School homework has 'no real benefit'

metrovelvet

thebullkf wrote: »

kids need structure. they also need support and a learning environment.

the majority of irish people don't speak irish because its not spoken outside of school-its also a difficult language to learn.coupled with the fact that most irish parents dislike it due to their own experiences,thus creating a negative attachment to irish from the beginning.Gaeltacht kids speak it no bother.. why?.because its encouraged/re-inforced at home.

homework is fine if monitored,engaged with parents/guardians.
to say school dumbs you down is silly,ignorant and untrue.

Yes I agree. Learning environment. Not a bore me to death so I hate school environment.

iguana

thebullkf wrote: »

kids need structure. they also need support and a learning environment.

And yet children who go through montessori primaries tend to be significantly more advanced and confident than those who go through standard rote learning.

thebullkf wrote: »

to say school dumbs you down is silly,ignorant and untrue.

No it really, really isn't. I have an IQ in the 180s. I tested as having an adult mathematical and advanced adult literary ability at the age of 7. Both my younger brothers are similar. We were bored out of our minds in school, there was NO provision whatsoever to cater for any children who were anything other than average. I got in trouble over and over again for knowing things which my teachers did not. I wasn't a cheeky child, I loved learning and I was under the impression that teachers felt the same but after getting a 0 for writing that Jane Grey was the monarch of England after Edward VI instead of Mary I as the school book said and getting accused of making things up. Then of being insolent when I brought in my own history books to show the teacher I wasn't making it up, I realised at the age of 10 that school had fuçk all to do with learning and the best thing to do was to just play the game and go through the motions.

I had high, high hopes of secondary being different but that was dashed when it turned out that barely 5% of the teachers had any passion for their subject. Going off-curriculum was strictly verboten in most classes, even if doing so would have been a huge aid to learning, like the math/history collaboration I suggested earlier. I skated through school and lost all my own passion for the subjects I really, really loved.

I was in my late 20's before I rediscovered my love of history and in my 30s before my love of science came back. I'd give anything to have had a decent education either in a passionate school environment or just to have been left to my own devices. While my husband's health has meant that many of my life plans have changed and still could change in the next few years, including continuing on with starting a family. If things do go to plan our kids will be attending montessori until at least 12. I want them be able to continue their passions all their lives, nothing they could ever learn in a conventional school is more important than that.

thebullkf

while itsa robust and passionate defense of the previous claim made- it seems you are an exception to the rule.

iguana wrote: »

And yet children who go through montessori primaries tend to be significantly more advanced and confident than those who go through standard rote learning.

No it really, really isn't. I have an IQ in the 180s. I tested as having an adult mathematical and advanced adult literary ability at the age of 7. Both my younger brothers are similar.

I realised at the age of 10 that school had fuçk all to do with learning and the best thing to do was to just play the game and go through the motions.

for the majority of people the above statement is bollocks.

I had high, high hopes of secondary being different but that was dashed when it turned out that barely 5% of the teachers had any passion for their subject. Going off-curriculum was strictly verboten in most classes, even if doing so would have been a huge aid to learning, like the math/history collaboration I suggested earlier. I skated through school and lost all my own passion for the subjects I really, really loved.

lucky you. you were bored because you knew the answers.

I was in my late 20's before I rediscovered my love of history and in my 30s before my love of science came back. I'd give anything to have had a decent education either in a passionate school environment or just to have been left to my own devices. While my husband's health has meant that many of my life plans have changed and still could change in the next few years, including continuing on with starting a family. If things do go to plan our kids will be attending montessori until at least 12

things have changed since you were 7.who diagnosed your advanced skills?
its hardly the teachers fault that you were in the wrong class..i agree uniformity doesn't suit above average intelligence.unfortunatelythe majority of people are average.

I want them be able to continue their passions all their lives, nothing they could ever learn in a conventional school is more important than that.

i'm not saying that.

