AgeCards are 'not a form of ID'? What?

Fionn MacCool

Went into the local friendly Garda station the other day to pick up a form for an AgeCard, as I'm sick of having to worry about bringing my passport out. They told me they don't give them out anymore as you have to complete the form with them because (and I don't see how this has anything to do with not giving them out) "people were using them as a form of ID".

I asked "is that not pretty much what they are?" and she told me that they were just 'proof of age' cards (clue's in the name I guess).

How on earth is a card with a great big feckin photo of you, with several security features, one which you get through the government after providing a birth cert and passport NOT a form of identification?

Sea Sharp

Also it's illegal to take your passport out for non-essential use.
Madness.
A driver's licence is probably your best bet. The ID for which it is ironically p1ss easy to create a fake.

_feedback_

Would assume they mean it is not considered an official ID (like passport / driving license etc.)

Good username

mikemac

The garda is correct.
It's not official ID like a passport is, it's just proof of age, nothing more

Bit of a technical difference but it's correct

My name is URL

The Intoxicating Liquor Act 1988 (Age Card) Regulations 2007 provide for a voluntary National Age Card scheme. National Age Card’s can be obtained by individuals aged 18 and over to show that they have reached the legal age for purchasing alcohol.

A National Age Card is a “proof of age card” and not an “Identity Card”. The National Age Card is solely for the purpose stated above and should not be obtained or used for any other purpose.

http://www.agecard.ie/

Fionn MacCool

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Also it's illegal to take your passport out for non-essential use.
Madness.

Never heard that before. It is ridiculous that I have to take an expensive government document out with me though. I'm almost 22, nobody has ever told me I look young and I certainly don't look under 18, but there are so many till monkeys out there without an ounce of common sense (or just nazi managers) they feel they have to ask you for ID. Then you have the bouncers who spend their nights waiting for an excuse to refuse someone.

A driver's licence is probably your best bet. The ID for which it is ironically p1ss easy to create a fake.

Most places don't actually accept driver's licenses. Dunnes and Aldi don't.

In fact, I was in Aldi once and the woman wouldn't accept the passport of the guy in front because she thought they could only accept AgeCards.

Fionn MacCool

feelingstressed wrote: »

The garda is correct.
It's not official ID like a passport is, it's just proof of age, nothing more

Bit of a technical difference but it's correct

My name is URL wrote: »

http://www.agecard.ie/

Yes... I wasn't suggesting she was wrong, I'm wondering why on earth it cannot count as an identity card.

mikemac

Till monkeys :rolleyes:
Maybe the bouncers pick up this attitude.

The staff are doing their job

Ahern launches crackdown on underage alcohol sales

Teenagers as young as 15 will be recruited by gardaí to target pubs, shops and off licences selling alcohol to underage drinkers, it emerged today.

Senior gardaí nationwide are expected to make a hit list of premises known to flout licensing laws.

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern and Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy launched the test purchasing of alcohol scheme, which will come into effect from October 1.

Mr Ahern said the aim of the scheme was not to trap an unwary licensee into committing an offence but to ascertain whether a licensee is complying with the law.

That was just three weeks ago, shops are going to get stricter
You are 21, every checkout in Tesco has a sign that if you look 21 or under you may be checked. Similar wording anyway

mahamageehad

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Also it's illegal to take your passport out for non-essential use.
Madness.
A driver's licence is probably your best bet. The ID for which it is ironically p1ss easy to create a fake.

Most place don't accept drivers licenses???
A lot of places just accept agecards and passports!!!

Fionn MacCool

feelingstressed wrote: »

Till monkeys :rolleyes:
Maybe the bouncers pick up this attitude.

The staff are doing their job

Hence what I said about their managers. Although sometimes, like the time in Aldi when she wouldn't accept a passport, they are just being absolute tools. There is no law stating which ID you can accept, only guidelines. The only law is that you cannot serve a minor.

Mr Ahern said the aim of the scheme was not to trap an unwary licensee into committing an offence but to ascertain whether a licensee is complying with the law.

But that's exactly what they are doing...

Wonder will they start sending scantily clad burds wandering through sketchy areas at night to ascertain whether there are rapists.

senordingdong

Had a similar beef myself trying to cash a cheque.

Wouldn't take a age card which has enough holgrams etc... to beat the band, but would take a drivers license, which as mentioned is the easiest to forge.

Fionn MacCool

senordingdong wrote: »

Had a similar beef myself trying to cash a cheque.

