effective Irish people who did not need a private school

sensibleken

coconut5 wrote: »

But say if a smart kid goes to a 'bad' secondary school, they will receive a lot of encouragement from their teachers because they will really be rooting for them to do well, and there will be a lot less pupils in the honours classes. In a private school, they could be one of 30 bright kids, get lost in the crowd, feel the pressure and completely crumble, actually doing worse than they should have.

Sorry but no! I went to a spectacularly bad school and I would consider myself clever. The most we did is any course when it came to the LC was 55%, almost every teacher I had had the attitude that 'all of yous will end up doing unskilled labour or in prison'.

Hence my reasons for getting grinds and cheating a lot.

lily09

fkiely wrote: »

Your post in riddled with inaccuracies. The pay in private schools is often much higher, hence how they can often cherry pick. Also to say that they don't take on children with special needs is completely unsubstantiated.

No its not. Im talking about primary schools and I have had lots of dealings with them not taking on special needs kids into the secondary schools they do it through a entrance exam system.
Please dont call me a liar. I was offered 25,000 for a private primary school in south munster.
Grinds schools are different. Sorry if i wasnt clear.

mikemac

seven-iron wrote: »

Most business owners, entrepreneurs and doctors come from private schools.

I don't agree with this.
And some the of most successful people in the country never went to college or even left school early.

knird evol

its all about Networking - not better school

seven-iron

Yeah but the majority of successful people have a private school background. Especially doctors, dentists, finance professionals and judges.

Walk down Shelbourne Road. Many of the inhabitants are accountants and judges who went to private schools.

I think it is a system that works. Look at the UK politicians. They all went to the best and most prestigious private schools in England. Personally, I think that is a route that we should follow. We should have our brightest and best in office. If you have a poor education you should be made step aside.


EDIT: I'm not saying this to prove my own self-worth. I just want the best for my kids. Surely you cant disagree with me on that.

Pace2008

seven-iron wrote: »

If you have a poor education you should be made step aside.

Surely one should be judged on their performance rather than their background? I'm sure a good education is conducive to competence in office, but if it's obvious you're capable in your area of work, why should it matter?

sensibleken

seven-iron wrote: »

I think it is a system that works. Look at the UK politicians. They all went to the best and most prestigious private schools in England. Personally, I think that is a route that we should follow. We should have our brightest and best in office. If you have a poor education you should be made step aside.

Seriously? I think a lot of people in the UK would disagree with this.

Millicent

seven-iron wrote: »

I think it is a system that works. Look at the UK politicians. They all went to the best and most prestigious private schools in England. Personally, I think that is a route that we should follow. We should have our brightest and best in office. If you have a poor education you should be made step aside.

How can you insinuate that a system that favours elitism and those who can afford private education works?! I'm sorry, this makes no sense to me. It's as ridiculous as all those lecturers I had and those students I encountered who told me that I shouldn't be working a retail job through college. So those people had privilege. Whoop de bloody doo. I'm not gonna favour a system that would segregate or dismiss my abilities because I wasn't lucky enough to have those advantages, and I wouldn't favour a system which would encourage those same people who made those ridiculous comments deciding on the future of a class of people they have no idea about.

ETA: This sense of elitism and building contacts is a large contributor to the cronyism that is rife in this country, which led to people with no social awareness making ill-advised and nonsensical moves on behalf of we, the lowly peons. How arrogant.

seven-iron

Yes 100%.

Our problem in Ireland is that not enough of our brightest and best go into politics.

We may be in a different situation now, if we had of had better educated people in the Dail for the last ten years. I'd love to know what the breakdown in the Dail is between TD's who went public and those who went private. My guess is that it is currently favoring the former by a lot!

NullZer0

Brian Cowen - the man is a genius.

Millicent

seven-iron wrote: »

Yes 100%.

Our problem in Ireland is that not enough of our brightest and best go into politics.

We may be in a different situation now, if we had of had better educated people in the Dail for the last ten years. I'd love to know what the breakdown in the Dail is between TD's who went public and those who went private. My guess is that it is currently favoring the former by a lot!

