School homework has 'no real benefit'

thebullkf

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I meant things like "do this chapter and answer the questions". Then in class you have the teacher giving you the answers and not bothering to check on the work. It's a joke really.

Of course there are needs for certain homework (math work, reading and so on) but let's face it: do questions and answers is something that is taking the easy way out.l



What ones?

the WHAT? comment.

and the "actually homework was pretty useless to me....." post..

Chaotic_Forces

thebullkf wrote: »

the WHAT? comment.

and the "actually homework was pretty useless to me....." post..

PM me them so we don't throw the thread off-topic, thanks.

thesimpsons

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I meant things like "do this chapter and answer the questions". Then in class you have the teacher giving you the answers and not bothering to check on the work. It's a joke really.

Of course there are needs for certain homework (math work, reading and so on) but let's face it: do questions and answers is something that is taking the easy way out.l



What ones?

quite a few questions in Jnr and Leaving Cert are comprehension ones (History, geog, languages, science) where you have to read a set passage and then answer questions, so plenty of experience in reading a chapter and answering questions is required to extract the right info. I don't agree in the least with teachers not correcting homework, that in my mind is total disrespect for the student and respect has to work both ways. Not correcting homework would be a major issue for me.

thebullkf

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

PM me them so we don't throw the thread off-topic, thanks.

posts 77,80,82:)

Chaotic_Forces

thesimpsons wrote: »

quite a few questions in Jnr and Leaving Cert are comprehension ones (History, geog, languages, science) where you have to read a set passage and then answer questions, so plenty of experience in reading a chapter and answering questions is required to extract the right info. I don't agree in the least with teachers not correcting homework, that in my mind is total disrespect for the student and respect has to work both ways. Not correcting homework would be a major issue for me.

True, but should it not be enough that they do it in class? Where the teacher can correct it and they can actively seek help?

Ickle Magoo

thebullkf wrote: »

its enforced by the teachers. then when the kids/parents don't bother,teachers are blamed.


homework gives all of the above.

It's HOMEwork, I'm not sure how it could possibly be enforced by teachers or what blame has to do with the issue of whether homework has any real benefits. It certainly has perceived benefits as you've demonstrated amply but you still haven't made a convincing argument that it is the homework that provides such learning and not the parents.

thebullkf wrote: »

ofcourse it doesn't, why would you think i meant that?
you were literate @ that age... miles ahead of everyone else.

I wasn't sure of the relevance of the question or if you were just satisfying curiosity.

thebullkf wrote: »

i'm involved in similar, i can tell you the majority of problems are home based.ignorant parents breeding ignorant kids.
i still see kids dropping into pubs to collect money off their "parents"for dinner money.
these kids have exceptional survival skills but alas no social skills...sorry going off topic.

my last post here. homework is a vital cog in every childs learning wheel.

fact.

Again, you are echoing my sentiments - problems are home-based and homework is....?

Not fact. Opinion. Quite different. There is no consensus among parents or professionals, in fact professionals would be veering towards the lack of benefits, especially in primary eduction - so it would be quite disingenuous to suggest your own personal beliefs are fact.

thebullkf

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's HOMEwork, I'm not sure how it could possibly be enforced by teachers or what blame has to do with the issue of whether homework has any real benefits. It certainly has perceived benefits as you've demonstrated amply but you still haven't made a convincing argument that it is the homework that provides such learning and not the parents.- in your opinion.


ever get detention?



I wasn't sure of the relevance of the question or if you were just satisfying curiosity.



Again, you are echoing my sentiments - problems are home-based and homework is....?

Not fact. Opinion. Quite different. There is no consensus among parents or professionals, in fact professionals would be veering towards the lack of benefits, especially in primary eduction - so it would be quite disingenuous to suggest your own personal beliefs are fact.

who does all work when you're in college?

the student.

how can one possibly cope without the aforementioned skills demonstrated by completing homework,assighments on a regular basis??


really i'm astounded that so many people don't believe in the benefits of homework.
lets agree to disagree.

i could link you to harvard studies on the merits of homework.
as i'm sure you could link to somesuch debunking it.

you ain't gonna change your mind.

neither am i.

good night:)

Ickle Magoo

I don't understand what detention has to do with making homework beneficial either. If pupils can't or don't do the homework because of their home environment then punishing them for that just creates a greater gulf and more resentment and blocks to learning. It's completely self-defeating for all but those who have the luxury of educated and involved parents.