Wouldn't take a age card which has enough holgrams etc... to beat the band, but would take a drivers license, which as mentioned is the easiest to forge.

Chances are you also presented (or at least were able to) the drivers license PLUS a birth cert to get the AgeCard in the first place!

Sharkey 10

personally i have come across differently off licences that between them refuse all forms of id , including a passport (how more valid can you get) . Anyone else have this problem?

My name is URL

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

Yes... I wasn't suggesting she was wrong, I'm wondering why on earth it cannot count as an identity card.

Because it's not intended to be one. Simple as that really. There's probably very strict laws on what can be classed as a national identity card, and how they are made available to people. I don't think a national ID card could be taken up on a voluntary basis..

Adyx

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

Never heard that before. It is ridiculous that I have to take an expensive government document out with me though. I'm almost 22, nobody has ever told me I look young and I certainly don't look under 18, but there are so many till monkeys out there without an ounce of common sense (or just nazi managers) they feel they have to ask you for ID. Then you have the bouncers who spend their nights waiting for an excuse to refuse someone.

They do have to ask you for id. Unless the law has been changed recently, it is against the law for a person aged 18 to 23 to be on a licensed premises without id (proof of age).

JayEnnis

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

personally i have come across differently off licences that between them refuse all forms of id , including a passport (how more valid can you get) . Anyone else have this problem?

Yep, finally turned 18. Went into an off license that I knew was cheaper, placed a bottle of JD on the counter. Got asked for ID as I knew I would, handed over my passport and was told they couldn't take it. I told them where to stick it and headed up to the off license I used when I was underage.

Fionn MacCool

Adyx wrote: »

They do have to ask you for id. Unless the law has been changed recently, it is against the law for a person aged 18 to 23 to be on a licensed premises without id (proof of age).

You could be right, although that would be downright ridiculous. Say I own a pub and a close family friend comes in who I know is 20 years of age. He has to have ID on him? No.

Also "18-23" seems a pretty arbitrary range.

In fact the more I think about it, the more I think that's bollocks.

Fionn MacCool

JayEnnis wrote: »

Yep, finally turned 18. Went into an off license that I knew was cheaper, placed a bottle of JD on the counter. Got asked for ID as I knew I would, handed over my passport and was told they couldn't take it. I told them where to stick it and headed up to the off license I used when I was underage.

People would want to take heed of this. You always get told "they're just doing their job, they are in the right, you are wrong, deal with it", because these days customer relations clearly count for ****e. It's not about deciding to serve minors to make a quick buck, it's about treating your customers with a bit of respect: if a person who looks in their 20s is there wanting to buy a few cans of beer, he has his college ID card saying he's 22, several bank cards with his name on, and a driving license saying he's 22, how about you don't be a ****ing jobsworth and just serve the guy? 99% chance he is not under 18 and you are not breaking the law.

Sharkey 10

Adyx wrote: »

They do have to ask you for id. Unless the law has been changed recently, it is against the law for a person aged 18 to 23 to be on a licensed premises without id (proof of age).

How do you prove your 23?

aidan24326

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

personally i have come across differently off licences that between them refuse all forms of id , including a passport (how more valid can you get) . Anyone else have this problem?

Haven't heard of that now, are you sure they were refusing you solely on the basis of age/id? Not doubting you or anything but that just sounds rather bizarre. A valid passport HAS to be accpeted. It's the standard legally-recognised form of personal identification in just about every bloody country on the planet.

If someone refused to accept my passport as a proof of id (or age in the OP's case) I would stand my ground and call the gardai right there, as the only way they can refuse to accept it is if it's out of date, which they would tell you, or if they think it's fake which is an issue that would require the guards attention anyway.

kilkenny_kid

It's terrible I tell ya, least they can identify what jizz type you might be.

Fionn MacCool

aidan24326 wrote: »

Haven't heard of that now, are you sure they were refusing you solely on the basis of age/id? Not doubting you or anything but that just sounds rather bizarre. A valid passport HAS to be accpeted. It's the standard legally-recognised form of personal identification in just about every bloody country on the planet.

If someone refused to accept my passport as a proof of id (or age in the OP's case) I would stand my ground and call the gardai right there, as the only way they can refuse to accept it is if it's out of date, which they would tell you, or if they think it's fake which is an issue that would require the guards attention anyway.

Like I said, the woman in Aldi refused to serve the guy in front of me (who clearly looked in his 20s) something like 2 cans of lager because he didn't have an AgeCard. There's no point calling the Gardai because I'm pretty sure they have the right to refuse you for any reason, it's their shop after all. Best thing to do is just let them know what a prick they are and take your business elsewhere.