What?! Just... what?! What the hell has that got to do with private or state schools? Surely encountering the majority of the people you represent through your education is worth more than attending a private school?

seven-iron

Millicent wrote: »

How can you insinuate that a system that favours elitism and those who can afford private education works?! I'm sorry, this makes no sense to me. It's as ridiculous as all those lecturers I had and those students I encountered who told me that I shouldn't be working a retail job through college. So those people had privilege. Whoop de bloody doo. I'm not gonna favour a system that would segregate or dismiss my abilities because I wasn't lucky enough to have those advantages, and I wouldn't favour a system which would encourage those same people who made those ridiculous comments deciding on the future of a class of people they have no idea about.

ETA: This sense of elitism and building contacts is a large contributor to the cronyism that is rife in this country, which led to people with no social awareness making ill-advised and nonsensical moves on behalf of we, the lowly peons. How arrogant.

Hang on, I take your point but we haven't tried it yet though! So, how do you know it wouldn't work? I think the UK system is brilliant.

The title of fifth largest economy in the world speaks for itself. EDIT:Their NHS is significantly better than our HSE. So it shows everyone gets looked after! So to say it is cronyism is ridiculous.

coconut5

Yes, why don't we get all the government ministers to tell us whether they went to a public or private school, and boot out the ones that went to public school?! :rolleyes:

I have never heard such rubbish in all my life. Best and brightest does not always equal rich and privileged. Very rarely actually.

Millicent

seven-iron wrote: »

Hang on, I take your point but we haven't tried it yet though! So, how do you know it wouldn't work? I think the UK system is brilliant.

The title of fifth largest economy in the world speaks for itself. Their NHS is significantly better than our HSE. It could work.

Because I went to state schools. Does my post not imply that I am articulate, well-measured, thoughtful and fair? By your estimation, my original education would eliminate me from the political realm. Why? I can think for myself, I was not indoctrinated into a particular mindset or forced to keep up with the Joneses to educate myself.

And yes, the NHS is a better system than ours. Did you know that it was born out of the devastation of WWII? Britain's economy was in tatters and not many people could have afforded decent healthcare. It was a socialist tactic. Socialism isn't usually synonymous with privilege.

coconut5

sensibleken wrote: »

Sorry but no! I went to a spectacularly bad school and I would consider myself clever. The most we did is any course when it came to the LC was 55%, almost every teacher I had had the attitude that 'all of yous will end up doing unskilled labour or in prison'.

Hence my reasons for getting grinds and cheating a lot.

Fair enough, I still don't think private schools are better though.

enda1

Of my friends and family, it was the ones with the most money who went to the public schools and the ones with the least who went to the private schools.

A lot of the private school nonsense is about perceived "doing what's best for my child", in the same sense as buying them designer clothes and play-stations etc. Why is it that does the least well off try to spoil their kids the most??

People don't seem to realise that the course syllabus is the same in all schools, and in public or private, if your kid is bright, they will succeed and by sixth year will be better than most of their teachers anyway. The life skills learned in public school will stand to you a lot more than any learned in a private school where you are not getting the same cross section of society.

enda1

coconut5 wrote: »

Fair enough, I still don't think private schools are better though.

Its not fair enough actually. Cheating in the LC is not something which should be encouraged I think. Plenty of us went to bad schools with incompetent teachers and didn't need to resort to cheating.

coconut5

enda1 wrote: »

Its not fair enough actually. Cheating in the LC is not something which should be encouraged I think. Plenty of us went to bad schools with incompetent teachers and didn't need to resort to cheating.

I wasn't condoning cheating, I was saying fine if he didn't agree with me. :rolleyes:

amen

anyone see the irish times education supplement last week with a sample of schools providing Leaving Cert results ?
Some of the fee paying schools had a lower number of high performing students 450+ points then public schools and the fee paying schools would not give numbers of those with 300 or less points.

of course you could work it out but paying 5K a year to get average results seems crazy

mikemac

seven-iron wrote: »

The title of fifth largest economy in the world speaks for itself.

Great Britain?

That has nothing to do with being great or fantastic , it's a geographical term

Minor Britain was Brittany and Great Britain was the Island.
Sure remember under the Normans this was one kingdom

enda1

coconut5 wrote: »

I wasn't condoning cheating, I was saying fine if he didn't agree with me. :rolleyes:

Fair enough.
Took you up wrong.