Again, the majority of people who go on to third level education do so because their parents instilled in them a positive view of learning and because they attained sufficient results because the learning style in schools suits them/they have sufficient intelligence to regurgitate the information spoon fed to them. It has nothing to do with the level of homework they received. Anyone relying on their homework experience to help them complete a thesis is going to be in for a rude awakening.

I'm not sure why you equate homework with third level study as if a Phd would be unthinkable without having ever received homework - which I'm sure you agree is a ridiculous notion. If some pupils reach third level education despite their parents lack of help and support dependent on their classroom learning and others because their parents were a constant support and drive in and out the classroom then you must see homework is incidental to the process.

Fittle

Look, tomorrow nite between 6 and 7, when my lad realises he has (again) forgotten a workbook or a copy...and i start saying 'But why...why did you forget this copy again...' and he begins to cry and asks me to write a note so that he doesn't get into trouble with teacher tomorrow...and when I get stressed and raise my voice at him...... and when he begs me to go in and chat to teacher so he doesn't get into trouble...and we inevitably (at 2 minutes to seven) decide that homework is now done, having shed one (or other) of our tears...............................................................NONE OF THIS is preparing him for college.

metrovelvet

Fittle wrote: »

Look, tomorrow nite between 6 and 7, when my lad realises he has (again) forgotten a workbook or a copy...and i start saying 'But why...why did you forget this copy again...' and he begins to cry and asks me to write a note so that he doesn't get into trouble with teacher tomorrow...and when I get stressed and raise my voice at him...... and when he begs me to go in and chat to teacher so he doesn't get into trouble...and we inevitably (at 2 minutes to seven) decide that homework is now done, having shed one (or other) of our tears...............................................................NONE OF THIS is preparing him for college.

I dont get this copy book situation. Cant you get him one bigger notebook with dividers in it so that it's all in one place. Or just ONE book for homework.

Oh... my other complaint about homework...they should not be sending kids home with 30 lbs of books on their backs.

Fittle

Unfortunately, in our school anyhow,the parents dont get to dictate the copy book situation. There are copies for every subject. PLUS there are workbooks for every subject. Copies have to be kept seperate. And on the nights the homework needs to be done in the copy, the workbook inevitably ends up coming home and vice versa:(

And as I said above, they get 15 minutes or less to write down the homework and pick the right books to bring home....

metrovelvet

Fittle wrote: »

Unfortunately, in our school anyhow,the parents dont get to dictate the copy book situation. There are copies for every subject. PLUS there are workbooks for every subject. Copies have to be kept seperate. And on the nights the homework needs to be done in the copy, the workbook inevitably ends up coming home and vice versa:(

And as I said above, they get 15 minutes or less to write down the homework and pick the right books to bring home....

I think you'll have to make a stink about this. ONE homework notebook with sections. That's it. They can suck it up.

thesimpsons

Fittle wrote: »

Look, tomorrow nite between 6 and 7, when my lad realises he has (again) forgotten a workbook or a copy...and i start saying 'But why...why did you forget this copy again...' and he begins to cry and asks me to write a note so that he doesn't get into trouble with teacher tomorrow...and when I get stressed and raise my voice at him...... and when he begs me to go in and chat to teacher so he doesn't get into trouble...and we inevitably (at 2 minutes to seven) decide that homework is now done, having shed one (or other) of our tears...............................................................NONE OF THIS is preparing him for college.

