Landlord took 3300 Euro from account after moving out. Now is in receivership.

Keif.O

Hello

I am not sure if this is the right Forum, but I will try and explain my situation anyways.

Short story:
To sum up the long story. I forgot to cancel my direct debit after my lease was up. Didn’t get the deposit back before I left the country. Was told to pick up the deposit when I return. Returned 9 months later to find out that 3300 Euro has been taken out from my account after I moved out. Landlord has been going into receivership and management companies have changed. Now none of the management companies want to take responsibility for it and I’m here waiting for 4400 Euro!

Long story:
I rented an apartment in Tallaght from September 2008 till November 2009 through the landlord's agents. When my lease was up in October 2009, my landlord asked if I want to renew my lease, she could lower the rent to 950 instead of 1100. Told her I’m not interested, but I would like to stay till November, which she said is okay. I then moved out at the end of November.

I asked the agent if I could have the deposit back. They told me they can’t give it back straight away and I would need to wait a few weeks. Unfortunately I had to go abroad before they could hand over the deposit, but I told them I would be back in a few months. I was told to contact them as soon as I’m back.

It took a bit longer and I only came back at the end of August. I noticed then that my bank account got canceled. After calling the bank it turned out that the agent still took money out until February 2010, each month 1100 Euro total of 3300 Euro. They took money out until my bank account was below zero and the bank had to canceled the direct debit. And on top of that it was below zero and since I didn’t give the bank an alternative address when I moved abroad, they couldn’t contact me so they canceled the account in July 2010.

I contacted the agent, explain the situation and they told me they are very sorry, but I would need to contact the landlord's new agent because they took over the property. I contacted them, but only got very rude answers.

First giving out that I only coming to them with the issue now - Okay fair enough, I was abroad longer than expected and I didn’t notice until I was back, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still my money!
Then they gave about me not canceling my direct debit. - Erm, I never canceled any direct debit, Mobile Phone, Broadband, Landline, ESB… they all stopped taking money out when I canceled the contracts! I kind of assumed the Landlord/management company would do the same.

After that they told me the orginal agent was in charge until March 2010 for the properties and they took out the money from my account plus they would have the deposit.

I contacted the orginal agent again and then told me that yes they would have been responsible for taking out the money at the time, but the new agent took over because the landlord has been going into receivership (landlord went bankrupt and the banks are talking back the buildings). So the new agent took over everything, including the bank accounts and all the financial stuff and they are managing the properties now. So I would need to contact the new agent.

Again contacting the new agent, a woman told me to email her my situation last week and she will come back to me. After a week of no reply I called her today and she just sounded very rude again, telling me she didn’t look into this yet, because she is very busy at work and it’s most certainly not one of her priorities to clean up my mess! (whoa!) But she will contact the orginal agent when she has time.

When asking if I could expect a call back from her, possibly next week or two weeks, she just told me in a very angry tone, that “NO, I can’t give you ANY time frame. If I have news, I will contact you, good bye” And hung up. Seriously, what the heck was that?

The woman said she would look into it but admits she didn’t so far nor will she make it one of her priorities, plus she was always very rude on the phone and makes the impression that she will not look into this at all, but rather sounds that as if she is trying to waste time until I will forget about it.

I get it, not being in contact with them for 9 months and not checking my bank account while being abroad isn't the best thing to do, but still it was wrong from them to take the money! Can anyone tell me what I can do in this situation?

Thanks.

Dymo

You must be loaded if you didn't notice €3,300 gone from your account.

It's not that they took the money you gave them the money as this was a standing order not a direct debit. I presume the landlord received the money and if so then you are then one of the unsecured debtors. You may have to consult a solicitor as the management company may take them more seriously.

Ian Beale

Go to a solicitor asap.

Jarren

Ian Beale wrote: »

Go to a solicitor asap.

+1

ASAP

hobbit stomper

Dymo wrote: »

You must be loaded if you didn't notice €3,300 gone from your account.

It's not that they took the money you gave them the money as this was a standing order not a direct debit. I presume the landlord received the money and if so then you are then one of the unsecured debtors. You may have to consult a solicitor as the management company may take them more seriously.

