Are being nice and being successful mutually exclusive concepts?

FreudianSlippers

I just noticed on AH and other forums recently that a lot of people really care, deeply and sincerely for other people that they may not even know.
But at the same time it seems that many of these same people are feeling an extreme pinch (or worse) from the economic situation.

It got me thinking about success: Can you be a genuinely nice person and be successful?

I don't mean nice as in a nice chap, but can you have selflessness and be monetarily successful?
I'd argue that the answer is no. I can't really think of anyone I know or in public that has genuine monetary success and is selfless.
I know many people that believe they are selfless because they give a few bob to charity every month - but that just proves how selfish they are... they do that to make themselves feel better, not to actually make a difference.

Also, does it make me a bad person to care more about myself, my family and my friends than people I don't know? I would definitely destroy the life of someone I didn't know to fix the life of a family member or close friend. I know I'm an asshole though

Just wondering what the general thought on this is or if anyone can think of a public figure that is genuinely selfless and monetarily successful?

listermint

Bill Gates ?

poisonated

I think that people who spend their life trying to make people like them can never really be successful. I think that you do need to be self centred this world.

liah

Well, I can think of a few people who come across as certainly genuine, compassionate, all around nice individuals who are in the public eye.

They're certainly not mutually exclusive, it's just an incredibly rare combination because much more often it's easier to be the dick to get ahead than to play it by the books. But it's not impossible.

Sanjuro

I think it depends on what level of success and niceness you're talking about. I know one guy, very successful, very rich. He's quite altruistic, and gets on with most people. Very monitarily generous, and will genuinely help people if they ask. However, his family life has suffered quite badly due to his success. He's separated from his wife, and while his kids get on with him, he doesn't have the relationship he should have had with them. So, by some measurement, he's successful, and a lovely guy. But some things have suffered because of it. It's a difficult thing to measure.

FreudianSlippers

listermint wrote: »

Bill Gates ?

Yeah, that was the first example I thought of. But I remember seeing leaked emails of him being an absolute prick.
They give a lot to charity, but again is that just fulfilling their own selfish desire to feel that they are "doing" something? Give it all away if you are so selfless, right?

liah

poisonated wrote: »

I think that people who spend their life trying to make people like them can never really be successful. I think that you do need to be self centred this world.

You can be nice without your target being everyone liking you.

bonerm

What about the kid who set up Facebook? Worth about $6billion, not sure if he ****ed anyone over and apparently still lives relatively modestly. Tho that said I'm sure he's a competitive killer just like any other winner you'd hear about.

SeaFields

Isn't it that you gotta be super, super rich before you start to become selfless?

Like when you see billionaires donating their fortunes to charity. Its like the challenge of making their fortune is surpassed.

Black Swan

Nice and rich works for me

WindSock

I know lots of sucessful people who are nice socially. They may differ while doing business though, I don't know.

DublinWriter

Two that instantly spring to mind are Dale Carnegie and Felix Denis (Denis was one of the original choices for 'The Apprentice' before Lord God Sir Sugar, but turned the offer down as he found the shows concept to be too 'distasteful').

Such successful people tend to live modest lives and give quietly to charity, so they aren't in the public eye as much as those that go on reality shows.

WeeBushy

Absolutely not.

Many of my lecturers (hugely successful in their fields) are incredibly nice, warm, helpful people.

On various work placements that I've been on the owners/managers were generally the nicest people I met within the business.

Thee are just examples and there are loads of them, as are there loads of examples of complete arseholes who are successful, but by no means are success and being nice mutually exclusive.

FreudianSlippers

Sanjuro wrote: »

I think it depends on what level of success and niceness you're talking about. I know one guy, very successful, very rich. He's quite altruistic, and gets on with most people. Very monitarily generous, and will genuinely help people if they ask. However, his family life has suffered quite badly due to his success. He's separated from his wife, and while his kids get on with him, he doesn't have the relationship he should have had with them. So, by some measurement, he's successful, and a lovely guy. But some things have suffered because of it. It's a difficult thing to measure.

This is exactly what I mean. You have to sacrifice parts of yourself/your life to achieve higher success.

Nobody can actually say they have 'enough' money... it just seems like it builds up and there are always more things and houses and cars.