Maybe it's just my experience but it seems to mainly be the Eastern European women who are like this. Hardly ever get ID'd by Irish workers or guys, but the women seem to work like robots without any discretion or common sense.

mikemac

aidan24326 wrote: »

If someone refused to accept my passport as a proof of id (or age in the OP's case) I would stand my ground and call the gardai right there, as the only way they can refuse to accept it is if it's out of date, which they would tell you, or if they think it's fake which is an issue that would require the guards attention anyway.

What do want the gardai to do?
Even if they arrive and confirm the passport is valid the shop can still refuse to serve you.

They don't have serve anyone unless you can prove it falls under discrimination legislation

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

Best thing to do is just let them know what a prick they are and take your business elsewhere.

No, what you do is find a manager. The person on the till doesn't set policy. Complain to the correct person

DeVore

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Also it's illegal to take your passport out for non-essential use.
Madness.
A driver's licence is probably your best bet. The ID for which it is ironically p1ss easy to create a fake.

And if you dont drive??


I lost my passport once and had to get a replacement. They asked me for a drivers license but I dont drive. Then they said they couldnt issue a passport, then they changed their minds and said I needed a letter from the cops. I went to my local cop-shop who dont know me from adam and told them who I was and without ID they wrote me a letter. That got me the passport (I think with a copy of my birthcert).

There's nothing wrong with a national identity card PER SE... it what its used for later and what is done with the information collected that is wrong.

DeV.

Fionn MacCool

The whole alcohol serving thing is a bit of a can of worms.

Under what grounds is it ok to tell someone to piss off because they are under 21 (and have proved themselves to be over 18)?

Pubs aren't allowed to have a 'no tinkers' sign on the door, or a 'no blacks' sign, so why is 'Over 21s' ok?

johnmcdnl

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

The whole alcohol serving thing is a bit of a can of worms.

Under what grounds is it ok to tell someone to piss off because they are under 21 (and have proved themselves to be over 18)?

Pubs aren't allowed to have a 'no tinkers' sign on the door, or a 'no blacks' sign, so why is 'Over 21s' ok?

because racism is obviously wrong but people over 21 run the country and establishments and people under 21 don't have a say in the making of any policies or anything...

ageism is just as wrong as racism in my eyes but just think - once your over 18 do you give a ****e that someone under 18 cant' get into a club - Nope you laugh at them - just like when you turn 21 you'll laugh at people over 18 but under 21 because they can't get in....

it is completely wrong but u21s don't have a say anywhere really so that's the way it's going to be because the law does allow for clubs to prevent access u21s...

aidan24326

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

Maybe it's just my experience but it seems to mainly be the Eastern European women who are like this. Hardly ever get ID'd by Irish workers or guys, but the women seem to work like robots without any discretion or common sense.

I know what you mean, this robotic 'computer says no' type of customer service is commonplace these days, and it's not certainly restricted to eastern european women either.

feelingstressed wrote: »

What do want the gardai to do?
Even if they arrive and confirm the passport is valid the shop can still refuse to serve you.

They don't have serve anyone unless you can prove it falls under discrimination legislation

I'm aware they don't have to serve anybody. I was just pointing out that they can't refuse to accept a vaild passport, if that was the only reason. It would have to be for something else. I agree that asking to see the mangager would probably be the best course of action so as to establish exactly why it is that you are being refused. (and hopefully said manager would then defuse the situation by serving you once your passport was bona fide and there wasn't any other good reason not to serve you - such as being abusive, very drunk or whatver).

Fionn MacCool

johnmcdnl wrote: »

because racism is obviously wrong but people over 21 run the country and establishments and people under 21 don't have a say in the making of any policies or anything...

Last time I checked Dáil Éireann wouldn't exactly pass for a United Colours of Benetton advert.

ageism is just as wrong as racism in my eyes but just think - once your over 18 do you give a ****e that someone under 18 cant' get into a club - Nope you laugh at them - just like when you turn 21 you'll laugh at people over 18 but under 21 because they can't get in....

Funnily enough I'm not like that. I actually refuse to give places with those type of rules my service. Same way I own a pair of shoes but anywhere that insists I must wear them can **** off too. I must be in the minority though.

Fionn MacCool

feelingstressed wrote: »

No, what you do is find a manager. The person on the till doesn't set policy. Complain to the correct person

Again, maybe it's just me, but if I was said employee I would recognise "don't accept passports" as being total bollocks, and serve the person anyway (providing I thought they were over 18). In the slim chance that a manager took exception to this and fired me, I would kick up absolute hell and take them to a tribunal.

