Cyclist pulled over by M/C Guard N4

rp

Last Wed morning about 8am, coming into town on the N4, a cyclist had been pulled over by a m/c Guard, just before the M50 junction. The cyclist was rejoining the main N4 traffic into town, and the Guard putting his notebook away.
Just curious if it was anyone here, and what the 'pull' was for. Was it for not using the pedestrian bridge over the M50? If so, looks like he successfully made the point that it is not for cyclists....

Idleater

My Father who cycles in that way (but, so he tells me cycles over the "footbridge" on the way in) says that the guards have been there on numerous occasions suggesting to cyclists not to go over the vehicular traffic bridge.

There is nothing like that on the way out of town where cyclists are not forced to turn into Palmerstown. Presumably the logic is that if you survive the trip into town you should be well able to handle the outbound journey.

Funny though, the traffic is backed up all the way from the Palmerstown lights now so there is not much motion on the bridge at all and is quite easy actually to cycle with the traffic.

Cookie_Monster

that's ridiculous. if it's not a motorway you have every right to be there, if the Gardai are now suggesting cycling on the footpath: :rolleyes: (does the ped bridge have a bike lane, I don't know myself)

mloc123

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's ridiculous. if it's not a motorway you have every right to be there, if the Gardai are now suggesting cycling on the footpath: :rolleyes: (does the ped bridge have a bike lane, I don't know myself)

It is a cycle track and it is signposted from before liffey valley, there is also a 'no cyclist beyond this point' sign I think. Heading into town I would use the cycle track as it is as handy as the road.. on the way out I stick to the road.

Edit: on the way into town it can be quite dangerous to stay on the road, there are 5 lanes in total and you will need to cross 2 from the bus lane to continue into town.

rp

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

(does the ped bridge have a bike lane, I don't know myself)

No, it is pedestrian-only: there is a UK 'shared-use' sign (vertically split blue circle "Pedestrian | Bicycle"), but this is not a valid Irish traffic sign: what that means, if you as a cyclist are in collision with a pedestrian, you don't have a leg to stand on, legally.

mloc123

rp wrote: »

No, it is pedestrian-only: there is a UK 'shared-use' sign (vertically split blue circle "Pedestrian | Bicycle"), but this is not a valid Irish traffic sign: what that means, if you as a cyclist are in collision with a pedestrian, you don't have a leg to stand on, legally.

The bridge is slit and has bike symbols on one side afaik?

rp

mloc123 wrote: »

The bridge is slit and has bike symbols on one side afaik?

Means nothing: Irish traffic law requires one of RUS009 or RUS009a to be present, anything else is just graffiti.

S.I. No. 274/1998: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS, 1998
"14. (1) A cycle track shall be indicated by traffic sign number RUS 009 or RUS 009A provided in association with traffic sign number RRM 022 (continuous white line) or RRM023 (broken white line) which latter signs may be marked on the right-hand edge of the cycle track or on the right-hand and left-hand edges of the cycle track.

Idleater

mloc123 wrote: »

The bridge is slit and has bike symbols on one side afaik?

it does.

The only "illegal"/non conformatory signs (Monument may know better) are as you turn down the slip road from the N4 to LiffeyValley/Deadmans/Hospital where there is a bus only sign with the bicycle stickered off. The cycle lane at this point is on the footpath and merges with the buslane on the way down the hill.

Should you happen not to see that sign and continue on the buslane that goes straight with the N4, you are greeted with a correct bicycle/bus buslane sign.

When you merge with the traffic coming up from liffeyvalley/deadmans/hospital, again you are greeted with a correct bicycle/bus buslane sign and you can validly end up at the garda in question (at the bus stop at liffey valley) having only missed one (illegal) sign, and one sign that says "cyclists <-" suggesting you turn down the liffey valley slip.

I think the "no cyclists beyond this point" sign is on the way up from the roundabout, so you could never see it.

Vélo

I never knew the exact law on this.

If a cycle lane doesn't have one of these, then it's not a cycle lane?
l

Bunnyhopper

Vélo wrote: »

If a cycle lane doesn't have one of these, then it's not a cycle lane?

That or RUS009A

See el tonto's post here.

rp

Vélo wrote: »

If a cycle lane doesn't have one of these, then it's not a cycle lane?

That is one of the two signs allowed for in law to denote a cycle lane: the other one (RUS009a I think) is a black bicycle on a white background with a red circle around it - a sign that *should* mean "no cycling" if it was consistent with other road signs (or should this sign only be used in conjunction with a curfew "hours" sign?).

Read all about it, it's a bit obtuse...

rp

mloc123 wrote: »

on the way into town it can be quite dangerous to stay on the road, there are 5 lanes in total and you will need to cross 2 from the bus lane to continue into town.

I was just chatting to some people at work who drive home that way a lot, they are driven demented by people ending up in the wrong lane and pulling a late change - wanting to go into town and finding themselves on the off-ramp.
It would be much safer for all road users if the M50 was a left turn rather than a straight-on. I think it was designed when the M50 had a toll gate and the traffic used to back up.
Coming out of town after the Palmerstown lights it works this way, and it's no problem on a bike, just be sure and get out of the bus lane ahead of the junction and hold primary position in the left hand lane.

mloc123

rp wrote: »

I was just chatting to some people at work who drive home that way a lot, they are driven demented by people ending up in the wrong lane and pulling a late change - wanting to go into town and finding themselves on the off-ramp.
It would be much safer for all road users if the M50 was a left turn rather than a straight-on. I think it was designed when the M50 had a toll gate and the traffic used to back up.
Coming out of town after the Palmerstown lights it works this way, and it's no problem on a bike, just be sure and get out of the bus lane ahead of the junction and hold primary position in the left hand lane.