Millicent

seven-iron wrote: »

Their NHS is significantly better than our HSE. So it shows everyone gets looked after! So to say it is cronyism is ridiculous.

See my counter point at 12:51.

orourkeda

orourkeda wrote: »

nobody "needs" a private school with a functioning and well funded education system.

The problem is not the private school, it's that fact that we don't have a properly funded primary and secondary school system

Secondary schools are fine in this county, private schools are for the kids of knobs.

Earthhorse

seamus wrote: »

Having gone to a private school, I can tell you that public schools produce more confident and well-rounded children then private schools.

They do? Or is that just your personal experience?

I think dividing the debate into public and private schools is a little simplistic. There are great private schools and great public ones too. A lot depends on the individual school when it comes to education. When it comes to gaining contacts however, on balance it has to be acknowledged that you are likely to make more powerful ones in private schools. That's always going to help someone regardless of how bright or dim they are or how good or bad the education they received was.

Pace2008

RoverJames wrote: »

Secondary schools are fine in this county, private schools are for the kids of knobs.

I went to a public school myself, but I hang around with a fair few lads who went to Belvedere. None of them are knobs, and neither are their parents from what I've seen.

parker kent

Pace2008 wrote: »

The curricula will vary from institution to institution, as will the exams. The curriculum and final exams are standardised for the LC.

In university individual courses can vary from year-to-year, the curriculum is not really a major consideration for a lot of firms. University education is a lot different to the LC, so they just want to see on a CV that the person has a degree. Once they see that the person has a degree in a particular subject, they are happy. I think the institution plays a role in many decisions firms take when hiring a recent graduate. There are some pretty obvious comparisons that could be made where having a degree from certain universities would be an advantage.

As for private schools v public schools, too many people take questions like that personally. There are pros and cons to each and top students will nearly always come through anyway. But as somebody that went to a disadvantaged school in a disadvantage area, I can see clear advantages of a private education.

But it is not the be all and end-all. There are going to success stories from all schools. People need to chill out and discuss things with a bit of reason instead of automatically taking everything as a personal attack. Just because there are richer people who can afford a different schooling to you, does not make you any better or worse.

coconut5

Earthhorse wrote: »

They do? Or is that just your personal experience?

I think dividing the debate into public and private schools is a little simplistic. There are great private schools and great public ones too. A lot depends on the individual school when it comes to education. When it comes to gaining contacts however, on balance it has to be acknowledged that you are likely to make more powerful ones in private schools. That's always going to help someone regardless of how bright or dim they are or how good or bad the education they received was.

I am totally against all of this 'connections' crap, this 'I'll put in a good word for you with that company, I know Tom very well...'. It makes me so mad. That is what is wrong with this country. People don't do anything on their own merit anymore, they just get their friend or neighbour or cousin to speak to the boss man, and off they go on their high-flying career. It's pathetic.

I don't want people to do favours with me, I don't want a better life because I happened to talk to somebody at a party one time, and I don't understand why a lot of people think this is okay.

Teferi

Jesus, the amount of generalisations in this thread. So all people who went to a fee paying school are Ross-like, daft eejits who had wealthy parents and get by in life due to connections?

I was sent to a private school. My parents are distinctly middle class with not a lot of money. There are few kids in the school described in this thread, most are normal people. Most have normal jobs on their own merits.

I feel like doing a Jay and Silent Bob on this thread and go around punching people in real life for their sillyness. Don't worry, my parents will pay for it :rolleyes:

parker kent

seven-iron wrote: »

Yes 100%.

Our problem in Ireland is that not enough of our brightest and best go into politics.

We may be in a different situation now, if we had of had better educated people in the Dail for the last ten years. I'd love to know what the breakdown in the Dail is between TD's who went public and those who went private. My guess is that it is currently favoring the former by a lot!

This is a ridiculous post. It actually astounds me how many things are wrong with such a small amount of words! You are also completely ignoring University education as a determinant in being well educated.

You also seem to be working under the assumption that everything is working excellently in the UK thanks to their privately educated politicians. A cursory glance at their recent history would suggest otherwise.