I'm not loaded at all, in fact I'm broke! I just didn't use this account while I was abroad.

And no it was direct debit, not a standing order! Big difference, they took the money, I didn't send it!

Can anyone recommend a solicitor? I never had to deal with one. As just mentioned, I am broke at the moment and I always heard that they are expensive.

Jarren

http://www.flac.ie/contact/

Ps. Nice one on using 2 accounts btw

santiago

Before hiring a solicitor make sure that his fee is not bigger than what you are hoping to get back!

Keif.O

jarecki1976 wrote: »

http://www.flac.ie/contact/

Ps. Nice one on using 2 accounts btw

Sorry we have a communal PC which I rarely use, I just joined boards and my other house mates are all active on boards as well. Didn't notice was logged in already. A lot funnier of they don't log out of their facebook account.

Is there a forum here to get recommendation for a solicitor?

Thanks.

GerardKeating

hobbit stomper wrote: »

I'm not loaded at all, in fact I'm broke! I just didn't use this account while I was abroad.

And no it was direct debit, not a standing order! Big difference, they took the money, I didn't send it!

Can anyone recommend a solicitor? I never had to deal with one. As just mentioned, I am broke at the moment and I always heard that they are expensive.

Did you give notice in writing that you were leaving and did this notice instruct them to cancel the DD?

tricky D

There's no good news for you in this post. Harsh but true.

No point in getting p1ssed off with the new agents. It's not really their problem and I can see why they'd be annoyed as you are wasting their time. It's very bad form to even mention the individual, nevermind the company.

Your financial arrangements are your responsibility and you neglected them for 9 months. You didn't cancel the DD/SO which is your responsibility irrespective of which one you used. (You said it's a DD, but rent is a fixed amount so it should be a SO. That's pretty much the only difference between the 2 methods) Either way they're instructions by you to your bank to give XX to an account. They recieve, not take. It up to you to cancel an SO in writing. Just because many utility companies do this as a matter of courtesy, doesn't mean a landlord will or should have to.

Worst part is that you're going to have to join the list of creditors and at the end of that list.

Santiago is makes an excellent point. A solicitor is pricey and also there may be even nothing for you to claim from the landlord as the taxman gets first dibs on a bankrupt's leftovers, then probably the banks and you and the others get what is leftover, if anything.

Tea drinker

If it is DD it is the responsibility of the Landlord to cancel it - I think some are setup so only THEY can cancel it.

Kristopherus

Op, who signed the lease contract. If it was H & McD, then your dispute is with them.

tricky D

Tea drinker wrote: »

If it is DD it is the responsibility of the Landlord to cancel it - I think some are setup so only THEY can cancel it.

http://www.ipso.ie/section/ConsumerCornerDirectDebitFrequentlyAskedQuestions

How do I cancel a direct debit?
You can cancel a direct debit by writing to your bank. It is also advisable to inform the originator of the cancellation.

bla_bla

hobbit stomper wrote: »

I'm not loaded at all, in fact I'm broke! I just didn't use this account while I was abroad.

And no it was direct debit, not a standing order! Big difference, they took the money, I didn't send it!

Can anyone recommend a solicitor? I never had to deal with one. As just mentioned, I am broke at the moment and I always heard that they are expensive.

This link might help you:
http://www.legalaidboard.ie/lab/publishing.nsf/Content/Civil_Legal_Aid
I believe they are state owned and providing some help in legal matters. You could ask them what would be the best actions to follow.

Victor

I appreciate your are upset, but naming people like that doesn't help you or us and could result in a defamation case (we have no way of knowing what you said is true).

---

Most solicitors should be able to deal with a case like this, although a solicitor with receivership / company law and landlord & tenant law would be the best. www.flac.ie and www.lawsociety.ie are good starting places.

It may be important to put the receiver on immediate notice that you are owed money. That you never owed the money in the first place may put you ahead of other unsecured creditors, but perhaps not ahead of the Revenue or banks.

Keif.O

GerardKeating wrote: »

Did you give notice in writing that you were leaving and did this notice instruct them to cancel the DD?