Fittle

bulk - you're getting quite argumentative and defensive about this issue - you must have had a negative experience of school, as many people have, but you have to 'get' that not everyones experience of primary school was bad.

I loved school. Loved getting up in the morning, loved locking myself in my bedroom to do my homework, loved essay writing.

In hindsight, and now that I'm an adult, I can see that my passion for school was a direct result of the madness that was going on in my home - school for me was an escape - but that's a whole other thread:rolleyes:

But back to topic - my son has already said to me (and it's only 4pm on a sunday) 'Mam, can we PLEASE not fight tomorrow at homework time...' which saddens me terribly:(

thebullkf

Fittle wrote: »

bulk - you're getting quite argumentative and defensive about this issue - you must have had a negative experience of school, as many people have, but you have to 'get' that not everyones experience of primary school was bad.

I loved school. Loved getting up in the morning, loved locking myself in my bedroom to do my homework, loved essay writing.

In hindsight, and now that I'm an adult, I can see that my passion for school was a direct result of the madness that was going on in my home - school for me was an escape - but that's a whole other thread:rolleyes:

But back to topic - my son has already said to me (and it's only 4pm on a sunday) 'Mam, can we PLEASE not fight tomorrow at homework time...' which saddens me terribly:(

eh... i'm the one supporting school in general and homework....where would you get the idea i'm not....

did you even read my posts?

Fittle

Funny enough, I did.

And your replies - including your one to me, are all in 'attack' mode. Your comment to iguana is an obvious attack on someone who found school easy, due to the fact that they were of a higher intelligence to their peers at that time.

So yes, I did read your posts.

Chaotic_Forces

Homework is a joke to be blunt. I'd have much more luck (with the exception of maths) with being told to study instead of "read book, copy answers, get an A".

I always thought the basic idea of homework was so that parents could see their kids doing it and be "happy" but it really has very little going for it.

Of course, most people will argue it helps people learn but so does studying since you are actually learning.

I never once had to learn anything that we didn't learn in class from homework (with the exception of reading a book for English or trying to work out simple poems and then we'd discuss them in class).

Fittle wrote: »

But back to topic - my son has already said to me (and it's only 4pm on a sunday) 'Mam, can we PLEASE not fight tomorrow at homework time...' which saddens me terribly:(

Uh, what's the problem that causes the fights? Sorry but I must not have seen your post that mentioned it if you did mention it.

thebullkf

Fittle wrote: »

Funny enough, I did.

your one to me, are all in 'attaAnd your replies - includingck' mode. Your comment to iguana is an obvious attack on someone who found school easy, due to the fact that they were of a higher intelligence to their peers at that time.

So yes, I did read your posts.

how could you misconstrue what i said,to turn it into attack??

your intepretation is the problem my dear.i haven't attacked anyone-i was being serious when i said lucky you.it wasn't sarcasm.if it was i would've used this icon :rolleyes:.
i didn't.

thebullkf

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Homework is a joke to be blunt. I'd have much more luck (with the exception of maths) with being told to study instead of "read book, copy answers, get an A".

doesn't apply to a lot of subjects. eg english.
or where you're asked for your intepretation,view.

I always thought the basic idea of homework was so that parents could see their kids doing it and be "happy" but it really has very little going for it.[/QUOTE]

funny enough now it was never like that in our house.

Of course, most people will argue it helps people learn but so does studying since you are actually learning.

homework is a form of study...its revision of sorts.

I never once had to learn anything that we didn't learn in class from homework (with the exception of reading a book for English or trying to work out simple poems and then we'd discuss them in class).

homework is a chance to reinforce what you learned, not as a seperate,stand alone learning tool generally.

Ickle Magoo

Other than as a tool for lazy parents to gauge where their children are academically, I don't think homework has any real use. Children with supportive and interested parents will foster learning and encourage development and those without won't - with or without homework.