Yeah, coming out of town is grand. Just need to get out of the bus lane a few hundred meters before it becomes the m50 slip road.

paddyduc

Things are much simpler on this end of the N4. I love sligo.:D

irishmotorist

mloc123 wrote: »

It is a cycle track and it is signposted from before liffey valley, there is also a 'no cyclist beyond this point' sign I think.

It was there when they were doing works to build the freeflow junction over the M50, but I haven't seen it there in, I'd say, over a year. It was quite an amateur looking sign, if I remember correctly, and the bike was crudely sprayed off the Bus/Cycle lane sign. From what I can see of it though, it's legally a cycle lane as well as a bus lane along the N4 there.

nereid wrote: »

My Father who cycles in that way (but, so he tells me cycles over the "footbridge" on the way in) says that the guards have been there on numerous occasions suggesting to cyclists not to go over the vehicular traffic bridge.

mloc123 wrote: »

Edit: on the way into town it can be quite dangerous to stay on the road, there are 5 lanes in total and you will need to cross 2 from the bus lane to continue into town.

I've never experienced a stop from the Gardai here, but despite the fact that "I have every right to be there", I'm reconsidering my position on it recently. I cycle to work this way and have never experienced a problem with it at all - take a good position, signal well and cars have always let me across the lane that merges with the M50 (northbound) into the straight-on lane.

However, a few weeks ago, I was driving in this way and saw a cyclist in the position that I would usually be - having joined the straight-on lane. There was a truck and a van in the same lane as him, as if going on straight towards town. The van was tailgating the truck very closely and the driver obviously realised that he wanted to move to the left lane and head north on the M50. He moved across towards the left lane as the truck was passing the bike. Because he was so close to the truck and the size of the truck, he didn't see the bike and as he was halfway between lanes he saw the bike that he was about to hit and swerved violently back into the straight-on lane before retrying his manoeuvre. Since then, I've been spending more time looking behind me than in front of me to make sure there are no vehicles in other vehicle's blindspots when I'm changing lane here.

Like I said, this is making me re-evaluate the junction and I'm considering taking the longer route (the debatable cycle lane, though I thought it was a cycle-lane and footpath) for the sake of a few minutes. The moral of this for me is:
1. It is a dangerous junction.
2. Yes I am allowed to be there.
3. Being allowed to be there doesn't make it clever to be there.
4. I always say that you are responsible for your own safety. Even assuming that you're perfect, other people aren't and make mistakes - like what I saw, described above.

chakattack

Is a shared bus lane/cycle lane still a cycle lane after 19:00?

mloc123

irishmotorist wrote: »

3. Being allowed to be there doesn't make it clever to be there.

This is the main point imo, I doubt the Garai are telling people they are not allowed on it... more that it is in their interest to use the foot/cycle bridge.

Idleater

rp wrote: »

I was just chatting to some people at work who drive home that way a lot, they are driven demented by people ending up in the wrong lane and pulling a late change - wanting to go into town and finding themselves on the off-ramp.
It would be much safer for all road users if the M50 was a left turn rather than a straight-on. I think it was designed when the M50 had a toll gate and the traffic used to back up.

With the greatest of respect to the people at your workplace, and bearing in mind that this is a Friday and I'm in the mood for an argument, that is incorrect.


From Lucan towards town, the road is straight on for all road users in the left two driving lanes, the rightmost lane directly going right to the m50 southbound.

The m50 northbound is a lane that begins after the bus stop, so anyone "ending up there" has either driven up the buslane from liffey valley, or made an incorrect manoeuvre.

From town outbound, the two lanes at palmerstown lights go straight west, with the buslane terminating to allow a left lane for north and southbound m50. Again, you cannot end up in the wrong lane here by chance, you make a specific manoeuvre to go onto the m50.

A Cyclist navigating each end of the junction is located in a terminating buslane in either direction and must merge with the left driving lane (as opposed to slip lane) to continue straight.

yogipear

I have to say I always use the cyclelane on the "foot Bridge".
it does take a bit longer but i feel a lot safer and the cycle through palmerstown village is quite nice in the morning and the evening.
I know I can use the main N4 and would not criticise anyone else for doing so but I just prefer foot bridge.

mloc123

yogipear wrote: »

palmerstown village is quite nice in the morning

It is, peaceful.

irishmotorist

I quite enjoy the sense of superiority when passing lines of stationary traffic. Will I lose this glow if I start taking the cycle lane?

Also, for regular users of it, how clean is it? I.e. is it kept clear of debris or is there a 50/50 chance of going through the remains of a broken bottle?

mloc123

irishmotorist wrote: »

I quite enjoy the sense of superiority when passing lines of stationary traffic. Will I lose this glow if I start taking the cycle lane?

Also, for regular users of it, how clean is it? I.e. is it kept clear of debris or is there a 50/50 chance of going through the remains of a broken bottle?

The only section of the cycle path I use on the n4 is from LV to Palmerstown, it is generally free of glass. I use the bus lane from the leixlip junction in as the cycle path is generally cover in the remains of smashed bus shelters.