I might be wrong but I think you said your son is in 3rd class - thats more than half way through primary school. When is he going to learn to bring home the right stuff though, its something he has to learn for himself. If all the other kids in the class manage to write down the homework and get the books in order in the 15 mins, does your lad need to organise his time better. If he continues to forget books and you continue to write notes for him, is he going to continue into secondary in the same manner. If he gets this right now at early age its obviously preparing him for college. He won't go far in college with getting the wrong lectures notes downloaded, forgetting to hand in essays, etc. Also, when he forgets a copy, have you checked to see if teacher will accept the answers on a page which can then be stuck into the correct copy, at least then the homework is being done and an effort has been made and he has learned to find a solution to a problem. Another option could also be to take away something until he learns to check his books before he leaves the class. Losing a treat for a few days might be incentive for him to check.

Fittle

thesimpsons wrote: »

I might be wrong but I think you said your son is in 3rd class - thats more than half way through primary school. When is he going to learn to bring home the right stuff though, its something he has to learn for himself. If all the other kids in the class manage to write down the homework and get the books in order in the 15 mins, does your lad need to organise his time better. If he continues to forget books and you continue to write notes for him, is he going to continue into secondary in the same manner. If he gets this right now at early age its obviously preparing him for college. He won't go far in college with getting the wrong lectures notes downloaded, forgetting to hand in essays, etc. Also, when he forgets a copy, have you checked to see if teacher will accept the answers on a page which can then be stuck into the correct copy, at least then the homework is being done and an effort has been made and he has learned to find a solution to a problem. Another option could also be to take away something until he learns to check his books before he leaves the class. Losing a treat for a few days might be incentive for him to check.

I get your point.

But he's one of about ten lads in the same class with the same problems at the moment. And he's lost many a treat due to forgetting a book/copy.

So he's not alone....if she'd even give them another five minutes, it would make a huge difference I imagine.

And when he forgets a copy, we normally just do it on a page and send that in....but it's the worrying he does in case he gets into trouble because of the page.

Look I'm sure this will sort itself sooner rather than later.

I think I mentioned earlier that another one of my issues in primary is the lack of work they do in 2nd class due to holy communion - then there's this massive jump in third class. Seriously, there's very little academic stuff in 2nd class....

mariaalice

I think the actual content of the homework is perhaps unimportant, but the discipline of doing the homework is very important.

If a child dose not do any home work in primary school how are they going to start start studying in secondary school?....by the time they are in 6th year they will have to do something like 3 hours study each evening.

thesimpsons

how about you get a few of the other parents to support you in a meeting with the teacher, no ranting and raving, just a calm discussion about the timings. If he's already doing the work on a page then I'd say continue to encourage him that he's doing a good thing by doing this rather than getting annoyed with him. When he gets to tears stage, try best to stay calm - hopefully it'll all just click with him one day.

as I've said earlier though I'm surprised at the variety of teaching in schools. mine have all gone through communion and confirmation (2 in a convent school) and have to honestly say they didn't spend the whole year on it, the last week they kinda lived in the church alright but not much more than that. However, that could be an issue between the school and the local church rather than the individual teacher.

Have you seen your school's homework policy - they have to have one. Many of them will give the lenghts of time expected to be spent on homework and if a child exceeds the time, the parent can stop homework and sign the journal with the length of time stated.

Ronald Sherrif

Homework doe by a parent is not homework at all. I always found homework a chore and hated it. I think it chokes the fun out of learning. The only concievable benefit I can see in it is retention. If a person reviews something one within the hour, once within the day, once within the week and onve within the month they will supposedly retain 75% of it.
Motivated students find the time to study. The habit will build up very quickly. Of more importance are proper techniques. Asking your mother the answer tio a maths question is not a proper technique.

iguana

mariaalice wrote: »

If a child dose not do any home work in primary school how are they going to start start studying in secondary school?....by the time they are in 6th year they will have to do something like 3 hours study each evening.

Because if they are schooled properly they will enjoy studying. Learning won't be a mandatory activity but a relished one.

mariaalice

I don't know but i have to say i have never come across a teenager who want to to study the amount that the school recommends...what i find is they want to spend time studying things they are good at and are not so keen on thing they find hard or they have to work at.

But yes in an ideal world children would would love the subjects they do.

Nevyn

Fittle if you have an issue with a poster or a post please report the posts.
thebullkf had been given a weeks time out, until they learn to interact better with other posters
and not derail threads.