Iguana, I agree. I could read and write fluently when I went started school and my parents got hauled into the principles office and were told to stop me learning at home - they hadn't actually made any serious effort to teach me so were baffled at what they school expected them to do about it. Schools for the most part are a compulsory conveyor-belt of spoon fed liberal-learning, that in 2010 governments should have to budget for school leavers literacy issues at one end and talented students bored to death leaving at the first opportunity at the other is testament to how bad a system it actually is.

Chaotic_Forces

thebullkf wrote: »

doesn't apply to a lot of subjects. eg english.
or where you're asked for your intepretation,view.



I always thought the basic idea of homework was so that parents could see their kids doing it and be "happy" but it really has very little going for it.

funny enough now it was never like that in our house.



homework is a form of study...its revision of sorts.



homework is a chance to reinforce what you learned, not as a seperate,stand alone learning tool generally.[/QUOTE]

Actually homework was practiaclly useless to me. I was told before for the leaving Cert (in sixth year by a "professional") that the entire class should start around 4 hours of studying per day, working up to about six hours a weekday and 8 on a weekend day.

My response was to ask "that include homework?"
"no, that's seperate".
To which my reply was "so six hours per day + homework when some of us have to get up at six am and get back by about 5pm, that's your suggestion".
It shut her right up.

Point is; homework is not useful at all. Beyond the practical measures of doing math problems or something like that; you're just copying and writing. regardless of how you look at it. Yes some students like it; yes some put in great effort but at the end of the day you could just waltz through most classes of homework and still fail the tests unless you study.

Personally it's a joke to me since I think being told to study and being tested is much more effective than copying from a book.

Oh and don't quote my post bit by bit; read the whole thing then do the quoting (you'd have seen that I made mention of it having use for English at the end), thanks.

Fittle

thebullkf wrote: »

how could you misconstrue what i said,to turn it into attack??

your intepretation is the problem my dear.i haven't attacked anyone-i was being serious when i said lucky you.it wasn't sarcasm.if it was i would've used this icon :rolleyes:.
i didn't.

I'm not your 'dear'.

I agree with you ickle magoo - schools are a compulsory part of life that most certainly don't do what they're supposed to do. My son spent last year bullied into submission by the most horrible teacher i have ever had the displeasure to meet (including my own 4th class teacher!!!), and moved into 3rd class having learned nothing other than fear,in his previous year.

And that was all because of the personality of his 2nd class teacher.

I don't know the solution though - but as I said before, if there was someone who would get rid of homework, or place less importance on it, I'd be all for it.

Chaotic_Forces

Fittle wrote: »

I'm not your 'dear'.

I agree with you ickle magoo - schools are a compulsory part of life that most certainly don't do what they're supposed to do. My son spent last year bullied into submission by the most horrible teacher i have ever had the displeasure to meet (including my own 4th class teacher!!!), and moved into 3rd class having learned nothing other than fear,in his previous year.

And that was all because of the personality of his 2nd class teacher.

I don't know the solution though - but as I said before, if there was someone who would get rid of homework, or place less importance on it, I'd be all for it.

Listen, if your son is having that many problems with bullying teachers; say something. Or at the least go to one of those parent teacher meeting thingy and mention it there that you're worried over some of the teachers in the school.

Fittle

It was last year chaotic, and I did say something, and it was 'sorted', although I think she should have been fired.

She's still there though, and has now moved on to bullying the 5th class kids. Already, two parents have taken official complaints against her.


Honestly, if ever a woman was not suited to a job, it's her.

You have no idea the stuff we went through with her last year - but thankfully, much, much better teacher this year so it's all good, but thanks for advice:)

But this is one of the things that I feel is inherently wrong with school in general - the personality of the teacher and whether she likes, or doesn't like your child. I know as a mother myself, there are children I don't like. And children I like. But then I'm not a schoolteacher. So while they are entitled to have an opinion of the children they teach, they aren't entitled to take it out on that child.

Chaotic_Forces

Fittle wrote: »

It was last year chaotic, and I did say something, and it was 'sorted', although I think she should have been fired.