Earthhorse

coconut5 wrote: »

I am totally against all of this 'connections' crap, this 'I'll put in a good word for you with that company, I know Tom very well...'. It makes me so mad. That is what is wrong with this country. People don't do anything on their own merit anymore, they just get their friend or neighbour or cousin to speak to the boss man, and off they go on their high-flying career. It's pathetic.

I don't want people to do favours with me, I don't want a better life because I happened to talk to somebody at a party one time, and I don't understand why a lot of people think this is okay.

It may or may not be okay but it is how it is; not just in this country but in pretty much every country in the world. People will help their friends out if they can, by giving them loans, jobs, or doing them favours, and a lot of friendships are formed in school.

parker kent

Teferi wrote: »

Jesus, the amount of generalisations in this thread. So all people who went to a fee paying school are Ross-like, daft eejits who had wealthy parents and get by in life due to connections?

I was sent to a private school. My parents are distinctly middle class with not a lot of money. There are few kids in the school described in this thread, most are normal people. Most have normal jobs on their own merits.

I feel like doing a Jay and Silent Bob on this thread and go around punching people in real life for their sillyness. Don't worry, my parents will pay for it :rolleyes:

I have to agree with this view. Generalisations normally rule all topics like this one. I know plenty of privately educated people. Some are knobs, some are sound, some are thick and some are smart. Pretty much the same as in any school.

The other end of the spectrum is when some people privately educated think all schools in disadvantaged areas are entirely made up of drug dealers, scum and idiots. Reason appears to be the first thing out the window here.

LizT

My brother went to boarding school and it was the best thing for him. He was bullied in primary school and would have ended up in the same school as the bullies. He wanted to go to boarding school and so he was went. He's in UCD now and although he didn't get the best leaving cert ever, he is a more well rounded than he would have been at secondary school. It was the best decision for him, but it doesn't suit some people.

Some people want the best education possible for their children, and if they're wealthy enough to afford that possibility, it's not really anyone else's business.

Gyalist

Last January when the vast majority of schools closed because of small amount of snow, my son's school opened on time and had the full schedule of classes before the Minister of Education, in his wisdom, ordered that all schools be closed. He went to school 40 minutes earlier than usual last Tuesday because a teacher offered to give them an extra Latin class. I've yet to hear of a state school teacher voluntarily giving so much of their time.

On Saturdays, depending on the season, he has a choice of tennis, cricket, hockey, rugby and other sports - unheard of in state schools. Parent/teacher meetings are held after 6 pm for the convenience of the parents and not the staff. Those mysterious Friday afternoon "staff meetings" that only seem to be held just before long holiday weekends don't happen at his school. He never misses a class because of in-service training or the school being used for elections, etc. This morning I went to play an early-morning squash game and when I arrived at the club at 7:30, there were already students from St. Mary's (not my son's school) there waiting for their PE teachers and tennis coaches to arrive. They played until 8:45 before heading off to start their classes. I'd love to hear of a state school that gives their students those opportunities.

It costs a lot but I choose to do what's best for him. I'm not prepared for him to be a guinea pig in someone's social-engineering experiment. I'll give him the best chances that I can afford although it would be ultimately up to him to make the most of the opportunities.

Pace2008

Gyalist wrote: »

He went to school 40 minutes earlier than usual last Tuesday because a teacher offered to give them an extra Latin class. I've yet to hear of a state school teacher voluntarily giving so much of their time.

Several did so in the public school I attended.

It costs a lot but I choose to do what's best for him. I'm not prepared for him to be a guinea pig in someone's social-engineering experiment . I'll give him the best chances that I can afford although it would be ultimately up to him to make the most of the opportunities.

Got forbid he should have to rub shoulders with people from a different social demographic. I respect your decision to send your child to the school you feel will offer him the best opportunities in life, but don't imply that there are no decent public schools out there. A thorough background check is obviously essential, but you'll find that there are plenty of state schools of good repute that consistently produce quality students.

LizT

Pace2008 wrote: »

Several did so in the public school I attended.

It will obviously depend on the school and the teachers. I went to a state school and some of the teachers would leave a cloud of dust behind them in their haste to get out as quickly as possible. I had one teacher that offered us extra lessons in order to finish the course - one teacher out of 8.

