing once.

A right bastard that is, but a very good idea from the French perspective too as it collects a tax from the numerous Belgian, Dutch, German cars and foreign road hauliers from whom they wouldn't otherwise gather the money to use their fantastic roads.

So using that idea, this could also garner revenue from northern irish registered cars. Which would be good for us.

enda1

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So using that idea, this could also garner revenue from northern irish registered cars. Which would be good for us.

Yeah, but in Ireland the vast majority of cars are Irish registered, with a very low percentage of foreign cars I imagine.

The toll should be much higher for road haulage vehicles, with added rules about forcing them to use the motorways rather than bypassing through towns.

TouchingVirus

I don't agree with tolled roads on principle, like others here I think we're paying the price for people in charge not having any forward-thinking cells in their brains. I also doubt that motor tax, VRT etc all goes on our roads infrastructure. I avoid tolled roads where I can, I could travel the M50 to work, but I go the quays. I could travel the M4 home, but I go on the N4. I also don't like that roads that were 100km/h for years and were safe get reduced to 80km/h when the tolled alternative comes in - it forced people to use the tolled road if they want to get to their destination remotely fast.

All of that being said, I think the multiple tolls on the M50 is a great idea. But you just know they're going to balls up the implementation. Toll the M50 with 4 tolls. If you toll every section it's needlessly granular and the expense will be transferred to toll prices and you'll force people onto the roads the M50 was designed to reduce congestion on. The total toll for driving the length of the M50 should not increase, if I drive from top to bottom it should cost me €3.00 no matter how many tolls I pass on the way.

It's stupid that if I hop on at Blanchardstown and off at the N4 it costs me as much as getting on the M1 and off at Shankill. It's also stupid that getting on the M4 at Lucan and going to Enfield costs as much as getting on the M4 and going all the way to Mullingar. Same for the M8 which is tolled once and not once for the 30 odd miles before that.

I think 4 tolls, €0.75 each maximum would be grand. I'd actually start using the M50 to get to work considering I'd be charged half what I'm being charged now. Maybe with 4 tolls they could even lower the toll on the road as they wouldn't be losing out on a lot of revenue from people who hop on and off before a toll. There are quite a few tolled roads in the USA, but all the tolls are frequent (and thus cheap) that you don't mind paying. Clearly the volume of people paying the cheap toll means they're covering the road costs adequetely. Orlando to Key West (nearly 400 miles) cost about $6 in tolls if I remember rightly, the The M50 (at Swords) and the M4 to Enfield (~33miles) costs €5.90, or €4.90 if you're registered with the M50 tag.

Of course this sort of thinking will never be applied, we'll get raped more, maybe a fiver for a drive down the M50.

dRNk SAnTA

A 250 km motorway journey in France during the summer cost me nearly 20 euro.

TouchingVirus

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

A 250 km motorway journey in France during the summer cost me nearly 20 euro.

Yes, but why? Why is it so expensive in France? Also, when the price of fuel gets increased in the budget there's nobody thinking "Oh, that's fair".

galwayrush

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Yes, but why? Why is it so expensive in France? Also, when the price of fuel gets increased in the budget there's nobody thinking "Oh, that's fair".

They don't have V.R.T.

maggy_thatcher

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Yes, but why? Why is it so expensive in France? Also, when the price of fuel gets increased in the budget there's nobody thinking "Oh, that's fair".

The French don't have motor tax. They've a pay-by-use system in the form of tolls on the motorway network, and higher fuel taxes. This way they treat everybody (visitors & locals) equally.

shedweller

fatboypee wrote: »

The point with regard to Norwegian oil is what their government did with the proceeds of it. They put it into a national Pension fund currently estimated at a cool €640 billion++ and did not invest it in crazy ways.

And what will we do with our oil? Let somebody else get it for free and not profit from it.

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

1. The speed limit on the M50 is (mostly) 100km/h, not 120km/h -- which makes a big difference on fuel economy.

On the M50, traffic is (generally) continually flowing, which is substantially more fuel efficient than the stop/start when going along the back-roads.

Agreed. I meant all the other motorways where the alternative is 80 to 100kph limits.

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

The French don't have motor tax. They've a pay-by-use system in the form of tolls on the motorway network, and higher fuel taxes. This way they treat everybody (visitors & locals) equally.

That sounds great and iv'e never seen it mentioned before when defending tolls!! If it works there then why wouldn't it work here?
Cynical old me expects that there may be somebody losing out with this french system and i doubt it would be joe public.

Grimreaper666

And just listening to the news on the way home now it seems we're going to get fined buy the EU for underusing our roads!!! FFS you couldn't make this sh!t up!!....:mad:

AugustusMinimus

shedweller wrote: »

And what will we do with our oil? Let somebody else get it for free and not profit from it.

Please explain this further.