Can people please learn to sort quotes properly
the code used is [noparse]

poster wrote:

something they said

[/noparse]

Chaotic_Forces

mariaalice wrote: »

I don't know but i have to say i have never come across a teenager who want to to study the amount that the school recommends...what i find is they want to spend time studying things they are good at and are not so keen on thing they find hard or they have to work at.

But yes in an ideal world children would would love the subjects they do.

The school I went to told me to study a total of 6-8 hours per day for my leaving cert...

Let's just add all that up: Get up at seven (I lived only a bus ride away), leave at 8, go to school about 8:30 and school starts about 8:45, you get 40 minutes breaks altogether for about 7 hours work, leave school about 3:30 and get home by about 4. Now do six hours of studying and then your homework and sleep about midnight...

Now add in an extra two hours (to school and back home, hour each) for studetns who have to get two buses or live further and we get a grand total of: 5 hours sleep per night.

With things like that, it's no wonder kids hate homework.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You may disagree if you wish, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

Homework doesn't encourage hard work or foster independence or give a sense of responsibility or encourage time management - unless enforced by the parent/s and it's only one on one time with children whose parents bother doing the homework with them - which is entirely my point, nothing you describe above is given by homework, it's given by dutiful parents who would pass on such life skills regardless of the volume of homework given.



Does my age starting school somehow negate the point I'm making? I was five - that's about average for school age, isn't it?

I also work in adult education and with many people failed utterly by the current irish education system - ranging in age from 18 - 65. Depressingly you'd be astonished how little has changed.

I went to third level and post grad despite my education, not because of it.

If there was no education ethic at home, forget it.

iguana

mariaalice wrote: »

I don't know but i have to say i have never come across a teenager who want to to study the amount that the school recommends...what i find is they want to spend time studying things they are good at and are not so keen on thing they find hard or they have to work at.

That's because of the crappy state of the education system. If a little common sense was applied to schooling and subjects were sensibly interlinked children/teenagers would learn to appreciate a vast array of subjects. A student who loves history would learn to enjoy maths if they were encouraged to look at how maths was utilised throughout history and what achievements came about because of this and vice-versa for math loving students.

The same is true for most subjects. It's an untapped goldmine; genetics and genealogy, the effects of The Columbian Exchange on economics, health, micro-biology, climate, cookery, political policy, sociology, farming and animal husbandry. Most subjects are fascinating if approached correctly.

Orizio

Fittle wrote: »

Could you expand on that a little?

Superstition? I don't spend any amount of time indoctrinating my young child in superstition as far as I'm aware...
And superficial spirituality is what exactly

See The Roman Catholic Church and Monotheism.

Deliverance

iguana wrote: »

That's because of the crappy state of the education system. If a little common sense was applied to schooling and subjects were sensibly interlinked children/teenagers would learn to appreciate a vast array of subjects. A student who loves history would learn to enjoy maths if they were encouraged to look at how maths was utilised throughout history and what achievements came about because of this and vice-versa for math loving students.

The same is true for most subjects. It's an untapped goldmine; genetics and genealogy, the effects of The Columbian Exchange on economics, health, micro-biology, climate, cookery, political policy, sociology, farming and animal husbandry. Most subjects are fascinating if approached correctly.

Totally agree iguana. Very intelligent posts by your good self. All we need now are people in the system with the education and courage to make these changes. In time I imagine that this will happen over time.

I suppose it is a slow process due to it's overall nature of being a big change that is national. It takes time to turn a big ship around. The system is something to behold and intimidating, it will take smalll iterative steps by smart experienced impassioned people to make these changes over time.

I think that this is happening in the education system in general. But it is frustrating at the same time to say the least for thinkers of our time to see it happening so slowly.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Other than as a tool for lazy parents to gauge where their children are academically, I don't think homework has any real use. Children with supportive and interested parents will foster learning and encourage development and those without won't - with or without homework.