Several times over the phone, plus met with onsite personnel the day I left. And contacted them again about deposit after I moved out.

tricky D wrote: »

No point in getting p1ssed off with the new agents. It's not really their problem and I can see why they'd be annoyed as you are wasting their time. It's very bad form to even mention the individual, nevermind the company.

Your financial arrangements are your responsibility and you neglected them for 9 months. You didn't cancel the DD/SO which is your responsibility irrespective of which one you used. (You said it's a DD, but rent is a fixed amount so it should be a SO. That's pretty much the only difference between the 2 methods) Either way they're instructions by you to your bank to give XX to an account. They recieve, not take. It up to you to cancel an SO in writing. Just because many utility companies do this as a matter of courtesy, doesn't mean a landlord will or should have to.

I'm not pissed off with the management company. The first agent are very friendly, also most people at the second agent. Except that woman who is very rude and seems to be doing nothing at all apart from being rude.

It clearly states in my 20 page contract that it will be deducted by direct debit for a term of 12 months.
After the 12 months they stopped, and in october 2009 I got a phone call from the landlord (lady) herself asking if I want to renew. After saying no, we agreed that I will move out at end of november and will pay 950 Euro for november by transfering the money into her account. I received an email from her with her bank details. I transferred the 950 and no money was taken out in november! But then after I moved out 1100 has been taken out again until my account got frozen by the bank and that all while I was abroad and did not check my bank account.
As I was told by the first agent, Landlord is now bankrupt and the Bank is taking back the properties and put the new agent in charge. The phone number, email address and website from the landlord are all down.

Kristopherus wrote: »

Op, who signed the lease contract. If it was H & McD, then your dispute is with them.

Signature from Landlord (whom I never met) and Agent from the first agent as well as company stamp from them.

bla_bla wrote: »

This link might help you:
http://www.legalaidboard.ie/lab/publishing.nsf/Content/Civil_Legal_Aid
I believe they are state owned and providing some help in legal matters. You could ask them what would be the best actions to follow.

Thanks very much. Will be checking that out.

Victor wrote: »

I appreciate your are upset, but naming people like that doesn't help you or us and could result in a defamation case (we have no way of knowing what you said is true).

Okay maybe I should not have used names of the agents of the management companies. But I should be able to use the Management companies name.
If I buy something at Tesco and say the sales woman was bad, I get that I should not use her name, but I should still be able to say it was at Tesco.

As said above, first agent have done a great job in trying to help me so far, also called me back within an hour after trying to track down who is in charge of the property now.

amcalester

Who were you paying by Direct Debit? Was it to a company or an individual? And are you sure it was a direct debit and not a standing order (a lot of people don't know the difference).

If you were paying by direct debit and they continued collecting money from your account after you cancelled it with your bank then under the direct debit indemnity scheme the bank must refund you the money deducted from your account. If you didn't notify the bank to cancel the direct debit then it gets trickier.

You might still be able to claim under the indemnity but it will be harder to prove that there was no authorisation on the direct debit originator to collect that money.

Basically contact your bank and say that every direct debit after a certain date was unauthorised and take it from there. Better of doing that by registered letter as banks try to pass the buck when it comes to unauthorised direct debits.

Edit: The reason I ask about the direct debit again is that an individual can't set up a direct debit to come out of your account only a business can do this. So, if you were paying by direct debit to a letting agent then your dispute is with them and not the landlord as it was the letting agent that continued to collect the money.

If you payed the landlord direct by standing order then it was your responsibility to cancel the standing order with your bank and is you didn't do this then you have no recourse. (It was also your responsibility to cancel the direct debit as well the agents.)

Kristopherus

If all the previous advice does not work out for you, then you should register a charge for the €3300 against the sale, with both the new agent and the solicitor having carriage of the sale.You will havwe to get in touch with your local Courts Office for details on the best way how to register the charge.

goat2

you will be waiting a long time for that money back, as the business is gone into recievership, and maybe never see the money, you should have been more careful, i wonder how many more people this has happened to, I also think you are dealing with a crime here, as it was not an automatic transfer, and this guy should have stopped this, so the guards are your men also a solicitor, it looks like stealing to me.