Pace2008

lizt wrote: »

It will obviously depend on the school and the teachers. I went to a state school and some of the teachers would leave a cloud of dust behind them in their haste to get out as quickly as possible. I had one teacher that offered us extra lessons in order to finish the course - one teacher out of 8.

I'm just trying to offer some balanced and concilliatory views since the "sides" seem to be polarising and the thread is descending into the usual "all public schools are ****"/"fee-paying schools are for spoilt ****" farce.

flas

seven-iron wrote: »

Most business owners, entrepreneurs and doctors come from private schools. Same with all the high level judges. I'm definitely sending my kids to private school. I think they'll get the best possible education and hopefully the best opportunities in life.

yeah and they all certainly know how to run business into the ground!

LizT

Pace2008 wrote: »

I'm just trying to offer some balanced and concilliatory views since the "sides" seem to be polarising and the thread is descending into the usual "all public schools are ****"/"fee-paying schools are for spoilt ****" farce.

Fair enough, I understand that. It's just in my (public) school, you could get a good education or a crap one depending on the teachers you got. For every good/ dedicated teacher, there was another lazy one. It's hard to measure the standard of a school like that.

LizT

flas wrote: »

yeah and they all certainly know how to run business into the ground!

Generalization much?

Gyalist

lily09 wrote: »

Wouldnt send a child to private school. Yes im a teacher (on my lunch break) Teachers in private schools can often be underqualified as the pay is not as good. I was offered half my current pay at one in Munster. Also private schools will very rarely take children with any form of special needs (dyslexia etc) so it skews their results. Suppose if you want to network though would be the right place.

All the qualifications in the world would count for nothing if the teachers themselves do not have high expectations of their students. I'd rather take my chances with an under-qualified teacher who expects his students to achieve than with a qualified time-serving teacher who just does the bare minimum.

All private schools are not created equally. I just checked my son's yearbook and all of his teachers, except for the Art teacher, have a PGCE or H.Dip. Half of them have at least one Master's degree and three of them have Ph.Ds.

sensibleken

seven-iron wrote: »

Hang on, I take your point but we haven't tried it yet though! So, how do you know it wouldn't work? I think the UK system is brilliant.

The title of fifth largest economy in the world speaks for itself. EDIT:Their NHS is significantly better than our HSE. So it shows everyone gets looked after! So to say it is cronyism is ridiculous.

You do realise that the person who put the NHS together, Aneurin Bevan, left school at 13 after performing poorly right?

Sky King

I was sent to a private school (didn't really want to go) and from the extensive chats I had with my mates now (none of whom attended one) I think that the standard of education is pretty much the exact same.

We just had great rugger and hockey facilities (neither of which I have any interest in whatsoever so it was kind of a waste sending me there). I had the same mix of very good and shockingly bad teachers that every one else did.

My primary school was probably the roughest in kilkenny and I got a great education there, and if I am ever unfortunate enough to be tricked into having kids, they'd be sent to the closest secondary school.

It's a load of cack... college is where one is properly educated and that's where the dense rich kids lose out to the sloggers that were educated by the brothers.

stovelid

biko wrote: »

If you're a bright kid where you attend school won't matter much.

Essentially but not necessarily true. Even if you're bright, you may not do well or push yourself if you are in a disruptive environment or your home/school environment has an inimical attitude (or even just disinterest) in educational achievement and progress to third-level.

Sugar Free

A surprisingly interesting discussion for AH!

I'm actually not sure where I stand. I definitely think public schools can be more hit and miss and for certain companies in some sectors the school and college you attended will be of some importance. To me, that is more about fitting in with the culture and ethos rather than snobbery.

I went to a very good public school which consistently places high in the league tables (though people can argue about the validity of these tables). I was also naturally bright and a good student. That took care of the academic side.

However the school also placed a big emphasis on sport and through this each year becomes a tight knit group and developed into confident, rounded young men. Even now, I'm still good friends with several of my classmates, not because of parochialism but from the bonds we formed and experiences (mainly sporting) we shared.

All this can undoubtedly be found in private schools too. I feel however, that it may be less commonly found in public schools.

So would I send any children I may have to a private school? If it had a reputation for producing bright, good-natured students then yes I would.

