Economic Destruction.

TimeToShine

I'm in my first year of Economics and Finance so I'm a bit of an amateur, but I was just thinking.

Does anyone else think that at some stage in the foreseeable future people will realise that money is just...paper? Now I'm not expecting this to happen all at once, but I'd expect the "big" people such as the masterminds behind America and China to cop this and start spending all the money on cold hard goods, the public would pick up on this about 40 or 50 years later and civilisation as we know it would descend into chaos.

P. Breathnach

Your basic belief is mistaken. Most money is not paper. It is simply data recorded on bank computer systems.

We could wreck the world economy even more thoroughly than has already happened if we could place enough people with powerful magnets in the right places.

Sticky_Fingers

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'm in my first year of Economics and Finance so I'm a bit of an amateur, but I was just thinking.

Does anyone else think that at some stage in the foreseeable future people will realise that money is just...paper? Now I'm not expecting this to happen all at once, but I'd expect the "big" people such as the masterminds behind America and China to cop this and start spending all the money on cold hard goods, the public would pick up on this about 40 or 50 years later and civilisation as we know it would descend into chaos.

It is actually surprising how many people are unaware that the cash in their pockets has little to back it except other peoples belief that it is worth something. I'm sure that most think that there is physical wealth behind it like gold reserves or other assets instead of public confidence in the system.

As far as I'm aware China have been buying up any physical assets they can lay their hands on while it seems that the West is so far in debt to each other and countries like China that we are busy just keeping our heads above the water and can't afford to "buy" these assets.

Amhran Nua

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

It is actually surprising how many people are unaware that the cash in their pockets has little to back it except other peoples belief that it is worth something.

And the force of the entire state, the ability of said state to raise taxes, legal system, and international banks. Other than that though, not much.

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

the West is so far in debt to each other and countries like China that we are busy just keeping our heads above the water and can't afford to "buy" these assets.

Seven percent of US national debt, is exactly how much China owns.

Ridiculous thread tbh.

Sticky_Fingers

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And the force of the entire state, the ability of said state to raise taxes, legal system, and international banks. Other than that though, not much.

Your point being? As I stated the money in your pocket is intrinsically worthless, its only value is what you and society in general put on it. All those vaulted institutions are part of society and if they ever lost faith in the countries backing the currency then the value of said cash would fall.

Amhran Nua

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Your point being? As I stated the money in your pocket is intrinsically worthless, its only value is what you and society in general put on it. All those vaulted institutions are part of society and if they ever lost faith in the countries backing the currency then the value of said cash would fall.

My point being that if the "belief" in currency fails, everything else has failed first, so you've got bigger problems. If you're talking about currency fluctuations, that happens, then they bounce back. Its a far cry from economic destruction.

Sticky_Fingers

Amhran Nua wrote: »

My point being that if the "belief" in currency fails, everything else has failed first, so you've got bigger problems. If you're talking about currency fluctuations, that happens, then they bounce back. Its a far cry from economic destruction.

Not everything, just the countries (perceived or otherwise) ability to keep its house in order. Currency fluctuations do happen but the notion that currencies cannot fail and will always bounce back is plainly wrong. There will not be a wholesale collapse in the financial systems of the world but individual currencies can sink and I don't think any (even the mightiest) are immune to possible collapse. It will take a severe knock in confidence to topple todays top dogs but if the last few years have taught us anything its that such knocks can and do happen.

Amhran Nua

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

It will take a severe knock in confidence to topple todays top dogs but if the last few years have taught us anything its that such knocks can and do happen.

Really? I haven't noticed any currencies failing lately except those of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Zimbabwe. If a country's ability to keep its house in order fails, everything else has already failed.

Sticky_Fingers

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Really? I haven't noticed any currencies failing lately except those of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Zimbabwe. If a country's ability to keep its house in order fails, everything else has already failed.

You forgot Argentina;). I'll concede the point to you

Backard_Pell

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And the force of the entire state, the ability of said state to raise taxes, legal system, and international banks. Other than that though, not much.


Seven percent of US national debt, is exactly how much China owns.

Ridiculous thread tbh.

so its a ridiculous thread? What if more people were to start doing what Mark Boyle has been doing for the last 18 months now (although its a little over 12 months in this clip). He has been living withoug money, completely. So who says its impossible / ridiculous.
Im not saying its ideal, but hes proving a point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uTyjvAO6ww

Saadyst

Backard_Pell wrote: »

so its a ridiculous thread? What if more people were to start doing what Mark Boyle has been doing for the last 18 months now (although its a little over 12 months in this clip). He has been living withoug money, completely. So who says its impossible / ridiculous.
Im not saying its ideal, but hes proving a point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uTyjvAO6ww

I think it's probably more of a philosophical thread rather than economics. I mean really you have to look at the first currencies being introduced, the start of the bartering system and so on and so forth.