I'm totally guilty of this recently, which is why I made this thread...
On one hand I feel like I'm being an asshole for driving a nice car and living in a nice house and perhaps taking advantage of those who have lost a lot.
But at the same time I think "why should I not enjoy my success? I'm not trying to rub it in anyone's face!"

It's really a conundrum IMO

FreudianSlippers

bonerm wrote: »

What about the kid who set up Facebook? Worth about $6billion, not sure if he ****ed anyone over and apparently still lives relatively modestly. Tho that said I'm sure he's a competitive killer just like any other winner you'd hear about.

Allegedly he stole the idea (or perhaps a working model?) from another student at Harvard.

Degsy

OisinT wrote: »

I just noticed on AH and other forums recently that a lot of people really care, deeply and sincerely for other people that they may not even know.
But at the same time it seems that many of these same people are feeling an extreme pinch (or worse) from the economic situation.

It got me thinking about success: Can you be a genuinely nice person and be successful?

I don't mean nice as in a nice chap, but can you have selflessness and be monetarily successful?
I'd argue that the answer is no. I can't really think of anyone I know or in public that has genuine monetary success and is selfless.
I know many people that believe they are selfless because they give a few bob to charity every month - but that just proves how selfish they are... they do that to make themselves feel better, not to actually make a difference.

Also, does it make me a bad person to care more about myself, my family and my friends than people I don't know? I would definitely destroy the life of someone I didn't know to fix the life of a family member or close friend. I know I'm an asshole though

Just wondering what the general thought on this is or if anyone can think of a public figure that is genuinely selfless and monetarily successful?

Remember the Fallacy Of Sucess!

marco_polo

listermint wrote: »

Bill Gates ?

Taking absolutely nothing away from his extraordinary generosity especially in recent years, however it ought to be noted that the early history of Microsoft would be fairly dubious with numerous allegations of patent infringements etc..

maxxie

listermint wrote: »

Bill Gates ?

the guy who talks about population control! not that nice

liah

How are you defining "nice," by the way? Is giving to charity or being generally 100% selfless the only thing that counts? Because, in fairness, that's a bit unrealistic.

jackiebaron

bonerm wrote: »

What about the kid who set up Facebook? Worth about $6billion, not sure if he ****ed anyone over and apparently still lives relatively modestly. Tho that said I'm sure he's a competitive killer just like any other winner you'd hear about.

That wanker stole college records to set up facebook. Then he sold it all to the CIA as well. He'd do anything for a buck, slimy bollocks.

AnonoBoy

jackiebaron wrote: »

That wanker stole college records to set up facebook. Then he sold it all to the CIA as well. He'd do anything for a buck, slimy bollocks.

He was great in Zombieland though.

Jev/N

bonerm wrote: »

What about the kid who set up Facebook? Worth about $6billion, not sure if he ****ed anyone over and apparently still lives relatively modestly.

Apparently he did

Sanjuro

OisinT wrote: »

This is exactly what I mean. You have to sacrifice parts of yourself/your life to achieve higher success.

Nobody can actually say they have 'enough' money... it just seems like it builds up and there are always more things and houses and cars.

I'm totally guilty of this recently, which is why I made this thread...
On one hand I feel like I'm being an asshole for driving a nice car and living in a nice house and perhaps taking advantage of those who have lost a lot.
But at the same time I think "why should I not enjoy my success? I'm not trying to rub it in anyone's face!"

It's really a conundrum IMO

Why should you feel guilty for enjoying the trappings of your own success? Unless you've got what you have earned on the back of the misery of others, I think you shouldn't feel guilty at all.

As for 'enough'? I don't quite get this myself. I mean, there are people who are monitarily incredibly successful, but just do anything to get more money, no matter how it hurts others. I just don't understand this. I earn a fairly average wage. As long as I can pay for the essentials and have a bit to play with, I don't need more. I find the whole concept of getting as much as you can on the backs of others rather sickening.

Mrmoe

I think you can depending on how you make your money in the first place. Not all businesses require you to crap down your competitors neck to be successful. There are many wealthy Irish business men who give a lot to charity and other organisations. They often do so anonymously as well so would have nothing to gain otherwise, except maybe a tax right off.