She's still there though, and has now moved on to bullying the 5th class kids. Already, two parents have taken official complaints against her.


Honestly, if ever a woman was not suited to a job, it's her.

You have no idea the stuff we went through with her last year - but thankfully, much, much better teacher this year so it's all good, but thanks for advice:)

But this is one of the things that I feel is inherently wrong with school in general - the personality of the teacher and whether she likes, or doesn't like your child. I know as a mother myself, there are children I don't like. And children I like. But then I'm not a schoolteacher. So while they are entitled to have an opinion of the children they teach, they aren't entitled to take it out on that child.

In secondary school there were a few teachers I didn't exactly "get on with", turns out one of thme left to go on a few years break or something... so we got a new teacher. Suddenly within the space of a month I was able to do aswell as the other kids.

Sometimes it's not that the teacher is a bad person; just a horrible teacher.
I've seen plently of students complain about a few teachers and because the teacher is very nice to the parents and whatnot; nobody gives a damn.

I am very glad to hear your son is doing better, though.

I don't think it matters if someone dislikes the child; it matters if they're well... "mean" enough to actually treat the child badly compared to others. Like I said above, I just never got on with some teachers, we didn't like each other at all. But we generally had a kind of silent respect. They knew I wouldn't step out of line and I knew there was no point in trying to cause trouble so it was a nice way to be.

But yes; I agree completely. Teacher or not, nobody should go out of there way to hurt someone else.

thebullkf

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

funny enough now it was never like that in our house.



homework is a form of study...its revision of sorts.



homework is a chance to reinforce what you learned, not as a seperate,stand alone learning tool generally.

Actually homework was practiaclly useless to me. I was told before for the leaving Cert (in sixth year by a "professional") that the entire class should start around 4 hours of studying per day, working up to about six hours a weekday and 8 on a weekend day.

My response was to ask "that include homework?"
"no, that's seperate".
To which my reply was "so six hours per day + homework when some of us have to get up at six am and get back by about 5pm, that's your suggestion".
It shut her right up.

Point is; homework is not useful at all. Beyond the practical measures of doing math problems or something like that; you're just copying and writing. regardless of how you look at it. Yes some students like it; yes some put in great effort but at the end of the day you could just waltz through most classes of homework and still fail the tests unless you study.

Personally it's a joke to me since I think being told to study and being tested is much more effective than copying from a book.

Oh and don't quote my post bit by bit; read the whole thing then do the quoting (you'd have seen that I made mention of it having use for English at the end), thanks. [/QUOTE]



i did. and i did:)

thebullkf

Fittle wrote: »

I'm not your 'dear'.

I agree with you ickle magoo - schools are a compulsory part of life that most certainly don't do what they're supposed to do. My son spent last year bullied into submission by the most horrible teacher i have ever had the displeasure to meet (including my own 4th class teacher!!!), and moved into 3rd class having learned nothing other than fear,in his previous year.

And that was all because of the personality of his 2nd class teacher.

I don't know the solution though - but as I said before, if there was someone who would get rid of homework, or place less importance on it, I'd be all for it.

ok, i wasn't being patronising. you still haven't answered my questions?

thebullkf

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Other than as a tool for lazy parents to gauge where their children are academically, I don't think homework has any real use. Children with supportive and interested parents will foster learning and encourage development and those without won't - with or without homework.

Iguana, I agree. I could read and write fluently when I went started school and my parents got hauled into the principles office and were told to stop me learning at home - they hadn't actually made any serious effort to teach me so were baffled at what they school expected them to do about it. Schools for the most part are a compulsory conveyor-belt of spoon fed liberal-learning, that in 2010 governments should have to budget for school leavers literacy issues at one end and talented students bored to death leaving at the first opportunity at the other is testament to how bad a system it actually is.

i disagree totally.

it enables practice of what was done that day,gives kids a sense of responsibility,encourages time management. it encourages hard work and fosters independance and most importantly its one on one time wth your child.




what age did you start school?...