If a public school had a similiar reputation then I wouldn't hesitate to send them there either.

If it was feasible for me to send any sons to my secondary school, I'd do it in a heartbeat! // nostalgia

fontanalis

I'd say a lot of former students of private schools really moved and shook Anglo Irish Skank.

flas

Gyalist wrote: »

Last January when the vast majority of schools closed because of small amount of snow, my son's school opened on time and had the full schedule of classes before the Minister of Education, in his wisdom, ordered that all schools be closed. He went to school 40 minutes earlier than usual last Tuesday because a teacher offered to give them an extra Latin class. I've yet to hear of a state school teacher voluntarily giving so much of their time.

On Saturdays, depending on the season, he has a choice of tennis, cricket, hockey, rugby and other sports - unheard of in state schools. Parent/teacher meetings are held after 6 pm for the convenience of the parents and not the staff. Those mysterious Friday afternoon "staff meetings" that only seem to be held just before long holiday weekends don't happen at his school. He never misses a class because of in-service training or the school being used for elections, etc. This morning I went to play an early-morning squash game and when I arrived at the club at 7:30, there were already students from St. Mary's (not my son's school) there waiting for their PE teachers and tennis coaches to arrive. They played until 8:45 before heading off to start their classes. I'd love to hear of a state school that gives their students those opportunities.

It costs a lot but I choose to do what's best for him. I'm not prepared for him to be a guinea pig in someone's social-engineering experiment. I'll give him the best chances that I can afford although it would be ultimately up to him to make the most of the opportunities.

this happened in the school i attened also, we used to hate when we would be made play anything else except football in PE, especially something like tennis. it was a boys school, with some boarders but most of the students were day boys, and in 3rd year they got rid of all the boarders althoughter. it was still a public school, no fees were needed to attened as a day pubil,it was just a very well ran school, huge achievements in sports nationally aswell, most leinster A medals won in senior gaa and underage aswell. most of the school's we would regularly encounter on our travels due to the football would also be like our, but then again they were all country schools like our own, in county towns and the likes.

id say a good 80% of my year went on to 3rd level education. the teachers would give up there free time to help any student and regularly did, its not something specifically to private schools.

Pace2008

stovelid wrote: »

Essentially but not necessarily true. Even if you're bright, you may not do well or push yourself if you are in a disruptive environment or your home/school environment has an inimical attitude (or even just disinterest) in educational achievement and progress to third-level.

I'd have to agree with Biko; I think the cream will usually rise to the top, especially since most LC subjects can be easily self-taught by someone with a strong academic inclination.

I reckon it's the more average students who'd either make it or break it depending on environment.

seven-iron

You do realise that the person who put the NHS together, Aneurin Bevan, left school at 13 after performing poorly right?

Your missing my point. I'm not saying that people from public schools are less likely to find success.

I'm saying that by and large, people from private schools tend to go on to the better universities. Many of them tend to end up having great careers as judges, doctors and finance professionals.

In order to increase my children's chances of success I want them to go to the most prestigious private schools. Hopefully get the education that is needed for a successful career. To reiterate, public schools are not bad, of course there not, but I want my children to have better than average chances of a successful career. Whatever it may be.

Pace2008

seven-iron wrote: »

Your missing my point. I'm not saying that people from public schools are less likely to find success.

He was addressing this point:

seven-iron wrote: »

Look at the UK politicians. They all went to the best and most prestigious private schools in England. Personally, I think that is a route that we should follow. We should have our brightest and best in office. If you have a poor education you should be made step aside.

The health system you were lauding was set up by a man uneducated by today's standards.

parker kent

seven-iron wrote: »

Your missing my point. I'm not saying that people from public schools are less likely to find success.

I'm saying that by and large, people from private schools tend to go on to the better universities. Many of them tend to end up having great careers as judges, doctors and finance professionals.

In order to increase my children's chances of success I want them to go to the most prestigious private schools. Hopefully get the education that is needed for a successful career. To reiterate, public schools are not bad, of course there not, but I want my children to have better than average chances of a successful career. Whatever it may be.

So why not just judge people on their University education?

Edit: Obviously I am not saying that a person's merit should be entirely based on whether they went to University. Just getting that in before anybody accuses of saying that!