The problem in itself, is not money; remember at the basic level, it's just a common standard to value goods and services. I think really what this thread (and some replies) are trying to aim at is problems they see with the capitalist / free market system?

dan_d

Actually, it goes beyond that.Most money is not "just paper"....a lot of it exists in the computer world, it's just numbers on screens.It doesn't even make it to paper...

szjon

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'm in my first year of Economics and Finance so I'm a bit of an amateur, but I was just thinking.

Does anyone else think that at some stage in the foreseeable future people will realise that money is just...paper? Now I'm not expecting this to happen all at once, but I'd expect the "big" people such as the masterminds behind America and China to cop this and start spending all the money on cold hard goods, the public would pick up on this about 40 or 50 years later and civilisation as we know it would descend into chaos.

It is already happening, look at precious metals meteoric rise, they are monetizing and currencies are being devalued. ALL FIAT currencies fail, we are at the moment watching the decline of the dollar. Watching a world reserve currency fail is going to be a spectacular event but it's coming, optimists say 5 - 10 years, pessimists say any time soon. The euro will follow.

Of course it couldn't happen this time, we're too advanced is the usual argument. Prepare to hear it a lot just before the chaos and anarchy are unleashed globally.

Congratulations on hitting the truth of money right on the head in your first year. You are one of a very select percentage of the population who understand the difference between value and currency. I'm afraid what they are teaching you now will be obssolete by the time you are finished though.

The last time this happened it took a war to bring us out of it. Compared to this the great deppresion was a little fart no-one noticed, this one is a big coil of steaming you know what and it's already on the way to the fan.

Shame our leaders are not prepared to stop it.

Saadyst

szjon wrote: »

It is already happening, look at precious metals meteoric rise, they are monetizing and currencies are being devalued. ALL FIAT currencies fail, we are at the moment watching the decline of the dollar. Watching a world reserve currency fail is going to be a spectacular event but it's coming, optimists say 5 - 10 years, pessimists say any time soon. The euro will follow.

Of course it couldn't happen this time, we're too advanced is the usual argument. Prepare to hear it a lot just before the chaos and anarchy are unleashed globally.

Congratulations on hitting the truth of money right on the head in your first year. You are one of a very select percentage of the population who understand the difference between value and currency. I'm afraid what they are teaching you now will be obssolete by the time you are finished though.

The last time this happened it took a war to bring us out of it. Compared to this the great deppresion was a little fart no-one noticed, this one is a big coil of steaming you know what and it's already on the way to the fan.

Shame our leaders are not prepared to stop it.

Conspiracy Forum

BeeDI

szjon wrote: »

It is already happening, look at precious metals meteoric rise, they are monetizing and currencies are being devalued. ALL FIAT currencies fail, we are at the moment watching the decline of the dollar. Watching a world reserve currency fail is going to be a spectacular event but it's coming, optimists say 5 - 10 years, pessimists say any time soon. The euro will follow.

Of course it couldn't happen this time, we're too advanced is the usual argument. Prepare to hear it a lot just before the chaos and anarchy are unleashed globally.

Congratulations on hitting the truth of money right on the head in your first year. You are one of a very select percentage of the population who understand the difference between value and currency. I'm afraid what they are teaching you now will be obssolete by the time you are finished though.

The last time this happened it took a war to bring us out of it. Compared to this the great deppresion was a little fart no-one noticed, this one is a big coil of steaming you know what and it's already on the way to the fan.

Shame our leaders are not prepared to stop it.

Pity precious metals are difficult to hold and to keep and to trade for the ordinary Joe Citizen.
I like good quality farm land as an investment. There's no more of it being made. You can see it, feel it, touch it, farm it, rent it out to another farmer, and it's difficult for some scammer to steal it from you. The world is always going to have to feed itself. There will always be a market for it. You can sell on if circumstances require. Etc, etc.

SamSamSammy

szjon wrote: »

It is already happening, look at precious metals meteoric rise, they are monetizing and currencies are being devalued. ALL FIAT currencies fail, we are at the moment watching the decline of the dollar. Watching a world reserve currency fail is going to be a spectacular event but it's coming, optimists say 5 - 10 years, pessimists say any time soon. The euro will follow.