Iguana, I agree. I could read and write fluently when I went started school and my parents got hauled into the principles office and were told to stop me learning at home - they hadn't actually made any serious effort to teach me so were baffled at what they school expected them to do about it. Schools for the most part are a compulsory conveyor-belt of spoon fed liberal-learning, that in 2010 governments should have to budget for school leavers literacy issues at one end and talented students bored to death leaving at the first opportunity at the other is testament to how bad a system it actually is.

They need to acknowledge that other kinds of students have 'special needs.'

I went into school bilingual, reading and writing in two languages, was given all sorts of national tests which diagnosed me with adult level logic and literacy, top percentile maths, and I am convinced I came out of school dumber than when I went in. On top of that, the boredom of six hours a day of wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah led to a frustrated child who began truancy at five, found by police wandering around playgrounds.

My mother was in a state of despair. It was torture for everyone.

My son has started a couple of days of montessori at the nearby creche. The staff there have told me that local primary school teachers have made complaints and requests that they stop teaching the kids so much because when they come into primary school they already know too much and are bored.

Is this a national strategy to hold back the nation? What the hell?

Ickle Magoo

That any school would seek to dumb down their pupils and promote mediocrity is just astonishing...thankfully my parents moved us to another school but as you say, those that don't have the benefit of parents that are prepared to go to the school and fight or move areas if need be are on a hiding to nothing. I often wonder the waste of intellect squandered before the poor kids have even hit high school.

I have heard those comments about pre-school setting kids up for boredom as well - there is something seriously wrong with an education system that envisages kids just in the door being bored for having attending pre-school, something that's widely done in the rest of the west and yet still manages to spew 1 in 4 pupils with literacy and/or numeracy issues out the other end. :mad:

Chaotic_Forces

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That any school would seek to dumb down their pupils and promote mediocrity is just astonishing...thankfully my parents moved us to another school but as you say, those that don't have the benefit of parents that are prepared to go to the school and fight or move areas if need be are on a hiding to nothing. I often wonder the waste of intellect squandered before the poor kids have even hit high school.

I have heard those comments about pre-school setting kids up for boredom as well - there is something seriously wrong with an education system that envisages kids just in the door being bored for having attending pre-school, something that's widely done in the rest of the west and yet still manages to spew 1 in 4 pupils with literacy and/or numeracy issues out the other end. :mad:

Well put it this way: what's easier for everyone; educating teachers more so they can better educate children or just stop the children getting a good education?

mariaalice

I think this has wandered off the point a little...its an interesting topic...maybe the way schools and education are set up and delivered doesn't work for a some people....my oldest daughter wasn't the slighter bit academic at school she struggled with maths a lot... but she loved school and got involved in lot of things charity work, plays, carol singing, sport, she made great friends...despite not being academic she became a nurse she had to go to the uk to do it as she did foundation maths in her leaving...i always thing if she could do it anyone could do it....the thing is she got a lot encouragement and support from me and her dad and a lot of finical support as well so she was lucky to have us as parents:D

Despite the torment of doing homework with her when she was in primary school i still think children should have some homework.

Chaotic_Forces

mariaalice wrote: »

I think this has wandered off the point a little...its an interesting topic...maybe the way schools and education are set up and delivered doesn't work for a some people....my oldest daughter wasn't the slighter bit academic at school she struggled with maths a lot... but she stilled loved school and got involved in lot of things charity work, plays, carol singing, sport, she made great friends...despite not being academic she became a nurse she had to go to the uk to do it as she did foundation maths in her leaving...i always thing if she could do it anyone could do it....the thing is she got a lot encouragement and support from me and her dad and a lot of finical support as well so she was lucky to have us as parents:D

Despite the torment of doing homework with her when she was in primary school i still think children should have some homework.

Some homework is great. There was nothing like doing an essay or something and having feedback from a teacher on what was good and not good.

But things like "read page 3-4, answer questions, go away now and I'll pick 5 students to answer them tomorrow and not bother seeing if anyone else was right or wrong" is very disheartening.

There was often a reason I put much more work into Irish or English than other subjects; because good teachers give you homework and correct it and help you. Or at least they should.

If I'm just going to hand out a few questions and not bother to even correct them for everyone; why should anyone look forward to doing them?