Keif.O

amcalester wrote: »

Who were you paying by Direct Debit? Was it to a company or an individual? And are you sure it was a direct debit and not a standing order (a lot of people don't know the difference).

If you were paying by direct debit and they continued collecting money from your account after you cancelled it with your bank then under the direct debit indemnity scheme the bank must refund you the money deducted from your account. If you didn't notify the bank to cancel the direct debit then it gets trickier.

You might still be able to claim under the indemnity but it will be harder to prove that there was no authorisation on the direct debit originator to collect that money.

Basically contact your bank and say that every direct debit after a certain date was unauthorised and take it from there. Better of doing that by registered letter as banks try to pass the buck when it comes to unauthorised direct debits.

Edit: The reason I ask about the direct debit again is that an individual can't set up a direct debit to come out of your account only a business can do this. So, if you were paying by direct debit to a letting agent then your dispute is with them and not the landlord as it was the letting agent that continued to collect the money.

If you payed the landlord direct by standing order then it was your responsibility to cancel the standing order with your bank and is you didn't do this then you have no recourse. (It was also your responsibility to cancel the direct debit as well the agents.)

Yes I am 100% sure it was direct debit. When I signed my lease there was also a second part about the payment. I filled in my bank details and signed it, allowing the agent to deduct the amount of 1100 Euro each month for a term for 12 Months. ( yes it's stated 12 months)

I have that page right in front of me. In the contract as well as on that standalone page it says by direct debit or at the Landlords options by standing order. I never actually went to my bank and told them to setup a standing order. All I did was filling out the page and signed it to allow them to take money from my account (for 12 months).

Account Name: XXXXXXXXXXX Ltd.
Bank: AIB, O'Connell Street, Dublin 1
etc.

And apart from that, on my bank statements that I got from the bank it says: DD Apartment.
And then when my balance was at zero it says:
DD return, for which I got charged 10 Euro.

I asked the bank what DD return stands for and why I was charged 10 Euro. They told me DD stands for Direct Debit, and because my account didn't have enough money in March, the direct debit was canceled and I got charged 10 Euro for a failed direct debit transaction.

ztoical

goat2 wrote: »

I also think you are dealing with a crime here, as it was not an automatic transfer, and this guy should have stopped this, so the guards are your men also a solicitor, it looks like stealing to me.

Looks like foolishness to me. I'm sorry OP but you need to take some of the responsibility here for not managing your own affairs. Why did you never check your account while away? Pretty much every Irish bank offers internet and 24 hour phone banking so there's no excuse for not taking 5 mins to check whats happening with your account while overseas. I could understand not noticing for one month but three? If you were gone for 9 months but the account was closed after 3 did your bank not try to contact you when it closed the account? Did you not update your address with them to your overseas address or have someone checking your mail while away?

amcalester

Sounds like a direct debit then was taken by the first agent and it was up to both of you to cancel at your respective ends. Query it with your bank by registered letter saying you want to make a claim under the direct debit indemnity also send a similar letter to the agent as they took they money from your account not the landlord and it was they who continued to take money from your account so it is they that should refund you.

PS. It could still be a standing order as letting agents sometimes get customers to fill in instructions to set up a standing order which they then send to the bank, in this case the reference could have been set up as DD Apartment making it look like a DD. Though if it says DD return then it most likely is a direct debit.

Xiney

To be honest, since the direct debit seems to have been restarted by the landlord, this is starting to look like fraud.

amcalester

Xiney wrote: »

To be honest, since the direct debit seems to have been restarted by the landlord, this is starting to look like fraud.

The landlord couldnt have restated the direct debit only the letting agent. Private individuals cant set up a direct debit.

Xiney

semantics.

amcalester

Yes and no.

If the landlord took the money then it is the landlord that should be chased for the refund but if its the agent then the OP should chase the agent for the money as it is they that took it from him.

Distorted

OP - a little tip. Start doing everything in writing, so that you have a record of it.

Write to your bank asking for confirmation of whether it was a direct debit or a standing order. So that you have it definitively in writing. Also who it was paid to.