Of course it couldn't happen this time, we're too advanced is the usual argument. Prepare to hear it a lot just before the chaos and anarchy are unleashed globally.

Congratulations on hitting the truth of money right on the head in your first year. You are one of a very select percentage of the population who understand the difference between value and currency. I'm afraid what they are teaching you now will be obssolete by the time you are finished though.

The last time this happened it took a war to bring us out of it. Compared to this the great deppresion was a little fart no-one noticed, this one is a big coil of steaming you know what and it's already on the way to the fan.

Shame our leaders are not prepared to stop it.

God, life must be horrible and awful for you knowing the world is going turn out like that. Would you not just kill yourself now instead of waiting until it happens?

Dont worry, be happy.

Scarab80

szjon wrote: »

It is already happening, look at precious metals meteoric rise, they are monetizing and currencies are being devalued. ALL FIAT currencies fail, we are at the moment watching the decline of the dollar. Watching a world reserve currency fail is going to be a spectacular event but it's coming, optimists say 5 - 10 years, pessimists say any time soon. The euro will follow.

The inflation adjusted price of gold is still 40% off the highs reached in 1980 which was about $2,300 in current dollar terms. Can you please point out the optimists and pessimists who are predicting the failure of the dollar, a currency backed by 14 trillion dollars of domestic production annually.

szjon wrote: »

The last time this happened it took a war to bring us out of it. Compared to this the great deppresion was a little fart no-one noticed, this one is a big coil of steaming you know what and it's already on the way to the fan.

Shame our leaders are not prepared to stop it.

World currencies were gold backed during the great depression, the abandonment of the gold standard combined with the effects of WW2 is what brought an end to the depression. Analysis shows that the sooner countries abandoned the gold standard the sooner they exited recession.

szjon

Saadyst wrote: »

Conspiracy Forum

Please elaborate? I see no conspiracy here? I am stating facts and opinions. Nothing more? Where is the conspiracy?

szjon

BeeDI wrote: »

Pity precious metals are difficult to hold and to keep and to trade for the ordinary Joe Citizen.
I like good quality farm land as an investment. There's no more of it being made. You can see it, feel it, touch it, farm it, rent it out to another farmer, and it's difficult for some scammer to steal it from you. The world is always going to have to feed itself. There will always be a market for it. You can sell on if circumstances require. Etc, etc.

You're right but food is harer to protect than the value stored in a small bar of gold. Gold stores wealth, nothing else, it's useful for those periods of change from one system to another.

I have land and PMs. Paper is becoming worthless.

szjon

SamSamSammy wrote: »

God, life must be horrible and awful for you knowing the world is going turn out like that. Would you not just kill yourself now instead of waiting until it happens?

Dont worry, be happy.

Why? I'm prepared and I have three kids to look out for, like I said. Prepared and happy. I just need to get in some popcorn.

Jesus Wept

Backard_Pell wrote: »

so its a ridiculous thread? What if more people were to start doing what Mark Boyle has been doing for the last 18 months now (although its a little over 12 months in this clip). He has been living withoug money, completely. So who says its impossible / ridiculous.
Im not saying its ideal, but hes proving a point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uTyjvAO6ww

lol.
What a tit.

szjon

Scarab80 wrote: »

The inflation adjusted price of gold is still 40% off the highs reached in 1980 which was about $2,300 in current dollar terms. Can you please point out the optimists and pessimists who are predicting the failure of the dollar, a currency backed by 14 trillion dollars of domestic production annually.

That's right, I expect physical gold to decouple from ETF paper anytime soon and see a true value put on it. ETFs are leveraged around 100:1 and when the poo hits the fan the rush for delivery will make physical a lot heavier to hold. Today's correction was a shakedown of the nervous by the big boys, it worked, maybe $1380 tomorrow (I hope, I've put a position on my forex account, profits to go on physical), $1500 by year end? We should start to see paper unravel by then I imagine. I could be wrong though but I don't care, I'm not in PMs for profit, just don't know what's coming down the line so turning to history.

Downfall of the dollar sayeth,

Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz (Pessimist)
Gerald Celente, Trends Institute. (Pessimist)
Head of the world's largest bond fund, Pimco Chief Executive Mohamed El-Erian. (Pessimist)
Chief Executive Warren Buffet Berkshire Hathaway. (Optomist)
Peter Schiff, economist. President of Euro Pacific Capital (Pessimist)
Nouriel Roubini NYU Economics Professor (Pessimist)

You can do due diligence on that lot, there are many more. The IMF is 'concerned'. etc, etc. Lines are there to be read between.