Unfortunately in this current climate, people live in fear of losing their jobs while managers sit back laughing at the amount of control they have over employees.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

Went into the local friendly Garda station the other day to pick up a form for an AgeCard, as I'm sick of having to worry about bringing my passport out. They told me they don't give them out anymore as you have to complete the form with them because (and I don't see how this has anything to do with not giving them out) "people were using them as a form of ID".

I asked "is that not pretty much what they are?" and she told me that they were just 'proof of age' cards (clue's in the name I guess).

How on earth is a card with a great big feckin photo of you, with several security features, one which you get through the government after providing a birth cert and passport NOT a form of identification?

Hang on, are you sure they didn't mean they wouldn't let you take the form as people were using *that* as an ID or they do not issue age cards anymore?

Fionn MacCool

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Hang on, are you sure they didn't mean they wouldn't let you take the form as people were using *that* as an ID or they do not issue age cards anymore?

lol no, they were not using the form for an agecard as ID...

And they are issuing AgeCards, but you can't just pick up a form, you need to fill it in there with them.

Like I said, I don't understand how the reason she gave has anything to do with not being able to give out forms, but it's not like you can expect the Gardai to provide you with a valid, sensible reason for anything much.

aidan24326

johnmcdnl wrote: »

...and people under 21 don't have a say in the making of any policies or anything...

it is completely wrong but u21s don't have a say anywhere really...

lol, last time I checked 18, 19, amd 20 yeard olds were allowed to vote. So they have that much of a say anyway, and it's much as most of us have most of the time.

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

Again, maybe it's just me, but if I was said employee I would recognise "don't accept passports" as being total bollocks, and serve the person anyway...

Deliberately ignoring company policy WILL get you fired though, especially on something like this where there are potential legal implications for your emplyer. That's the problem and something to bear in mind for whatever future career you follow.

Fionn MacCool

aidan24326 wrote: »

Deliberately ignoring company policy WILL get you fired though, especially on something like this where there are potential legal implications for your emplyer

There are no legal implications in serving a person aged 18+

Dravokivich

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

lol no, they were not using the form for an agecard as ID...

And they are issuing AgeCards, but you can't just pick up a form, you need to fill it in there with them.

Like I said, I don't understand how the reason she gave has anything to do with not being able to give out forms, but it's not like you can expect the Gardai to provide you with a valid, sensible reason for anything much.

A reason is not going to let you take the form home... so what does it matter? Fill it out there and then.. get it over with... what's the problem? That's what you intended on doing right?

Fionn MacCool

Dravokivich wrote: »

A reason is not going to let you take the form home... so what does it matter? Fill it out there and then.. get it over with... what's the problem??

:rolleyes:
There isn't one, I'm just wondering why an AgeCard doesn't count as ID.

aidan24326

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

There are no legal implications in serving a person aged 18+

You know what I meant, legal implications for the employer if a person underage does get served, which is why some of them may appear almost paranoid about it. There are heavy fines in place now for stores/off-licenses etc that get caught, and with Dermot Ahern threatening a crackdown (and yes I know he's a muppet but anyway) you can see how senior bosses would be insisting that their store managers are extra vigilant, and if you're the boss of an ALDI store (for example) you don't want your store to be the one getting fined and/or sued. This filters down to the checkout staff who are put on red-alert and who have no autonomy to make their own decisions, they just do as they're told.

Fionn MacCool

aidan24326 wrote: »

You know what I meant, legal implications for the employer if a person underage does get served, which is why some of them may appear almost paranoid about it..

Yeah I'm not saying just serve everyone, I'm saying if someone shows you their passport you can be pretty damn sure they are of legal age, so use a bit of discretion.

BTW how is it legal to send in underage people to buy drink? Is that not entrapment?

gizmo

DeVore wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with a national identity card PER SE... it what its used for later and what is done with the information collected that is wrong.

DeV.

Careful now, you're currently standing under the hornet's nest with the bat in your hand just looking at it...:pac:

TouchingVirus

AgeCards should be valid proof to obtain Alcohol. So should a drivers license and a passport.

I've heard that it's against the law to have your passport out for non-essential use, it's also illegal to hold a colour photocopy. Black & White photocopies have gotten me into places before while I was waiting on my AgeCard to come through.

The passport should be the one stop for ID really. It should never be refused as a form of valid identification IMO.