Norway tax oil companies via a tax per barrel pumped.

In Ireland, extraction of oil has Corporation Tax applied of 25%. Whats to stop the government of rasing Corporation Tax on Oil back to the 50% it was 10 years ago ?

VinnyTGM

They can put toll's wherever they want, I'll be avoiding them. Then when I get my degree I'm out of this sh1thole along with all the other college graduates.

Biggies

In Norway they also have a system of tolling city centres to encourage public transport, as in London's congestion zone. Hasn't anyone in the government ever thought of doing that in Dublin rather than tolling a (supposedly) relief bypass? People would still use motorways and it would encourage public transport on the way. But I suppose their brains don't work that way.

I live near Cork and haven't used the Fermoy bypass once; the old N8 is alright and they don't charge me for it.

Eric Cartman

I love Ireland , I cringe when naieve students and teenagers call it a ****hole just because they cant get a job in the music shop they like, or find a girlfriend...., but any more of this and I may have to leave. The westlink (as much as I hate it) has always been there and the backroad around it I know , so that can stay, but tolling the whole M50 is just insane , its going to mean that liffey valley, the walkinstown roundabout, out near park west, the housign estates of walkinstown and terenure/ templeogue are going to be littered with people like me polluting dublin in 4x4's just avoiding the tolls

Grimreaper666

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I love Ireland , I cringe when naieve students and teenagers call it a ****hole just because they cant get a job in the music shop they like, or find a girlfriend...., but any more of this and I may have to leave. The westlink (as much as I hate it) has always been there and the backroad around it I know , so that can stay, but tolling the whole M50 is just insane , its going to mean that liffey valley, the walkinstown roundabout, out near park west, the housign estates of walkinstown and terenure/ templeogue are going to be littered with people like me polluting dublin in 4x4's just avoiding the tolls

I have a job, girlfriend and am over 18 and i'm still getting out of this sh!thole! They've taken rules, regulations and taxes to a new high that we'll never see the back of.

Damien360

Biggies wrote: »

In Norway they also have a system of tolling city centres to encourage public transport, as in London's congestion zone. Hasn't anyone in the government ever thought of doing that in Dublin rather than tolling a (supposedly) relief bypass? People would still use motorways and it would encourage public transport on the way. But I suppose their brains don't work that way.

I live near Cork and haven't used the Fermoy bypass once; the old N8 is alright and they don't charge me for it.

They do that in Stockholm, Sweden. Their are gantrys with the price which is dependant on time to read number plates and you get a monthly bill from the bank to pay for it. It does not work. Stockholm traffic is cronic due to lack of public transport. Locals see it as a revenue raising exercise only. We would be in the exact same situation.

On another point. If the government put up more tolls everywhere, you just get people avoiding them on the back roads. They get frustrated with the slow pace and you get accidents. The cost of these accidents in fire service, ambulances, hospital care, long term care would far outweigh the revenue generated from any toll and the taxpayer would cover all this. My point is simple, we have lower deaths per capita on our roads than years gone by due to the quality of the current primary road network. You would undo all that in one foul swoop with the introduction of unnecessary tolling.

shedweller

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Please explain this further.

Norway tax oil companies via a tax per barrel pumped.

In Ireland, extraction of oil has Corporation Tax applied of 25%. Whats to stop the government of rasing Corporation Tax on Oil back to the 50% it was 10 years ago ?

http://www.providenceresources.com/uploads/hookheaddrillingupdate-sept102007_000.pdf
The companies listed there have a majority stake in the operation.
Its an example any by no means the only one im sure

-Chris-

My €0.02

- I'd be happy for the M50 to have 4 evenly spread tolls as long as, when you added them up, they don't exceed the current toll. It seems fairer than the current system.
- I'd have no problem with a congestion charge in Dublin city as long as it was reasonably low.
- I'd be strongly against tolls on any N (or lesser) roads.

I'd happily extend that logic and put multiple tolls on every M road just as long as they were implemented on the premise that Ns would never be tolled.


Driving on a motorway is considerably quicker, easier and cheaper (due to reduced fuel economy etc.) and therefore you could reasonably be expected to pay for the privilege.
Driving all the way into the centre of town is mostly done due to convenience or business (or some form of immobility), I think people could reasonably be expected to pay for the privilege of the convenience.

N roads are the arteries that get you from one to the other and therefore shouldn't be tolled.

opinion guy

lol - I read the thread title as "More trolls on the M50 coming soon":D

AugustusMinimus

shedweller wrote: »

http://www.providenceresources.com/uploads/hookheaddrillingupdate-sept102007_000.pdf
The companies listed there have a majority stake in the operation.
Its an example any by no means the only one im sure

You haven't really answered anything though.

Ireland sold rights to these companies as the Irish government didn't want to fork out on the exploration costs, which ultimately might not have lead to any oil being pumped at all.