World currencies were gold backed during the great depression, the abandonment of the gold standard combined with the effects of WW2 is what brought an end to the depression. Analysis shows that the sooner countries abandoned the gold standard the sooner they exited recession.

I'm not advocating a gold based currency system, that's what I'm gambling we'll get, (or silver but its industrial usage wouldn't really make this a viable option) Personally I would like to see governments issue currency rather than borrow it from the private banks as we do. Henry Ford had a lot to say about this, as did Thomas Edisson as did many American Presidents throughout history. I'm sure you know what I'm on about judging from the knowledge in your post.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand
our banking and monetary system, for if they did,
I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

Henry Ford


The Fed is destroying the dollar, they are actively propping up the stock market, look at the outflow of money and the constant rise in stocks. Look how the markets react to bad news. They are trying to lure in people and it isn't working, they are now in a situation where QE2 is priced into the market so they are damned if they do and damned if they don't, this is not going to be pretty and I am not afraid to admit that it is scaring the excrement out of me.

Every fiat money system has collapsed before, just as every gold standard too. It has NEVER been pretty.

What really annoys me is that I left school at 14 and have no formal qualifications at all. If I saw this coming then why didn't those who were trained? If I can see the mistakes being made, why can't they? It makes me wonder if this is global Friedman shock therapy. It's getting positively Orwellian. What is the bigger picture I can't see?

I was an anti-globalisation demonstrator back in the day. People thought we were mad. Hmm...

Jane5

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/sp-projects-60-all-countries-will-be-junk-rated-2060-sees-increasing-tests-social-cohesion

You're right, you know. Even S&P are saying it now. The game is up.

szjon

Jane5 wrote: »

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/sp-projects-60-all-countries-will-be-junk-rated-2060-sees-increasing-tests-social-cohesion

You're right, you know. Even S&P are saying it now. The game is up.

Don't agree with the timeframe but the conclusions are hard to deny. But then, this is the same S&P that was rating securities AAA that turned out to be full of n.i.n.j.a mortgages.

Zerohedge is a good site to get the truth though, cuts through the propaganda.

Scarab80

szjon wrote: »

Personally I would like to see governments issue currency rather than borrow it from the private banks as we do. Henry Ford had a lot to say about this, as did Thomas Edisson as did many American Presidents throughout history. I'm sure you know what I'm on about judging from the knowledge in your post.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand
our banking and monetary system, for if they did,
I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

Henry Ford

.....

Ok you seem to be getting your information from a youtube video called Zeitgeist, correct me if I am wrong. That video, like many youtube videos, is BS.

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-three/

szjon wrote: »

Zerohedge is a good site to get the truth though, cuts through the propaganda.

Run by an SEC banned inside trader, hardly the most reliable source of information.

I suggest a move to CT forum.

changes

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

It is actually surprising how many people are unaware that the cash in their pockets has little to back it except other peoples belief that it is worth something.

So in effect we are all paying for agreements made by sean fitzpatrick.

amacca

szjon wrote: »

What really annoys me is that I left school at 14 and have no formal qualifications at all. If I saw this coming then why didn't those who were trained?

I believe they did...at least some of those that are forced to look at the bigger picture because of the nature of what they do...and some of those that are thinkers rather than doers

trouble is some of them probably take the long view and steer clear of getting involved in a system headed for collapse (and therefore having any influence over it ... preferring instead to profit from it) and the rest are up to their necks in it...vested interest in seeing it continue I suppose

and then you can never discount that even the most intelligent of people can get swept up in the enthusiasm/caught in the hysteria/believe the hype especially if they gain from it initially etc etc

szjon wrote: »

If I can see the mistakes being made, why can't they? It makes me wonder if this is global Friedman shock therapy. It's getting positively Orwellian. What is the bigger picture I can't see?

just an opinion but the eventuality (the mistakes will lead to) may not be too difficult to predict but the timeframe ..... thats a different story


many of the people you would think should have seen what happened coming depend on that very system to continue, so they will do what it takes to keep it ticking over because they are part of it....they also act in their own self interest...if the disaster/unravelling could be as far away as 20/30 years (approaching approx 40% of an average lifespan in a lot of countries) or some undetermined time in the future....then that's a long time to spend sitting on the sidelines trying to get the game called off and the rules changed to make it a more sensible less destructive sport...its impossible to change it from within imo...there's just too much momentum against you


+factor in self interest, some holding a belief that they will get out before the **** hits the fan (self delusion in some cases) and the difficulty of trying to swim against the current (sometimes its easier to go with the flow, get what you want even though you don't agree with the direction its going and then get off before the waterfall and this at least imo might help explain why this **** is going to happen again and again and again as it has happened repeatedly before

as a species we will need to become a hell of a lot more enlightened sidestep this in some form or another in the future

szjon

s

Scarab80 wrote: »

Ok you seem to be getting your information from a youtube video called Zeitgeist, correct me if I am wrong. That video, like many youtube videos, is BS.