Bubs99

Ill be 27 in a few weeks and whats strange is...I get asked for ID more now than I ever did before, mainly in Supervalu, Aldi, night clubs and the odd shop. Im talking regularly being asked. I used to hate it when i was 18-20, now I just laugh at them and show them my age card, same one since I turned 18.

I take it as a compliment...they think I look 10 years younger...thats fine by me. I dont plaster make up on myself daily, maybe thats why, (joke!). Funnily enough, they have always accepted my age card, never asked for my passport. If there was a fuss about that...then i'd go mental!

Its way too dodgy to bring your passport around with you everywhere. When I was in Australia on holiday, I was asked for ID there too and still used my age card showing them the Irish government logo etc. They accepted.

One question...is it true that when you turn 25, that you actually dont have to carry ID with you anymore and show it to bouncers?! This is what I was told.

_feedback_

Bubs99 wrote: »

One question...is it true that when you turn 25, that you actually dont have to carry ID with you anymore and show it to bouncers?! This is what I was told.

You don't have to carry it any time, but they don't have to let you in whether you have it or not either.

testicle

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Also it's illegal to take your passport out for non-essential use.

Under what law?

aidan24326

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

BTW how is it legal to send in underage people to buy drink? Is that not entrapment?

I don't know, I suppose it might be construed as such. You'd imagine the minister in question would have done his legal homework first though, but then again this is Dermot Ahern and Fianna Fail we're talking about, so who knows.

Bubs99 wrote: »

One question...is it true that when you turn 25, that you actually dont have to carry ID with you anymore and show it to bouncers?! This is what I was told.

Unlikely I'd have thought. Even if you are 25, how is the bouncer supposed to know if you can't prove it? I know with most 25 yr olds it should be obvious enough, but some people can look significantly older or younger than they really are.

Fionn MacCool

Most bouncers these days don't even look at my ID, but I bet if I walked up without any they'd tell me to piss off.

It's a bit crap how by the time you get to an age where you don't have to worry about taking ID with you, you're probably too old for it all anyway.

Sharkey 10

aidan24326 wrote: »

Haven't heard of that now, are you sure they were refusing you solely on the basis of age/id? Not doubting you or anything but that just sounds rather bizarre. A valid passport HAS to be accpeted. It's the standard legally-recognised form of personal identification in just about every bloody country on the planet.

If someone refused to accept my passport as a proof of id (or age in the OP's case) I would stand my ground and call the gardai right there, as the only way they can refuse to accept it is if it's out of date, which they would tell you, or if they think it's fake which is an issue that would require the guards attention anyway.

Definatly , I remember that one distinctly because everyone else only had college id and we knew they wouldnt accept that . Everyone else was outside so they couldnt use the excuse that i was buying for other people

LizT

TouchingVirus wrote: »

The passport should be the one stop for ID really. It should never be refused as a form of valid identification IMO.

Don't agree. I never use my passport to get into pubs, nightclub. I always use my age card or licence. I wouldn't feel safe having my passport on me all night. It's harder to get a replacement passport than a replacement age card.

Fionn MacCool

I remember buying beer in Dunnes before, I was asked for ID and showed them my passport (I'm 21), then she asked my mate next to me for ID and he showed his drivers license (he was almost 21) and we were refused because they didn't accept a drivers livense. Even though it was me buying the drink and I had a passport... I couldn't believe it. For starters, even if I was buying it for someone else who was underage, they wouldn't be ****ing standing next to me in the shop! Not to mention he HAD ID showing he was 20 they just didn't accept it.

After protesting a bit I shrugged and went to take the crate of beer to another til, but she grabbed it and told me she had to keep it. So I laughed in her face and went and got another one, went to a different til, and wasn't even asked for ID.

Fionn MacCool

lizt wrote: »

Don't agree. I never use my passport to get into pubs, nightclub. I always use my age card or licence. I wouldn't feel safe having my passport on me all night. It's harder to get a replacement passport than a replacement age card.

What do you mean "don't agree"? He didn't say they shouldn't accept other forms of ID, just that they should never refuse a passport.

stovelid

Junior Cert forum?

Fionn MacCool

stovelid wrote: »

Junior Cert forum?

It's a discussion about what merits acceptable ID.

Maybe it's your posts that would be best confided there.

LizT

Fionn MacCool wrote: »

What do you mean "don't agree"? He didn't say they shouldn't accept other forms of ID, just that they should never refuse a passport.

I meant that a passport shouldn't be the only accepted proof of age.