Norway was different. The oil in Norway was easy to get at (relatively) and was a sure thing.


Ireland is prob going to approach it the same way as Libya and tax the hell out of the profits. There is nothing the oil companies can do about this and even if the government were to tax at 90% of the profits, there would be no reason for the oil companies to leave as they would still be making a profit.

charlemont

great country, sure the people wouldn't vote fianna fail if they didn't want to be treated like crap..

-Chris-

@everyone - this is the Motors forum, if you want to take pot-shots at politicians or discuss taxation of profits of oil exploration, you're probably better off taking it to the politics forum.

Del2005

enda1 wrote: »

The toll should be much higher for road haulage vehicles, with added rules about forcing them to use the motorways rather than bypassing through towns.

You do know that all goods in this country are transported by road. So if you make trucks pay more we'll all pay more for everything we buy. The truckers won't absorbe this cost it will be passed onto us all or they'll all in bust.

Del2005

-Chris- wrote: »

My 0.02

- I'd be happy for the M50 to have 4 evenly spread tolls as long as, when you added them up, they don't exceed the current toll. It seems fairer than the current system.
- I'd have no problem with a congestion charge in Dublin city as long as it was reasonably low.
- I'd be strongly against tolls on any N (or lesser) roads.

I'd happily extend that logic and put multiple tolls on every M road just as long as they were implemented on the premise that Ns would never be tolled.


Driving on a motorway is considerably quicker, easier and cheaper (due to reduced fuel economy etc.) and therefore you could reasonably be expected to pay for the privilege.
Driving all the way into the centre of town is mostly done due to convenience or business (or some form of immobility), I think people could reasonably be expected to pay for the privilege of the convenience.

N roads are the arteries that get you from one to the other and therefore shouldn't be tolled.

Motorways are arteries not N roads. 1 fatal crash on an N road would wipe out most of the revenue from tolling the alternative M road. And if they toll the M roads our fatal accidents will start to rise.

enda1

Del2005 wrote: »

You do know that all goods in this country are transported by road. So if you make trucks pay more we'll all pay more for everything we buy. The truckers won't absorbe this cost it will be passed onto us all or they'll all in bust.

Yes I do and we should.

The cost of goods should not be subsidised by the NRA and EU regional development funds.

Cmar-Ireland

Other areas that are being considered for tolls....

• Tolling access roads to the capital including the M7/N7 from Cork and Limerick. This would hit one of the busiest commuter roads in the country.
• Tolls on the N11 from Wicklow and N2 from Monaghan.
• The Jack Lynch Tunnel in Cork and southern ring road are also earmarked for a charge.
• Tolls on all new major road schemes including the Gort to Tuam road and Arklow/Rathnew upgrade.
• Increasing toll charges across the network.

-Chris-

Del2005 wrote: »

Motorways are arteries not N roads. 1 fatal crash on an N road would wipe out most of the revenue from tolling the alternative M road. And if they toll the M roads our fatal accidents will start to rise.

Apologies, my point was that N roads transport cars between M, R and cities. Should I have called them corpuscles or something? No, wait. Cars are corpuscles and N roads are veins?

Can you elaborate on the whole fatal accidents thing?

maggy_thatcher

-Chris- wrote: »

Can you elaborate on the whole fatal accidents thing?

The theory is that if you charge people to go on the safer roads, some people are going to switch to the more dangerous free roads (which become more dangerous as traffic flows increase).

DubTony

Most of you won't remember that when the first stretches of the M50 were built there were toll plinths built at each access point. IIRC South Dublin Co.Co. challenged the government on the basis that the M50 had been built with European funds and therefore had already been paid by taxes and so should not be "taxed" again. The plinths were later removed. I assume that the rule no longer applies.

I think it's pretty obvious that when electronic tolls were introduced it was going to be done along the whole length of the M50. But instead of a silly 75c per section (would this be 50c for tag holders?) a fairer system, with toll gantries on each entry and exit point, would be better. Assuming they won't toll the road at the Santry junction and the port tunnel is already tolled, there are 13 junctions on the M50 (Dundrum Junction 13 and Dun Laoghaire Junction 14 are effectively the same junction). I'd suggest that the simplest system would be to electronically record when a vehicle enters the motorway and make the effective charge at the exit point (much like the "take a ticket" system used on many American turnpikes). So a trip from Firhouse to the N7 would cost 45c, but travelling the length of the thing wouldn't cost any more than it does now. I know there are many people who would simply avoid the M50 for a while, but when they're sitting in their cars looking at the empty M50 below they'll come to justify paying a small toll to hop from one junction to the next.

This is what should have been done at the time e-tolling was introduced when the road was widened. The problem is that this proposal is obviously simply a revenue generating exercise, and may not necessarily add to revenue.