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-three/



Run by an SEC banned inside trader, hardly the most reliable source of information.

I suggest a move to CT forum.

Add bloomberg, bbc, rte, kitco, forex.com, capitalists@work, ftalphaville, the economist, time mgazine, newsweek. These are my daily, weekly and monthly sources. Others are naomi klein, greg pallast, wikipedia........ Must I go on. How do you know where I get my info from and why are so many people on this site referring anything that they don't believe to conspiracy theory?

Last night I printed the full wiki entries on Goldman sachs and Lehman Brothers as my bedtime read.

Did you read those names I listed above? Some of the most important financial people on the planet whose opinions are just as valid as any others.

I also read a lot of books, you should try a few of these.

http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Great-Powers/dp/0679720197
http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine-Rise-Disaster-Capitalism/dp/0805079831
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Democracy-Money-Can-Globalization/dp/0452283914

I read history for fun, I haven't read anything that wasn't non-fiction since I was 15 years old, that was along time ago.

Instead of labelling my views as crackpot just because you don't agree with them, perhaps you could point out why I am wrong? I'm always open to new ideas.

I have seen zeitgeist, I think the people behind it just point out a few facts and then go on to plug their own utopian ideal. I read zerohedge, mainly because a disgruntled financier might be telling the truth? It doesn't mean I don't read anything else.

Now if I was one of the millions watching x-factor or eastenders I would understand where you are coming from.

To be honest, why don't you just go and micturate upon someone elses parade if you have nothing constructive to add to the topic except personal attacks.



Look here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/

Read all those headlines and then look at the dow and nasdaq. Please explain the problem here?

Look here.
http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/1008/imf.html
Conspiracy?

Look here.
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/futures/
Look at the commodity rise. Please explain why?

Otherwise as I said above, nothing to add, say nothing.

Amhran Nua

CT FTW.

szjon

Amhran Nua wrote: »

CT FTW.

I'm assuming that lazy newspeak is aimed at me or can't you spell? I refer you to the post above, mainly the last sentence.

Scarab80

szjon wrote: »

Did you read those names I listed above? Some of the most important financial people on the planet whose opinions are just as valid as any others.

Yes they are the most well respected commentators in the world, the thing is none of them are predicting the collapse of fiat currency, they echo to certain degrees widely held views that the strength of the dollar and it's position as a global reserve currency is under threat.

szjon wrote: »

Instead of labelling my views as crackpot just because you don't agree with them, perhaps you could point out why I am wrong? I'm always open to new ideas.

I have seen zeitgeist, I think the people behind it just point out a few facts and then go on to plug their own utopian ideal. I read zerohedge, mainly because a disgruntled financier might be telling the truth? It doesn't mean I don't read anything else.

Now if I was one of the millions watching x-factor or eastenders I would understand where you are coming from.

To be honest, why don't you just go and micturate upon someone elses parade if you have nothing constructive to add to the topic except personal attacks.

I don't mean to be personal but when I see the whole "the Fed is privately owned" nonsense it smacks of CT. It is a blatant misrepresentation of the truth, while the federal reserve banks are private institutions they are controlled by the board of governors which is publicly appointed with all surplus fed funds remitted to the US Treasury.

szjon wrote: »

Look here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/

Read all those headlines and then look at the dow and nasdaq. Please explain the problem here?

Look here.
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/futures/
Look at the commodity rise. Please explain why?

US jobs figures were down due to the ending of census work, private sector employment was up for the 9th month in a row but not by as much as had been expected. This sluggish growth combined with global factors has increased the chances of QE2, hence the increase in equities and commodities.

szjon wrote: »

Look here.
http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/1008/imf.html
Conspiracy?

I'm sure you know what's going on here, China, Australia, Brazil, BOJ, BOE and the Fed are all trying to weaken their currencies to stimulate domestic employment. That does not equal the end of fiat currencies, though it probably means that holding gold is a good short term hedge until the situation is stabalised.