Chaotic_Forces

thebullkf wrote: »

Actually homework was practiaclly useless to me. I was told before for the leaving Cert (in sixth year by a "professional") that the entire class should start around 4 hours of studying per day, working up to about six hours a weekday and 8 on a weekend day.

My response was to ask "that include homework?"
"no, that's seperate".
To which my reply was "so six hours per day + homework when some of us have to get up at six am and get back by about 5pm, that's your suggestion".
It shut her right up.

Point is; homework is not useful at all. Beyond the practical measures of doing math problems or something like that; you're just copying and writing. regardless of how you look at it. Yes some students like it; yes some put in great effort but at the end of the day you could just waltz through most classes of homework and still fail the tests unless you study.

Personally it's a joke to me since I think being told to study and being tested is much more effective than copying from a book.

Oh and don't quote my post bit by bit; read the whole thing then do the quoting (you'd have seen that I made mention of it having use for English at the end), thanks.

i did. and i did:)[/QUOTE]

What?

thebullkf

i did. and i did:)

What?

in answer to your question.

i read your entire post.

then i quoted:)

Chaotic_Forces

thebullkf wrote: »

What?

in answer to your question.

i read your entire post.

then i quoted:)[/QUOTE]

You need to learn how to use the quote thing...

thesimpsons

I'm so surprised at the variety of answers here compared to my own experiences with teachers and homework with my kids. I must have either been incredibly lucky with the teachers who taught my kids or else its something to do with myself and partner's own views on education. We have only had one very minor run in with a teacher and thats having gone through 3 kids in primary (so thats actually 24 different teachers) and even now in secondary we haven't had any problems. Never once did they have anything they or I considered as pointless homework apart from the obligatory colouring-in which alot of infants don't like but which does help teach skills on its own. I cannot believe that anyone thinks that homework is valueless. It reinforces things taught in school, it teachs time management skills, teaches the kids to be responsible for bringing home the correct books and copies, to complete the homework, shows parents what stage the child is in school. We've had so much fun and learning with the 3 of them in primary level in helping to build stone age villages, igloos, mega monsters, projects on how a camera works, Italy, Space Shuttle, etc. Homework is vital for moving forward to secondary school and college where larger levels of homework are expected and required to cover the courses.

Chaotic_Forces

thesimpsons wrote: »

I'm so surprised at the variety of answers here compared to my own experiences with teachers and homework with my kids. I must have either been incredibly lucky with the teachers who taught my kids or else its something to do with myself and partner's own views on education. We have only had one very minor run in with a teacher and thats having gone through 3 kids in primary (so thats actually 24 different teachers) and even now in secondary we haven't had any problems. Never once did they have anything they or I considered as pointless homework apart from the obligatory colouring-in which alot of infants don't like but which does help teach skills on its own. I cannot believe that anyone thinks that homework is valueless. It reinforces things taught in school, it teachs time management skills, teaches the kids to be responsible for bringing home the correct books and copies, to complete the homework, shows parents what stage the child is in school. We've had so much fun and learning with the 3 of them in primary level in helping to build stone age villages, igloos, mega monsters, projects on how a camera works, Italy, Space Shuttle, etc. Homework is vital for moving forward to secondary school and college where larger levels of homework are expected and required to cover the courses.

Except it shouldn't be needed.

See, the average day is about six hours. In second year to sixth (with the exception of fourth year) you got too much homework to make up for the lack of the teaching ability. I know it's hard to accept but a good teacher shouldn't have to give an hour's worth of homework just so they can feel like they've done something.

The worse part is doing the damn homework and then finding out... oh the teacher didn't pick to give answer and just assumes I know it. Constantly happens. The funny thing is that if students actually expected a teacher to spend as much time correcting all the student's homework as the average time it takes (say the average is an hour) the teacher would laugh and explain "oh I have too many things to do, just make sure you read the book though and you'll be fine".
That's the problem with homework; teachers not using it to help the students. It's nothing more than saying "do this essay, I'm gonna read the paper", thanks.