Write to both agencies telling them they have been involved in a wrongful deduction of funds which may or may not be fraudulent, and asking them to respond within 14 days in writing. Ditto to the landlord. (although I am not surprised the second agents want nothing to do with it, as they would seem to have been involved posthumously).

Thus find out definitively if the funds went to the first agent or to the landlord. If to the first agent who then passed it onto the landlords, you may have a case worth pursuing. If the landlord, you may have a case against the recievers.

Contact the garda with your concerns. Although it my suspicion it will be viewed as a civil matter.

Then once your facts are clear, decide on whether it is worth pursuing further in terms of cost efficiency.

Oscar K

Management company/landlord are obliged by law (Residential Tenacies Act 2004) to return your deposit promptly provided you have adhered to all the obligations imposed on you as a tenant eg no damages to the property except for normal wear and tear, all rent paid and sufficient notice given that you were ending the Lease etc. Asking you to wait a few weeks for your deposit seems to go beyond the parameters of 'promptly'. To be honest your probably not gona get a penny out of the landlord in that you are an unsecured debtor as a previous poster said so i would go after the management company who were in place during your tenancy. they were managaing the property so it was up to them to see that you got back the deposit. forget a solicitor for the time being if you cant afford one and get onto the Private Residential Tenancies Board prtb.ie. The have a dispute resoultion service so they will prob be able to help you out.

hope u get sorted. wouldnt let it lie if i were you anyway!

not even wrong

http://www.ipso.ie/section/section/YourRightsasaPayer
If it is established that an unauthorised direct debit was charged to your account, you are guaranteed an immediate refund by your bank of the amount so charged where you notify your bank without undue delay on becoming aware of the unauthorised direct debit, and in any event no later than 13 months after the date of debiting of such direct debit to your account

It's your bank who has to refund you, I'd get on to them first thing Monday morning.

Sound Bite

OP assuming I've understood your situation as follows:

Direct Debit signed for with letting agent.
DD not a standing order as many of the bigger companies set themselves up as DD originators.
The letting agent presented for direct debit payment after the term of the agreement.
Your authorisation was with the letting agent not the landlord.

Therefore,
The letting agent wrongly collected money from your account. They owe you.
Even if they passed said funds onto the landlord this is their error.

What you need to do is:
- Take a copy of your lease, especially the part re the 12 months DD authorisation.
- Take it to the Bank as ask them to claim the funds back under indemnity.
- Have to admin I'm not sure if this can be done in cases where you did not cancel the DD with the Bank.

Also visit the letting agent:
Tell them the agreement was made with them for 12 months & that they had no right to collect or pass on funds to a third party after that period. Also advise them that you will be informing them about the company's abuse of DD originator status.

If they still refuse & you cannot claim under indemnity, advise them that you are going to speak with solicitor & follow it through.

Your issue is with the letting agency & the landlord, in receivership or not, has nothing to do with it. Its up to the letting agent to reclaim the funds from the landlord.

Good Luck

amcalester

Sound Bite wrote: »

OP assuming I've understood your situation as follows:

Direct Debit signed for with letting agent.
DD not a standing order as many of the bigger companies set themselves up as DD originators.
The letting agent presented for direct debit payment after the term of the agreement.
Your authorisation was with the letting agent not the landlord.

Therefore,
The letting agent wrongly collected money from your account. They owe you.
Even if they passed said funds onto the landlord this is their error.

What you need to do is:
- Take a copy of your lease, especially the part re the 12 months DD authorisation.
- Take it to the Bank as ask them to claim the funds back under indemnity.
- Have to admin I'm not sure if this can be done in cases where you did not cancel the DD with the Bank.

Also visit the letting agent:
Tell them the agreement was made with them for 12 months & that they had no right to collect or pass on funds to a third party after that period. Also advise them that you will be informing them about the company's abuse of DD originator status.

If they still refuse & you cannot claim under indemnity, advise them that you are going to speak with solicitor & follow it through.

Your issue is with the letting agency & the landlord, in receivership or not, has nothing to do with it. Its up to the letting agent to reclaim the funds from the landlord.

Good Luck

I agree with this but would add that you should write to the bank instead of calling into a branch. Write to the customer complaints department and they will investigate much more thoroughly than in branch.