Earthhorse

OisinT wrote: »

Yeah, that was the first example I thought of. But I remember seeing leaked emails of him being an absolute prick.

Does being a prick to someone in emails make someone not nice? What I mean is, I think I'm nice but that isn't to say I'm nice all the time. An underlying personality trait isn't cancelled by some occasionally contrary behaviour.

I think success is more about drive than anything else and there's a huge tendency to badmouth people who are successful too, driven by jealousy, which isn't to say some of it's not deserved.

FreudianSlippers

liah wrote: »

How are you defining "nice," by the way? Is giving to charity or being generally 100% selfless the only thing that counts? Because, in fairness, that's a bit unrealistic.

I suppose I am saying a person who is not "nice" is someone who aggrandizes their own success by either putting someone else down or by profiting from the failure of others.

MingulayJohnny

In terms of artistically successful and still being decent cats I would class people like Jeff Bridges , Wes Studi , Ray Winstone and Val Kilmer as striking this balance.

In terms of the business world I'm afraid I can't think of anybody. I just see Bill Cullen's manky head and his smug attitude and I want to box the ears off of him. Any business men I've ever worked for have been cold , greedy people also. One of them was actually dangerous , I saw him throw a chainsaw across a workshop floor , very successful business man though. Although there's bound to be the exception.

I think that the really successful business people have a certain makeup which predisposes them to lacking emphaty and behaving in a ruthless way if needs be. This coupled with the fact that non violent psychotic behaviour is generally rewarded amongst their peer group.

liah

OisinT wrote: »

I suppose I am saying a person who is not "nice" is someone who aggrandizes their own success by either putting someone else down or by profiting from the failure of others.

Fair enough, but imo still a bit unrealistic.

Every for-profit business profits from the failure of other businesses. That's how competition works, and tbh that's how human nature works. Where we have succeeded in something, someone else has failed.

Got a spot in university? Great! What about the person who doesn't get to go now? Are you selfish for taking the spot? I don't think so.

You have to put things into perspective. There's nothing wrong with being successful and there's nothing wrong with getting profit for hard work you put in.

The "nice" part comes into play through manners, ethics and morals moreso than success or failure. You're right in the first sense; a wealthy person going around throwing their wealth in other people's faces and treating everyone like peons obviously isn't nice. But I wouldn't call someone who owns a yacht and a supercar and a mansion in the Hamptons "not nice" just because they have chosen to spend their money-- it all comes down to their treatment of the people they encounter every day, not the objects they spend money on.

I'm also not a fan of judging how "nice" someone is based on whether or not they give to charity. Especially when you don't know the reasons why/why not. A lot of charities are set up as cover organizations for tax breaks, fraud, etc; just because they give to a charity doesn't mean it's a good one or that they're good people!

And just because they may not give doesn't mean they're bad people. They can help in other ways.

Celly Smunt

it's about being firm and fair,not being nice.

newmug

Being "nice" and being monetarily successful have absolutely no connection to each other. Being nice is about manners and morals, choosing to do something to make others feel good. Eg. doing that nagging bit of DIY for the missus, or treating your parents to a meal, purley out of spontaneous kindness. Being successful moneywise is 50% chance, 50% making the right decisions, backed by 1000% work. You can do all this without being an a$$hole.

But being successful at a personal level is all about having a clear conscience.

Scuid Mhór

listermint wrote: »

Bill Gates ?

bill gates did some bad things to get where he is.

jgr12

The first person who came to mind when I saw this was Paul Newman, with the Newmans own brand and the Hole in the Wall Gang Camps for sick children, Barretstown is one of them

newmug

jgr12 wrote: »

The first person who came to mind when I saw this was Paul Newman, with the Newmans own brand and the Hole in the Wall Gang Camps for sick children, Barretstown is one of them

From a legal perspective, Mary Robinson.

Gunsfortoys

Nice is nice but business is business. In work, to be successful you have to do above and beyond the call of duty to be successful and that means competing with others. However you absolutely cannot be an asshole about it as it ultimately leads to a downfall. Constructive is the key.

So in summary leave success at work and be civil in the real world.

Simples.