Ickle Magoo

thebullkf wrote: »

i disagree totally.

it enables practice of what was done that day,gives kids a sense of responsibility,encourages time management. it encourages hard work and fosters independance and most importantly its one on one time wth your child.

You may disagree if you wish, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

Homework doesn't encourage hard work or foster independence or give a sense of responsibility or encourage time management - unless enforced by the parent/s and it's only one on one time with children whose parents bother doing the homework with them - which is entirely my point, nothing you describe above is given by homework, it's given by dutiful parents who would pass on such life skills regardless of the volume of homework given.

thebullkf wrote: »

what age did you start school?...

Does my age starting school somehow negate the point I'm making? I was five - that's about average for school age, isn't it?

I also work in adult education and with many people failed utterly by the current irish education system - ranging in age from 18 - 65. Depressingly you'd be astonished how little has changed.

thebullkf

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

in answer to your question.

i read your entire post.

then i quoted:)

You need to learn how to use the quote thing...

tks for the smug reply.

Chaotic_Forces

thebullkf wrote: »

tks for the smug reply.

You're welcome but seriously; stop saying I quoted things that I didn't!

thesimpsons

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

) you got too much homework to make up for the lack of the teaching ability. I know it's hard to accept but a good teacher shouldn't have to give an hour's worth of homework just so they can feel like they've done something.

QUOTE]

if a teachers sets the class to read a chapter at night so that it can be discussed the next day - how is that a lack of teaching ability. If a teacher teaches a set of grammar rules during the day and then asks they be gone over and learned at night - how is that a lack of teaching abiility ?? While agreeing that some teachers are perhaps taking the easy way out and rather than teaching during the day they just fire out the homework, I firmly believe that there are many great teachers also out there and that homework is a vital part of education system.

thebullkf

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

You're welcome but seriously; stop saying I quoted things that I didn't!

ditto....:)

you've quoted me twice thereand inever typed either of them

Chaotic_Forces

thesimpsons wrote: »

if a teachers sets the class to read a chapter at night so that it can be discussed the next day - how is that a lack of teaching ability. If a teacher teaches a set of grammar rules during the day and then asks they be gone over and learned at night - how is that a lack of teaching abiility ?? While agreeing that some teachers are perhaps taking the easy way out and rather than teaching during the day they just fire out the homework, I firmly believe that there are many great teachers also out there and that homework is a vital part of education system.

I meant things like "do this chapter and answer the questions". Then in class you have the teacher giving you the answers and not bothering to check on the work. It's a joke really.

Of course there are needs for certain homework (math work, reading and so on) but let's face it: do questions and answers is something that is taking the easy way out.l

thebullkf wrote: »

ditto....:)

you've quoted me twice thereand inever typed either of them

What ones?

thebullkf

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You may disagree if you wish, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

Homework doesn't encourage hard work or foster independence or give a sense of responsibility or encourage time management - unless enforced by the parent/s and it's only one on one time with children whose parents bother doing the homework with them - which is entirely my point, nothing you describe above is given by homework, it's given by dutiful parents who would pass on such life skills regardless of the volume of homework
given.

its enforced by the teachers. then when the kids/parents don't bother,teachers are blamed.


homework gives all of the above.

Does my age starting school somehow negate the point I'm making? I was five - that's about average for school age, isn't it?

ofcourse it doesn't, why would you think i meant that?
you were literate @ that age... miles ahead of everyone else.

I also work in adult education and with many people failed utterly by the current irish education system - ranging in age from 18 - 65. Depressingly you'd be astonished how little has changed.

i'm involved in similar, i can tell you the majority of problems are home based.ignorant parents breeding ignorant kids.
i still see kids dropping into pubs to collect money off their "parents"for dinner money.
these kids have exceptional survival skills but alas no social skills...sorry going off topic.

my last post here. homework is a vital cog in every childs learning wheel.

fact.